Project 818 Design Submissions

[RM1SepEx]

I'll have to see how this compares to my earlier attempts, looks comparable at first glance.

I have no idea how FFR will decide to construct the floor, a floor which will have to support an adjustable seat on street models. My Template-3 allowed for 2" of structure, assumed 1-1/2" steel tube supporting an inlaid tube flush with bottom side frame, and 1/2" or 1/4" of perhaps honeycomb panel for a flush aerodynamic under-belly of car. If they use steel angles in lieu of tubes for seat support for the rails, then it could be lower, right? Heck, now that I think about it, a simple steel plate about 24"x24" under each person welded to the tubes would do, not sure about the weight though.

For reference the Lotus Eagle/Evora drawing showed a single line, maybe a composite, or a sheet metal, I don't know for sure. The Boxster was about 4 inches in floor depth, I made Template-3 at half that. In any case reusing the stock Subie seats should help hold costs down, and those have a fairly upright and elevated seating position. I don't have enough experience in this area to predict the final outcome, just too many variables.

Was catching up on threads... found this interesting, If I understand the layout correctly, I think these assumptions take up too much space.

I've found that if the rails are relatively close to the tubes running the length of the car and you have a center piece of tubing you simply bond and rivet .050 -.060 aluminum as the floor and just weld 1/8 " thick tabs with the seat rail holes in them to the 1.5" square tubes, flush with the bottom, sitting on top of the aluminum. Some prefer a sheet of more resilent steel under your butt for safety. I think that is how the GTM does it, a sheet of steel...

This is how many Seven clones are made. In my reverse trike I did this, the tabs are 1 1/2 inches sq. 1/8 " steel, and have seat rails that are only about 3/4 of an inch thick. Purchased my seats and rails from Cerullo http://www.cerullo.com/sportsSeats.html in CA. The entire assembly leaves the bottom of the seat about 1 inch above the lowest portion of the chassis, the flat floor panel. Use a very thin bottom on the seat (perhaps that Aeron stuff from office chairs) and you could really maximum headroom for a "wookie". At 5'8" that's not one of my problems, I can't see very well out of the F5 GTM Demo!

[kach22i]

I think that is how the GTM does it, a sheet of steel...

Great information, this is one of the ways I attempted to describe how it could be done. Nice level of detail and clear examples - good stuff.

This type of design only accounts for sheer, that is to say the front to back forces experienced upon rapid acceleration/deceleration.

If I'm not mistaken there can be large moment forces throwing any body of mass upward (people strapped to seats, and the engine) in the event of an accident. In the old Ralph Nader book "Unsafe at any speed" he describes this in the documented seat rail failures of rear engined VW Beetles. People were ejected from cars while still strapped to their seats because of weak seat rails.

For a Kit Car already on the "edge", I'm sure doing what other designs already follow will be fine.

[kach22i]

Added a bunch of images from JAE and Hiryu. Click here to see all of them and I hope to get some more designs posted during the week.

I like that someone else did a clay car.

Thebeerbaron and myself now makes three clay cars that I know of.

[JAE]

I like that someone else did a clay car.

Thebeerbaron and myself now makes three clay cars that I know of.

I actually enjoyed making the clay model. It has a wood foundation based on the 1/12th scale template. most of the time was taken up by loading the photos of the model into PowerPoint and adding color and detail (not the best program for this, but thats all I had). I would like to thank Mad Dod for posting the pictures.

[tjojohnson]

VERY rough. I think you might like it if you overlook my ugly drawing skills....:roll eyes:
photo.JPG
Thank you.;)

[kach22i]

VERY rough. I think you might like it if you overlook my ugly drawing skills....:roll eyes:

Can you trace?

Can you do your own mark-ups?

Can you modify and or change an existing design?

Please see post #309
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Project/page8

[Niburu]

how does it stand up to the template Kach?

[kach22i]

how does it stand up to the template Kach?

Not well; with wheels 24" high you can visually double the height to get a 48" at roof peak car.

I think his car is about 36" high, and that is just the start of the problems.

About all I can get out of this doodle is an idea of headlight shape, and a concept of flat glass planes. Maybe the drawing "tricks, tools and methods" I posted will help him with his expression of form.

There were "drawing templates", working out the ortho views first (side, front, back, top), then trying a perspective is highly recommend (by me).

If all else fails you can carve up a bar of soap, or mix flour with water and get a workable dough, or just buy a few slabs of clay and get working.

I guess you could also carve up rigid foam then cover it in clay, that's what I do when I feel inspired. The nice part about working up a model first is you can change your mind as you go along. You also end up with an object which can be photoed. The photo can be printed out and traced over for a 3D drawing. The drawing can be colored or tone added for B&W artwork.

[olpro]

I think drawing well is integral to designing. The most talented designers always draw extremely well - it is just part of being able to visualize a design.
On the other hand, anyone can learn to draw if they are willing to work at it. I would recommend the Betty Edward’s books (“Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain” is the main one). I have seen people who never drew before learn to do it with amazing results using her methods.
One of her later books covers drawing things from the imagination rather than just drawing what is in front of you. This is the very essence of creative design. Otherwise you are just recreating things you have already seen, perhaps reassembling them differently at best. If you can't draw it, you really can't conceive it mentally.

[mekeys]

z111215.jpgz111215a.jpg

These two pictures are from some early threads..These look somewhat like Rodney O's...I like this design a lot..I think this should have been one of the judges choices..

Mel

[Vman7]

One of her later books covers drawing things from the imagination rather than just drawing what is in front of you. This is the very essence of creative design. Otherwise you are just recreating things you have already seen, perhaps reassembling them differently at best. If you can't draw it, you really can't conceive it mentally.

I agree with that if you can't see it in your head, you really can't draw it. I used to have that problem with other cabinet builders who can't see what your talking about, and I would have to actually draw out the cabinetry in a perspective drawing so they could see what I was talking about. I can see New ideas in my head all the time, can walk around it in all angles etc. in my head. Been doing that since I was a kid. Some things are not real hard to draw up, some are depending on how complex they are.

I see a lot of cabinerty and woodworking stuff in my head all the time, new stuff not something I have seen.

A drafting teacher I had a long time ago said, not everybody can visualize things in their head when comes to something never seen before, and not everybody can actually learn it.

I remember one thime in a mech. drafting class a student who was way ahead of me was trying to draw a cutaway perspective drawing of a part and I told him it was wrong. He said something to the effect, ok you draw it up, so I drew it up real fast by hand. The student said, that's not right. I said you want to make a bet. So we went to the teacher, and the first words out the teachers mouth was to me, what are you doing on those drawings already......lol, Then the teacher said yes that cutaway drawing was right.

I always remember that, and that was something that already had all the front, side and top views to go from. Some people just can't see it in their head for some reason.

I would draw up the Vantage by hand if my scanner was working, otherwise the only person that would see it would be me. Now the 3 point perspectives wouldn't be accurate of course.

[bbatts]

Vman. It sounds like you have a real talent.

B Batts
Nashville, TN

[Vman7]

Vman. It sounds like you have a real talent.

B Batts
Nashville, TN

Thanks , been designing things since the late 60s, all kinds of stuff, and I am still learning all kinds on new ways and better way to do designing. Can never know enough, always learning and asking questions how something is done.

A few people just here in this forum I have learned a lot of stuff. Like from Olpro, Kachi, just to name a few.

I have found that being humble and asking people who don't have the experience, but definitely have talent, say 30yr.s younger then myself, not to be shy and ask how they learned to do something.

Can always learn from anybody, no matter who they are.

David

[kach22i]

I would recommend the Betty Edward’s books (“Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain” is the main one).

I know that I have this book, and I've looked for it twice in the past 20 years with no results. I really need to clean up around here.

I agree that the spark which is visualization is different than Still Life or Life Drawing in which you are taught to draw what you see.

It was amazing to me in architecture school that so many instructors and students of less ability than the really talented students would try to dismiss those of us who could draw as "just artist" and make remarks like; "he's just good at creating form" as an attempt to discredit our design ability.

It is true that those who can draw the best are usually the best designers, but they often are forced to square off in confrontation with so-called intellectuals who pretend that "ideas" and "concepts" are exclusive to them and their ways.

The "idea first" people in my opinion are good at stealing other people's ideas, the "draw first" people are good at developing and discovering ideas on their own.

[Xusia]

If you can't draw it, you really can't conceive it mentally.

I disagree with that statement. I have very little talent at drawing, but I am very creative and can visualize complex designs in my head. I've built several without ever drawing them. I am also able to listen to others verbally describe something and visualize that in head as well.

The "idea first" people in my opinion are good at stealing other people's ideas, the "draw first" people are good at developing and discovering ideas on their own.

Seriously? Come on, you can't actually believe that lack of ability to draw inherently makes someone an idea thief. I have a lot of respect for you based on your posts, and your obvious intelligence. Such a notion seems uncharacteristic and doesn't fit with the image I have of you.

I would consider myself an idea first person (just the way I approach things; I've got nothing against starting with a drawing), and I'm all original! Meaning, I don't steal other people's ideas. In fact, I strive to be unique, and have been known to do things differently just to be different. At the same time, good ideas are good ideas, and are bound to occur to a number of people because of that. I've encountered a LOT of situations where other people had thought of the same thing I did. In other words, we both had original ideas that just happened to be basically be the same.

[kach22i]

.............. you can't actually believe that lack of ability to draw inherently makes someone an idea thief.

No, not always.

I'm just thinking of the times people have stole my drawings and or my ideas. Seems like their great idea was to steal that which they could not create. If it has not happened to you, then perhaps your have never had an idea worth stealing.

Many times I get an idea first, other times I'm inspired by something I see and think; what if I go in a similar or strikingly different direction?

Fact is; most of what I draw is an attempt to solve a problem, not an attempt to create a concept or to create art. The concept and art parts come together to form a solution or concept on paper just as much as it comes together in my head.

Just to have a concept by it's self is nothing more than hunger is to a meal. A hunger does not a meal make. You may make a meal because you are hungry but that is something different.

[Oppenheimer]

Fact is; most of what I draw is an attempt to solve a problem, not an attempt to create a concept or to create art. The concept and art parts come together to form a solution or concept on paper just as much as it comes together in my head.

Just to have a concept by it's self is nothing more than hunger is to a meal. A hunger does not a meal make. You may make a meal because you are hungry but that is something different.

Although I can't draw, most of the ideas I have are to solve a real problem, not some abstract mental excercise. I think your meal analogy is a good one. If someone is hungry for something really good, they may come up with a great idea for a new meal. Some will express that by writing down a recipe, editing it as they think it through. Others will just start tossing things into a pan and start cooking. So long as they can reproduce the great tasting meal next time, I don't see how one is superior to the other. Just different ways creative people work.

[Xusia]

If it has not happened to you, then perhaps your have never had an idea worth stealing.

Dude, pull the knife out! That is downright mean and insulting. You know literally nothing about me. Why would you choose to take such a stab? Like I said, others have had the same ideas. Could they have "stolen" them? Sure, I guess. It's just as possible they actually did come up with it on their own. I just don't see the point in dwelling on the negative possibilities. Even if they did steal it, that's not exactly something I could prove, and being bitter about effects me (negatively) more than it would them.

The concept and art parts come together to form a solution or concept on paper just as much as it comes together in my head.

So you go from concept in your head, to paper, to actual thing. I go from concept in my head directly to actual thing, because I can visual very well in my head, and don't need the paper. I'm failing to see how that's bad, which you seem to be implying.

Just to have a concept by it's self is nothing more than hunger is to a meal. A hunger does not a meal make. You may make a meal because you are hungry but that is something different.

Well, it's obvious you didn't major in philosophy, LOL. I think what you are trying to say is that concept is to a solution, what hunger is to a meal, which is to imply it's useless to the solution. But that's not accurate. In the food analogy, the meal is the solution and hunger is the necessity that drives one to eat (i.e. have a meal). In other words, a meal is the "solution" that fixes the hunger "problem." As is hopefully obvious, a concept is not analogous to a problem. Rather, a concept is an idea about how to solve a problem. At least in the context in which we've been talking. Going back to the food analogy, a concept would be any number of potential answers to the question "where/how can I get some food?"

I'm both taken back and amazed you seem to view concepts with such disdain. Your hands don't work themselves. You MUST have a design concept in your head in order to draw it. The design starts there, and that's called a concept. I'm guessing drawing it out helps you from a vague notion/idea to something more solid, but not everyone needs or uses the same method to get from something abstract to something more concrete. If a drawing works for you, great. Just please don't insult or look down on others who use different methods. That's not fair or open minded, and it's rather insulting...

[VTX]

This is an interesting conversation. I have to say that I am a lot like Xusia, in that often times I'm better at going from an idea in my head directly to the actual thing. I can draw fairly well, but nothing spectacular. However, once I get to 3D I seem to do pretty well making good designs.

I'm actually modeling an 818 idea up in 3D right now. So, when I'm done I guess we'll see if other people really think it's good or not!

[Vman7]

I agree with some of the stuff olpro and kachi said. Like I said above about "If you can't visualize it, you can't draw it".

But I also agree with Xusia and VTX as well.

I am one of those ones who can see all kinds of stuff in my head, some I can draw up, some I can't, just to complex sometimes.

I guess you could say I am somewhat in the middle. I tend to lean more to the detail/engineering side with figuring out all the details, like in some of the high end custom cabinetry I have done over the years, and I am not talking about kitchen cabinerty, commercial stuff with more complex frame structure, curved, odd shapes etc.

One of my forte is logos and lettering, been doing since I was a little kid.

Reminds of this one cabinet builder I knew. He was very good at visualizing stuff in his head as well as explaining it, but couldn't draw a stick figure to save his life.

That's why there are design and marketing consultants who do have the talent to convey someone else's idea who don't have the talent to draw it out etc.

Not sure if this makes sense or not, but anyhoot, just my thoughts about it

[Xusia]

...once I get to 3D I seem to do pretty well making good designs.

That's what I was getting at. Although I've used it at times, 2D paper really doesn't help me much - I'm better at working in real space (which is how I visualize things).

[VTX]

That's what I was getting at. Although I've used it at times, 2D paper really doesn't help me much - I'm better at working in real space (which is how I visualize things).

Yep, I'm the exact same way. I visualize in 3D. I can see a concept in my head and rotate it around and "see" it how it should look in my head.

That being said, I would like to learn to get better at translating what I see in my head into quick 2D sketches.

One other thought. I design a lot of products for a living in 3D, but I've never done car body design before. For this particular project I actually did do a lot of 2D pencil sketches though. One thing I found is that particularly with car body design it is extremely easy to "cheat" with 2D sketches. Many things that look good on paper will not work in 3D, or look really terrible from another view.

[kach22i]

1. Dude, pull the knife out! That is downright mean and insulting. ..........................

2. I'm both taken back and amazed you seem to view concepts with such disdain. Your hands don't work themselves..

1. Sorry, I did not intend my comment to be all about you, I was trying to speak in more general terms and now know it was not taken that way nor was it expressed all that clearly. Your insights, analogies and explanations are very well expressed. The level of rational or linear thinking you have exhibited is commendable. Sometimes the sort of thinking which is good for problem solving is not good for making mistakes, going in circles and discovering or inventing (in general - not directed at you).

2. You did not go to architecture school, so allow me to explain that this is just some of my old baggage I've dragged in. There are posers, both students and instructors which hide behind the term "concept" as an excuse or explanation for complete and often random nonsense they proclaim to be intellectual or better than their competition. The dogma they champion often causes more problems than they solve, and answer questions no one has asked of them. I've noticed that these people are followers and tend to group think as they unintentionally or sometimes intentionally mimic or copy their contemporaries. Sometimes this type of personality gets desperate, and lacking their own ability to generate ideas will copy and or steal. They are good at stealing because they are the first to process/categorize ideas and concepts into schools of thought, perhaps they feel they are deserving and just reaching into some sort of public bin - I have no idea, I just have seen what I have seen. I have seen this in automotive design as well, so I hope we are back on-topic now.
.................................................. .................................................. ......................

I have enjoyed reading other people's thoughts about drawing, design, and problem solving. What works for me, may not work for you. Find what works for you, but also learn what you can from others.

[Xusia]

1. Sorry, I did not intend my comment to be all about you, I was trying to speak in more general terms and now know it was not taken that way nor was it expressed all that clearly. Your insights, analogies and explanations are very well expressed. The level of rational or linear thinking you have exhibited is commendable. Sometimes the sort of thinking which is good for problem solving is not good for making mistakes, going in circles and discovering or inventing (in general - not directed at you).

I understand, and it's all good. Thank you for clarifying.

I would definitely consider myself a problem solver type, but I'm also highly creative, which I believe makes me pretty frickin' good at problem solving (and perhaps a paradox?). Knock on wood, but I've yet to encounter a problem I couldn't solve, and actively believe there is no kobayashi maru. If I can't find a solution, it's because I'm not being creative enough.

2. You did not go to architecture school, so allow me to explain that this is just some of my old baggage I've dragged in. There are posers, both students and instructors which hide behind the term "concept" as an excuse or explanation for complete and often random nonsense they proclaim to be intellectual or better than their competition. The dogma they champion often causes more problems than they solve, and answer questions no one has asked of them. I've noticed that these people are followers and tend to group think as they unintentionally or sometimes intentionally mimic or copy their contemporaries. Sometimes this type of personality gets desperate, and lacking their own ability to generate ideas will copy and or steal. They are good at stealing because they are the first to process/categorize ideas and concepts into schools of thought, perhaps they feel they are deserving and just reaching into some sort of public bin - I have no idea, I just have seen what I have seen. I have seen this in automotive design as well, so I hope we are back on-topic now.
.................................................. .................................................. ......................

I have enjoyed reading other people's thoughts about drawing, design, and problem solving. What works for me, may not work for you. Find what works for you, but also learn what you can from others.

You are right; I did not go to architecture school, but I know the type you are talking about. All too well (I think they exist in all walks of life). And I agree with you about them. Let me also say, that's NOT me (you already said your comments weren't directed at me, but in the context of the this conversation I wanted to make sure I state that explicitly for everyone to know). However, I have found them useful for organizing and categorizing the abstract in a way that makes it digestible for others. The problem, of course (as you say), comes if they try to take credit...

[VTX]

If I can't find a solution, it's because I'm not being creative enough.

That is the absolute truth right there. I have had a number of engineering problems posed to me in my career that were seemingly impossible, but once I turned the whole problem on it's head and looked at it from a completely different angle I was able to figure out a solution.

[Mad Dog]

New designs have been added to the gallery! Click here to check them all out and here's a sample of the new additons.

[kach22i]

Almost odd or ironic that the pudgy Lancia Stratos was an inspiration for Ramy Hefny's design. With a longer wheelbase to accommodate the reclined seating position, this could be a real winner.

Rich Brown with a clay car, that makes four now.

Do not click this link if you are not interested in scaling issues - click it if you are interested or curious.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/

[BipDBo]

There are some really good looking ones in this batch!

[Draco-REX]

Kach22i, as the touter of templates, you'll either get a kick out of this, or have your head explode. Check out 4:28 on this video presenting the new toybaru:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNF9GcZfueE

Look at the rear adult's legs.

[olpro]

That is a typical 2+2 package. Remember, the manikin shows the legs straight ahead while actual people can spread their legs to get better clearance to the front seat. Also, the driver is shown in a normal legroom situation whereas, with a rear passenger, he/she can always track their seat forward a bit.

[sidewinder]

That Ford GT 70 reminds me of the Monza GT, one of the most elegant designs ever done at GM. It is one of my favorites and to think that this thing was done so long ago...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvair_Monza_GT

that monza is beautiful, but it looks as mid-engined as an e-type.
with respect to visionary approach and this contest i would recommend to look at the stratos zero, instead.

[olpro]

that monza is beautiful, but it looks as mid-engined as an e-type.
with respect to visionary approach and this contest i would recommend to look at the stratos zero, instead.

You are just looking at the wrong pictures. The true side view shows the mid-engine proportions. This car is amazing, especially considering it was done in the early 1960s!
MonzaGTcvr_650.jpg

[sidewinder]

You are just looking at the wrong pictures. The true side view shows the mid-engine proportions. This car is amazing, especially considering it was done in the early 1960s!
MonzaGTcvr_650.jpg

again, no doubt about its beauty. i have to admit that i know it from (many) pictures, only. therfor it might be possible that it looks totally different live (experienced this many times). but the proportions look just not right for a conceptcar (that was supposed to be an outlook on future shapes).
there are other cars from that era like the ferrari 250LM who turned out to be the archetype for this layout - and it even was a production car!
attatchement shows the monza next to a daytona - i hope you get my point..

monzaGT_vs_daytona.jpg

[kach22i]

.....the ferrari 250LM who turned out to be the archetype for this layout - and it even was a production car!

I like this one of a kind version of the 250LM, the rear lines just seem to flow better than the original.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...ri-250-LM.aspx
65_Ferrari-250LM_6025_DV-10-CC_07.jpg

[sidewinder]

I like this one of a kind version of the 250LM, the rear lines just seem to flow better than the original.

http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...ri-250-LM.aspx
65_Ferrari-250LM_6025_DV-10-CC_07.jpg

true, just beautiful.. you can already see the 360 modena in it. personally i still prefer the original version - due to the fact that it was born as a 100% racecar. its exaclty these fine differences in flow and balance that make it so...right. in contrast to the monza i know the LM live - if you ever heared the engine you know what i mean.

maybe its the missing a pillar on the monza that makes the hood look so long. in sideview its nearly the "kim Cardashian" sister of the stingray.. X))

monzaGT_vs_stingray.jpg

[Niburu]

I liked the the Aerovette concept more

[sidewinder]

I liked the the Aerovette concept more

aerovette_probs.jpg

actually i see some styling issues on this one. from top to bottom:
1. green: there is a curvature problem on the lower window contour.
2. red: the beltline is nearly horizontal and looks downwards-concave from most angles - looks a bit droopy
3. white: the beltline splits the body in a negative way: 60% above 40% below. usually its the other way round (on sportscars)
4. green square: the fenders do not match the overall precise-convex surface lanugage. they are hanging off the bonnet like - well, see the picture..

but maybe you were thinking of another car? the astro 2?
http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/phot...-II_photo.aspx

[Niburu]

I either like the way a car looks or I don't, drawing arbitrary lines all over it means and proves nothing to me.

[sidewinder]

I either like the way a car looks or I don't, drawing arbitrary lines all over it means and proves nothing to me.

im totally fine with that. it wasn´t intended to convince anybody to like or dislike this car. just my personal opinion. i happened to think this is a design discussion..!? believe it or not but - besides the namelabel - there is a difference between the juke and the gtr - and its not arbitrary.

[Xusia]

Beauty is subjective. What it seems like you are actually comparing is the Aerovette's lines to a formula (at least in your own mind) of what makes a beautiful sports car. While there is undoubtedly science that could be applied to automotive design to increase it's overall appeal to the masses, I would say that none of the cars us car nuts on this forum find appealing are made for the masses. That pretty much renders such science irrelevant in this case.

EDIT: And I'm not discounting your opinion; only stating normal rules probably don't apply well.