Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

First of all please understand that Jim in R&D is suffering a permanent eye-twitch right now as I type this... He doesnt know why, but the start of this thread is the cosmic source. Jim is super-talented and he really has an excellent vision of this new design. He does NOT want this to evolve into a nuetered crowd-sourced, please everyone car and there is so much already fixed in the design.

Lets have some feedback though on body shape as so much chassis engineering is already done on CAD.

Here are the Goals of the car and the facts to date:

Design to be a "World Platform" Factory Five: This means running gear that is available in major parts of the world like Asia, UK-Europe, Middle-East, Australia/New Zealand... etc. We are planning on exporting the FFR experience to the world!

Based on Single Donor Subaru WRX Running Gear: Tough, economical, wide variety of source cars/models, performance capable, solid aftermarket, loyal following.

Chassis: Factory Five Space Frame Chassis, 95" Wheel Base is optimal for small-lightwieght perfomance car. Add wookie-capable interior/space as goal.

Layout: Mid-Engine, Rear Wheel Drive Configuration, two seater roadster

Target weight - 1,800 lbs.

Body: Shape in-process and design competiton, goal is no paint, gel coat panels form

Target Kit Price: $9,900

Target Vehicle Completion Cost Under $15,000: People may doubt this but it CAN be done with vectors that have only come together recently... Late mmodel and plentiful performance-based donor parts pool, and only possible by leveraging our design and manufacturing partners and recent technology on robotic welding, CNC design-based molding, and manufacturing, and our collective experience with making over 8,000 kits for 15 years.

Design Partners: Can't say it enough. No kit car company can accomplish these goals that we have set for the project without full up-front integration of chassis engineering with Solidworks, Body design and shaping on CAD and the correct combo of engineering and design that the team here has amassed. The computer and latest CNC tech will make this happen (already has been part of the project from inception).

Lets talk about what you want to see on body design and any other engineering questions you may have. I would love to see cars like the attack and Porschge 918 and lotus 211 that seem to come close (if someone knows how to post photos, I'd love to see em on this post (I'm still lagging on the forum skills), but the design competiton will be the best place to formally do this. March 1st is the competition launch date. We will have a ton more details going forward on that date.

Dave Smith
FFR001

[mrmustang]

David,

Convertible is a must, and it appears that this is the way the basic design is headed, fine, now, do you want this to be a 2 or 4 seater (2 doors of course, but with or without a functional back seat)? Drivetrain wise, if you really want this to be a "world platform", why would you not consider keeping the Subaru AWD platform. Not every country has a well traveled road system like ours and AWD would most certainly put you and your company light years ahead of any and all competition. Now, while you have the basic chassis dimensions down, you might also consider offering two different packages, both left and right hand drive (again keeping in the world platform theme) would be a start, but perhaps offering both a convertible and/or removable, fold-able hardtop. Again these are all things that cannot be ruled out by your basic wants and needs owner, regardless of where in the world they reside.


Just my two cents worth, all at first blush......


Bill S.

[RedJoker]

My must have list includes a hardtop or at least a full cage for track days. If not in the final design, maybe as an option. And I'm 6'2" so wookie compliance with helmet is important to me.

[Jmcd]

Is it possible to release the dimensions or a sketch of the chassis at this point. I think that the design will be driven somewhat by the cockpit layout, which could be vary, depending upon how much extra space there is behind the passenger firewall.

Most people don't have a suby engine / converted trans sitting around. Will the output shafts of the trans be in line with the rear hubs, or pushed forward a little? I havent fpund any specs on the engine/trans dimensions.

As far as styling goes, I would imagine that the body design would be used as a rough conceptual treatment, choose a few initial designs from the contest, and have a vote on whats best.

[forced4]

Hardtop, either fixed or removable.
Use as much as possible from WRX donor, including interior.
No frills needed and that will help keep weight down.
I don't know if you want to use the McPherson Suby front suspension but that would keep costs down.
Allow two good sized men to sit in comfort...I'm concerned mainly with width.

[PhyrraM]

I agree that too much public input will only create a less focused and less saleable product.

I'm pretty open on styling, but I prefer a finished OEM look. So, simple, easy to integrate and produce with OEM level results is better than fancy styling cues that never seem to look right. (wire mesh behind gaping openings, for example)

My only question/request would be to make accomodations for both 'widths' of Subaru chassis. CV shafts are longer on '02-'07 Impreza sedans than just about any other Subaru. If you HAVE to choose, choose the narrow cars as a base. Way more common source of donor parts.

[Jmcd]

I would also second red joker's comment on the cage, it would be good to have a six point scca/nhra legal bar integrated into the chassis, with availability of a full cage.

I tend to agree with r&d Jim that this thing should not be a watered-down hodge podge of cars that people think are cool, but rather a ground up cohesive concept with muscular looks in-line with other ffr products. So long as there is performance intent in the design, rather than garish/functionless styling exhibited in many kit cars, then the car will have the same type of international appeal that Subaru has.

More random Engineering questions-what is being used from the donor as far as running gear goes? Where are the radiator/s going? Open wheel possible? Will it have bumpers, this may be a concern internationally.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Porsche 918


Lotus 211


Mazda Furai


K-1 Attack


I like the direction you're going with this, Dave. As I've posted in other threads, I think you guys have the potential to do something here that can turn this whole industry on its ear and "revolutionize" the way people view "kit cars". This has the potential of putting a car with incredible performance and awesome looks within the reach of......well, ME! My vote is for something fairly radical styling-wise.....like the Attack or Mazda Furai......something that's going to get noticed and make jaws drop. I also like the looks of the Porsche and Lotus, but to me, the Lotus is even looking a bit bland......lacking character. As I posted in another thread, having built an Attack, I still have yet to find a car that I think was better looking. It's just a down-right bad-a$$ looking car. Period. As with the GTM, what many don't realize by just looking at the pics of the Attack was how LOW it was....the top of the windshield coming right to my belt-loops.....just like the roof of the GTM.

I'm also in favor of keeping things SIMPLE with this car mechanically so it IS easy to assemble and keeps the weight and cost down. I would also be in favor of more of a targa top version or something at least in the Attack range where you have a permanent (but stylish!) roll cage behind the seats. Good Luck!

[Imp]

Layout: Mid-Engine, Rear Wheel Drive Configuration, two seater roadster

Is the engine going to be in front of, or behind, the driver?

Just saying 'Mid-Engine' could be either, as long as it's behind the front axle or in front of the rear axle.

--kC

[Jmcd]

It seems that the engine will be behind the driver, with a subaru transaxle sans rear output shaft.

[Dave Smith]

1. Engine behind driver AWD in RWD config.
2.. Mr. Mustang, I see your point in the awd, but the balance of simplicity and build has to consider this. Also when I say "world car" it is more from the simple fact that almost every FFR that goes to export (about 1 in 5!) is in the same tough spot for running gear, so the ref "World Car" was making it easy to build a, FFR in Australis as much as here (includes RHD considerations also).
3. Shane: I LOVE your feedback as youve built the attack, GTMs and really dig on the photos.
4. Forced4: agree

Does the attack have any type of top?

[Jmcd]

Hey Dave, any feedback on posts 4 or 7 regarding layout/running gear? Also, whatis the target date to start shipping kits?

[Dave Smith]

Jmcd,

The design competiton will spell out dimensions carefully and I imagine the CAD files will show shaft location, trans and engine etc. We will have OUR concept design entered into the competition and hopefully at design competition launch to give people an idea of the metrics and a potential scope/style.

As far as launch dates and production dates, we have launched four cars and as many modified versions ALL on time (Spyder GT, Mk3 Roadster, Mk3.1 Roadster, GTM, Hot Rod, Mk4 Roadster, Gen 2 GTM, and now Type 65 Coupe). At this time there is NO production dates. I dont want to get people excited about a car, get betas all lined up and promise dates, and then make excuses for a year about why the dates never happened.

Another thing about launches... Every new product we've done has gotten progressively better, more accurate, and with less snags. This car will carry that record forward. If I were to GUESS, I would say we would be in production next year. It's not as far away as you might think, and keep in mind that we've been working on the design already for a year on and off.

Specifics will come when they are for sure, but lets focus on the design competiton and on seeing if the driving chassis go-kart can do domuts at open house in the summer while the body gets made.

Hope that answers your questions.

Dave

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Hey Dave,

When I built the Attack, there was no top of any kind available for it. The ones I've seen in photos here, I don't know if that's something K-1 came up with later on, or something that owners/builders came up with on their own. IMO, the simplest thing (you know I like to keep it simple!) to do to try to please everyone would be to build your car as a Targa top......simple removable fg panel, much like the C5 Corvette. This might also satisfy the guys who want full roll cages, as they could just weld in (optional?) tubes from the windshield to the rear roll bar, and the targa top could still hide the bars when installed, and still have that "open top" feel with the roof removed. Just a thought.

[Jmcd]

Thanks Dave, I will be at the open house with deposit money in hand!

[Dave Smith]

That's cool. I'd love to see what the resolution of the attack top is (convert or targa). Simple simple simple. absolutely. I spoke to a guy who is planning on entering the design competiton who is a designer at a major company and excited about taking on our guys. The key to the design since the fundamentals are relatively set is going to be the shape. The good news is that once selected, the shape will go to manufacturing quickly and there wont be a million hands in the in-process stage that can result in a bland or mis-directed style. The GTM was driven by Jims vision with help from some very qualified guys, but still, stayed on course because of Jims vision for the car and its prupose. I cant get to March 1 fast enough!

Dave Smith
FFR001

[Steve91T]

Dave, I've been a fan of Factory Five for many years. This new car will allow me to afford one much sooner rather than later. I'm sure this is true for many other people also.

My dad has a Lotus Elise. Everyone knows the reason that car is so amazing is because it's light. Even with only 190hp, it is very fast on the track. What's also really nice is that it can run back to back sessions, with no problems with heat. The water temp will raise about 6 degrees and that's it. The tires and brakes also stay cool. And because of this, they last a very long time. This makes it very cheap to operate.

I think 4wd should be out of the question. It's going to add weight and complexity. And you're just not going to need it. Imagine if the lotus was 4wd, what would you gain? Mid engine cars already have tons of traction.

You know, even if this car ends up weighing 2000 lbs and costing $20,000 total, it'll still be a hell of a car for the price. There's nothing even close.

Personally, I'd like to have a roof. I'm not an open roof fan. Removable top would be cool with me, as long as it's not a fabric top.

Do you think you'd be able to create some down force with the design? Look at the lap speeds between the regular Lotus and the Exige. Of course it's got 30 more hp, but the down force the body creates makes a big difference in cornering speeds.

Also, are you guys thinking about spec racing?

I'm excited for what you guys are doing. I really feel this car is going to be very popular.

Steve

[Mike N]

For most people a car like that is not a practical everyday vehicle but assuming that the idea is to make a usable vehicle here is what is on my shopping list in order for a road car.

The styling of any of the cars shown above works for me. I'm sure the final design that is chosen will be stunning.
I want a car that I can drive 100 - 200 miles on a weekend without getting beat up, blown away or going deaf.
I want at least some trunk storage space, enough for an overnight bag.
The driving position and control locations need to ergonomically friendly for a 6ft plus driver, shoulder room , leg room, dead pedal etc.
I want a car I can take to the track or autoX so a full roll bar compliant to typical broom stick test is a must.
I'm sure Jim will do a great job on the suspension design but it should be somewhat tunable and have a nice range of alignment adjustments.
It should be able to handle a hot-rodded Subie motor say around 500 HP without coming apart at the seams.
Donor power steering would be nice.
Donor power brakes and ABS would be nice.
Heat and AC would be nice.

[Steve91T]

For most people a car like that is not a practical everyday vehicle but assuming that the idea is to make a usable vehicle here is what is on my shopping list in order for a road car.

The styling of any of the cars shown above works for me. I'm sure the final design that is chosen will be stunning.
I want a car that I can drive 100 - 200 miles on a weekend without getting beat up, blown away or going deaf.
I want at least some trunk storage space, enough for an overnight bag.
The driving position and control locations need to ergonomically friendly for a 6ft plus driver, shoulder room , leg room, dead pedal etc.
I want a car I can take to the track or autoX so a full roll bar compliant to typical broom stick test is a must.
I'm sure Jim will do a great job on the suspension design but it should be somewhat tunable and have a nice range of alignment adjustments.
It should be able to handle a hot-rodded Subie motor say around 500 HP without coming apart at the seams.
Donor power steering would be nice.
Donor power brakes and ABS would be nice.
Heat and AC would be nice.

I don't think power steering would be needed. A car this light, and mid engine, power steering would probably make the feedback numb.

[PhyrraM]

I'm thinking full donor dash would make it really livable. That might reduce the pool of Subaru donors though, depending on how it integrates with the bodywork.

[mrmustang]

Dave,

How stuck are you at your current wheelbase? I ask that because a typical WRX is 99.4" vs your 95", is that extra 4.4" a deal killer? Do you believe that in all honesty you could not stretch the wheelbase and retain that AWD configuration in a true bolt on/in fashion?

Top wise, have you looked closely at the Lotus Elise with it's simple and elegant design/style?

Bill S.

'Attachment 310Attachment 307Attachment 308Attachment 309

[Acheron315]

What about the Rossion for styling cues? It's simple, appealing, aerodynamic, and midengined as well. http://rossioncars.com/ No big angles, extra scoops, or other bits to drive cost or mold complexity up.


A big consideration on mid-engined turbo cars is where to put the intercooler, and I would make accomodations for both the stock and much wider upgraded intercoolers that are a common mod.

I used to own a heavily modded MR2 turbo and the intercooler was a constant source of headache as there was literally no good place to put an intercooler much larger than stock.

[Jmcd]

It would be cool to have all wheel drive, but you have to look at the configuration of the wrx, having some of the trans and all of the engine ahead of the front axle line, in a lighter car, the handling would be very much compromised. Plus, they are sticking to the chassis they have.

[Mike N]

I don't think power steering would be needed. A car this light, and mid engine, power steering would probably make the feedback numb.

Steve. I agree that power steering would not be a deal breaker but for things like autoX it is a very big plus. I enjoy my roadster with manual steering but it is a handful on a fast slalom just because of the effort required in quick left to right transitions. In fact I cannot drive a fast slalom at the limits of the car purely because I cannot steer the car quick enough.

[Imp]

Why would this car *need* AWD? Really? No. No. No. "Add lightness" is a concept that has withstood the test of time and makes perfect sense with this car.

You gonna drive it in the snow? Too low.
Need to make up for the chassis/weight distrib shortcomings? It's going to be balanced better than the donor.
Just to say you have AWD? *thwack with a ruler on the knuckles*

--kC

[Imp]

Steve. I agree that power steering would not be a deal breaker but for things like autoX it is a very big plus. I enjoy my roadster with manual steering but it is a handful on a fast slalom just because of the effort required in quick left to right transitions. In fact I cannot drive a fast slalom at the limits of the car purely because I cannot steer the car quick enough.

A quicker rack > Power steering. Even with power steering, you're going to have to turn the wheel the same amount, just 'easier' to do it.

--kC

[NicksPapaw]

Dave, I cannot tell you how excited I am just watching this come together. I also would like to see a removable top that can fit somewhere in the car. Heat and air are also needed since I want to be comfortable when I drive it. I really like the attack design. It just says, get the heck out of my way!!!! Looks like you are on the right track. Keep us posted. I, for one will be watching closely.

[Olli]

I don't see doors as being necessary. It really isn't a big deal to climb into a low car and slide down into the seat. Eliminating doors would go a long way in making the body not needing bodywork and paint. Just imaging how much build time could be saved by not having to fit and align doors.

Olli

[bauhaus]

K-1 Attack


Please do not make the design like the K-1!!!!
I am a huge fan of Factory Five cars and my brother has a roadster - it is awesome! I have been waiting for the right FF kit for me and this seems like it - as long as it looks great. The GTM is a beautiful looking car so I wouldn't mind seeing a mini-GTM look with a targa top version. I think the K-1's design is pretty bad - too flashy for the sake of being flashy - and strange proportions. If you look at the most gorgeous cars that have been ever build, usually they have a fluidness about the design.

I am pulling and hoping for a car that looks like the a Porsche 908 - that would be amazing!

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

If you're looking for old '60s race cars, RCR has plenty of them. Lola, Porsche 917, 962, Ferrari P4, etc.....

http://www.race-car-replicas.com/rcr917.html

Yes, they are gorgeous cars, but also complicated and generally much more expensive to build than what I think FFR has in mind for this car. I'm hoping for something modern.....not a design that's already 50+ years old and everyone is going to assume it's a kit car as soon as they see it.

[FFRWRX]

A removable top, targa type, is a great idea. Having the fixed rear window, with no place for the air-blast to go is a bad idea. Maybe it's just me, but driving a C5 Vette with the targa top off just once was enough for me to keep the top on. Yes, it does feel somewhat like a convertible, but the air entering the cockpit has no place to go and just buffets around. An opening rear window or some other passage for the air would make it much better.

Rick

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

BTW.....just thought I'd throw this fact out there.....the Attack uses the stock Honda Accord windshield.

[Mike N]

A quicker rack > Power steering. Even with power steering, you're going to have to turn the wheel the same amount, just 'easier' to do it.

--kC

kC it's speed that's the key and less effort really does equate to more speed. For a road car I agree no big deal for a track car it would be 'really nice to have'. Fitting the same power steering that FFR has for the hot rod could be an option on the kit. It would just be nice if the kit was designed to accept it.

[C.Tree]

Congratulation F5 and Dave! A brilliant idea and you will have an amazing car; power of a HO 302 under 2k lbs.!!

If I had a awd WRX donor; where would I source the single drive trans? an early impreza? and whether awd or fwd donor; do subies have paddle shifting from factory or aftermarket or not at all?

Thanks All!!

[Steve91T]

The lotus elise doesn't have PS, and it doesn't need it. I also used to have a heavily modified MR2. The PS would only work at slow speeds. Anything higher than 50 or 60, and it was completely turned off. My MR2 had 310 hp and weighed about 2800 lbs.

Seems like some people here don't understand that this is going to be light, cheap, and fast. AWD, AC, PS, radios, and big trunks just aren't possible.

But honestly, if you are building the car, you can probably do whatever you want.

As far as getting cool air to the intercooler, that probably wouldn't be a problem. The problem with the MR2 was the lack of enough cool air. I'm sure FFR will design this car with the IC in mind.

Steve

[Kerry & Kathy]

I don't see doors as being necessary. It really isn't a big deal to climb into a low car and slide down into the seat. Eliminating doors would go a long way in making the body not needing bodywork and paint. Just imaging how much build time could be saved by not having to fit and align doors.

Olli

This is not intended to be a race car... but a DAILY DRIVER for all sizes, ages and genders.

Having owned a doorless hot rod, I can tell you from experience that most women over the age of 15 will tell you to kiss off if she has to "climb in".

My wife for example, is permanently disabled and physically unable to climb out of a doorless vehicle.
Make entry and exit easily accessible to all...

K&K

[thebeerbaron]

Given that you have a target weight of 1800lbs, what portion of that is available for body panels? Unless I am much mistaken, that will have a big influence on the size and complexity of those body panels. Think Atom vs. GTM.

Very excited about this car and the competition. Sharpening my clay modeling tools as we speak!

[agepag]

Just please make it legal to drive in Canada!

[oldguy668]

I know I'll get a beat-down for this, but instead of a Lotus Elise clone that my fat butt won't fit in, how about a screaming little truck with a Targa top and A/C? Maybe something a little like this...



The bed would have to be a little high to accommodate the boxer engine , but a couple of well placed storage boxes would alleviate that. If you are planning on bolt-on body panels, maybe a second shape could evolve once the initial concept catches on.

[keys2heaven]

^^ That'll be the "surprise" in 2 years.


And, since 2 cents seems to be popular, I'll add that I like the rounded rear end of the Chrysler Crossfire.