Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[Rotr8]

I wouldn't change the rear cpillar humps at all if anything I would modify your front view to reflect what you have designed in the rear view.
Louvers are the vents/reverse ducts you drew in the c pillar area,

[Olimk2]

Los "louvers" son las aperturas detras de las ventanas laterales ...Tus desenos son muy buenos tio!
Ok so i would not put those louvers anyway...
As for rear visibility in any case it will be difficult to have a good view through the rear glass, all mid engine cars the same here (except full down soft tops). For CEE approval the rear view test are now very stringent so it will be a matter of putting rear view mirrors big enough and well placed...

[xabier]

Okay so the louvers are the 3 vents on the humps? Thats allright then
You are right, I did the rear this way because the front rendering I am working on has the rollbars and humps this way, so I changed that on the front view.

[bromikl]

http://www.autoblog.com/photos/first...-g400/#1469325

What about this?

And maybe offer a jet-fighter canopy over the cockpit as an accessory?

I'm thinking a little less rounded across the front and awesome-huge side intakes just behind the driver.

Personally, I think it's important to have the radiator in the back; as adding tubing and water to get the radiator in the front will add a lot of weight and complexity. Every gallon of water weighs 8.4 lbs.

(If I could draw) I'd try to make the underside flatter, maximize the underside surface area and add a chin spoiler.

[LiquidPT]

I want to be clear: I absolutely love the way it looks and one advantage that this design has overt the Solstice convertible (or Opel GT for the Europeans) is that it look slike it would accomadate a full roll bar.

[fd_colorado]

I have 2 ideas to toss out for the Subaru-engined design. Admittedly, these ideas would require a different chassis layout.

Background -- The problem I see with the current approach is that any new body design will appeal to a somewhat limited audience, no matter how good it is. (Remember the Spyder GT-V8?)

I'll concede that the GTM does have a following but there are good reasons why the well-trodden path is down the road of familiar models and shapes.

Looking at the cost constraints dictates to me some sort of minimalist race replica.

My best idea would be to make something along the lines of the F1 inspired version of the Ariel Atom as shown in the photo below.



The cool factor would be quite high, imho. The bodywork is simple and you could paint it like your favorite F1 team's car. The bodywork could also be updated or backdated when the car's owner was ready for a change. Think of it as a dynamic model for big kids. We could call it the FF1.

My second idea has relatively similar dimensions of 1800 lbs. and a wheelbase of 90.5". The iconic Porsche 917 would also appeal to the boy modeler in all of us.

[Gollum]

I don't really understand the visibility complaints much. I also don't understand how the pontiac solstice could be so terrible.

I've owned or drive every type of Z car there is, and in every case it's just something you get used to. An I'd say those are easier to see out of than some other more popular cars, like the previous generation mitsubishi eclipse.

What makes it really hard to see is in most cars is the height of the rear deck that you're looking over, and how far away you are from it. The closer you are to the rear window then the more you can see out of it. And if those humps are actually built right, then seeing over your shoulder shouldn't be that big of a deal, without compromising the look of the car.

All in all I'm just saying there's some cars out there with pretty bad visibility and people still buy them.

[kach22i]

The Prius, Aztex and old CRX all have those little windows under the rear deck lid edge. A window there on a mid-engine car would also allow viewing of the engine.

The old Bora could have used it - I sketched one in as an example.

[Olimk2]

Park sensors are cheap today...

[kach22i]

Park sensors are cheap today...

Rear view camera with night vision might be an option for the techies.

[kach22i]

The iconic Porsche 917 would also appeal to the boy modeler in all of us.

Great thought, but it's been done over and over, plus you would lose several generations of kit builders.

Maybe a Rolex Grand-Am (Daytona Prototype) replica modified for the street?
http://www.planetlemans.com/2008/01/...rolex-24-pole/


http://blog.autoshopper.com/articles...and-Am-Series/

[Olimk2]

Gallileo reminds us the world is not flat, lol! There's a bunch of road/race cars in uk, Radical, new catheram...

[olpro]

I have read some comments about using the Subaru windshield for this vehicle. As one post pointed out, many donors would not have good glass - if it was intact, it might be dull and scratched.
The main problem is the size and shape of the Subaru ws. The corners are all sharp which doesn’t lend itself to many configurations.
I am working on a Suburu powered project (VW chassis) and looked into other options for it. The best I could find was the Chevy Aveo ws which is smaller and has round corners. Based on a rough measurement in a parking lot, it is about 52” wide at the base (3” less than the Subaru), 45” wide at the top (1.5” less than Subaru) and about the same length from base to top center. It has a flatish shape so can be laid back more than the production angle without the c-line looking too crowned.
Whatever windshield is finally picked up, the fiberglass perimeter would pick up not only the mounting flanges but the wiper-cowl area – so production wiper components could easily be used.

[Olimk2]

Xabier, if you wish to make small changes, the exhaust can't be there, the gear box is in already! Could be nice to define your split lines for hood/trunk etc...Big wheels are nice but seems to ride on '20 at least. Don't forget our big euro licence plates as well!
Don't try to modify too much you already get it!

[kach22i]

Don't forget our big euro licence plates as well!

That is a sticky problem at times. On my design I did away with Porsche 911 style rubber bump pads in favor of a higher cleaner rear location.

The front plate is the worst offender to the eyes. I was looking at some 718-RSK/RS-60 cars on the Internet yesterday. Very silly how the front Euro plate makes them look.

[Olimk2]

OH yes! at least in UK thy are allowed to stick adhesive ones on the body.

[cozmacozmy]

I haven't read all 11 pages yet and only saw 1 reference to a Lancia Stratos so far. Why not get into the road/off road rally car racing. A Stratos would be the cats meow.

With Subaru's being famous for rally cars, stepping into a Stratos body with WRX running gear would be killer on the rally circuit.

http://www.stratossupersite.com/history.htm








Some one else is trying to resurrect the Stratos name and look...

[crobin4]

I haven't read all 11 pages yet and only saw 1 reference to a Lancia Stratos so far. Why not get into the road/off road rally car racing. A Stratos would be the cats meow.

With Subaru's being famous for rally cars, stepping into a Stratos body with WRX running gear would be killer on the rally circuit.

http://www.stratossupersite.com/history.htm








Some one else is trying to resurrect the Stratos name and look...

Ummm.... because a modern AWD rally car would slaughter any Stratos wanna be, irregardless who built it.
Not to be derogatory, The Stratos and Ford Escorts were amazing for there day. Then Audi......

[cozmacozmy]

Ummm.... because a modern AWD rally car would slaughter any Stratos wanna be, irregardless who built it.
Not to be derogatory, The Stratos and Ford Escorts were amazing for there day. Then Audi......

...OK

[crobin4]

...OK

Sorry, didn't mean to sound mean. Didn't intend it to be mean either. This is an open discussion, I should have kept my "mouth" shut or taken a different approach.
I do like the logic you used. I just think it wouldn't be competitive in rally, if you were allowed to run it. Targa Newfoundland would however be an entirely different story.....

[Jammin]

I am really liking this car design. I cannot believe I am going to say this, but it needs a wing

[Dave Smith]

One of my all-time favorite cars growing up was the Lancia, but I'm not a judge...

[crobin4]

I am really liking this car design. I cannot believe I am going to say this, but it needs a wing

Yep, same here. I'm looking/hpoing for some built in aero like the GTM , with optional splitter and wing to increase the downforce.

[Oppenheimer]

One of my all-time favorite cars growing up was the Lancia, but I'm not a judge...

But at least one of the judges _is_ on your payroll!

Always liked the Lancia too, and the whole Group B look. Sports cars that were fast, tough, and could be driven hard on all types of roads.

[crobin4]

Sports cars that were fast, tough, and could be driven hard on all types of roads.

That's exactly what got me into Subarus to start with.

[PhyrraM]

Warning....inner geek aproaching.....

My first and one of the most memerable exposures to rally was an old Choose Your Own Adventure book I read as a kid. It was loosely based on the Safari Rally in Africa and your first choice was to choose between the Lancia and a Saab. I always chose the Lancia, and have been fascinated with it ever since.



While searching for the above picture to post here, I found out that the series has been recently re-released. This particular title now apparently has new vehicles to choose from:




Now, all that being said, I don't want the FFR 818 to be a Stratos replica. To me, a Stratos replica would need to be a very short 85" wheelbase (not 95"), mid-engined V6. Top of my head would be a Mazda KL series or possibly a Ford Duratec25.

[Dave Smith]

Jim may be on the payroll, but he is a visionary who indeed marches to the tune of a very different drummer. When my brother left FFR way back in 2001 Jim became the person who was charged with new products. Truth is that he has really directed the development of so much at FFR. He sheparded the design and structure of the Challenge Series, The Hot Rod and GTM were both his babies 100% and he is simply the most talented R&D engineer I've ever met. I cant buy his vote.

That being said, I LOVE the tie in between the type of car and pure driving that Subie guys are doing in line with the Startos heritage and vibe. Wait til we get to the trophy truck...

Dave

[Oppenheimer]

Jim may be on the payroll, but he is a visionary who indeed marches to the tune of a very different drummer. When my brother left FFR way back in 2001 Jim became the person who was charged with new products. Truth is that he has really directed the development of so much at FFR. He sheparded the design and structure of the Challenge Series, The Hot Rod and GTM were both his babies 100% and he is simply the most talented R&D engineer I've ever met. I cant buy his vote.

That being said, I LOVE the tie in between the type of car and pure driving that Subie guys are doing in line with the Startos heritage and vibe. Wait til we get to the trophy truck...

Dave

Its so great that such a talent is working for an org that appreciates his efforts and is willing to grant him the freedom to let his ideas flourish. That the same org is willing to let the world in on the next design is pretty cool, too.

You mentioned this 'truck' project twice. You also hinted that the 818 is going to be more than we know right now (potential different powerplants, etc). That seems like a lot of stuff to take on at once. Don't know how you guys are doing it.

[cozmacozmy]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound mean. Didn't intend it to be mean either. This is an open discussion, I should have kept my "mouth" shut or taken a different approach.
I do like the logic you used. I just think it wouldn't be competitive in rally, if you were allowed to run it. Targa Newfoundland would however be an entirely different story.....

No fret Chris.

With the Cobra, Daytona, and challenger series you have road racing/autocross all set. With the roadster you have the hot rodders all set. With the GTM you have the euro super car all set, why not do a rally car? I'm not much into rally right now, but my brother-in-law and his friends are and they all drive Subaru cars. With the cheaper price of starting with a Subaru, it would help some of us less fortunate ones to get into a FFR car. From what I understand the Lancia Stratos was a top winner for many years.

[PhyrraM]

Jim may be on the payroll, but he is a visionary who indeed marches to the tune of a very different drummer. .....he has really directed the development of so much at FFR. He sheparded the design and structure of the Challenge Series, The Hot Rod and GTM were both his babies 100% and he is simply the most talented R&D engineer I've ever met. I cant buy his vote.

Dave

And that is why it really won't matter *much* how this car looks, or if it has a top or not. It WILL sell on it's merits and pedigree. A top will add to sales, of course, but I can't see it being a flop in any version of reality.

And no Trophy truck until this one is in the bag..... Waiting this year is gonna be painful enough, withut another project slowing you folks down.

[Oppenheimer]

No fret Chris.

With the Cobra, Daytona, and challenger series you have road racing/autocross all set. With the roadster you have the hot rodders all set. With the GTM you have the euro super car all set, why not do a rally car? I'm not much into rally right now, but my brother-in-law and his friends are and they all drive Subaru cars. With the cheaper price of starting with a Subaru, it would help some of us less fortunate ones to get into a FFR car. From what I understand the Lancia Stratos was a top winner for many years.

Have you seen this submission? Its got the Group B theme going strong. It seems like most are excited about designs that are more 'sports car', like the Xabier, but Dave has said multiple bodies is a possibility. Perhaps FFR will build the car with one body style now, and later offer a very different option, such as this.

[PhyrraM]

I like that Group B hatchback too. The old Metro 6r4 was also one of my closet favorites.




I still think the Roadster/Convertible should be the first out the gate.

[GUNS]

Something like this with 2 seats would be amazing!

[98SGM]

Photo on 2011-03-16 at 22.16.jpg

Hey guys, just seeing what your thoughts were on my sketch. I'm having a hard time making front and rear views for it but the basic idea is a short Stingray like front end with a split grill GT40 like lower part/bumper. The side is suppose to resemble a Dagger gt with the new Porsche 918 side scoops but it didn't translate "curvy" enough. And lastly I envisioned a 50's Corvette like rear end with TVR Tuscan style lights front and rear. I cant draw worth a darn so I'm working on a clay model for it but thought I would get some opinions. So let me have it the good, bad, and ugly. Oh, and this contest rocks!

[PhyrraM]

Nobody has put these together yet, so I will.




My comments on the rear:
Again, very nicely done. Love the simple, easy to produce (possibly off-the-shelf) tailights. The curve of the back panel perfectly compliments the one on the front face. Like the diffuser, but as mentioned, the transmission and shift linkage is going to be where you currently have the exhaust.

I think the rear vents would be better placed on the flatter section between the camel humps. Also, this is touchy but worth investigating, make the section between the tailights a partial vent. Might not work out though.

I like the targa conversion, but I'd need to see more exact detail on how the window/targa bar/camel hump interface looks. Also I wonder what shapes in that area can be convincably produced in fiberglass.

Again, overall an excellent presentation. I say your almost ready for detailed engineering/getting ready for production work. IMHO, it's that good.


I just remembered where else I've seen that nose curve.

Old Triumphs.

And that's a wicked good thing to me. Even though I'm an MG man, old British roadsters were the essential cheap, but horribly fun to drive cars. The Miata, Elise, X1/9, MR2, and a host of others owe thier exsistance to the British Roadster.

[PhyrraM]

For those designers that are trying to keep an eye on the proposed FFR budget I figured I'd post the factory exhaust for reference.

The factory exhaust leaves the turbosharger on the right side of the car and travels low and tight to the transmission. Some early models, like the first pic, are one piece until 12" behind the FFR 818's rear bumper. These would obviously need to be cut and re-routed. Likely to a muffler. US models, and possibly others, already have a bolted flange (second pic) in a good spot to install an exhaust.

If course it's possible to use a new exhaust complete from the turbo. At cost though. As always, just info for the designer to consider.

The pics should be fairly self explainitory. Hopefully this helps those trying to 'reuse WRX parts'.


This is a slightly older than '02 motor, but there are no reals changes to be concerned with. This is also the 5 speed trans. The perspective is a bit off, but the trans is centered in the car, so the exhaust is 8"-12" off center at the catylitic convertor. You can also see that the intercooler is not directly over the engine. There is room for a clever design to route air down-n-out or up-n-out the intercooler.


Top is a North American WRX, bottom is like the one in the above pic.

[Dave Smith]

98SGM Make sure you submit toi the GRM contest as I think they are still just under 50 submissions. I like curves always.

Opp: No doubt there is alot on the horizon, but you can count on us to do one thing at a time, well, maybe two... The truck project will happen, but we all decided to accelearat the 818 first and get it rockin.

[Silvertop]

I’ve been lurking about on FFR’s website (and other kitcar websites) for at least a half-dozen years now, looking for the perfect kit-car retirement project for me. Though I’ve always loved the AC C****a (I was a teenager when the originals were being marketed), my personal preference in sports cars always leaned toward rear- and mid-engined small block types. But because I admire FFR’s donor-car concept, plus their leadership position atop the kit-car universe, I have found myself waffling back and forth between the FFR Roadster and other reputable makers’ examples of 550 Spyder and Speedster replicas.

The new 818 project is a game-changer, fitting right into the niche that tickles my fancy, and the projected timing of its introduction means that it will probably become available precisely when I need it to. Here’s hoping the final design includes some kind of a removable roof (stowable targa-top preferred) and a window system capable of keeping the weather on the outside of the car.

I’m going to get in line with other forum contributors and express my admiration for young Xabier’s design concept. That car is just plain sexy. It reminds me a bit (at the nose) of the legendary Aston Martin DB5, and its overall shape suggests Ferrari Dino or any number of Porsches (904, 918), but at the end of the day it doesn’t really look like anything but itself.

I’ll take mine in white, silver, or champagne.

[LiquidPT]

I don't really understand the visibility complaints much. I also don't understand how the pontiac solstice could be so terrible.

I'm taking the Sol out today, so I'll take video looking around the cabin.

[LiquidPT]

Rear view camera with night vision might be an option for the techies.

This is what I plan on adding... It'll increase my rearward visibility, but not sure it'll help with the 3/4 views that are completely blocked now.