Open Design Discussion and What's NEXT!

[Evan78]

C.Tree - this is the 1 kit I've seen for converting to FWD. It's from Bremar Auto in Australia:
http://www.bremarauto.com/products/s...onversion-kit/

[Someday I Suppose]

Totally with you, I commute by bus everyday but that also includes a 15 mile drive to the park and ride. I could without a doubt see using this car in that light plus weekend fun. :-)

Agreed on all points. Especially agree that comfort and DD type ammenities should not, NOT, be #1 priority. Not even #2 nor perhaps even #3. I just think they shouldn't be automatically excluded.

Lots of people are taking umbrage at 'DD' comments (not targeting you here Scott, just comments in general). I think perhaps some of that is what people mean by 'DD'. To me that isn't trying to duplicate the high-end ride, comfort, and ambiance of my wife's Audi. It simply means a car with roll-up windows, the option of a weather tight roof, able to make it quiet enough to prevent permanent hearing loss, and able to have enough climate control to not risk hypothermia when its near the freezing mark, or sunstroke if its above 80 (and humid, like it often is here in the East in summer).

For me, the only thing keeping the Roadster for being 'DD-able' is the weather-tight roof and roll-up windows part. And while you can 'roll-your-own' in a lot of ways in your Roadster build, those 2 things are not easy to overcome. I'm hoping this new kit won't have those limitations. If I can also get real heat and real defroster and real AC, then I've got my ideal DD-able kit.

I am not into garage queens, or even weekend only toys, let alone track-day only. I just don't have the space, resources, or time. If I built a kit car (when), I will be using it, a lot, for going wherever I need to go. When I need more room, or the road is too slippery with snow or ice, I've got an SUV for that. Otherwise I'll be driving the wheels off my 'fun' car. I'm hoping my new fun car is going to be a, whatever we end up calling the new kit.

[C.Tree]

Thanks Evan78, Your the man! Wow, that spool costs 230; you know FF will do it for a fourth of the cost.

Would you recommend the book mentioned on the website "Sub Perf Hndbk 3rd Ed."? Amazon says: "currently unavailable" or recommend other subbie performance books?

Thanks!

[Calamity J]

Evan78, Thanks for the response. Do you know if the awd trans can be converted to fwd? I think this may be difficult because isn't the power split (i.e. 60/40 front/rear) computer controled?

The non-STI manuals in Subaru's AWD lineup are all 50f/50r split. It's a basic mechanical differential with a viscous slip limiter. The STI's transmission is 35f/65r up to '05 and 41f/59r '06-present. The STI's split is determined by a planetary gearset in the center diff. In either case the center differential can be removed and replaced with a simple transfer gear (some people simply remove their WRX's center diff and weld the spider gears when they convert their Impreza to 2WD). In the case of the WRX this can be done without removing the transmission from the car. I'm not sure what the R&R process is on the STI.. I've never heard of anyone trying to make it FWD before.

Obviously one advantage of the STI transmission would be greater strength.. another would be that it's the only Subaru transmission with a limited slip front diff (Suretrac up to '04, helical '05 & later). Adding a front diff (the aftermarket is already there) will be one of those things people will have to consider on their own for the WRX transmission.

[C.Tree]

Thanks Calamity J! Man you guys are on it! Any books you would recommend? Thanks!

[Turboguy]

Perhaps drawing some inspiration from the K-1 Attack, a kit car that is no longer available from the Slovakian company K1-Engineering.

http://www.k-1attack.com/en/sucasna-modelova-rada.k1

[Benji]

Perhaps drawing some inspiration from the K-1 Attack, a kit car that is no longer available from the Slovakian company K1-Engineering.

Really?

[D2W]

Dave I want to tell you how much I appreciate you letting us tag along this time. Tell Jim to take a deep breath and relax, the eye twitching will go away. As an engineer myself I totally understand where he is coming from. Just stay true to your design goals and keep an open mind. You never know what crazy suggestion will spark the next great idea.
For my 2 cents worth I think your design goals are right in-line with what I'd do. Lightweight, powerful and reliable donor, and a killer look. Attack, 918, your own sketch, build it with that style in mind and they will line up at your door. I can't wait!
DP

[KOUROS]

Dave,
Please keep me in mind when the time comes for design competition (march 1st). If you remember back in the day I assisted with some 3D animated renderings of the GTM that ended up in FFR's promo DVD as well as FFR's current logo. For many years, I've been in in Vehicle Design and 3D modeling especially when it comes to presentation. I'm able to quickly change design elements and display end results with quick turn arounds. I've worked with Ferrari, Mercedes Benz, Ford, GM, Landrover, Lotus, Aston Martin, Lamborghini, McLeran and may other companies alike, accurately modeling and representing their cars in top notch console games. I've been around FFR since 2000 and I'd love to help out again where I can.

Best wishes and regards,
Kouros

[Benji]

http://www.3dexport.com/img-k1-attack-10389.htm

I saw this whilst looking at more info on the Attack. EXPENSIVE though for 3D plans.

[s_martin]

Thinking of cars to emulate, I always loved the looks of the Suzuki GSX-R/4. It has pretty simple but aggressive lines. It doesn't have a top, but I think that could be added to the shape and still have something nice to look at. The shape and overall proportions are what I like, wheels at the far corners, low and lean. The surfaces are also mostly smooth, which would make them easier to produce.

Just a thought.

GSX-r2.jpgGSX-r.jpg

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

s_martin.....I think that's a great example of how utterly simple you can make something, and still have it look really nice. There's nothing outrageous about the shape of any part of that car, but the overall proportions of everything just make it a great look. Yes, there are some major problems with the design as a whole.....like trying to integrate some real working headlights without making it look like a bug-eyed dufus, and no provisions for getting cooling air to the engine bay.....but it is a pretty neat looking little car!

[AZJoker]

Not copying but a starting point for the body. Look at the 550 Spyder design. Flare the fenders out(front and back)....meatier tires.....more modern headlights(like you see in the GTM.not the same design but like it) rounded rear wing that forms to body...very light car.

p.s. cool cup holders *wink*

[D2W]

One thing I've been thinking about in relation to the doors is; make the door part of the hardtop. If the sill area around the cockpit were low enough say under 30", the step over height wouldn't be bad, and part of the roof could open with the door to the front and out of the way like an Ultima. It would be easier to step over and down into the car than to bend down and try to slide under a low hardtop. The side windows could be part of the door and just pop in and out. I know some of you want windows that roll up and down, which would be nice, but it complicates the body immensely, and adds unneccesary weight and cost. And the body would be a whole lot simpler without the door at all. Just ask someone who has a coupe or GTM how much fun it was to mount the doors.
DP

[Turboguy]

Does the attack have any type of top?

K-1 Engineering did eventually release a top for the Attack --a very, very expensive add-on piece-- but from what I have read elsewhere not many were delivered. I recall reading that delivery of back-ordered parts was one of the issues purchasers of the 37 or 38 kits that were sold in North America ran into.

Here's a picture of the Attack top pieces & hardware:







and the side windows:




And a few pics of the top on the car:








Dave, I was originally going to build an Attack, but instead decided to build an FFR MK III roadster.

[Turboguy]

Although I understand it's a big undertaking, given the single-donor platform it would be great if the heat/ac system from the WRX could be integrated into the car as well -- or at least an option to do so.

This would add a level of "civility" to the finished car while keeping build costs as low as possible.

[VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC]

Although I understand it's a big undertaking, given the single-donor platform it would be great if the heat/ac system from the WRX could be integrated into the car as well -- or at least an option to do so.

This would add a level of "civility" to the finished car while keeping build costs as low as possible.

I've already touched on this topic in one of these threads....but as far as fitting a production car AC system into this car, I just don't think it's going to be possible. If it's anything even close to the AC unit in the 'Vette, I can tell you that I've sold one of those on ebay out of one of the donor cars I've stripped down here, and I kid you not, the box to ship it out ended up being about the size of a 55gal drum. It is a huge, massive one-piece unit, as are most production car AC/heater systems.

[PhyrraM]

The Subaru A/C is not that large and cumbersome. While I don't see the need for A/C, heat and defrost might be nice - but not mandatory.

The way I see it is two fold:

a: If the factory dash is to be reused in the kit, an enterprising builder can most likely also adapt the Factory climate control with a bit of creativity and elbow grease.

b: If the kit has it's own 'dash', then there are many heat-A/C targeted at the hot-rod/resto-mod community that can likely be used (with the Subaru compressor)

[HealeyRick]

My first car was a Bugeye Sprite and I've owned my present one for almost 35 yrs (yikes!). I've also owned a FIAT X 1/9, which was sort of like a mid-engined Bugeye. Both these cars had some similar attributes that I find appealing, light, nimble, simple and inexpensive. What they needed was more power and for the Bugeye, more weatherproofing; for the FIAT, less rust. With that as background, here are some of my thoughts:

1. Should be capable of being street licensed in all states with emissions compliance
2. I'm thinking of something in the vein of a car with the attributes of a LoCost, but with a greater degree of comfort.
3. I like the idea of color-impregnated body panels. They should also be readily replaceable by the owner without a lot of work. Prang a fender, you should just be able to bolt on a new one. No bodywork or paint required.
4. Needs a cage or top that would be acceptable to run in most track days and autoX without further owner modification.
5. Should be able to drive it to the track and strip off everything that doesn't make it go fast in 30-45 min. Towards that end, I'm thinking of glass side windows that could be raised and lowered by winders or even a nylon strap, but could easily be removed without tools trackside. Fenders, maybe cycle type, that could be removed at the track. Stalk mounted headlights that could be unplugged and removed. Lizard Skin style insulation to quiet it down and heat insulate with minimum weight. Passenger seat easily removable. Any floormats, rugs, interior trim panels should be snap-in and out or slide-in and out.
6. A Targa roof would probably be most practical, however it can be a real drag to lift off and stow away (like on the X 1/9) Would be nice if it could be made to hinge at the rear, be flipped to vertical and then slide into the space behind the seats and in front of the motor. Also would need to be completely removable at the track,

7. Need to have enough wheel space for big rubber.

8. I can't draw a straight line with a ruler, so I can't illustrate my thoughts. I'm really thinking of a contemporary Lotus 7 or an Ariel Atom with better weather protection.

[riptide motorsport]

I want to be a beta builder....Put me in Dave Steven

[Dave Smith]

Kouros! Jim and I were talking about you on this. How are you man?! Solidworks has stepped up a bit to help with the design competiton. Jim s eye twitch seems to be getting better (kidding, he's doing greta). Ive owned and driven both GSXR motorcycles (1987 1100 beast and 2004 1000 insane-beast) and am NOT ashamed to say I drove an x19 out of college for 100k+ miles... the thing was cheap and fun to drive, you could literally throw the thing full speed into curves and it was like a slot car! Still had no power though. March 1 design competiton will be very interesting based on the ideas circulated here.

[Ike4]

I agree with simple and purist design. As Lotus use to say,"adds lightness". I like the Caterham 7 but it is ridiculously expensive with a Ford Focus motor. I currently live in Japan and could likely get a very low mile donor WRX at a low price, but it would be Right Hand Drive. Does anyone at FFR know if the donor steering system from the WRX would be used to the new kit build? If so I'll likely wait til I get back to the states to look for a donor.

[GAThunder019]

AMEN!! Those who do not have to face disabilities and/or limited mobility do not usually think about those who DO...
I am sure Olli is not purposefully ignoring that consideration, because I used to be in a similar mindset. I was VERY athletic...
until I was in an accident (NOT my fault of course!) and broke my back and rt hip, among other injuries. Does that have to mean
that from age 24 (age at time of accident) on I must be relegated to Town Cars and Minivans, and NO motorcycles?
Kerry is also correct about the ladies... No doors/difficult egress---"No Thank You!"

Floyd Burdett

[Hondaslayer]

I agree with simple and purist design. As Lotus use to say,"adds lightness". I like the Caterham 7 but it is ridiculously expensive with a Ford Focus motor. I currently live in Japan and could likely get a very low mile donor WRX at a low price, but it would be Right Hand Drive. Does anyone at FFR know if the donor steering system from the WRX would be used to the new kit build? If so I'll likely wait til I get back to the states to look for a donor.

It would make sense, though it would limit the choices somewhat (unless they had different subframes) as Subaru changed the mounts to a "cannon mount" starting around 2005 on some models.

As for design, a Lotus 7 with a hardtop is exactly what I had in mind. Minimal body panels (keeps cost down for FF) lightweight and badass looking.

[GUNS]

I think the design should be original, aggressive, but more importantly functional. I would like to see vents for brake cooling/engine cooling and an aerodynamic design that actually creates downforce.

[Roy Hewson]

Dave, I think your really on the right path of KISS! To stay in the cost goals, weight and world car criteria it has to be direct and to the point. That said it doesn't mean it can't be attractive and exciting. The Porsche 918 and Lotus 211 make a great example of what is considered exciting by today's crowd. You can't please everyone so please yourself (you haven't been far off so far. The cars mission statement is a winner in my book.
Roy

[thebeerbaron]

I am looking forward immensely to this design competition and to assembling my own as soon as possible. If I am reading the tea leaves correctly, I think Dave and Jim have a good idea of what they want to produce and I really hope they stick to their guns instead of letting this become a muddle of compromises.

Couple of quick questions:

Having never assembled a FF kit, but browsing the website, it looks like SAE hardware is the norm. If this is going to be a "World Platform" car, maybe it's time to go to metric fasteners? The engine and drivetrain are all metric, I'd hate to have to bring two toolboxes to the track for one little car. Let alone identifying them quickly by sight. I know this could devolve to a flame-war, but... I think having one coherent set of tools (DIN, JIS, ISO) would put this car in league with the non-kit cars.

Access, access, access.
1)
2)
It would be awesome if you could go from 1 to 2 with very little fuss, maybe even without tools (at builder's option).

1800lbs. Want. I'd love to be able to sneak in under that by eliminating bits and pieces. I'm an emaciated junior wookie and I worship in the cult of Colin Chapman. As Lotus moves away from that cult, maybe Factory Five can take their place as the source for lightweight cars.

[riptide motorsport]

I have to agree with...... thebeerbaron. Steven

[Magnus]

I too had hoped for something along the minimalist veins of a Super 7 or Ariel Atom. Perhaps the next vehicle can be a "less-is-more" kind of vehicle.
As for the current design, please keep the roll-over protection clean, either by making the windshield frame part of the rollbar or integrating the rollbard into the bodywork behind the cockpit

[GUNS]

I think this design has a lot of potential: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/c...ar-purity.html


It's a very wild design and i'm not sure it can be done at the given price point, but man that thing would look awesome coming down the street!

[thebeerbaron]

Steven - thanks, I'm glad I'm not the only one!

I too had hoped for something along the minimalist veins of a Super 7 or Ariel Atom. Perhaps the next vehicle can be a "less-is-more" kind of vehicle.
As for the current design, please keep the roll-over protection clean, either by making the windshield frame part of the rollbar or integrating the rollbard into the bodywork behind the cockpit

Magnus - I don't see why that wouldn't be possible as an alternative to the full-bodied kit. Maybe FF would be willing to sell the kit less body shell and let you put together your own exoskeleton with minimalist paneling. Lots of people around who can lay up fiberglass panels for you.

One of my issues with the Seven is that it has the aerodynamic properties of a brick. I see the bodywork as an opportunity to have Seven levels of fun per dollar, but with modern levels of slipperiness. Those exposed front wheels are cool and all, but a complete nightmare in terms of airflow...

[Hondaslayer]

Having never assembled a FF kit, but browsing the website, it looks like SAE hardware is the norm. If this is going to be a "World Platform" car, maybe it's time to go to metric fasteners? The engine and drivetrain are all metric, I'd hate to have to bring two toolboxes to the track for one little car. Let alone identifying them quickly by sight. I know this could devolve to a flame-war, but... I think having one coherent set of tools (DIN, JIS, ISO) would put this car in league with the non-kit cars.
.

HAS to be metric, no ifs ands or buts about it. Most common Subaru sizes are 10mm, 12mm, 14mm, 17mm, 19mm with a few oddball 22 and 32mm here and there.

[subyrod]

Dave and FFR R&D crew, here's my thoughts.

First of all, the 918 is a great design.


I agree, metric stuff to work with the rest of the suby parts. I'd love for the kit to utilize as much of the donor car as possible, suspension parts/arms/sway bars as there are tons of aftermarket for control arms, sways, etc. Also stuff like radiator. I'm not sure how easy it'd be to reuse heater/a/c stuff, but I know vintage air has been used on the Cobras and is likely a simpler, cheaper, smaller package compared to what is in the WRX. Also, steering gear and factory "Momo' steerign wheel with airbag (not a biggy if no airbag, but the wife would certainly appreciate it haha) and pedals which are aluminum. I have an STi interior, I'd love to reuse the STi factory seats in my wrx.

I'd also like to use the brakes/hubs like the Cobra so that we can use the 5x100 (WRX bolt pattern) and those that dare to venture with an STi which has 5x114.3 pattern to utilize the wheels available for those patterns. Lots of wheels for the suby guys. But, most are higher offset wheels (+40-50mm). With a rear set up, that would likely work well for the front, but I'm not sure, typically the rears will want lower offsets and wider.

My 02 WRX for example i'm running 17x7.5 +45mm offset with 225/45/17. For cost I'd like to keep those wheels (probably repowdercoat) and use 215/40/17 in front and 235/40/17 in the rear. Or, go for the gusto and get some 17x8 and 17x9 wheels and use 235/40/17 fronts and 255/40/17 rears. That'd look nice and meaty.

[Oppenheimer]

So will there be 'Powered by WRX' or 'Powered by Subaru' badges for the fenders?

Seriously though, for the paintless body panels, has anyone had any experience with those vinyl adhesive 'paint jobs'? Its a set of adhesive panels cut for the exact dimensions of your car. Instead of repainting, you just apply these 'decals'. They can print whatever wild graphics you want, flames, etc. These are not those 'ad-cars' you see where some real estate company has their logo all over the side of a Mini Cooper or a city bus, they are a real alternative to painting.

Sounds rather cheesy I know, but for something that just needs to look awsome from 5 feet away, and isn't intended as a show vehicle, they supposedly work. Would this be something do-able here (to keep manufacturing costs down, but still allow a variety of no-paint color options)?

Would buyers even want that?

[thebeerbaron]

Seriously though, for the paintless body panels, has anyone had any experience with those vinyl adhesive 'paint jobs'?

You mean like this?

License plate: GONE PLAID

My friend actually did this install (and co-drives the car). Yes, it is a totally legitimate option, but the key to it looking good is in the quality of the installer. I'm fairly certain it's cheaper than a paint job, but don't think this is something you can do on your own at home for free. Good quality vinyl is not exactly free and it really does take quite a bit of talent (and lots of hours) to get this to work.

[Bill_VA]

After driving tonight and seeing an Audi, I'd like this new car to incorporate either some existing tail lamps that incorporate LEDs, or have something custom made.

[riptide motorsport]

Remember, you can still paint it if you like, the graphics will run about the same as paint more or less.....Steven

[MikeK]

You mean like this?

License plate: GONE PLAID

My friend actually did this install (and co-drives the car). Yes, it is a totally legitimate option, but the key to it looking good is in the quality of the installer. I'm fairly certain it's cheaper than a paint job, but don't think this is something you can do on your own at home for free. Good quality vinyl is not exactly free and it really does take quite a bit of talent (and lots of hours) to get this to work.

OMG, is that a unfair example or what

[subyrod]

For exhaust, I think it must be a center exit with some diffuser strakes surrounding it. Sort of like the 918 rear end. THe 918 picture has side exit exhaust, but for cost and simplicity, going straight out the back (although the turbo is on the passenger side, so piping added to get to the center of the car would be needed). But, I like the diffuser in the rear lower valence, but add a single exhaust (maybe with a handsome twin tip ala factory WRX (but bigger diameter obviously) and single resonator. I ran a straight pipe with my wrx for awhile with just a catted downpipe. Sounds awesome. I'd want something very similar, but a high flow resonator would be enough to get it so its not too loud.

[subyrod]

Also, for maintenance purposes, working on an MR car from underneath is great. I can remember working on pops 914 from underneath. We simply drove it up onto those Sears standard ramps that get the car about a foot off the ground. So, maybe think about bodywork clearance when getting onto some standard ramps the average Joe will have.