Engine choices and lessons learned....

[anton]

For those who you who ALREADY own, built, and are driving your GTM, I'd like to get your feedback on your engine choice, why you chose it and what you like and don't like about the engine you decided on now that you've had some drivetime w/ it. Also, knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently in any aspect of owning/building the car?

[crash]

I don't mean to be rude, but these are questions that just about every potential builder seems to post.

While there are some good responses on this forum about these subjects, you should probably also do a search and read up on the "other forum".

I do believe that these two forums will answer just about everything you have asked there.

I'll PM you.

[keithinspace]

I very much apologize for being new to this forum as well. My first post was...well...ill-informed. I'm still learning about the vernacular of this car and the different terms used for different transmissions and the like. I was called out quickly, and that is fine.

I have been involved in two other forums for several years. One is related to my small estate tractor that I own (a Kubota BX2230) where owners of similar equipment trade their thoughts, upgrades, etc. The other is related to my family Travel Trailer where owners (and prospective owners) share information, insights, concerns, thoughts, upgrades, etc.

In both those forums, there are "newbies" that post the same old questions...what layout...where to start...how big (or small) is too big (or small)...which truck...which bucket...the same things that are answered over and over.

But this is the first time I've ever seen a response that shuts down a new poster in short order. I find it comical that I just looked over at the 818 forum and found a recent post from Dave Smith. An excerpt: "We cannot act condescending toward those of us who are less experienced, at the same time, we must respect the fact that there are those here with more experience than ourselves. If the experts don't respect the newbies for their desire to learn something new, they are no better than those who lash out because they feel belittled."

The thought of purchaing and building a GTM is VERY daunting. Similarly, the thought of scouring this, or any other, forum for consecutive days to collect bits of information is VERY daunting.

I don't know that there is a solution, but there isn't an overwhelming amount of activity on this forum. I'd hate to see folks stop visiting it for any reason. The knowledge base needs to continue to grow.

Perhaps the OP's question is just a tad broad, but I'm interested in some of the responses and return discussions that it MAY cultivate.

Again, I apologize for being new. But I'd be a little put out if the response to a question I may ask in the future is "do a search in this and another forum". That may be the answer to 90% of the threads started on this site...but that isn't any fun for anyone, is it?

[jjm]

Geeez.....a simple "I will do a search and post back any questions I might have" would have sufficed. Crash did start with "not to be rude but....".

[keithinspace]

Unfortunate. My only point was that I've CHOSEN to participate in several forums, contributing MANY, MANY hours of my time in helping folks feel welcome and responding to questions, no matter how trivial.

My brother and I are very serious about building side-by-side GTMs since he recently moved closer to me than he has lived in 20 years. With a great deal of excitement, this was the first place I came to start cultivating "GTM Friendships".

But if the posts in this thread are considered "rolling out the welcome mat", I'll CHOOSE to spend my time elsewhere.

I don't mean to be rude, but apparently new-and-learning members aren't as welcome here as I would have hoped and it is very likely that I won't return for some time.

Good day.

[Martin]

keithinspace - first off, welcome to the forum.

Second, hang around for a while.

Crash is known for having an opinion, and a strong one at that. Sometimes he rubs people up the wrong way, but you would be hard pressed to find many people on the forum with more knowledge than him. to his credit he takes the time to write up in detail a lot of his work and developments.

Stick around, you will get all the info you need here.

I am ordering my mk4 tomorrow, so I can't help myself. But some of the most scientific and robust discussions take place in the gtm forum, so I hang around to learn.

Hopefully we will see you back here sometime soon.

Martin

Unfortunate. My only point was that I've CHOSEN to participate in several forums, contributing MANY, MANY hours of my time in helping folks feel welcome and responding to questions, no matter how trivial.

My brother and I are very serious about building side-by-side GTMs since he recently moved closer to me than he has lived in 20 years. With a great deal of excitement, this was the first place I came to start cultivating "GTM Friendships".

But if the posts in this thread are considered "rolling out the welcome mat", I'll CHOOSE to spend my time elsewhere.

I don't mean to be rude, but apparently new-and-learning members aren't as welcome here as I would have hoped and it is very likely that I won't return for some time.

Good day.

[Gopher]

What happened to treat new users with respect "crash"?

[Cobra 61]

Why is everyone piling on Mike? I thought his response was pretty helpful and a follow up PM to help search?
UH....pretty good service if you ask me.....Let me see. he said the topic has been covered a billion times. Offered places to look for the information....and... followed up. Sounds like pretty good facts and PR to me...I wish I had that kind of responses every time I ask a question that I knew little about.

my 61 cents

[Linxs]

Why is everyone piling on Mike? I thought his response was pretty helpful and a follow up PM to help search?
UH....pretty good service if you ask me.....Let me see. he said the topic has been covered a billion times. Offered places to look for the information....and... followed up. Sounds like pretty good facts and PR to me...I wish I had that kind of responses every time I ask a question that I knew little about.

my 61 cents

I agree, and I could not have said it better, so I will not try.

Going back to the original posters question. Please take a little time to search there is a lot of knowledge posted already between the 2 boards. It's not that we do not want to answer your questions. We are here to help each other out so do a little research and then fire away!

[Nuul]

I'm still learning about the vernacular of this car and the different terms used for different transmissions and the like.

I know exactly what you mean. I've had to Google quite a few terms and companies. Kempo's thread yielded quite a few useful bookmarks for when I start my build

[VD2021]

For those who you who ALREADY own, built, and are driving your GTM, I'd like to get your feedback on your engine choice, why you chose it and what you like and don't like about the engine you decided on now that you've had some drivetime w/ it. Also, knowing what you know now, what would you have done differently in any aspect of owning/building the car?

Welcome to the madness.

My GTM is not complete, but I have put just under 30 miles on it since I started karting (I like to call it testing). I purchased a 2003 LS6 with just over 15k that was salvaged by Corvette Recycler from a stolen Z06.

I have a custom CAI (which looks just like the FFR one) and a set of BBK short headers flowing through the kit's catalytic convertors and a set of high flow turbo mufflers.

The last 3-5 miles driven have been with the body on.

After seeing Jud's GTM on Horsepower and Keith's on Two Guy's Garage I started researching. I discovered, just like you, that the engine choice was an important decision. I came to the decision that an LS6 would be the right choice for me after meeting Keith. He has a modified LS1 in his GTM. The acceleration was awesome. My comparison was limited to a stock Dodge Viper and stock Z06. After talking for hours and discussing what my plans were with my build, He suggested that I go with an LS6.

I have yet to break 75mph, but I can tell you that it has awesome acceleration. With the active handling in comp mode or off I can break the tires going into 3rd gear. The tires on my GTM right now are almost new Mich A/S Sports not some slick stand-ins.

What would I have done differently? I would have put the headers on prior to installing the engine. It wasn't bad; it just took more time swapping them. I am considering an upgraded TB and intake later; these can be easily installed in the future.

Pros:
More than enough HP and Tq. (My GTM will be a street car and may never see a track)
Proper operation of the VA HVAC (Using the corvettes stock pressure switch)
Cruise control using the column switches
Already broken in

Cons:
Used engine so you'll want to ensure it’s operating perfectly prior to donor tear down or try to purchase from a reputable vendor to mitigate some of the risk.

I also suggest reading all of the engine threads you can find on the other forum. Here is a link to the one I read first when doing engine selection research. http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fact...ce-street.html

[crash]

Sorry if my response rubbed some the wrong way.

Seeing as though I know there is a bit of friction between the owners of the two boards, I thought it prudent to just send the OP a PM with a link to the GTM forum on the "other" site.

At this point, IMHO, there really is no better data base than that other forum for general info.

This posting on both forums is such a PITA. I really wish that the other forums GTM data could be folded into this forums, since THIS is the official FFR forum, but oh well. I lived through CART and IRL, I can get through this too.

BTW- When I first went on the other forum your questions are EXACTLY what I asked also. Almost verbatim. I received, IIRC, a simple, to the point answer. "Do a search". I was trying to be a bit more helpful.

On a side note, and I think others will back me on this, if you don't have the time/patience to extensively read these forums, then you don't have the time/patience to build a GTM. They take alot of both, and also require a pretty good amount of budget...and then some.

[Nuul]

My GTM is not complete, but I have put just under 30 miles on it since I started karting (I like to call it testing). I purchased a 2003 LS6 with just over 15k that was salvaged by Corvette Recycler from a stolen Z06.

Vidal,

Thanks for posting the info you do on your website. For guys like myself weighing if this is even a feasbile project it helps tremendously. I'm actually taking a page from your book and epoxying my garage this weekend. Hey, even if I don't do the build it still looks nice.

As for your donor car, how badly was it damaged in the wreck? The reason I ask is because my brother owns a body shop so I can probably locate a donor pretty easily through his network. The issue with something on a slavage title is that I don't really trust many of the parts outside the engine. I could be overthinking this though

[skullandbones]

What Crash said about the depth of knowledge and resources can not be understated! I am building a MkIII roadster and the finished product will be
$20 k+. I've heard 260 to 300 hrs is the assembly estimate. I can't begin to tell you how much time I have spent re-educating myself after being away from working on cars for a while. After following some of the threads on the GTM, IMHO it is a much bigger project by several factors. I still can't get over having to spent 10 K for a transaxle. They say, "with great risk comes great rewards". Well, this is a perfect example of that. And by the way, I don't mean to deminish what the roadster guys are doing because many of them could do a great job on the GTM. Good luck, WEK.

[keithinspace]

...if you don't have the time/patience to extensively read these forums, then you don't have the time/patience to build a GTM...

I fully and completely concede the point.

I'm a Mechanical Engineer and a car nut who has been a Civil Engineer for 12+ years and haven't owned a 'toy' car in longer than that. I also have 5 and 7 YO kids that are still a smidge too young to appreciate the time I'm in the garage, or have the dexterity to assist. Pile on top of that the fact that I own my own business and when business is "good", I'm working 70 to 100 hour weeks. And when business is "bad", I don't have money to invest in a car I can't drive.

Point is, my challenges are great, but my desire is also great. The idea of building a car with my own two hands that will spank the living stink out of nearly every other car on the planet, purchased at any cost, is very desireable. I just hope I can pull it all together and purchase the kit!

I appreciate Mr. VD2021's response and look forward to contributing in a like manner once I have more to contribute!

Didn't mean to speak out of turn. My apologies.

[Presto51]

Welcome to the madness, I think you will find this site and the other site addictive.

Also as a starting point look at this site by forum member Spytech, as a good comprehensive build guide for you also http://www.gtm-supercar.com

Then there is Pete Doves build site. Dave Borden build site. Then there is……..Shoot man start here and then search http://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fact...questions.html

BTW Don’t mind Crash too much he’s like Comet at times, but a good guy. Just remember he is a vendor and he will look at your wallet like I look at a women cleavage, If you know what I mean

[crash]

Presto- I have no idea what you are talking about but if cleavage is involved...I'm with ya!

Anton- You may also want to visit this thread...

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-What-YOU-Need...


LOL

[LCD Gauges]

All I have to say is:

No matter what you build, make sure you can put the power to the ground.

I can't imagine more than 500 HP in this car; my previous vehicle weighed 3500+ lbs with 440 at the wheel. It was like driving on ice through 1st gear,
and most of 2nd with a good chirp into 3rd.

That same motor in the GTM would be deadly and frankly a waste if the suspension/gearing/tire combo couldn't make the best of it.

[anton]

This is all some very informative information. Vidal, thanks for your input on the question. Everyone else, thanks for directing me to the information I'm looking for. It would be really nice to have a discusssion in the forum dedicated specifically for "the new guy". I actually have been reading a lot but so much of this information is found all over the place and it's pretty daunting to find it all. Please excuse my "newness" into all of this.

[crash]

Please see "$64K Questions" that is stickied at the top of the GTM forum on the other site...

[VD2021]

Vidal,

Thanks for posting the info you do on your website. For guys like myself weighing if this is even a feasbile project it helps tremendously. I'm actually taking a page from your book and epoxying my garage this weekend. Hey, even if I don't do the build it still looks nice.

As for your donor car, how badly was it damaged in the wreck? The reason I ask is because my brother owns a body shop so I can probably locate a donor pretty easily through his network. The issue with something on a slavage title is that I don't really trust many of the parts outside the engine. I could be overthinking this though

You're welcome and I'm just paying it forward. I studied Spytech's website almost daily while I planned and waited for my kit. Nothing against any picture log, but Spytech's site broke new ground for not just showing pictures, but adding detailed instruction and build information. I still go there if I’m looking for a specific picture and information on the build.

Progress has been slower than I would like lately. A large portion of my Saturdays are consumed with my Son's Peewee football games.

Be sure to take the second step on the garage floor and get the clear topcoat. The base kit with the flakes is not durable and will chip easily. The clear top coat adds a lot of durability. I've dropped a tool from time to time and it holds up extremely well. The best part is it makes for easy clean up.

Maybe I was just extremely lucky with my donor. I won the Coparts auction for $4500. The location was in Miami so it was in my drive way the next day for only $102 open trailer. It ran perfectly. There was no MIL. Every System in the car worked. Even the head and fog lights. The tires are almost new (Michelin A/S Sport). I'll sell them to offset the new wheels I will purchase. The main reason I did not have a fear of the engine (though it ran perfectly) was that I already had my 2003 LS6 sitting in a crate in my garage.

I understand your concern on the unknown of how the engine has been treated on any used vehicle. What you will find is that the majority of the builders that use the donor engines have planned an overhaul and/or upgrade to both mitigate the risk and add performance.

[VD2021]

At this point, IMHO, there really is no better data base than that other forum for general info.

This posting on both forums is such a PITA. I really wish that the other forums GTM data could be folded into this forums, since THIS is the official FFR forum, but oh well. I lived through CART and IRL, I can get through this too.

BTW- When I first went on the other forum your questions are EXACTLY what I asked also. Almost verbatim. I received, IIRC, a simple, to the point answer. "Do a search". I was trying to be a bit more helpful.

On a side note, and I think others will back me on this, if you don't have the time/patience to extensively read these forums, then you don't have the time/patience to build a GTM. They take alot of both, and also require a pretty good amount of budget...and then some.

Mike,
Ditto.

[The Stig]

All I have to say is:

No matter what you build, make sure you can put the power to the ground.

I can't imagine more than 500 HP in this car; my previous vehicle weighed 3500+ lbs with 440 at the wheel. It was like driving on ice through 1st gear,
and most of 2nd with a good chirp into 3rd.

That same motor in the GTM would be deadly and frankly a waste if the suspension/gearing/tire combo couldn't make the best of it.

I would have to say that I agree with 00SS_M6LS1 100%. You can get to the point (very quickly) where higher horsepower really doesn't matter, unless you have some way of making sure that it can be transferred to the pavement. SpyTech had a post, not long ago, regarding a traction control system that could be used on the GTM. That looked like a really good idea. Even then, I would have a hard time trying to justify using anything more than a stock LS7.

I'm using a stock LS2 (Because the LS3's hadn't come out yet when I bought it). It cost me $4900.00, in the crate and shipped. It is rated for 400 hp with 400 ft lbs of torque. Believe me, with a car that only weighs between 2300 to 2500 lbs., there's plenty of horse power there to either have you grinning for days, or scare the hell right out of you.

The LS2's have been discontinued, and were replaced by the LS3. But there are still some out there at very good prices... I think if it were me, I'd go with the LS3. It really packs a large punch and is a great value for the money spent. I think they started out around $7500.00, but the price seems to be coming down now. I've seen them listed between 5000.00 and 6500.00. If you buy a crate engine, make sure that you either have an invoice that shows it paid in full. You'll need that when you're ready to register the car in your state. If you go the donor route, make sure that you keep the title that shows the VIN number of the car to match to the engine in your GTM. That's the only way to prove that you really own the engine. Unless you get a bill of sale from the previous owner that spells it out.

I would take the money that you save, and invest it in a really good transaxle and suspension. I feel that this is really about where you draw the line between drive-ability and fun, and cooking the rear tires through the gears and hoping that you keep it on the asphalt and pointed in the right direction. That's one of the reasons that I decided to put a set 335's on the back of my car. I figure they will offer a bit more traction. Plus I think they look good on the GTM. (But that's just me).

There are a couple of routes to take for the gearbox.

1). you can call California Motorsports and talk to Roger Brown or Erik Johnson. They have a couple of deals going right now that allows you to buy a re-manufactured G50/03 (Standard Porsche gearbox), or G96/96 (Porsche GT3) for reasonable money. or

2). you can wait until Mendeola has worked it's way through it's initial wave of orders for the SDR transaxle that they have developed for the GTM. That choice originally came with it's own list of positives and negatives, but it looks like they may have finally been sorted out.

Either choice will more than likely work well for you. But again, make SURE that you have a Bill of sale from the previous owner, or an invoice that shows you as the owner.

Hope this helps.

[Nuul]

I won the Coparts auction for $4500.

I had not heard of copart, thanks for that I'll keep an eye on that site. $4500 is a steal, hopefully I can find one for that. I talked to my brother earlier today and asked him to start scouting the auctions for one. He said people aren't buying wrecked cars to fix up as much these days so it looks to be a good time to be a buyer.

I understand your concern on the unknown of how the engine has been treated on any used vehicle. What you will find is that the majority of the builders that use the donor engines have planned an overhaul and/or upgrade to both mitigate the risk and add performance.

This is one area I'm willing to spend some time and money, the donor engine is definitely getting a rework. I don't want to get to carried away with the modifications though since there is a limit to how much power the GTM can put to the ground.

[crash]

The only limit to getting power to the ground is your wallet.

Plenty of technology available to put 1000HP to the ground, but it will cost you.

[Roger Reid]

...Plenty of technology available to put 1000HP to the ground, but it will cost you.

Crash, you are teasing us again. We know about the Racelogic traction control system. What else can put traction to the ground?

[spytech]

Awd

[ArtGirl]

On a side note, and I think others will back me on this, if you don't have the time/patience to extensively read these forums, then you don't have the time/patience to build a GTM.

I'll back crash up on this.

In my opinion, I think you'd be nuts to purchase the kit without reading these forums in their entirety before making that commitment. I think there would be significantly fewer unfinished cars for sale if everyone took this advice. I read the entire manual and then read virtually every thread on the forum, and then added a binder full of notes to the manual before I felt I was in a position to make a decision on a GTM. My impression changed significantly from the first read of the manual to the end of the 12 months researching a build.

[LCD Gauges]

I'll back crash up on this.

In my opinion, I think you'd be nuts to purchase the kit without reading these forums in their entirety before making that commitment. I think there would be significantly fewer unfinished cars for sale if everyone took this advice. I read the entire manual and then read virtually every thread on the forum, and then added a binder full of notes to the manual before I felt I was in a position to make a decision on a GTM. My impression changed significantly from the first read of the manual to the end of the 12 months researching a build.

Agree.

I wont even go into the garage until my mind is free and clear. As soon as I'm feeling frustrated, tired, or unmotivated it's time to stop. Every step is
carefully completed with attention to detail. There will be no cut corners on this build even if it takes twice as long to assemble. It's the reason why
I'm only 10 hours into the build and the car has been here for a month.

Be ready for a boat-load of challenges, and hours of research at the computer/instruction manual.

[Nuul]

I read the entire manual and then read virtually every thread on the forum, and then added a binder full of notes to the manual before I felt I was in a position to make a decision on a GTM.

That's a wonderful idea. Did you call FF and order one or do they have a PDF of it somewhere?

[VD2021]

That's a wonderful idea. Did you call FF and order one or do they have a PDF of it somewhere?

You can order a digital or printed version from their website at $9.99 and $39.99.

https://factoryfiveparts.com/home.php?cat=287

The manual and the "links to $64k question" sticky should be the first reads of anyone considering making the kit purchase.

[Nuul]

Thanks bro, I just ordered the digital copy. I'm starting to work my way through the 64K sticky in the other forum too

[crash]

If you go to an after market stand alone ECU like a Haltech, Motec, Life Racing, Bosch, Pectel, etc. you will have all the traction control you need. Combine that with modern DOT race tire, or straight out race tire technology($$$) and modern performance shock technology-Penske, Quantum, Ohlins, etc. and you can get 2000 HP to the ground without too much danger, relative of course, but it's not going to be cheap!

[Kalstar]

Welcome to the addiction.

I believe I am the only one using the 5.3. I had chosen this engine for three reasons. First was cost, second, power output and lastly, thicker walls to allow for more boost presures. The engine (L33) with a mild cam produces hp levels of 380-400 NA Crank hp. With the thicker walls more boost can be added safely. This engine has been budget built to withstand 800+hp. As for cost....$750.00 purchased me a fully dressed 29,000 mile engine with a stock output only 15hp less than the LS1 with much better heads (243), stronger rods and better pistons. With this engine running a MP70 non-intercooled @8psi, power will peak at about 675hp all for under $2,500 using quality Tial BOV and Tial Wastgate with new Master Power 70mm turbo. With an intercooler and 1bar boost, 850hp would not be out of the question. This was my original goal but I have backed off "big power" due to transacle constrains.

That said, I would not do it again. A lot of time and money was spent changing over the accs needed to run the engine. Water pumps, pullies, drive accs, oil pan, DBW, and the biggest was the wire harness. I ended up going aftermarket harness so the Vortec TB,TCM, ECU would communicate with the Vette stuff including the gas pedal and pumps. There was still a cost savings over the LS1 and I do feel the 5.3 is the better choice for my single turbo set up but if your doing it solely to save money....don't do it.

[shinn497]

That is a alot of power using FI. Is this more of a track car?

[Kalstar]

That is a alot of power using FI. Is this more of a track car?

Here is a good read.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...2/viewall.html

Basically 600 hp with a smaller cam, inferior heads and a high milage iron block (my engine is all aluminum)

Here is a video of the set up I am gunning for (also a L33) here it is running a 9sec 1/4 (he has since ran a 8.98 sec 1/4 with this set up turning up the boost)

http://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-ind...-sec-pass.html

My GTM will be a street car, little to no track.

[MTSCustoms]

While I cannot say much about what engine is good or not for the gtm, I have a lot of experience with LS-based engines. My first car was a 98 WS6 Trans am and that was stock. A good amount of power for the street, but gets boring very quickly.

Next was a 99 Camaro that went from bolt ons and nitrous to cam only. It put down about 350whp but transmission issues held it back. That car was really fast and packed quite a punch.

Lastly, the car I sold in order to fund the GTM was my 98 Trans Am with an iron 408 stroker motor, forged internals, ported LS6 heads... This engine made 408whp though an unlocked converter(locked would have been about 440-450). This car went 11.8 in street form with 19" wheels and street tires. It was VERY fast, especially for a 3600lb boat.

That being said, I chose to go with a cammed LS1, which will easly put 380-400hp to the wheels. I bought the longblock with no intake or fuel rails or injectors for $750. The cam package, high flow oil pump, roller timing set, LS6 intake with valley cover and coolant pipes were all bought brand new. Total cost after fuel rails, injectors, manifolds, and coils/brackets will be roughly $2500 and will have been torn down by myself and rebuilt with all new gaskets and bead blasted to look brand new.

Like I said, I cannt speak from GTM experience, but seeing that it weighs about 2/3 of what the cars I am used to driving im sure it will be borderline violent.

On a side note - On FFR's website they tested their LS6 powered GTM and it did 0-60 in 3.2 and 1/4 mile in 11.4... That is an extremely fast street car and a stock LS6 puts only about 365hp to the ground