Just a Quiet Evening in the Neighborhood......

[vnmsss]

[fact5racer]

WOW! Honey Badger made great time!

[Martin]

Honey Badger? Is that the name of the truck?

Assuming that is the SEMA truck, I thought Mark Dougherty was driving it down this year.

Of course, Mark might be alarmed to hear that his nickname is now Honey Badger if that isn't the name of the truck.

Martin

[riptide motorsport]

Please leak us some photos of the 818 bodies...........or only me in a PM at least!!! Pretty please!!!!

[Hankl]

Please leak us some photos of the 818 bodies...........or only me in a PM at least!!! Pretty please!!!!

Nothing to do with 818's...............................

Hank

[vnmsss]

On my way to the shop......It's like Christmas morning out here....... K

[Movieman]

I know what it is. Saw it last Saturday..

[vnmsss]

I present to you the first of several "Spec" Coupes which will be built specifically for racing in 2012. A small, but mighty group of very talented craftsmen, engineers, and owner-builders have been skunk-working this project behind the scenes for nearly two years, and today is a truly exciting day.



When we began our Coupe project almost three years ago, I could not have imagined the passion for racing that exisits within the Coupe owners group. The heritage of these cars has made the Coupes one of the most sought-after and well-recognized cars in the automotive world. Owning a Coupe is an experience like no other, and campaigning a Coupe in pure competition is indescribeable.

Big thanks to Hank Lopez (Hankl) who has been my "go-to" guy in our Coupe racing effort. Over the three years we've been developing and testing our car for pure competition, Hank has spent virtually hundreds of hours debriefing every event with me; listening patiently as I ramble on with the details of the car's nuances in the turns, or exit speeds and characteristics of the car's handling as it tracks out onto the straights...Slowly, deliberatively, Hank would take it all in, all the while asking focused questions to better understand the car's dynamics. As a person of action, Hank would then take ideas formulated in these conversations, and build, create, or improve upon the car's components......Often, he'd call days later, informing me that a drop shipment of "good stuff" was in the mail.....Simply amazing!

Big thanks to Dave Smith for believing in us, for encouraging and supporting our racing efforts over the years, and for helping make this next generation of race cars possible. We also owe a debt of gratitude to Factory Five's lead engineer, and on-track racing talent Jim Schenck, whose passion for racing, collaborative efforts, and pure design genious continue to serve as the rock upon which all Factory Five Racing efforts are based. We are grateful to the entire team at Factory Five Racing for their efforts to support the racing community over the years...Jason, Sally, Jesper, and everyone at FFR...Thank you!

Fellow Challenge Series racer and truly amazing friend, Rick Anderson will serve a lead fabricator for the Coupe project...He's promised to keep an eye on my welding skills, and I've promised not to hurt him with the plasma cutter..;.) RLA Sheetmetal in Healdsburg, CA will serve as the Coupe's build site, and under Rick's talented skills as a builder, our Coupes will be safe and Very Fast!


After six years of ownership, 210 competition events, 34 race victories, 77 podiums, five championships, 22,000 road miles, and all this shared with an amazing partner, an unbelieveable race team and a truly supportive group of friends......My first kit arrives!!! It really IS like Christmas! Karen

[johngeorge]

more pictures please!!!

[Jacob McCrea]

Wow, this is great news! Congrats on getting a new race car, Karen! I can't wait to hear more about this project!

[vnmsss]

Thanks Jacob!! Here's a couple more pics from this morning.....John...The #85 pics are on Danica's camera.....She's here and safe....Lots of company in the garage.....



At 6'4", Rick was eyeing the 55 degree laid back seat position.....Uh, nice try...No.

[Movieman]

I can see it now..
A year or two from today a new challenge series JUST for coupes!
Best of luck with your new car.

[Hankl]

Big thanks to Hank Lopez (Hankl) who has been my "go-to" guy in our Coupe racing effort. Over the three years we've been developing and testing our car for pure competition, As a person of action, Hank would then take ideas formulated in these conversations, and build, create, or improve upon the car's components......Often, he'd call days later, informing me that a drop shipment of "good stuff" was in the mail.....Simply amazing!

One thing I'd like to say for clarity, all of the changes and improvements to Karen's car have been a result of, "Engineering In The Clouds". People from different sides of the country have gotten together with the common goal of making the FFR Coupe in general, and Karen's Coupe in particular, better with new ideas and innovative changes. I am just a small part of the "Brain Trust" as Karen puts it, that has been involved in this. The suspension changes, such as moving the shock from the inner rear, to the forward outer position, was a idea that our own Mark Dougherty had come up with. I was just a little less busy than he was, so I got to make the parts to accomplish his idea. Andy Salvaggio was the master installer of the system, and Karen was the beneficiary of the performance increase.

I do have to tell the Coupe builders, and the FFR community in general, that for us, the nuts with their heads in the "Clouds", this is all about "Improving The Breed". Taking advantage of the opportunity, of what Dave and Mark Smith started with Factory Five, is not necessarily what they had in mind, but I know that they are amazed at what we are doing with their products.

Some of us are "Boomers", some younger, some in the middle, but our dreams bond us together, and the dream is one born in a place where we once wished upon a star, of piloting a car that was of our own creation, that had magical powers, to return us to that place in our lives, where everything could and would be possible.

Hank


P.S. From the Top Gun line, "Not one pair, Two Pair". In this case, you only see one Coupe, but there are two of them there, a sister Race Coupe to Karens, I won't spill the beans, I'll let the new builder pop in and take a bow!!

[vnmsss]

Thanks Hank.....Back in 2009, I thought posting a small note on the Type-65 Coupe forum, letting folks know that we were building a Coupe for the 25 Hours might be of interest to a few people....What followed, still to this day, simply amazes me....More than 20,000 views and hundreds of posts later, we had found the support of an amazing "braintrust" of individuals who's passion for these cars became a fountain of information. David Borden, Mark Dougherty, Russ Thompson, Ken Stroh, and so many others, who are still here building and enjoying their cars today, all stepped in to help.

The cars are "cozy" this evening......

[fact5racer]

Honeybadger is the new nickname to the new FFR driver Scott. The guys at Musclecar TV gave it to him

Honey Badger? Is that the name of the truck?

Assuming that is the SEMA truck, I thought Mark Dougherty was driving it down this year.

Of course, Mark might be alarmed to hear that his nickname is now Honey Badger if that isn't the name of the truck.

Martin

[NicksPapaw]

Merry Christmas Karen!! I have watched your journey from afar, and always cheer when you and the team have great things happen. Can't wait to see you racing that thing.

[riptide motorsport]

Great world we livein, these new Coupes should make a significant imact on the racetack........good deal!

[Garry Bopp]

Karen,

You never cease to amaze me! What y'all have done for us coupesters is truly inspirational. Special thanks to all who have helped out your efforts in so many ways. I'm sure Andy is looking down with a huge smile on his face and a big "thumbs up!"

Garry

[tcoon]

I guess it's time for me to chime in as owner/builder of mystery coupe #2. Having been the owner of a sweet ****** Daytona continuation coupe for the last 2 years, I have experienced first hand the amazing effect these cars have on the motoring public. My one limited track day experience convinced me that these coupes are made to be flogged on the track! Problem is, my current car is primarily a show/investment vehicle, and I wanted the full Factory Five experience.

Now finishing my third season as challenge series driver, we seem to be at a crossroads with the series. West Coast drivers have mostly gone on to other marques, and I am faced with driving nearly alone or switching to TT and enduro. When Karen began talking about building a spec series coupe and hanging out with the likes of Hank Lopez and Russ Thompson, the only obvious answer was "I'm in!" My goal is to build a FFR-X challenge car "plus" to up the ante and build toward the legendary reputation these cars deserve. Low weight, more power, better brakes and enduro proven reliability...now THAT is a package! I look forward to more of the great camaraderie and community support that are the hallmarks of this amazing group. viva le Coupe!

-T

[vnmsss]

Really glad we'll be building together Tom.....You've been a great supporter of the Challenge Series here on the West Coast, and this new adventure should be lots of fun!

John Card has been another key individual in the development of this project, and has been our go-to guy for all things related to the powertrain. John's tuning talent brought our 331 motor to life for last year's 25 Hours, and his ability to tune the car for optimum performance is what's kept us competitive on track all year. When we switched to the 302-based powerplant last year, I worked with Tom at DSS to design a motor that would pull like a freight train through 6,000 rpm, and then asked John to tune it for optimum speed and reliability. Under his guidance, and using the DIY MegaSquirt computer, our motor has brought us just that....We're currently holding a strong 1st place in EO class as we head into the 25 Hours, and much of that is due to John's efforts to give us a well-tuned motor.

One more note about the Spec Coupes....
There's actually a trifecta of Coupes being built for competition, with the beta-Coupe having already been delivered and the build underway for several months now. Hank and I have been working with owner #3 for more than six months on the design, spec and build for that car...In time, the third builder may choose to weigh in here as well......The only hint I'll give is that it probably took less than a day's drive to deliver Spec Coupe #3 from its birthplace in Wareham, MA to its new home......

If anyone has been sitting on the fence about racing a Coupe, and you're thinking you'd like to be part of something truly special, we'd be glad to have you join the design and build team.

Karen

K

[johngeorge]

Boy, a coupe with one of them new 5.0L Coyote motors would be a rocket ship hehehe

Good luck Karen and all, cant wait to see them getting built and on track.

[FFRSpec72]

Congrats, keep us posted on the build progress, can't wait to see this effort

[JimWilson]

as it exists so far? Or is it too early yet?

I'm personally excited by the notion of a Challenge Coupe build-plan that would provide a 'between the lines' coloring book for building an extraordinarily competent track Coupe. I'd view this build-plan as the new baseline for the Coupe for those who want to continue on to create a world-class gran turismo to their taste.

[vnmsss]

In our work with the Coupe platform, it became evident early on that any project that would have the goal of creating a Coupe for the track, would have to start with the development of a completely Club Code and Regulation (CCR) compliant cage and frame. We have been working with officials from the National Auto Sport Association (NASA) and the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) for the last six months to design just such a cage, with the goal of providing Coupe builders a set of supplemental build instructions which, when followed would result in a sanctioned cage for the Coupe which would be recognized by these two organizations as meeting safety compliance and deemed "track ready." A by-product of the frame and cage design work, which is done for the purpose of safety, will be a resulting increase in frame rigidity (a much welcome improvement for the Coupes).

The notion of adding the Coupes to the exisiting Challenge Series has been discussed at length within the online forums, as well as within the community of Challenge Series racers. It's become evident to me that the debate over the potential aero advantage and the endless discussions as to how to create parity would never be fully resolved. The resistance to adding the Coupes to the Series had became a roadblock to development of the cars. We're moving on, and simply developing a series of Coupes, all built to a "spec," and then gathering data regarding performance......Hence, the Spec Coupes.

These cars are being built to a high degree of relevance across a number of racing venues. Within NASA, they would be built to compete within the same race group as the FFR Challenge Series competitors, however, the cars are being built to NASA ST-2, TTS, and Enduro EO spec. As planned now, the Coupes will run:
302-based, 331 CID engine
EFI, w/tuneable computer
TKO-600R trans
3-Link
8.8 solid axle rear (Moser)
3.27 gear ratio
Brake package being finalized
Tire/wheel package being finalized

The stroked motor will provide the Coupes with the ability to dial in performance to meet a range of competition venues and sanctioing body rules. It's understood that folks building these cars may initially be competing within whatever sanctioing body offers the largest opportunity in their local area (region), and these Coupes need to be relevant on the landscape withing which their owners are competing. The target is 325 wheel hp, with the ability to dial up to 350 hp and down to 290 hp through the use of a versatile and easy to tune computer. Target weight will be 2490 lbs. (or less if we're good at this)

Lots of pieces still in development within the build team....We also know that posting the "specs" will garner lots of opinions, and the discussion is welcome, as this is how developments and advancements for these cars happens.....What about using Coyote motors, why not IRS, this brake package or that, and what about ??? are all good questions and topics for discussion.

Our primary goal in this project however, is to take what we know and get a group of Coupes built and on track in competition so data can be gathered on performance. We're going with a proven engine package and suspension parts that provide a dynamic balance of performance, availablity, and cost effectiveness. Yes, these cars could be built with much bigger motors and for a whole lot more money....I'll get the popcorn and watch that effort....For us, this is the path we've chosen, and we're looking forward to the future...The time for a group of Coupes racing alongside each other in competition is long overdue, and we're excited to be moving forward with this project.

Karen

[Hankl]

Hi Guys & Gals,

I just came back from our first meeting of the Spec Coupe builders, sadly, Karen was not able to be there, so we used Her chassis for Plasma Torch practice.........PSYCH!!

While Karen encourages discussion as to the direction we're headed in, I would like anyone who has the inkling to comment on the plans, to read the two NASA documents below. By reading these two pertinent list of rules and regulations, you'll be able to see why decisions are being made, or not made. I have lately seen heated discussions at the 818 forum, between people who have opinions, but don't even have a car to base opinions and /or direction on. So I'd like this to stay a friendly and courteous exchange of ideas and opinions.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Super-Touring.pdf

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

I noted the mention of a Ford Coyote motor, while it's totally in the realm of possibilities, that motor will not be a factor in any of the decisions, as the current 4 Coupes are being constructed(Yes, "Not One Pair, TWO PAIR"). This has more to do with economics, than it does with anything else. The cost of the complete Coyote, vs. a 331 is significant, considering the complex computer system, and the initial cost difference between ready to run motors. The 3 link was selected for simplicity, but is not mandated by the current rules, again, the 3 link performs well, we have tons of set-up information for it, and is less costly than the IRS. That being said, there will continue more development of the IRS for racing applications, so if you have a IRS Coupe, that you may want to make a "Track Car", we will encourage your efforts. We are pressing forward with the mandate of making this cost effective for everyone, and we will stay with the "KISS"(Keep It Simple STUPID!)principle.

As you read through the NASA doc's, ST2 is for all intents and purposes, is a class where your HorsePower is controlled by the weight of the car. You are allowed 1 HP for every 8.70 pounds of car weight, at the max weight for our roll cages, 2,999lbs, you would be allowed 344 HP at the rear wheels. At Karen's target weight of 2490, you would be allowed 286 HP at the rear wheels. So you can see, that the class, with which ever model of car you select(this is for you Roadster guys that want to play with us!), or weight you build to, will be on equal footing when it comes to HP to Weight ratio, the rules also have penalties for better aero, so the "Flying Brick"(Roadster) is still on equal footing.

Some may say that ST1 is an option, but here the game gets expensive. With a Coupe that weighs 2490, to be in the running, we would need to produce 452 HP at the rear wheels(according to John Card's information below, the Coyote will produce about 372, well short of what a lite weight Coupe will need in ST1), a 2999 weight Coupe needs 545 at the wheels, so it gets REALLY expensive to play in that sandbox, with the engines needed to produce that type of HP for 25 hours straight, and not turn into scrap metal on the front stretch! I think you guys get the idea........

Thanks for support of Karen's great work, and let's get more Coupes built for the Track!!

Hank

[Movieman]

Since it's late here I'll toss in a little levity:
IF I were ever so crazed as to get on a track at the same time as Karen I'd NEED that Coyote's motor extra HP just to keep from being lapped every 3 minutes!
Every FOUR I could live with, Three no!
Best of luck with what you folks are doing..Sounds like a winner.

[FFRSpec72]

As planned now, the Coupes will run:
302-based, 331 CID engine
EFI, w/tuneable computer

So just wonder why not a stock 302 with the upper end that they are planning for the Spec Racer next year as that will be in the same HP range and have a common engine between them? I like the idea of a new tuneable ECU.


Because size (torque) matters.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of upping the ante with the new Challenge Series upgrades (which BTW are welcomed, and to date have not been officially released in their entirety). Challenge Series races held back east have a nice compliment (5-9) guys to race against at any event...If you build one of these cars somewhere else in the country, you will likely need to be able to run against some pretty big cars in whatever class is available within the sanctioing body hosting local events....I think with the "new" set-up we'll have a car with a highter level of fun, but still only truly elevant to other cars running under the same spec....IMHO, the A9L computers hamper tunablity...We'll be using a computer that allows us to detune when we're running with other "spec" coupes, and amp it up when we're forced to run in the Big Bore class with other groups ....Bottom line...When we have a car running in the spec series that can readily hand a Z06 it's a**, then we're talking.....JMHO

Karen
PS....My "detuned" 331 dyno's at 286 HP/ 350 lb.ft TQ

[JimWilson]

Some may say that ST1 is an option, but here the game gets expensive. With a Coupe that weighs 2490, to be in the running, we would need to produce 452 HP at the rear wheels(approximately 545 at the flywheel), a 2999 weight Coupe needs 545 at the wheels(approximately 654 at the flywheel) so it gets REALLY expensive to play in that sandbox, with the engines needed to produce that type of HP for 25 hours straight, and not turn into scrap metal on the front stretch! I think you guys get the idea........

Hank

Hank,

My math for ST1 vs. ST2 comes out a bit differently. Here are my numbers:

ST1 Math ST2 Math
Target Coupe Weight 2490.0 Target Coupe Weight 2490.0
RWHP 395.0 RWHP 262.0
Uncorrected HP/# Ratio 6.3 Uncorrected HP/# Ratio 9.5

NASA Weight Correction -0.4 NASA Weight Correction -0.4
NASA Mod. Correction -0.4 NASA Mod. Correction -0.4
NASA Corrected HP/# 5.55 NASA Corrected HP/# 8.75
ST1 Max HP/# 5.50 ST2 Max HP/# 8.70

Drivetrain loss 13% Drivetrain loss 13%
Calculated engine HP 454.0 Calculated engine HP 301.1

Based on the math above we'd need an engine capable of providing 395 rear wheel horsepower to get really, really close to the max HP/Weight ratio for ST1. Interestingly, there is strong evidence that a stock Coyote 5.0 will do exactly that. Here is a dyno pull on a stock Mustang with essentially the same drive train being discussed here that shows exactly 395 rear wheel hp.

Based on this math and dyno evidence, I think a Coyote Coupe shows a strong case for ST1. ST2, at Karen's target weight, would require an engine that generates about 300hp to get to the max NASA corrected RWHP/# ratio of 8.7. Somehow, I don't find a 300HP Coupe to be all that interesting a notion.

As always, I could be wrong.
Jim

[Hankl]

Jim,

The numbers I listed are based on a 20% power train loss, while this may be considered high, the difference in dyno's used can more than make up the difference between your 13% and my 20%. The only way to be precise, is to build the car, and then run it on the dyno that will be used for the initial qualifying dyno pull. So you can see where there are so many variables, that we are going with a package that has already proven its self to operate within the parameters we need. I need to say this for clarity, and to keep the conversation on track, we are not even considering running any combination that will put any of the cars currently be built in ST1. If anyone wants to have that conversation, please start another tread, don't do it here. This is all about the ST2 Coupes, stay on track.

ST2, at Karen's target weight, would require an engine that generates about 300hp to get to the max NASA corrected RWHP/# ratio of 8.7. Somehow, I don't find a 300HP Coupe to be all that interesting a notion
Jim

Jim, I'd like to see your response to that statement if you were strapped in the passengers seat and Karen is doing 165MPH at Cal Motor Speedway......Just saying


Hank

[vnmsss]

.........Based on this math and dyno evidence, I think a Coyote Coupe shows a strong case for ST1. ST2, at Karen's target weight, would require an engine that generates about 300hp to get to the max NASA corrected RWHP/# ratio of 8.7. Somehow, I don't find a 300HP Coupe to be all that interesting a notion.

As always, I could be wrong.
Jim

Thanks for the feedback Jim.......Would love for you to build one, gather some data for a couple of years, and post it here to inspire new people.

Karen

[JimWilson]

Thanks for the feedback Jim.......Would love for you to build one, gather some data for a couple of years, and post it here to inspire new people.

Karen

My plan exactly. Standing on the shoulders of giants with the work that you and Hank et.al. are doing now.

Do you and Hank see anything wrong with my calculations regarding ST1? Hank's initial numbers seemed quite discouraging. I see the distinct possibility of a competitive power/weight ratio in ST1 using the Coyote. Shoot holes in my numbers . . . . please; it would save me some time and possible disappointment if you would.

As to the dyno pull numbers . . . until I build the Coupe, I'm going to have to rely on the numbers gathered by others using a comparable power train. Such as the Mustang GT and Boss 302. There's quite a bit of information being developed there.

Jim

[Hankl]

Jim,

I would say that you'll need to gather numbers from the Dyno pulls from the cars that are currently using the Coyote in a racing situation. Those numbers are going to be the ones that will help you make an informed decision. Some of my numbers may look discouraging, but in the real world, where incorrect assumption on the positive side are used(using numbers that are better than they should be), usually ends up costing too much money to fix later. Remember, that if you use the Dyno information from one situation, you'll have to match exactly the same configuration, to get numbers that will be close, understand that they will not be the same, as there are so many variables, that the same car will not pull exactly the same numbers day to day. HTH.

Hank

[JimWilson]

Jim,

I would say that you'll need to gather numbers from the Dyno pulls from the cars that are currently using the Coyote in a racing situation. Those numbers are going to be the ones that will help you make an informed decision.

Thanks for the informed comments, Hank. Since right now it's just the chassis dyno results that are used to classify the cars in an appropriate NASA class, I'm trying to stick to collecting numbers pulled from Dynojet chassis dynos as those are the only ones certified by NASA. I figure Mustangs represent a decent proxy for the Coupe fully understanding that the exhaust, Ford Racing ECU et.al. will be different on any Coupe built with a Coyote. Mustangs seem to be running around 14~15% driveline loss so I've adjusted my numbers accordingly. I suspect the exhaust system is going to represent the biggest hard-value variable between the Coupe and existing Mustangs . . . .

Fortunately, in the planning stage, changing numbers on a spreadsheet is so much cheaper than changing the configuration of an existing car.

But as always, I could be wrong,

Jim

[Hankl]

Jim,

This is why we are going with the 331, given the variables with the Coyote, we have some information that we can pull on and know it's real. We know that if you use the Coyote, a new exhaust will need to be designed, you'll need to figure in the cost of either adapting a Coyote manifold, as David Borden has done with his MKIV, or design a totally new system. From that point, what will the exhaust be from the headers on? We found up to a 75 HP difference between the FFR supplied mufflers, and a set up that was designed by Carl Critz, that made more HP on a 351 base motor. It's my assumption, that to have a free flowing exhaust, that mimics what is on the racing Mustangs, will be a challenge. The Coupe has less room for the headers than a Mustang does, and flow will be much more critical with a system that is so compact. This is just one aspect that the Coyote will force you to deal with, there will be others that you haven't even thought of yet.

We all know that if you have tons of money to throw at a project, any thing can be done, thing is, somewhere along the line, the cost of 1 HP goes from $10, to $25, and you have to make the decision if that course is being cost effective or not. The Team is relying on about 100+ years of combined racing experience to plot the course we're on. We are not trying to discourage anyone's dream, but unlike dreams, we have to pay the bills in the real world. Also understand, that with our engine configuration, we de-tune to meet the HP to Weight ratio, this leads to motor longevity, and less cost in the long run. Paying for more HP to keep up with the pack is expensive, replacing a motor twice in a season is prohibitive for our pockets.

I think that looking in on David Borden's build will give you some more insight to what you'd be dealing with, and when Dave pulls some numbers from his configuration, that will be more valuable than what the Mustangs are doing right now.

Here are some threads that might help your thought process along.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Build-Thread


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...a-FFR-I-think.

Hank

[John Card]

Jim and Hank: Scratch any idea about using percentage to factor drivetrain loss. It's internet BS. For the purposes of this discussion (type of car, motor, etc) it is much safer to assume the loss is about 35-45hp.


Cases in point:

A 225hp stock fox mustang with 40HP loss is about 185 at the wheel - about what they tended to test at.
Coincidentally 18% loss.

A 412hp Coyote powered Mustang - 40hp = 372hp Right about what they tend to test at.
If we used 18% loss, it should be 337hp - they never test that low.
If we figured it backwards - 372 / .82 = 453hp crank (no freakin way, but good for internet ego fluffing).

As the power goes up, losses increase somewhat, but not as a linear percentage. (a 200hp car with 20hp loss will not have 40hp loss at 400hp). I could go into detail, but it's way more complicated than just using a fixed percentage.

Either way, Karen's current 331 motor proves that the desired HP range is very doable with common and reliable parts.

Carry on.....

[vnmsss]

Jim....It will be very cool to have a big HP car joining the Coupe racing ranks...The Coyote motors are indeed attractive, but without a big budget for motor development, we'll be staying with our plan. Not sure I'd change anyway, as the bigger motor will require a whole lot more work on virtually every aspect of the car, including brake system, fuel delivery, suspension, aero, and a whole lot more....Yours sounds like a fun project though...

ST-1 is currently dominated by Corvettes and Vipers....Here's some inspiration from Danny Popp in his ST-1 Corvette...http://wn.com/Danny_Popp's_

Here's in-car from my 286 HP, ST-2 Coupe.....http://vimeo.com/23143306

Welcome to the madness!

Karen

[Hankl]

Thanks John,

It's always good to hear from someone with the experience to give us good facts on the Dyno numbers.

Hank

[FFRSpec72]

A 225hp stock fox mustang with 40HP loss is about 185 at the wheel - about what they tended to test at.

I have built 2 stock engines for my spec racer and they come in between 215 and 220 HP at the rear wheel

[JimWilson]

Jim....It will be very cool to have a big HP car joining the Coupe racing ranks...The Coyote motors are indeed attractive, but without a big budget for motor development, we'll be staying with our plan. Not sure I'd change anyway, as the bigger motor will require a whole lot more work on virtually every aspect of the car, including brake system, fuel delivery, suspension, aero, and a whole lot more....Yours sounds like a fun project though...

ST-1 is currently dominated by Corvettes and Vipers....Here's some inspiration from Danny Popp in his ST-1 Corvette...http://wn.com/Danny_Popp's_


Welcome to the madness! Karen

Thanks, Karen.

My purpose isn't to convince you that going out on a limb for an unproven package in the Coupe is the right decision. I'm just trying to determine whether ST1 is a practical goal for the Coupe or not. Even so, I suspect that I'd have trouble passing Danny Popp even if I had an Audi LMP at my disposal.

So far, I have been using Bruce Griggs as my prototype for systems for my Coupe build plan. His "Old Blue" Mustang has been pretty successful in NASA racing and I like Bruce's approach to problem solving. The Griggs suspensions have transformed Mustang into competitive road racers and the 4on4 Griggs/Sierra brakes, for instance seem ideal for the Coupe. Bruce has an interesting article on brakes here.

Anyway, I'm delighted that a set of 'spec' coupes are underway . . . I expect this to be a great learning experience for us all and a path to the future for the Coupe itself.

[John Card]

I have built 2 stock engines for my spec racer and they come in between 215 and 220 HP at the rear wheel

Either your engines aren't "stock", you have some funny things going on with your chassis dyno, or you are setting a world record for lowest drivetrain loss. Most likely, it is #1, or maybe #2. No way are you seeing only 5-10hp loss in the drivetrain. I have literally seen hundreds of dyno files for Fox Mustangs with a T-5 and an 8.8, and the losses are NEVER that low. You are more likely making in the range of 250-260hp with the help of some careful blueprinting, better fluids, underdrive pulleys, etc. My 91 made 215 with a K&N, removed silencer, bumped timing, pulleys, MAC headers, flowmasters, and synth fluids, But that wasn't "stock" either. Probably a setup not too different than yours. BONE stock (smog, stock headers and all) they usually made 180-ish.

But that is a discussion better left to its own thread....