1/4 scale model feedback

[Hiryu]

How about we just re-angle the front air-dam of xabier's model? That is, move the bottom of the front air-dam back a bit. This would have a number of benefits:

• It would de-emphasize the size of the front intakes because it's pulled back out of eye view more
• While de-emphasizing the size to the eye, it would actually increase the size of the intakes (because of the greater angle)
• Or, instead of increasing the size of the intakes, we could keep them the same size. This would allow us to pull down the front of the nose a bit to create a more rear-mid-engined look that people have been asking about.
• It would decrease the actual front overhang and thus improve the approach angle (important for a daily driver when needing to go over speed bumps and steep entrance ramps, etc.)

The biggest drawback I can see is it also hides one of the more distinguishing features of xabier's design (i.e., the front end), making it look more vanilla.* Maybe some other details could be added to the hood (strakes, etc. like Jim's car?), etc. to liven it up. I REALLY like the vents on the rear deck; maybe something like those could be (tactfully) added to the front to liven it up/keep a design consistency? I didn't add anything here so people could use their imaginations....and plus I'd probably botch it up even more....but the front does look a bit long (for a rear-mid-engined car) to not be broken up, even/especially with this modification.

*Which is why I also modified the front headlights to look more sleek...

Thoughts? I personally like big front intakes, but thought this might be the best of both worlds...

Mike

[kach22i]

Looks good Mike.

[jkf]

Jim put a good question to me: his design takes into account the limitations of the manufacturing processes. To apply those limitations to something like the Xabier car would require significant revision of the design. So which do you do, further improve on a blank canvas, or modify an existing painting? I'm not sure. As much as I see that I like in the Xabier design (and to this point I have been vocal in my dislike of it), I'm afraid the interesting bits would get lost in the translation to something that can be manufactured.

I was wondering whether there might be some advantages to having the guy that's going to have to build the thing also do the designing; I guess that answers that question.

I know a lot of people aren't feeling the love for this design, but I do think there's a lot to like about it. I especially like kach's front end treatment -- the headlights & hood area work way better this way.

The rear on Jim's is nice as is; I don't think the rear lip spoiler is an improvement, although it is probably good aero for an mpg oriented version. I would like to see what it looks like without the "pods" on the rear deck -- that is a trend that i'm not sold on, aesthetically.

If I had to guess, I would say the some version of this body will be one of the available choices whether the forum people like it or not. Given that Jim thinks it is more buildable than the others, and a full size model already exists, there isn't much reason not to produce it and see how it goes.

[VTX]

Mike, I like it a lot.

[Draco-REX]

I'd like to see Xabier's design with the center of the hood a bit lower. -\_/- Granted, it would emphasize the side vents, but minimize the center. I think it'd give it less of a gape-mouthed look and more of a angry grin.

[GUNS]

I'd like to see Xabier's design with the center of the hood a bit lower. -\_/- Granted, it would emphasize the side vents, but minimize the center. I think it'd give it less of a gape-mouthed look and more of a angry grin.

I agree. I will also make the fender flares more pronounced and would make it much more aggressive looking. I'd like to see it with different headlight options as well.

[GunnerG]

I'm looking to build a smokin hot, affordable exotic. By definition, it can't blend in with everything else on the road. The only car that fills the bill for me is the Olmos design. It would also have to be a road car with a hard or targa top. The one dark view of the car really doesn't do it justice. This link shows it much better.
http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/index.php

[scartaan]

olmos.jpg
For those who have not seen other renderings of Rodney's design as a roadster click on http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/index.php This design is unique with very short overhangs front and rear. It looks like the shortest car of the four. Questions that need to be answered,however include: how tough would it be to produce, how much would be necessary to modify the design for production, and how expensive to produce. I feel "A car like no other" is what Dave is looking for, and this car fits the bill.

[2KWIK4U]

I like Jim's design but I still would like some kind of targa or soft top available for it. I just can't get around the front end of Olmos, it is too flat to me. Of course that is just my opinion.

[adesilva]

Too low of a front end would be impossible to drive on the street

[Flashburn]

Oh, I meant a low hood line, not low clearance.

[Horhay]

I can promise you that the Olmos car would not find its way into my garage. I see many merits in the other 3 cars but if the Olmos car is my only option I'll just look elsewhere.

[GUNS]

Mike, I like what you did with the headlights on Xabier's design. It's amazing what little changes like that can do to a design. I think everyone of the 4 cars has potential, but they all need little tweaks here and there to make them perfect.

[adesilva]

Whatever car ends up in production will end up looking very different from what we see now.

These cars need alterations to be viable as production cars (not to mention to no paint design) and we arent even taking into account the difference in looks between the 1/4 and full size model

[RM1SepEx]

I also like making the brake duct area smaller on Xabier's design. Stow a small targa panel, roll up or vinyl windows would be fine by me...

[Gary in NJ]

Mike,

I really like your changes. Go pat yourself on the back.

[Inthenameofweez]

Without seeing more than a top down shot of the 1/4 models, I will wait until after SEMA to offer my criticism...

However, things I have noticed as of yet:



I REALLY like Jim's design. Especially after seeing the full scale. The headlights are simply too wide. It looks like too many existing cars. The MR2 statement makes 0 sense to me though. I see Silvia:

I also enjoy the modification of the side vents heading into the door. This increases the aggressiveness quite a bit and I like it. I think all of the vents look great other than that. Also, the fender lips need to be smoothed out, or more narrow to make room for a bolt on kit. The current design is flawed. The front bumper looks awesome otherwise. And why doesn't the front fender match up with the door? This seems easily addressable.

Xabier still has my 1st choice. I do however agree with the large side (brake duct) openings needing to be a bit smaller. I like the small fix that was posted. The front splitter looks really nice on this one.

The blue 1/4 model is too "Transformer-ish" and cartoon like. With the huge fenders still needing to be addressed, maybe a less aggressive and more sleek design will please my eye. The front bumper is hard to analyze with the black on blue. We need detailed pictures of all, but SEMA will provide that.

I love the headlights of the black model a lot, but it's hard to see any details of the bumper when it's black.

I think all models should've been painted silver or red with all vents/splitters/headlights/door handles/etc to be colored as well. The bodies are hard to see and imagine in productions ready form because of the colors used... Perhaps this can be a possibility with better shots from SEMA and some photoshop.

The small amount of rear end that was shown makes me like Xabier and Jim's models even more. Show the black model's rear end!!!!

[Draco-REX]

You know, I've been thinking. When I first learned about the 818, the performance potential is what really snared me. The heart of a Subaru that I know so well, in a package that only weighs 1800lbs. "Wow!" I thought. "I *must* make one of these." The body was mostly secondary.

Then I saw the bodies; more specifically I saw Olmos' design. Its so dramatic and different from everything out there. That's what drew me to it. It's a design that no big manufacturer would ever build, because it's so aggressive in design. But that's exactly why it'd be perfect for a kit car. "We made this car so different because we can." Is that reason enough to choose the Olmos design? I think so, but that's my opinion, nothing more.

But it struck me recently that I'm getting distracted. Regardless of the body, the chassis design and light running weight are the greatest weapons in this car's arsenal. The packaging is secondary. I'd drive any of the four designs, as long as it's 1800lbs or less.'

And I can always make even the tamest design look aggressive. So my vote stands for Olmos, even if it is slimmed down. But I'll build any of them.

[PhyrraM]

Stuck camping for the weekend, but was able to stream the broadcast on my Droid. So, my "late to the party" comments follow.

FIRST - seriously need good 360 degree video for fair comparision. But here goes....

FFRs design - Designed by a tech guy and it shows. Provides everything a car would need technically, but no soul. Honestly, something I would come up with if I tried, but never choose to buy. I applaud the effort.

Black car, 1st place design - On paper it's got all the right stuff to make it a winner, kinda like how the rich kids have all the cool stuff to be popular. However, also like the rich kids, it just comes off as a pretender and not of substance. Jewelery. Not for me.

Rodney's blue second place design - It actually seems to look much better than the contest submission drawings that I hated. However, it still has a toy quality, like it was intended for a video game. I also question whether it can be built as it sits without major design revisions that will make it something it is not supposed to be. While I do greatly admire what it brings to the table, and that it completely stepped out of the box, - I still hate it. Marc Senger did the same out of the box thing, and his were more to my likings if I was going for sheer shock value.

Xabier's Red roadster - DON'T TOUCH THE GRILL. It's got heart and soul. Is it perfect? Nope. But that's what makes it real. That "fishmouth" is what will give it life. Why do folks remember the Muira and the Countach, but can barely remember the word Diablo? Mistakes that gave the designs life and longevity. Something that grows on you. Without that, before long you'll be looking at trading it in like your last Camry. Still my first place. (For the Subaru guys...10 years later and Bugeyes are more popular than ever. "mistakes" indeed)

[Draco-REX]

(For the Subaru guys...10 years later and Bugeyes are more popular than ever. "mistakes" indeed)

As a Subaru guy, I will say that Subaru's designs do grow on you.

..like a fungus.

[PhyrraM]

It seems like we are doomed to repeat the travesty of the GTMs horrible headlights. I'm sorry, but the "projectors behind a obviously glued in clear cover" just looks plain cheap. I prefer the "raised projectors in a black housing" like the Zonda - IF we are stuck with projectors at all.

Rodney's has a chance if they go back to the original drawing with unprotected projectors under the hood lip.

I still think a good intergrated OEM light from somebody is the best quality choice. However, it requires designing completely around the lights and we are obviously past that stage.

So - here's to hoping.....

[Inthenameofweez]

I just watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tnuRNu-FV4

And I have to say that no matter what happens, I hope this car rocks as hard as the GTM. I know it will.... but man. I almost don't care about all of these details after being reminded of how such a fantastic company such as the one that Dave has created and run for so long can create such an amazing machine. His smile while driving his own creation..... Somebody needs to let him drive an 11 second STi so he can share the love of the Subaru community's faith in this engine, and he'll soon understand the same joy he felt in that GTM.


Damn I'm excited for SEMA.

[adesilva]

While that video is awesome ill admit that it does scare me a bit.. seeing how Dave speaks about the car he seems to emphasize multiple times if you cant build you cant do this...

What about the people who have never built a kit car before ??
What about the average person who may love cars but hasn't done a huge amount of work besides oil changes, brake jobs, exhaust jobs, etc..

The average person doesn't exactly get the opportunity to get "training" for a project like this. Ill admit I have been lucky enough for the most part to have newer cars so maintenance has really been the majority of my experience along with some customization (mainly interior).

I am by no means a race car driver but I love cars... I have a garage with basic tools and this is a project that id like to be part of if its something I can realistically handle.. my plan was to have the most difficult parts to be handled by professionals (if I were to ever come to a point in the instructions that I was completely confused with)

The grin that Dave got when he said "I want to merge" makes me 100% willing to prove him wrong if he doesn't feel the average person can build this machine.

[GUNS]

While that video is awesome ill admit that it does scare me a bit.. seeing how Dave speaks about the car he seems to emphasize multiple times if you cant build you cant do this...

What about the people who have never built a kit car before ??
What about the average person who may love cars but hasn't done a huge amount of work besides oil changes, brake jobs, exhaust jobs, etc..

The average person doesn't exactly get the opportunity to get "training" for a project like this. Ill admit I have been lucky enough for the most part to have newer cars so maintenance has really been the majority of my experience along with some customization (mainly interior).

I am by no means a race car driver but I love cars... I have a garage with basic tools and this is a project that id like to be part of if its something I can realistically handle.. my plan was to have the most difficult parts to be handled by professionals (if I were to ever come to a point in the instructions that I was completely confused with)

The grin that Dave got when he said "I want to merge" makes me 100% willing to prove him wrong if he doesn't feel the average person can build this machine.

To make you feel better I am in the same boat as you and I fully intend on tackling this project. The $15K ish price point makes it much more justifiable than a $40k one. I

[Draco-REX]

While that video is awesome ill admit that it does scare me a bit.. seeing how Dave speaks about the car he seems to emphasize multiple times if you cant build you cant do this...

What about the people who have never built a kit car before ??
What about the average person who may love cars but hasn't done a huge amount of work besides oil changes, brake jobs, exhaust jobs, etc..

The average person doesn't exactly get the opportunity to get "training" for a project like this. Ill admit I have been lucky enough for the most part to have newer cars so maintenance has really been the majority of my experience along with some customization (mainly interior).

I am by no means a race car driver but I love cars... I have a garage with basic tools and this is a project that id like to be part of if its something I can realistically handle.. my plan was to have the most difficult parts to be handled by professionals (if I were to ever come to a point in the instructions that I was completely confused with)

The grin that Dave got when he said "I want to merge" makes me 100% willing to prove him wrong if he doesn't feel the average person can build this machine.

There is a training course held in MI a few times a year. It's one weekend and you get hands-on building a FFR roadster. I think you also get a certificate for your next Kit purchase for attending too. Might be worth planning a weekend off.

I'm pretty sure I could put one of these kits together. But I plan to take one of these courses myself. I'm sure there would be great advice and shortcuts to be learned.

[Nelff]

GKA-FFR-Markup-092311.jpg

This is a fantastic direction.

[BrandonDrums]

I don't like that you got rid of the "brake duct" openings (I'm assuming that's what they are). I think the center opening just needs to be shorter and really the entire hood in the center could almost be just slightly pushed down a bit.

I agree with the comment about the hood being shorter. While I love Xabier's design wholeheartedly as-is, I do see what some folks have issue with concerning the front end. There was some similar discussion about the Nissan GT-R pre-production concept that had giant brake duct vents that was one of the only tweaks they made for the production version. I happend to love them but most folks didn't.

Same goes with Xabier's design. While I love it, many folks think "catfish" as many thought the GT-R concept looked like a "racoon". When they removed the ducts, I just saw way too much painted area and it just added to the giant, flat looking front end the GT-R has in my book. I'm afraid by removing the brake ducts from Xabier's design you add too much painted area and the design goes a little bland.

With Xabier's design, I do also see that proportionally, the front corner panel area above the front wheel arches can appear a bit large to some folks which I think adds to it's aggressive and slightly radical look, but also draws a bit too much attention from the eye when shot at a front quarter view like the 1/4 sale model shots. Closing the vents but not quite as much as Kach22i did WHILE removing some of the visual mass from the wheel arch and outer hood crease/corner panel area could really pull the design together to appease even more folks but not compromise the overall look of the front end.

I'm more familiar with Xabier's design than any of the others, I'd love more shots of the rest from other angles, perhaps I could form a better opinion on those if they were available.

[adesilva]

To make you feel better I am in the same boat as you and I fully intend on tackling this project. The $15K ish price point makes it much more justifiable than a $40k one. I

The interesting part is the fact that from what I have heard on the forums 40k isnt even possible for that car... its more like a minimum of 50k

The GTM is the car that I originally fell in love with. Even at 50k I would rather have it than any car in that price bracket.

The idea of the 818 is amazing.. if it can actually be done for 15k then it will be the deal of the century.

I am more than willing to put in double the time of someone else building the car (due to my inexperience) to complete this car. I already have the money ready for the kit its mainly figuring out the remainder of the parts needed and if its something I can actually handle on my own (with the occasional help from friends / family)

Once the kit is ready for order I then just need to figure out the most cost effective place to purchase the necessary parts. (I am hoping for a store on ebay to have a kit like I see for the gtm) Considering how many wrx's are in the area I may even be able to make one junk yard trip and get them to rip off every part I need including the engine / tranny but thats something I will worry about when its closer to the kit even being out

[flyboy2160]

Silver Design is worst of the 4 for me:
- looks literally like the child of an S2000 and the last gen MRS
- bland styling, doesn't leap out and make viewers say "WHAT IS THAT!!!?"
- gimmicky truncated head fairings
- much, much too large front overhang. looks like a front engine car, similar to the Boxsters
- I would not buy this body no matter what.

Red design is 3rd of the 4 for me:
- ugly,gaping, drooping front intake mouth looks like a catfish/grouper and gives too much drag.
- don't like head fairings
- way out of proportion narrow roll hoop jars flow of width lines
- bland styling, doesn't leap out and make viewers say "WHAT IS THAT!!!?"
- I would not buy this body no matter what.

Black design is 2nd of the 4 for me:
- looks literally like an S2000. I can imagine viewers asking if that's what it is...
- too large front overhang. looks like a front engine car
- don't like head fairings, especially these large ones
- bland styling, doesn't leap out and make viewers say "WHAT IS THAT!!!?"
- I would not buy this body no matter what.

Blue design is clearly the winner for me and is the only body I would buy of these 4:
- unlike the others, has dramatically short front overhang that screams "I'm mid engined like a race car. Take that you front engined look-a-likes!"
- dramatic muscular wheel arches scream performance, like the Cobra.
- what an improved, 'smoothed,' roofed KTM Xbow would look like or what a possible improved new Lotus Elise could look like.
- already has removable hard top integrated into the design, which I require.
- allows for integrated roll hoop
- the only design that of these 4 that will make viewers say "WHAT IS THAT OUTRAGEOUS THING!!!? IT LOOKS SCREAMING FAST."
- if this body isn't offered, I would try to build it (or Jim Foglini's design) on my own. I wouldn't buy any of the other bodies. (Does FF own the rights to this or could Olmos help with a non-FF fabrication? Rodney, please email or PM me....)

Flyboy Steve

[scartaan]

I agree with flyboy- The 50's Ferraris and Jag XKE were not memorable because they looked like a modified box.

[Flamshackle]

PLEASE DAVE SMITH AND TEAM, SORT OUT SOME GOOD IMAGES OF THESE MODELS!!!!!!!
TO MAKE A FAIR CALL WE NEED BETTER IMAGES AND FROM REAL LIFE ANGLES NOT FROM A HELICOPTER OR BIRDS EYE VIEW.

We are judging these cars in real time based on a dodgy iphone recording and stills from that same dodgy recording.

Any way back to the judgements based on terrible images...

To me the Red street car is a good looking mid engine car. I totally disagree with flyboy on the styling and think that its so far from bland that I wonder what kind of cars he see's every day to make that call????

Its a stunning look with dramatic and stand out front end.

The black car looks like a front engine car I agree and really looks like it will be struggling to fit a rear engine in it without many changes.

I like Rodneys design as well and hope it doesn't get narrowed in the width to much to make into production.

The silver in house special is ok but I would rather build the other two first

So to summarize I would build all bar the black one.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE GET BETTER REAL LIFE ANGLE IMAGES OF THESE CARS UP ASAP SO WE CAN MAKE BETTER JUDGMENTS ON THEM.

[bromikl]

There is a training course held in MI a few times a year. It's one weekend and you get hands-on building a FFR roadster. I think you also get a certificate for your next Kit purchase for attending too. Might be worth planning a weekend off.

I'm pretty sure I could put one of these kits together. But I plan to take one of these courses myself. I'm sure there would be great advice and shortcuts to be learned.

More info on the build school: http://www.factoryfive.com/roadster/build/school.html

I understand the complexity of the GTM is much more than any of their other kits. I've heard the interior is almost all custom work. I have also heard of the $50K minimum, but what car at that price even comes close to super-car territory?

I'm no mechanic, either, and I would never attempt a GTM as my first kit. But I can follow directions. And I know how to ask questions. And I'm sure mistakes will be made, and then they will be corrected. And I'll have accomplished something few people on the planet have done. And I'll have the trophy to prove it.

Note to FFR: Hire a really good technical writer to write the build manual. Very clear instructions (with photos) will make a big difference - especially to guys (and girls) like me.

[kach22i]

There was some similar discussion about the Nissan GT-R pre-production concept that had giant brake duct vents that was one of the only tweaks they made for the production version.

I could not find the exact car in your example (a photo would help), but did find some after-market kits which may be similar.

http://www.gtrblog.com/tag/abflug/
Close to description:
abflug-frontbumper-001-540x405.jpg

Closer to stock, but not stock:
20090609102445-540x405.jpg

When Mike lowered the front end, he opened up a bag of worms which includes people parking by braille and sliding up your hood, plus a few other real life issues, mostly Urban, not Suburban. Needless to say, if you want a good city car, buy a Smart car, this is a country road or track sort of car.

Now if Mike would only reduce the size of the two outboard openings, we may have a winner. It would be half-way between my first attempt and his, a collaboration based on the popular "X" design (first letter of creator's name).

Food for thought, the race version of the GTR has a lowered front end, I hate the GTR, but this track monster goes a long way towards softening my position (and no massive brake duct openings).

http://www.autowallpaperhd.com/nissa...-car-2008.html
Nissan-GT-R-GT500-Race-car-2008-2-300x225.jpg

[Olimk2]

Still Xabier n°1 for me but i agree that the brake intake should be rounded and smaller (ending in line with the headlamp). The blue car is quite striking but a little OTT? Black one classy but bland, grey one reveals a mismatch of pieces put together, no strong lines, no harmony, says kitcar at first sight...(no offence)

[bromikl]

The blue car is quite striking but a little OTT?

Those who like Olmos' design love it because it's Over The Top.

Those who don't like it, do so for the same reason.

As my stage acting friend once told me, "Nobody pays to see under the top." I'd rather drive an outrageous design than one that might get lost in a sea of metal. Don't get me wrong, the Audi TT, Nissan 350Z, and Porsche Boxter are beautiful cars. But they are all (relatively) common. The Lotus Exige is an outrageous design. And I bet you can count on one hand how many you saw on the road in the last year. I'd even wager you can even tell me what color they were.

[mekeys]

In my opinion,now that I have seen 539 entries I am more convinced than I was a month ago that there are other designs that I like a lot better than the four The expert judges picked..

The models should have all been painted the same color and put on a turntable so we could see them from every angle.

Mel

[Silvertop]

.............Note to FFR: Hire a really good technical writer to write the build manual. Very clear instructions (with photos) will make a big difference - especially to guys (and girls) like me.

About five years ago, I bought an assembly manual from FFR for a Mark III Roadster because I had the same concerns that you are voicing. My opinion on the manual, though I have not yet built or even ordered a car..... -- These guys do a truly excellent job of creating assembly manuals. You will not need to be a technical genius to build one of their cars -- just a moderate degree of mechanical acumen, and/or a strong will to get it done.

[scartaan]

Separated at Birth?
20110810-Allure-of-the-M.jpg Steve McQueen's Jaguar XKSS

olmos 1.jpg Olmos Blue car as roadster
click on photos

[kach22i]

In my opinion,now that I have seen 539 entries I am more convinced than I was a month ago that there are other designs that I like a lot better than the four The expert judges picked..

The models should have all been painted the same color and put on a turntable so we could see them from every angle.

Mel

A lot of talent in this forum, I'm sure somebody reading this can Photoshop the four images David H. posted and paint them all silver/gray. The blue car (Olmos) in particular with it's bold two tone paint job may become a different animal under these circumstances. I would leave the glass tinted but that is all on that one.

[305mouse]

As I stated in the poll thread, it was hard to see any detail on the black contest winner's design. The front reminded me of a 370Z and I just liked the other designs better. Better road level views are really needes, no overhead.