Shawn Whetstone's Design

[VTX]

I'm wager that Ferrari has a lot longer wheel base and is also wider than the 818 template.

[D2W]

I wonder if this toy fits "THE TEMPLATE" ...

Wheelbase - 104.3" / Height - 47.8" I think you'll find most sportscars are around this tall, and Kach is right the roof height needs to be raised and that may ruin the proportions . Also remember that Dave want's this car to be wookie compatible, the GTM is not.

I love the 458, and you can see some similiaties to Shawn's design. You can also see some similiarities to Rodney's design.

[D2W]

Shawn's design was submitted and voted on, no politics as the voters never even met or talked to each other. Grassroots supplied the designs to the judges with only the renderings and judges name, no other background info. I remember it as I had voted for it as my second choice behind Xabier's design.

Jim, good to see you here. Don't be a stranger and try to participate more often, I for one would love it if the designer himself would weigh in more often.

[Oppenheimer]

Jim, good to see you here. Don't be a stranger and try to participate more often, I for one would love it if the designer himself would weigh in more often.

+1. But you need a pretty thick skin to deal with all the 'feedback'.

[16g-95gsx]

It reminds me of:

And in a way it does to me too, but I absolutely don't feel that is a bad thing. That's like saying the GTM looks like a GT40, perhaps in some instances, but who minds that?

[Flamshackle]

It would be like buying your wife a super sexy neglige, but it's size 2 and your wife is size 10. Well, she's gonna be sleeping in sweat pants, and you going to be sleeping on the couch

HAHAHA! that was internet GOLD! i had a good old chuckle over this one

[Oppenheimer]

Well, to put a few recent posts together in a new way:

Originally Posted by BipDBo
"....your wife is size 10. ...you going to be sleeping on the couch"

Originally Posted by 16g-95gsx
"...but I absolutely don't feel that is a bad thing."

[apexanimal]

looks like a tesla... and, for me, that's not a great thing...

[Oppenheimer]

looks like a tesla... and, for me, that's not a great thing...

Um, isn't a Tesla just an Elise with electric drivetrain? You don't like the Elise either?

[adesilva]

I dont believe so, I think the Elise looks much better than the Tesla Roadster. I can see a lot of similarity in this design to the Tesla though. I feel that this design is a great starting point but I feel that its too smooth.. if needs some edgy qualities to make it look more aggressive. This looks nice but too tame for the HOF feeling

[ScottKoschwitz]

The Tesla is basically an Elise with an electric drivetrain and a few detail changes. I toured the Lotus factory in July 2009, and saw lines of Teslas waiting to be flown to the United States. Not shipped - flown. I guess an MSRP over $100,000 allows you enough margin to do that.

[bbjones121]

I love Shawn's design.

[kitcarj]

I believe it is a Lotus Evora chassis and reworked body.

[kach22i]

Wheelbase - 104.3" / Height - 47.8"

Yep, common high end sports car dimensions. Just large enough for +50 year old American males with beer belly's to be able to get into.

As far as Lotus goes, I like the original Elise better than the current insect or Tesla, but that's just me.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsc...club-meet.html

<BR>The first-gen Elise was imported in small numbers as a kit car - this one has a Type R Honda engine.
<BR>

Lotus North America is about two miles from my house, I buzz by there quite often, sometimes they leave some old stuff lying around.

A post from 2007
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-t...ml#post3285628

[kach22i]

A reply from 2007 to the above photos..............
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-t...ml#post3285628

that's not a Lotus, it's an Opel/Vauxhall

they are made on the same chassis as the Lotus , but different body and engine

More from 2007
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-t...ml#post3287381

I miss my old Zebra Tracker, had it for 19-1/2 years.

[SccrMan13]

No, I really mean it is a toy for children, an adult could not possibly fit in it. An adult dwarf maybe, but it would be tight.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ8QQtppZZ20

I am unsure what you are using as a reference point. I am going to assume you are using the wheel/tire which in stock wrx size is almost 26" not 24". Please let me know what you are using as a reference on the drawings.

[kach22i]

I am unsure what you are using as a reference point. I am going to assume you are using the wheel/tire which in stock wrx size is almost 26" not 24". Please let me know what you are using as a reference on the drawings.

Template tires were 24", but did not include the deformation due to weight of car. I think deformation would only be the bottom 1", not a full 1-1/2" of heavier cars.

If the original illustration showed larger than 24" or 26" which was common, then there would be even more adjusting required. Of course a proper side view would put all the ratio and proportion and reverse engineering aside. I'd just do a quick overlay and be done.

In any case at nearly a foot shorter than comparable designs (which placed) it would be hard to make up.

[PhyrraM]

Stock WRX is 205/55R16 (24.87" OD) or 215/45R17 (24.61" OD). Quoted OD sizes do not include squish and came straight from a random tire stores online calculator.

IMHO, all designs should be based on that O.D. unless FFR is planning on providing wheels and tires with the kit OR they are planning on blatently scrapping the $15,000 on the road target. Now, if those OEM sizes leave the wheelwells slightly unfilled, that's expected and OK - But they should at least be acceptable to look at.

[SccrMan13]

I messed up. You areright the stockers are more like 25". With weight i could see that down an inch at most. Really hope the design dave goes with is clean and slick like this. There are ways to incorporate the needed vents and intakes without making it look like a auto parts store stick on hood scoops. Also i wonder why the designer said everything had been done to specs?

[bbjones121]

kach22i, why do you keep using those original templates? I thought the tank moved. It doesn't seem to make much sense that you would sit that high in the final design of the car. I am optimistic that you would be sitting so low that it would feel like your butt was on the road, just as I have felt sitting in a lotus, ford gt, and pantera. If the car is going to look attractive, I would think the driver is going to need to be sitting lower than shown in the original template.

[kach22i]

kach22i, why do you keep using those original templates? I thought the tank moved. It doesn't seem to make much sense that you would sit that high in the final design of the car. I am optimistic that you would be sitting so low that it would feel like your butt was on the road, just as I have felt sitting in a lotus, ford gt, and pantera. If the car is going to look attractive, I would think the driver is going to need to be sitting lower than shown in the original template.

I guess you have chosen to ignore all of the template studies I have done, and ignored earlier explanations in this thread.

You have also chosen to ignore the template studies olpro did showing a 50% male with a very low seat fitting the original template, and a 95% American Male sitting several inches higher.

I keep telling you that an average person sitting on the gas tank would fit the original template. However, somebody forgot the seat, the cushion, the adjustable rail height and any possibility of re-using the stock seats to keep costs down. If you think that you suddenly won 3" in height by sitting on the floor with no seat, then you have far different standards than I.

[StatGSR]

kach22i, why do you keep using those original templates? I thought the tank moved. It doesn't seem to make much sense that you would sit that high in the final design of the car. I am optimistic that you would be sitting so low that it would feel like your butt was on the road, just as I have felt sitting in a lotus, ford gt, and pantera. If the car is going to look attractive, I would think the driver is going to need to be sitting lower than shown in the original template.

^ i don't think the tank was ever considered in the template. frankly i think that many people are forgetting how short this car is, the shorter the car is the more "bubble" top it has to be, humans don't scale with the car. you can't take a car that would look great and be the size of an Aston Martin (108in wheelbase), and make it the size of an ariel atom (92.3in wheelbase) and expect the roofline to stay the same...

for an example, my integra has a 96.5" wheel base (and would still be considered a small car by most people), the 818 will have an 95" wheel base (and should have less over hang front and rear)... but even an integra has a slightly odd looking bubble roof to fit full sized people in it and even that is tricky to sit in if you are over 6' and would like to have a proper upright seating position and or wear a helmet (and my seats are already 1 inch lower than the factory seats). how do you expect the 818 to not have a similar bubble top... you just cant make a car shorter in height and shorter in wheel base and expect to keep the same size person in there, you have to keep the height reasonable, especially if it is to be wookie compatible, which is something the the elise and exige are not...


now compare the roofline to this one... keeping in mind that the height of both is nearly identical.....



anybody wana make a side by side of the GTM chassis next to the 818 chassis? while maintaining accurate scaling?

[BipDBo]

Well, to put a few recent posts together in a new way:

Originally Posted by BipDBo
"....your wife is size 10. ...you going to be sleeping on the couch"

Originally Posted by 16g-95gsx
"...but I absolutely don't feel that is a bad thing."

Aint nothin wrong with a size 10. Cars are like women:
They require lots of maintenance including a periodic fluid change.
They can be tempermental and unreliable.
A man will spend hours flipping through magazines filled with pictures of them.
A man will make tremendous sacrifices to get the right one.
They look best with dramatic curves and wide fenders.

[PhyrraM]

...... frankly i think that many people are forgetting how short this car is, the shorter the car is the more "bubble" top it has to be, humans don't scale with the car........over 6' and would like to have a proper upright seating position and or wear a helmet .... how do you expect the 818 to not have a similar bubble top... you just cant make a car shorter in height and shorter in wheel base and expect to keep the same size person in there, you have to keep the height reasonable, especially if it is to be wookie compatible........

Exactly. This was/is the danger of targetting "exotic" types of designs. Proportions are doomed to be way off and folks will be second guessing everything. And we are. Look at all the feedback from the models as proof.

It's for these reasons I prefered designs like Marc Senger's and Scott Bradford's over the Nuephone type of supercar wannabes. The designs are completely original so the sense of proportion can be created outside of current expectations.

While I really, really like Shawns overall design (one of the best, in concept), I think it would need 30" tall wheels and 110" wheelbase to maintain proportions with a real human inside. I would really like to see a true to reality workover and be proved wrong though.

[StatGSR]

This was/is the danger of targetting "exotic" types of designs. Proportions are doomed to be way off and folks will be second guessing everything. And we are. Look at all the feedback from the models as proof.

I agree, That and i also don't want a kit car that looks like a grand tourer but on the inside i am looking at steel, aluminum, and fiberglass. I want it to look like a toy, just like a Atom and X-Bow look like toys, because at the end of the day, that's what it is. it isn't a grand tourer, so why should it look like one?

[bbjones121]

Am I missing something here?

GKA-Height-Study-profile.jpg

Why in the world does there need to be that much space? Noticed that I drew a very short person, but my point is below.

This is an enthusiast car. Are we serious about putting a plush, cushy seats in this thing? Is it really being designed for "wookie compatibility"?
I sure hope these are all jokes. This thing should have a seat slammed down to the floor just like the Lotus Elise/Exige, Pantera, or 550 Spyder. I am quickly loosing excitement for this car if it is going to be designed to be overly "comfortable" for a 6 foot+ person. I see some big people getting into Lotus Elises. Yeah... it may not be comfortable for them, but they deal with it, because that is the size that the vehicle is and they wanted it.

Let me repeat, this is a tiny wheelbase, an extremely lightweight car, it is completely out of this world to think that it should be designed to accomodate more than you would expect from a Lotus/Elise/Exige.

[kach22i]

anybody wana make a side by side of the GTM chassis next to the 818 chassis? while maintaining accurate scaling?

Done weeks ago in another thread. Click the link, there are a lot of studies of all sorts.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...cpZZ4QQtppZZ20

Am I missing something here?

Why in the world does there need to be that much space?

How much space do you want? As little as many squished designs show? No room for roof structure, moving about while trying to get in, and of course helmet wearing?

The roof in that sketch might be a little forward in response to all the designs trying to force a cab-forward design where the drivers feet are between the front wheels. The 818 is not of that seating position, more like a middle position like the Boxster. If you look at a Cayman you will see almost a similar roof profile.

http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/


Porsche Cayman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_Cayman

Wheelbase 2,416 mm (95.1 in)
Length 2006-08: 4,372 mm (172.1 in)
2009-Present: 172.3 in (4,376 mm)
Width 1,801 mm (70.9 in)
Height 1,305 mm (51.4 in)
2009-Present Base: 51.3 in (1,303 mm)

Note: The floor structure depth of the Boxster/Cayman is about 4", plus you have upright German seating with a seat height/butt of around 7".

http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...more-notes.jpg

[bbjones121]

I don't know the answer to that. In a car this size, I personally would not expect more room than you will find in the Lotus. People seem to wear a helmet in that car just fine. This sucks, I thought this car would be low like the GTM 42.5"...well maybe not that low, but at least around the Lotus at 45.6".

For reference of other exotics, Porsche GT is 46", Panteras are 43.4", Lamborghini Gallardo is 46", Ferrari Enzo 45.2", Ferrari 360 is 47.7" and Ford GT's are 44.3".

[PhyrraM]

For reference of other exotics, Porsche GT is 46", Panteras are 43.4", Lamborghini Gallardo is 46", Ferrari Enzo 45.2", Ferrari 360 is 47.7" and Ford GT's are 44.3".

All of those use tires at least 2" taller than 24" and are much longer overall than the 818, so even if the overall height is still in the low 40" range, proportionaltly it will still be "taller". Again, you cannot obtain the same "exotic" low and lean profile. It will always be off when compared to those cars no matter what you do because of the differences in wheel height, length, and wheelbase. Maybe if you got it down to 38"-40" tall...?

[Oppenheimer]

I think its entirely reasonable that to fit a larger person, different seating strategies would need to be employed. Aftermarket seats, special mounting brackets, etc. I also think that for more normal sized persons, having the default be to reuse the stock Subie seats is also reasonable.

If big guys gotta pay more to fit, I'm OK with that. But I think the big guys should still be able to fit.

[bbjones121]

Here you go for wheelbase comparisons as well:
818: 95"
Enzo:104.3"
Porsche GT: 107.5"
Lotus: 90.6" (shorter than 818 and still looks good)
Pantera: 99"
Lamborghini Gallardo: 100.8"
Ford GT:107"
Ferrari 355:96.5" at 46" height (this is the most comparable)

[VTX]

I believe that the K-1 Attack is 96" and I think it looks great. Both the Exige and Attack are examples of short wheel base cars that look great IMHO.

[SW1]

First of all, I would like to sincerely thank everyone for your kind remarks! I enjoyed participating in this design competition in large part due to the active and enthusiastic participation on this forum. It’s always a lot of fun to design something that people are really passionate about.

I would like to also say congratulations to all who participated. Every week, I check the submissions thread and am intrigued and inspired by new designs.

I will follow up this post with several more that discuss the inspiration for the design and how this design started life as a 3 seat center drive personal project.

As a product designer and not a car stylist, I feel I can make a good argument for many aspects of this design, especially as it relates to realistic and functional proportions, ergonomics, sightlines, and overall packaging.

Lastly, perspective can blow your mind; I will provide a pure side view elevation.

-Shawn Whetstone

[PhyrraM]

...... Both the Exige and Attack are examples of short wheel base cars that look great IMHO.

Agreed, both look good. But neither has that supercar profile. Both look good because they were designed within the limitations of the package instead of trying to make an existing profile conform to the package.

[bbjones121]

A ferrari 355 is almost identical wheelbase and looks pretty good as well.

[SW1]

The template was frustrating to say the least. It actually changed a couple times in the first week. I remember telling a friend, this is crazy, I have to check the template every day to see what has changed. Then there were the isometric views, I was convinced Factory Five was determined to confuse everyone. But the biggest issue was the controversial “gas tank under the seat” parameter. I debated long and hard whether or not to participate because of that one parameter. The gas tank under the seat changes EVERYTHING in a car that size from a design and packaging perspective. I thought if this was my car, I would be willing to pay extra for a custom tank behind the driver’s seat to keep the height in check. Next, Dave Smith started talking about how we shouldn’t get hung up on that one parameter, and that it may change anyway. I decided to move forward with the gas tank behind the seat because I was convinced it was the right move for this car, any hardcore enthusiast doesn’t want to be sitting 8 inches higher than the guy next to him in the Lotus Exige. In my mind the 818 should be the ultimate nemesis to the Exige: More powerful, lighter, harder to get into, better looking, less practical and just as low if not lower. The beauty of a mid engine layout is that you can sit low in the car and still have great sightlines and visibility, It also allows the ability to have a functional roll bar that doesn’t look out of place due to the fact that the driver is so nestled into the car.

[Gummy]

SShawn,

Your design definitely set my hair on fire when I first saw it on the Grassroot Motorsports forum. I liked it so much that I set one of the Targa pics as my desktop background for a lengthy period of time. I was disappointed that your design was not selected by the judges as one of the winners, and I am grateful to the OP for casting light on your entry again.

I look forward to more pictures of your car, Shawn.

[kitcarj]

The design is very beautiful. The funny thing is, although a lot of the cars I prefer are a lot busier, this comes across as exotic without a bunch of scoops and fins.

[picaman]

OK I amend my choices:
1. Olmos design
2. Whetstone design
3. Anything but Factory 5 MR2 design

[SW1]

whetstone-013.jpg