Shawn Whetstone's Design

[Benji]

So the question is, does that make Kach22i happy?

I love this design. As much as I was a big fan of Xabier's design, I think this is no my favourite! Would be interesting to see this printed out on the 1/4 scale and how it would also translate into life size. There is only one thing on this design I would change but other than that it's exactly how kitcarj says it:

"this comes across as exotic without a bunch of scoops and fins."

It's beauty is in it's simplicity and most importantly it looks unique enough to me.

[bbjones121]

Awesome Shawn! I think that Xabiers design looks nice, but this has a sexy/elegant exotic appeal to it. It seems more along the lines of future concept cars from a lot of the major sports car companies.

[kach22i]

So the question is, does that make Kach22i happy?

No, I'm not happy. I asked Shawn in a PM to overlay either a 50% male or 95% male so that I would not be the bad guy or "Template Cop". This should really be self regulating for anyone serious about design, things have to fit no matter what business you are in.

Keep in mind when you view this that a 50% male head height could be where FFR put it if the seat were bolted to the floor. Add in adjustable seat rails, and you add a couple of inches. Add in a 95% male at 6-foot tall and you need yet another 2 inches in height (4" more overall). This means even if our template fits, some adjustment would have to be made in a final design. The closer to the original template, the less painful these changes will be, and the better the chance the original character stays intact.

Link to overlay: Don't click if you don't want to see the results, nobody is forcing you to see it.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...tstone-013.jpg

[bbjones121]

Also remember that Dave want's this car to be wookie compatible, the GTM is not.

I just saw this. I feel that a car that is going to be designed smaller than the GTM should not be able to fit someone larger than the GTM can. I thought the hot rod fills the wookie void, not a 95" wheelbase vehicle.

[PhyrraM]

I just saw this. I feel that a car that is going to be designed smaller than the GTM should not be able to fit someone larger than the GTM can. I thought the hot rod fills the wookie void, not a 95" wheelbase vehicle.

I completely disagree.

The goals of this car are clearly stated (but often forgot when discussing styling). The goal is to open up a larger market by using tools such as lower price of entry, world car, single donor, "younger" donor audience, etc.

How can you expand the market when you even further restrict who can fit in the final product?

I can't see many folks that are not already in the FFR family actually cross shopping the 818 and the Hot Rod. Quite the opposite...The new 818 owners will get to see that the FFR community is indeed a family...that will lead to the consideration of another FFR based project that would never have been on the table before.

[bbjones121]

Add in adjustable seat rails, and you add a couple of inches.

I don't want anyone else driving my car.

Add in a 95% male at 6-foot tall and you need yet another 2 inches in height (4" more overall).

That is what the convertible version is for.

It doesn't look like Shawn's design needs to be raised that much. I think it looks good the way it is and I don't understand why you think that it is not.

Many other manufacturers are able to create a beautiful car with around a 95" wheelbase and 45" height (ground clearances are pretty close as well). I started researching this, many models of ferrari, every single Lotus I can think of (yes, even the "large" Esprit), the Noble M400, K1-attack, several Porsche's, many Lamborghini's (the Lamborghini Countach has a wheelbase of 96.4" with a ride height of 42.13"!!!), etc. all have similar wheelbase and ride heights to what FFR could make with Shawn's design. The more I research this, the more I realize how ridiculous it is that we are even arguing about the ability for FFR to make a car with a wheelbase of 95" with a ride height around 45."

I wouldn't think it to be that difficult to modify the chassis to have a lower top bar. kach22i, I know you want to base these criticisms off of templates that apparently went through several revisions during the design competition, but I fully believe that FFR will make a car that looks AWESOME! A car that is dis-proportionally bubbled in the middle to account for a template that was issued back during the design competition is not making a car that looks AWESOME. If the car is going to be AWESOME, some decisions on that template may have to be made.

Again...how in the world do all those manufactures create AWESOME cars with such small dimensions, but it isn't possible to think that FFR can.

[bbjones121]

I completely disagree.

What do you disagree with?
A "feeling" that I have about a car smaller than the GTM, not being able to fit someone larger than can fit in the GTM or that the Hot Rod can fit a wookie?

Hope to expand the market for larger drivers with a vehicle that is smaller than the GTM? I think I am not understanding something correctly.

I have seen a 6'4" guy fitting into a Lotus Exige. Probably uncomfortable, but it happened. If you want it to work, you can make it work.

I think you should be able to spend a little more for some modifications to make it work for a taller/larger bodied individual or take the top off, but it is not a large vehicle and should not be assumed to accommodate a large person. The general "world" would not imagine it being built for a larger driver. I don't understand where that logic comes from. I know there are several of you (95%+ males) making comments on these forums because this is an opportunity for your voices to be heard and they are being heard, but it is very very very very uncommon to see a taller/larger person driving a vehicle this small. To think that this could not be a "world" car without meeting the 95% male size is extremely absurd.

[bobzdar]

The 355 can fit a 6'4" driver comfortably (verifiied by an owner) and maybe taller, so lets see the template overlay on a 355.

[slopoke]

how the h*ll did all those drivers EVER fit in a GT40???

[slopoke]

if you build a frame for a barn ... it's not gonna turn out to be the Taj Mahal ....

[PhyrraM]

What do you disagree with?

I disagree with the idea that it would be OK for this car to have a smaller market than the GTM when FFR has clearly stated the opposite.

[bbjones121]

Where did I say that? Did that come from a long awaited chance to just say you disagree with me again. If I remember correctly, you also think it is impossible to make an exotic looking car with the design goals.

I think it is just silly to think this will attract a larger market by making it fit extra tall/large people. Just the size of it alone is a detractor to these people. To change that idea or generalization in peoples minds around the world will take more than a clever marketing strategy.

Maybe we could invent a machine like that used in the movie Inception. So that by the time this car is produced, the market of taller/larger people will be brain washed into thinkibg a car like this was made for them.

[Twinspool]

how the h*ll did all those drivers EVER fit in a GT40???

Gurney bumps!

[adesilva]

I disagree with the idea that it would be OK for this car to have a smaller market than the GTM when FFR has clearly stated the opposite.

Agreed, if this car were to sell less than the GTM it would have to be considered a failure in the eyes of FF. How many GTMs are really out there .. .500?1000?

This car is meant to be a world car so its obvious that they are trying to increase the amount of people purchasing their kits. At the 10k price point im sure they are not making a huge amount on each one as well so they will need to sell large quantities in order to make money

[bbjones121]

I agree with that also. To sell less than the GTM would be a disaster. I merely do not think there is a very large market out there of 95%+ males looking for a car this size. Maybe I am wrong.

[VD2021]

Agreed, if this car were to sell less than the GTM it would have to be considered a failure in the eyes of FF. How many GTMs are really out there .. .500?1000?

Less than 400 kits have been sold and to date less than 100 of those are known to be complete.

[adesilva]

Less than 400 kits have been sold and to date less than 100 of those are known to be complete.

Thank you for the closer figure. That only furthers my point that this car has to sell a lot more than the GTM.

I also really enjoyed looking at your build log

[skullandbones]

The comparison is a little skewed. The price of the 818 will be half the cost of a GTM kit. However, the total outlay will be probably less than one third of that of a GTM. From what I am seeing on the GTM build threads that may be a conservative comparison. So if you look at the most likely person to buy a 818 (middle of the normal curve), that same person will almost never buy a GTM probablility wise. You are looking at a completely different population of customers. My point is: GTM buyers are by definition a small target market. The target market for the 818 is going to be hugh (has to be). So the appeal for the product will probably be some sort of compromise. But I think I still would consider the final product even if it doesn't meet every detail of my dream car. WEK.

[VD2021]

Thank you for the closer figure. That only furthers my point that this car has to sell a lot more than the GTM.

I also really enjoyed looking at your build log

No worries. There are some great discussions taking place in regards to the 818. It may end up in my garage too.

[kach22i]

..........Many other manufacturers are able to create a beautiful car with around a 95" wheelbase and 45" height

Look at those interiors, very low to the floor custom seats is the answer, not a big mystery.

Early on I said the FFR template as drawn would lead to a 48" tall car (posted an image), you say 45".

Is 3 inches really worth hi-jacking a tread over?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing Shawn took the 3 inch tall gas tank relocation as a green light to lower his car 3 inches (fine with me). If you use a racing seat with thin padding, you can do this by restricting use, to no tall people allowed.

If you want to meet the FFR goals, a $5,000 donor Legacy 2.5L 170 hp engine using stock seats, steering column and other parts to mate to a $10,000 kit, then that is your base starting point. The starting point fitting 95% of potential buyers may be roughly a 52" tall car using stock seats, about 1/2" taller than a Porsche Cayman.

If you want light weight racing seats, a 3.5L turbo from a limited edition late model car, then be prepared to pay more.

If I'm saying anything unexpected or out of line, just let me know.

As far as I know FFR has not announced if stock seats are going to be used. The WRX seat David H. did his test fitting with may have been something just lying around the shop. The only car I've ever tested to a taller template than the FFR height is my own 7th design. It was the slightest of changes to make it work at around 51" high, and still looked good to me.

[PHATsuby]

this car definitely gets my vote. Looks awesome!

Ben

[bbjones121]

Problem solved.
Get lower rails for stock WRX seats (yes they sell these)
You can remove the rails and bold directly to floor
Scrap the WRX seats, sell them on ebay, make some money and buy a pair of racing seats for $500(for both)

Problem solved, you get a nicely proportioned car and you don't hit the ceiling.

Lets get FFR to not bubble up the roof and make the car look goofy for something that is not a big deal... or we can keep arguing with everyone who is making some pretty sweet designs. As I have stated before if you read, there are many other car manufacturers that have figured these wheelbase and height dimensions out and created some beautiful cars, so lets stop thinking FFR can not do it as well.

If they have not decided to use the stock seats yet, than this thread was hijacked long ago by someone that assumed they were going to use those seats.

[bbjones121]

I love Shawn's design. I really like the fact that there is some effort to keep a little space in the front trunk. That would be perfect for a weekend suitcase or fabric roof top.

[kach22i]

Problem solved.
Get lower rails for stock WRX seats

That might be a solution for designs now conforming to the template, not for designs which did not allow for proper head room or have been lowered 3" based on a good faith assumption.

I only wish integrated design were as easy as solving one problem at a time without consideration for anything else. You have to consider vehicle access too, and if you seat people like you do in the GTM (on the floor or there-abouts), and then have your side diagonal chassis bar roughly twice as high, you might not be able to get into or out of the car easily.

The diagonal bar might be lowered, the seat might be lowered, all these things are open to conjecture because none of us here on the forum have any say or control over where things are put.

Cost and David using a WRX seat for a photo were not the only reasons I thought an elevated or near stock height is likely to be used. The puzzle is three dimensional and interactive, if it weren't I'd find myself bored and uninterested.

Example: 6'-4" tall drivers accommodated, sitting more or less on the floor, with top of roll bar at about 45" tall. I don't need to strain my brain figuring out where Shawn got his seating layout from. It helps to be able to drop yourself into a bucket like this one without climbing over tall side bars.

http://www.zukun.com/nemesis/nemesis-rendering1.html

[SW1]

Kach22i:

After reviewing many of your posts, it has become clear that my vision for the 818 and many others is much different than yours. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

I see this car as a serious enthusiasts car, the kind of car that looks so good and performs so well that you’re more than willing to put up with some issues that you would not tolerate if this was your everyday Honda Accord.

My Targa design is a couple inches taller than the GTM, therefore my design would accommodate those that are potentially 4 inches taller than the current GTM. I imagine the base car would come with a very inexpensive no frills fixed fiberglass race style seat that is bolted in place on or nearly on the floor. I think it would be nearly impossible to meet the weight goals if a stock WRX seats were used. High sills are inevitable with this style of steel space-frame when good torsional stiffness and low weight are crucial. The more difficult the car is to enter the more enjoyable it is to drive; The owner of the car will develop a good technique and better abs, Everybody wins.

[kach22i]

Kach22i:

After reviewing many of your posts, it has become clear that my vision for the 818 and many others is much different than yours. I think we will have to agree to disagree.

................I imagine the base car would come with a very inexpensive no frills fixed fiberglass race style seat that is bolted in place on or nearly on the floor.

My "vision" is not much more than an educated guess of what FFR's intent is. If FFR provides a template which shows an upright seating position and later someone sits a WRX seat in it, then I can only make a guess, with no personal design decision involved.

You are free to imagine a "no frills fixed fiberglass race style seat" in a street car with global markets in mind if you wish. However, I see no indicators which would lead me to a similar conclusion.

EDIT: I take that back, one indicator if you read between the lines is that when FFR painted on some detail to Jim's scheme, they trimmed the windshield down saying it was mistakenly or inaccurately made too long (high). This tells me they may lower the seating position, or at least they are studying it.

Agree to disagree........yep.

[ElderDragon]

I also really like the Whetstone design. To me it seems to be a distillation of the 818 spirit: elegant simplicity focused on the experience of driving and performance without complexity. The Whetstone design and the Olmos design are the two stand-outs with Whetstone more refined and Olmos more aggressive.

I am curious about people who talk about not fitting in the GTM. I really wanted to build a GTM but the forward visibility is so poor that I could not imagine driving it. You can see better out the back than the front of that car! I am only 6'2" so I cannot imagine how someone who is 6'4" could possible drive the GTM.

[bobzdar]

That might be a solution for designs now conforming to the template, not for designs which did not allow for proper head room or have been lowered 3" based on a good faith assumption.

I only wish integrated design were as easy as solving one problem at a time without consideration for anything else. You have to consider vehicle access too, and if you seat people like you do in the GTM (on the floor or there-abouts), and then have your side diagonal chassis bar roughly twice as high, you might not be able to get into or out of the car easily.

The diagonal bar might be lowered, the seat might be lowered, all these things are open to conjecture because none of us here on the forum have any say or control over where things are put.

Cost and David using a WRX seat for a photo were not the only reasons I thought an elevated or near stock height is likely to be used. The puzzle is three dimensional and interactive, if it weren't I'd find myself bored and uninterested.

Example: 6'-4" tall drivers accommodated, sitting more or less on the floor, with top of roll bar at about 45" tall. I don't need to strain my brain figuring out where Shawn got his seating layout from. It helps to be able to drop yourself into a bucket like this one without climbing over tall side bars.

http://www.zukun.com/nemesis/nemesis-rendering1.html

Here you go, 95" wheelbase, 46" height (stock, can be lowered 2" or so with stock adjustable suspension). Driver is not sitting on the floor. Will comfortably fit a 6'4" driver (according to an owner of that height with one) and up to a 6'5" driver with helmet on. Does not look like anything magical or difficult about it. No sitting on the floor, sills not overly wide etc. Why don't you overlay your template on a 355 and see how it fits? If it doesn't fit, I'd say you might want to revisit the template...

[kach22i]

Why don't you overlay your template on a 355 and see how it fits?

First off it's not my template, it's the FFR template, I only added a larger 95% male over the 50% male by lowering seat (just as you seem to be suggesting), and left the head height alone.

In general a Ferrari's seats are low, at least compared to the upright German seating position of a Porsche. From what I can tell the WRX seats have a 6"-7" seat height, this is very similar to a Porsche (I measured mine).

I think you need to see the seats in question, I've asked before for Subie owner's to measure their seats for me, but no one answered my call.

First some leather covered WRX seats (best photos I could find).

http://ww.leatherseats.com/WRX_leather_kit.asp
WRX_leather_kit01.JPG

http://ww.leatherseats.com/images/sp...ther_kit12.JPG
WRX_leather_kit12.JPG

Ferrari, love that color.
http://gtcarlot.com/data/Ferrari/355.../interior.html
37451500.jpg

Let's say the Subie for argument's sake has a 7" seat height (installed), and the Ferrari a 4" seat height. It would be fair to say there is a 3" difference. Therefore a car which was estimated to be 48" tall (FFR 818), can now be 45" tall, right?

Do you have any idea how much sport seats like this cost?

The budget on this car is getting tossed all over the place. I thought it was supposed to be a $5,000 Legacy donor non turbo 2.5L, now people in other threads are assuming an $11,000 turbo WRX.

The seats are one silly stupid way to keep the costs down. Just saying.

Will comfortably fit a 6'4" driver (according to an owner of that height with one) and up to a 6'5" driver with helmet on........ a 355

I would like to see photos of that, I think that era car is very cramped by todays standards.

Here are my pictures of a Ferrrari 308, yea, my wookie buddy fits so I guess you must be right bobzdar (sarcasm).



Sorry about the hi-jack Shawn.

EDIT-1: I like this photo too.
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...Exotic%20Cars/


EDIT-2:
http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x...2i/Automobile/

[Oppenheimer]

Not that it matters, but the donor was always planned to be a WRX (with the idea that non-turbo Subie power could also be used). The FFR $5K estimate for donor cost was based on a wrecked WRX, not a Legacy or Impreza RS.

[kach22i]

Not that it matters, but the donor was always planned to be a WRX (with the idea that non-turbo Subie power could also be used). The FFR $5K estimate for donor cost was based on a wrecked WRX, not a Legacy or Impreza RS.

Thank you for the clarification Oppenheimer. It was hard keeping up with all the tech talk and options in some of those old threads.

FYI: The Ferrari 308 is only 44" tall, not everyone fits.

http://magnum-mania.com/Articles/The_Ferrari.html

The Ferraris used in the show had to be specially modified to accomodate Tom Selleck, who stands 6'4" tall. The padding was removed from the seats so he would sit lower in the car, and the seats were bolted as far away from the steering wheel as possible to maximize the leg room. Even with these modifications you can still see that Selleck's head is higher than the top of the front windshield frame! You very rarely saw Magnum drive with the top up.

[flytosail]

No, I'm not happy. I asked Shawn in a PM to overlay either a 50% male or 95% male so that I would not be the bad guy or "Template Cop". This should really be self regulating for anyone serious about design, things have to fit no matter what business you are in.

Keep in mind when you view this that a 50% male head height could be where FFR put it if the seat were bolted to the floor. Add in adjustable seat rails, and you add a couple of inches. Add in a 95% male at 6-foot tall and you need yet another 2 inches in height (4" more overall). This means even if our template fits, some adjustment would have to be made in a final design. The closer to the original template, the less painful these changes will be, and the better the chance the original character stays intact.

Link to overlay: Don't click if you don't want to see the results, nobody is forcing you to see it.
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...tstone-013.jpg

Could you do a 5-9 driver?

[mekeys]

img323_1.jpg

This is my favorite design..I didn't find out until the contest was over that it wasn't submitted,because i posted it on FF and not on grassroots..click small picture for a bigger picture..

Mel

[kach22i]

img323_1.jpg

This is my favorite design..I didn't find out until the contest was over that it wasn't submitted,because i posted it on FF and not on grassroots..click small picture for a bigger picture..

Mel

Mel, a nice direction although I think an open top version or something like Shawn did with the top side bars would be more on target. Also true fastbacks are almost impossible to do with the FFR template without a lot of excess metal/fiberglass above the rear wheels. Your car looks to be as low as Shawn's, which of course the majority of submitted designs seem to be.

Did you do any true side (ortho) views?

[mekeys]

Hi kach22i
I appreciate you comment.No i didn't do a side view.Which is strange for me because I have a folder where I have done over 500 designs which are all side views..I just did this one in haste to post.However because most of the ones posted are done with a computer I was pretty sure no one would pay attention to one done with a pencil on a line ruled pad.Most of the submitted entries look Fantastic.So I didn't do any more sketches.I know you have been sticking to the "TEMPLATE",
but I think for a 95 inch wheelbase car the overall height doesn't need to be any higher than 42 inches.I have used as my target the Porsche 550 spyder and it's only an 83" W.B.and pretty low and some are being built with engines other than a V.W.(think subie).To go from a coupe to a roadster shouldn't be a problem.

Mel

[kach22i]

but I think for a 95 inch wheelbase car the overall height doesn't need to be any higher than 42 inches.I have used as my target the Porsche 550 spyder and it's onl

Mel, you are old enough to have seen 550's on the road "in the day", so I assume you know what you are getting into. My Porsche is about 52" tall and you would not believe how much my little car gets bullied on the road. For example, recently a little old lady in a Ford Explorer behind me got all confused when our single lane road had extra room on the side for a bike path. She decided it was a good idea to drive in my blind spot about 2-feet off my rear bumper because my little car was not filling up the road, and just did not deserve a full lane. Not only was she in the bike path but there was no safety distance, the other cars behind her were just as alarmed as me and stayed way back. It's crazy out there, be careful.

[mekeys]

Well George do you plan to give up driving your Porsche ?.Anyway I have a project I should be working on.I have a mould from a car I designed in 1960 and I have a chassis so now all I need is a place to work on it..Picture of my car is in and earlier thread the one you just posted in this morning..(11/2/11)page one..

Mel Keys

[kach22i]

Well George do you plan to give up driving your Porsche ?.Anyway I have a project I should be working on.I have a mould from a car I designed in 1960 and I have a chassis so now all I need is a place to work on it..Picture of my car is in and earlier thread the one you just posted in this morning..(11/2/11)page one..

Mel Keys

I'd like to have a better Porsche (mine is very entry level), but will not give up the old one before a new one is in the driveway.

I too have dreams of building my own car body, an 818 type car is something I've thought about for years, long before there was an 818 or before I knew about FFR.

I need more time, money and a larger garage..............that's all, and I'm home free.

EDIT-1: I measured how tall my old 911 is, got 49-1/2" not 52", might be time sag or lower than original stock tires. Or the car is sitting in the gravel ruts, will have to measure again on flat pavement.

[bbjones121]

We are worried about this car not being tall enough that other drivers can see it? We have gone down this road before and I say if you are worried about that, then you should not be behind the wheel of the 818. You may not want to be on the road at all if it scares you that much.

[kach22i]

We are worried about this car not being tall enough that other drivers can see it? We have gone down this road before and I say if you are worried about that, then you should not be behind the wheel of the 818. You may not want to be on the road at all if it scares you that much.

It should scare you enough to be a defensive driver, otherwise it could be dangerous for everyone including yourself.

http://www.motoristpassion.com/2011/...tial-tips.html
defensive-driving.jpg