Design Model - O's - Feedback and Suggestions

[RodneyO]

Hi everyone,

I thought it would fun to start a thread where everyone can talk and may be focus on one model per thread. That way it makes it easy to track what people like or dislike about specific models, this would also help the FFR guys see all created comments in one place, any thoughts?

I have been a bit busy reading all the comments and feedback and I have made some adjustments based off of them. I feel so bad that I didn't check the width of my car after I doubled checked it in 3d space, I was about 6+ inches on each side. I will try to use this thread to post images or anything that I've done so far, and may be explain some of the thoughts that went in the back for designing certain elements on the car, but that will just make this first post very long =) and boring.

I'd rather show you this cool 3d viewer I put together to see the car, this 3d model has the width adjusted to the correct width, fixed the nose so it doesn't give the illusion that it is small, it also tries... to allow room for fatter tires, the stock 215 on WRXs would bug me way to much I want 255s in there :P. and just misc. fixes.

cheers and here is the link to the 3d Viewer and some renders that were done for FFR.

http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/venom/

I apologize in advanced, you will need to install the unity plugin when you first load it, and again I'm sorry because it isn't optimized so it may require a good video card.
Blue Direct Back.jpgBlue Direct Front.jpgBlue Front.jpgBlue Side.jpgBlueBack.jpg

[slopoke]

Someone did an alternative rendering of the nose (not sure which thread)... but what a difference it made. Not to take anything away from what you've done ... it just seemed to pull it all together. The 3D really puts it in a better perspective. How about a removable hard top or a coupe model. Did I that I like it? ...

[Benji]

The windscreen from the side view looks a little long? Is that just a perspective thing?

I guess it works on the scale model so probably just the perspective. I must admit I was never a fan of your design but the more I look at it in more detail, the more I like it and for FFR it's probably the easiest to implement as a topless car (with provisions for having the windows and targa to) and then offer the side windows and targa top at a later date for extra.

Also note that unless I've missed something, the side windows could actually wind down as well.

I think it's just the front that is holding people back, perhaps the rear a little as well, unfortunately I have no advice on how these could be redone in such a way that would be more appealing to the masses at the same time as working with the rest of your rest of your design and it all connecting.

I'm really liking it though, it's the unique aspect of it.

[bromikl]

I really like the idea of a separate thread for each design. Thanks O, for opening up your design to suggestions from the rest of us.

About your design, I'll take your word for it that the track width has been corrected. But you have since introduced other physical impossibilities (maybe I didn't see them before.) The tire size and brake rotors are the most glaring. Can we see some realistic proportions? Let's go with stock rims and tires, and leave the design able to handle your ideal tire size. Second, there is no room in your current version for wheel travel.

I'm a big fan of the concept, but let's put the "un-buildable" and "cartoon-ish" criticisms to rest.

[VTX]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

olmos_mod1.jpg

It would be interesting to see someone take this concept and do multi-view drawings of it. I would, but I just don't have the time.

[Steve91T]

First of all, let me say that I would build that as it sits. One thing I'd like to see is a radiator exit in the hood. Especially with the design that you have in the hood, you'd probably be able to open it up without it being very noticeable.

I think I'd like to see it with less black plastic on the front and rear. Mostly the front though. It looks like it isn't finished. What if you took all the black out of the front, and then tweaked the design to make it look good again?

This one is probably my favorite.
Steve

[Steve91T]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

olmos_mod1.jpg

It would be interesting to see someone take this concept and do multi-view drawings of it. I would, but I just don't have the time.

I think it's a step in the right direction, but that one needs help. It doesn't flow at all. Especially with the rear. Maybe a compromise? Somewhere between the original and this one?

[VTX]

Feel free to further modify it. I just spent about 15min in photoshop to rough that up. I probably wouldn't have the time to really spend time with it, but I'm hoping that someone else will.

[kach22i]

Hi everyone,

I thought it would fun to start a thread where everyone can talk and may be focus on one model per thread. That way it makes it easy to track what people like or dislike about specific models, this would also help the FFR guys see all created comments in one place, any thoughts?

This thread is a good idea, thank you for starting it.

The biggest criticisms have been it looks like a toy or a VW based kit car from the 1970's. If there is anything you can do to address these concerns without nurturing it, now would be the time to do it.

While you are in there:
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x...de-flipped.jpg

[Steve91T]

Feel free to further modify it. I just spent about 15min in photoshop to rough that up. I probably wouldn't have the time to really spend time with it, but I'm hoping that someone else will.

Nahh, I'd butcher it. I'll let someone else do it.

[BipDBo]

The hourglass shape looks to make for a cramped cockpit, much like the C3 Corvette. The C3 was maligned not just for it's 70's era engine, but also for being one of the largest Vettes, with the smallest interior. It also has very low door panels. This all makes for a car that you would not want to be in while in an accident, especially side impact. The NASCAR CoT has a chassis that has expanded dimensions in all directions to give as much crush zone as possible.

[Oppenheimer]

The biggest criticisms have been it looks like a toy or a VW based kit car from the 1970's. If there is anything you can do to address these concerns without nueturing it, now would be the time to do it.

Yes, that sums up my concerns. I don't mind a car that draws attention, but not if its because people are pointing and laughing. I don't want to drive around in a cartoon.

The other models FFR is working on may look tame to some, but you have to be able to 'see' what they are going to look like in full scale. In full scale I fear this design will look clownish.

[Steve91T]

I could be wrong, but I think it's going to look better in full size.

[dclin]

Yes, that sums up my concerns. I don't mind a car that draws attention, but not if its because people are pointing and laughing. I don't want to drive around in a cartoon.

The other models FFR is working on may look tame to some, but you have to be able to 'see' what they are going to look like in full scale. In full scale I fear this design will look clownish.

What you're alluding to is that those of us that prefer Rodney's design aren't able to envision anything beyond the model or concept renderings? I could easily say the same about the other models. Even with the details added to the Jim's design that was just posted, it still doesn't hide the fact there is little, cohesive design language; it's like vents and scoops that might be appealing/interesting to look at were lifted off different cars, and placed together on the model. All the elements look great in of themselves, but don't quite seem to work together somehow (as much as I would like).

I like Rodney's design for the same reason I like the KTM X-Bow. The body speaks to a singular purpose, and posses none of the me too styling that is all to prevalent in major manufacturers. The design carries throughout the car. My perception is that Jim's design was designed from 'details, out', whereas Rodney's design was from 'outwards, in'.

I will say this, however, the more I look at that front end, the more it needs to change. The 'blackout' area of the front really wasn't visible in the 'winners' presentation (the blue model version that was posted); I only saw the grill details recently posted from this link:

http://rodneyolmos.com/factoryfive/v2/index.php

It looks too much like a human face, and I hate it when designers apply too literally human/animal/female attributes to a design. That, I agree, is cheesy.

Rodney, could you play with VTX's design? I really like the direction he took the front end. Also, to clarify, those new renderings (besides the 3D viewer) are of the 'narrowed' version?

[dclin]

The hourglass shape looks to make for a cramped cockpit, much like the C3 Corvette. The C3 was maligned not just for it's 70's era engine, but also for being one of the largest Vettes, with the smallest interior. It also has very low door panels. This all makes for a car that you would not want to be in while in an accident, especially side impact. The NASCAR CoT has a chassis that has expanded dimensions in all directions to give as much crush zone as possible.

Heaven help all the Elise or Cobra (replica) owners, let alone motorcyclists like myself. I'm sure none of us would like to be hit from the side either. To insinuate that the other designs would afford any real, measurable protection is a bit of armchair engineering. I will make a honest statement; as much as I know the lengths F5 will go to their products safe, I rather be hit in the side of a production car, versus ANY kit car. F5, or any other kit car manufacturer, simply does not have the resources to conduct exhaustive collision tests like the big manufacturers do. When I sign up to build a kit car, I would imagine that be obvious, and accept the inherent risk. Or if I'm feeling really lucky, Ill just hop on my bike.

[PhyrraM]

...... When I sign up to build a kit car, ...... (I) accept the inherent risk.......

True.

I would go a step further and say that FFR can use this fact as an opportunity to do things that OEMs don't, or can no longer, do. Things like low window/beltlines that afford great visability for tire placement accuracy. Low(ish) and visually light front and rear facias.

Most of the designs are taking currently popular OEM trends and applying them (needlessly) to the 818. However, many of the OEM trends are dictated by requirements that the 818 simply does not have. Let's leverage the advantages of the format......

[RodneyO]

Also, to clarify, those new renderings (besides the 3D viewer) are of the 'narrowed' version?

No, those blue renders are the wide version. When I get a chance I will do new renders, but I wan to do all suggested edits before doing that. I will upload revisions to the 3d viewer as time goes on.

[dclin]

No, those blue renders are the wide version. When I get a chance I will do new renders, but I wan to do all suggested edits before doing that. I will upload revisions to the 3d viewer as time goes on.

Ok, sounds good.

Quick question for anybody - why exactly is the track width set to what F5 is specifying? Race homolgation reasons? Common dimensions for the ability to to interchange bodies? If it simply means having the additional cost of creating a front and rear subframe (and longer half shafts) to widen the pickup points of the suspension to keep Rodney's design, I'd gladly pay the $1-2k extra I would imagine it would cost.

[PhyrraM]

...Quick question for anybody - why exactly is the track width set to what F5 is specifying? ....

Going way back on some reading, but there is a "golden ratio" between wheelbase and track width for race cars. I forget why the ratio exists or is regarded as optimum, but I do recall it was an important aspect of race car design.

[scartaan]

Rodney-
An inspired design! You appear to have worked out separate panels to allow production in color without any need to prep for paint etc. Love the VanDyke in the front giving a sophisticated male image. Could this be a faint homage to the D-Type Jaguar?

[Flamshackle]

Freakin love it Rodney! great work I would build this in a heart beat! Yours was my 2nd place choice just after Xabiers... But my wife likes yours best!

[mentatbashar]

The wheels you designed really compliments the body design. I especially like the hint of redline on there. Is that on the wheel or tire? I'd build this car as long as the wheels came with the kit too!

Well done!

[BipDBo]

Heaven help all the Elise or Cobra (replica) owners, let alone motorcyclists like myself. I'm sure none of us would like to be hit from the side either. To insinuate that the other designs would afford any real, measurable protection is a bit of armchair engineering. I will make a honest statement; as much as I know the lengths F5 will go to their products safe, I rather be hit in the side of a production car, versus ANY kit car. F5, or any other kit car manufacturer, simply does not have the resources to conduct exhaustive collision tests like the big manufacturers do. When I sign up to build a kit car, I would imagine that be obvious, and accept the inherent risk. Or if I'm feeling really lucky, Ill just hop on my bike.

True enough. Whenever I've asked the question about crash worthiness, I gotten a vague statement about racing standards, blah, blah. I'm not really buying it, and I'm not going to pretend that any kit car will be as safe as a tested production vehicle. I would like it to be as safe as possible, especially if it is to be raced. Simple common sense like maximizing cage dimensions around the occupants will work to that goal.

[apexanimal]

nb miata meets viper...

i still like it

[Nelff]

This car with the modified front end is what I want. Remember when Ford put out the Probe? The original name for the Probe was Mustang. Yeah, bland, boring and if Ford would have put the 'new' Mustang out it would have killed the brand. Dave keeps saying that he wants to set peoples hair on fire. This 818 body HAS to be sexy with a lot of POW! All of the mid-engined supercars have low sexy front ends. I keep seeing catfish mouth in the other designs. I don't want just some 'detail' here and there. I want curves, bulging fenders (not just flairs) a mean looking front end and a rear that throws up spray from a diffuser.

Putting all of these designs on a 360 viewable platform is the best ides that has come along...

and I still like this design with the revised nose....

[Flamshackle]

After looking at the 3D render alot (like 30mins of swinging the car around with my mouse) I LOVE IT!

I think this car is sensational and meets the requirements of Dave Smith to light my hair on fire. In the fleash it would look like a true (mini) supercar.

[flyboy2160]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

olmos_mod1.jpg

......

I also like VTX's nose better than the original. I didn't see the original nose details until this thread-I didn't see them in the 1/4 scale reveal video. I don't care for the angry animal eyes look; the original upright blunt nose would probably look great without the angry eyes aspect, much like the old Plymouth Speedster concept car. But overall I still like this car the best. In the 1/4 scale reveal video this is a knockout. It looks better there than in any of the 2D sketches.

[kach22i]

I also like VTX's nose better than the original.

So do I, just thinking of keeping the headlight up higher might be a good thing, safety wise.

Playing around, smoothed out the hood crease, felt like it was hiding an engine. Put more paint up front, not so mask-like now.

Original "O":

Modified "O":

[PhyrraM]

This design is getting better. However, the attempt at a super short front overhang (whick I like in theory) is making the nose too abruptly blunt. Some type of comprimise needs to be done here. I don't really have a problem with the "style", just the bluntness. (if that makes sense)

Also, why does the back end keep rising (side view) even after the crest of the sheel centerline? The back looks too heavy compared to the front. Tame down the Headrest fairings and the rear end can drop faster and look much lighter visually, resulting in better balance.

I like the low windowline, too many modern cars (and 818 designs) have super high beltlines and little tank style window slits. (think 300M ugliness)

I would like to see the 3D model interfaced with the prototype chassis and a so-called 90% male figure. Something about this design still seems off as far as being buildable and inhabitable at the same time, but it could just be my eyes.

Either way, this thread still has the Olmos design in 3rd place for me, but it IS looking more attractive than the original drawings.

[305mouse]

I don't like all the black plastic in the front. I like how Kach22i altered the front for the most part. I say make the whole front the same blue color and bring back the original grille, it looks like it's pissed at the road.

[scartaan]

Rodney-
I feel your design is brilliant. You might consider the next step, which would be production. How do you envision the integration of the roll bar? Would you consider making the rear window permanent to help control engine noise and back draft? One of the production problems is door fit which is why Jim Shenck made his door fit "inside" the front fender to make this easier. Could you make your door shorter so it did not involve the black area? Addressing some of these problems and even talking to Jim might lead to some minor changes in your design to increase "our" chances of being selected.

[kitcarj]

could we swap the nose for Shawn Whetstone's or the Vantage's front? Wish I was a whiz with photo editing software.

[dclin]

I'm the one that did the alternate nose:

olmos_mod1.jpg

It would be interesting to see someone take this concept and do multi-view drawings of it. I would, but I just don't have the time.

Can somebody leave the center, leading edge of the 'hood' about where it is, and pull the headlights up and back a little bit? I'm thinking this will give it front a more traditional, wedge front - less of the bluntness that was mentioned

[dclin]

Going way back on some reading, but there is a "golden ratio" between wheelbase and track width for race cars. I forget why the ratio exists or is regarded as optimum, but I do recall it was an important aspect of race car design.

Ah, got it - thanks!

[rori]

I don't have anything to add other than that this is the kit that I want to build!

[Oppenheimer]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

I don't have to like it to respect it. But I can't respect it if I don't know what's good about it. And right now I just don't know what's good about it. Help me see what you see.

[onyx_riddle]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

I don't have to like it to respect it. But I can't respect it if I don't know what's good about it. And right now I just don't know what's good about it. Help me see what you see.

I think I know. It's a sort of sense of "rugged awesomeness". It has a radical design due to the sweeping body but the bubble people carriage. The front end looks like an evil star wars character with jack sparrow earrings and the style and flare of an Exige. The reason it works so well is, for one, it is an excellent execution. This took talent. Also, the overall look of the car doesn't reach for Ferrari elitism. It doesnt scream "I'm a Porsche". It looks like its gona tear you a new one. It's one if my top 3. The image if the clay model sucked. But the images on his website make this thing awesome.

[Flamshackle]

OK, so to each his own and all, but I really don't get what people like about this design. But it turns out there are so many of you that like it, and it was a contest winner. So its obviously got something going for it. People, normal people, really do like it.

But I'm just not seeing it. I'm trying to be open minded. So tell me what you like about it. I don't expect you to try to make me like it, just help me have respect for it. I'm not trying to start an argument, I sincerely want to know why so many like this design. I respect the opinion of many of you, so I want to respect your choice as well.

Well you must be partially blind to not see plainly how awesome this car looks ... have you checked out the 3D movable/changeable colour page?

For me its the wide stance (even once reduced as per Rodneys 3D animated page) hourglass shape, high rear arches (ala super hot Ferrari 458 Italia)
Super crisp lines as well as beautiful curves.

The only part I wish were better (and I have no idea quite how to change it) would be the look from directly in front. its face could do with surgery IMO. I absolutely love the rest...

The more I look at it the closer the gap between Xabiers car and this baby supercar look. So much so that its probably now tied for 1st place in my books nd I would happily build either now.

[crackedcornish]

anybody else notice this...if you do the 3d version in pink, the way the body creases on the hood are now, it makes it look like it's sticking its tongue out

Hood needs to be more concave/lower and vented.

I like the way the doors are on the blue stills, as apposed to the 3d version. Was anything else changed between the two (besides the width at the rear)?

I have a concern about the area around the back window/deck lid. With that high crease back there, it looks like it would hold water against the bottom of the back window if it were parked out in the rain...unless where the black meets the body color back there, is spaced to be a vent (can't really tell from the pics or 3d model)

Rear end might look better with a body colored bumper and perhaps the front end would too

...oh and the butt is a little high, reminds me of a bustle, would look better at the same height as the front fenders (which are a touch high as well)

other than that I like it

[shinn497]

First, it is original. People compare nouphone's to an aston martin or a maserati, xabier to a pininfarina design, and Jim's to Mr2/s200/hyundai. This really doesn't resemble anything other than itself.

It is aggressive, the flared out fenders, sweeping profile, little angles make for a car that screams performance.

It is elegant. There aren't fins out of the wazoo. In addition, there are no straight lines, or parts that jut out of nowhere. It is curvy, but not in too much of a european way.

I think the biggest schizm that is occurring ,due to olmos's design, is its uniqueness. Which kind of makes sense. People seem to want kit cars to be something they are not. They look and say, I want a ferrari, or a porsche. 3 of factory fives designs are replicas (replicas that are better performing and cheaper than their originals ironically ). The GTM is inspired by the GT40 . I think that people have similiar expectations from the 818. Even though its an original people people seem to want it to evoke a car that is more expensive and with more prestige. They fear that to not have something recognizable, is something laughable.


But I say be proud that its a kit car and an FFR. The beauty of such a car is that not everyone can own one, not because it requires money, but because it requires perserverance and dedication. If it is weird or laughed at than so be it. This car will have unlimited potential built on a rock solid foundation. I'd want that even if it looks like a giant bannana.

Also Olmos looks REALLY good with a spoiler and low-pro's