818 Sample Model 4

[Dave Smith]

I asked John (who is our master shaper) to put a bit of detail into one of the models. I picked Jim's model because I was considering taking it to SEMA and wanted to see it a bit more refined than last Saturday. John added some minor details and we took some better quality pictures. I think the difference is quite dramatic and feel like the top of my head is getting warmer (higher HoF quotient).

You guys asked for some better images and if your feedback here matches how I'm feeling, we might go further with the models (the SEMA truck left this morning so to get all 4 models to a higher level of detail will have to wait until after SEMA). I think the difference is dramatic, but you guys should be the judges.


I took the liberty of chopping the windshield, although I would like to see it more raked as the model appears to have been milled a bit off when it comes to windshield rake.


Right front corner from a higher elevation shows the rear end that is often lost of these corner shots.


This photo shows how the rear end doesn't really get proper notice.


At first, I thought this was an AMG Mercedes. I really like these lines, although I'm still not sold on the radiator opening.


Another hood detail since so many people had issues with Jim's hood.


This shot reminds me of a 355 Ferrari stance.


Here's a rear quarter elevation shot.

[Dave Smith]

This is a great shot of the rear clip that shows how much detail is really in the shape.


This photo shows how dramatic the rear radius are in the fender. Previous photos don't really show the rear clip well.


From this angle, the flair is lost a bit, but the width of the rear end comes through better. The car really does have a wide rear end that communicates a mini-supercar feel.


Image from Saturday's 818 Project Update shows very little detail.

[Steve91T]

Jim's model was my least favorite, until now. That looks so much better with all of the detail. What a difference! It has great lines and functionality. This one honestly is now one of my favorites.


You guys are doing a really great job.

Steve

[VTX]

Sorry, but I'm still not a fan. My initial impression is a body kitted "ricer" to me, especially the front. I also don't like those headlights at all.

I hope this isn't offensive, but I just wanted to give my honest opinion.

[riptide motorsport]

looks good to me.

[Dave Smith]

More than the degree to which you may or may not like it, I think the excercise shows that the scale model only gives an "idea" of the car. I am really struggling with commiting more money to some additional models or more time in CAD as I think the evolution of current designs vs. adding a few all-new ones is one of the battles to consider.

[BipDBo]

It looks much better with the details. I'll have to revise my statement about it looking like a Camry with a truckload of fiberglass bolt-ons to say that it's a decent looking car. It doesn't light my hair on fire, and it's not my favorite. I just think that you have some much better models. The blue Olmos car gets me excited and the black Nouphone car sets my hair on fire. Behind the wheel of the Nouphone design, I'd feel like 007. Personally, I think that you should take all of the models to SEMA. Everyone has different tastes, so you can give everyone something to swoon over. Also, you can get a lot of valuable first impression feedback. If you have time to add these details, that would be of great value.

[PhyrraM]

Why did Jim pick Camry lights as a starting point? They are huge. I think the choice of lights is dictating the lines of the front of the car too much.

The rear is looking much better.

Still think the overall is too mechanical to really set many HoF.

The radiator opening needs to be wider and ditch the brake cooling vents for some foglights or something. The street version does not need all the detracting scoops, vents, etc. All they add is visual clutter (IMHO, of course).

If your going to do a "shifted panel" type of thing for the front fender exhaust vents, why not try the same effect on the rear fender inlet. The current air scoop is not flowing with the design.

Lower the seat/deck fairings a bit.

Constructive criticism aside....It's looking pretty decent.

[flyboy2160]

I like this even less now. The body overwhelms the wheels, especially in the side view. The front overhang and bulk of the front of the car are too large. Why is the front overhang so much larger than the rear overhang? This just looks like a "kit car," like the list somebody posted on the other thread. I still like the Olmos design much more than this....

[PhyrraM]

..... The body overwhelms the wheels, especially in the side view. .......

I agree, but "Wookie size" and "Donor sized wheels" (dictated by $9900 goal) don't leave much other choice.

[ScottKoschwitz]

Overall, I like it even more now. You can definitely see more of the detail now. I li,e that we can see the shutlines as well. Looks like we'll have a trunk, and I like the fact that the body will not be all one piece.

As for constructive criticism: I like everything after the leading edge of the front wheel. I agree that the front overhang appears to be a little long for a mid-engined car. Also, I think the "face" is too exaggerated; the headlights look a little too large, and the lower portion of the front looks too like an overly large mouth.

[Steve91T]

What I'm excited about is how much of a difference adding the detail made. I agree with most of the comments here. The rear vents do need work. They still remind me of the MRS.

It's going to end up looking like a really great car. I can't wait to see the detail with the other cars.

[onyx_riddle]

I adore what's happening here. You have an excellent team. Keep it up. I am saving as we speak.

[adesilva]

I think that the car looks 100x better than what we previously saw. It still doesnt give me the HOF feeling but if I were to see that in person I would now think it was a pretty good looking car.

What it makes me think now is what the others would look like with this kind of detail (Mainly Nouphone model because I really feel it would have a nice Aston Martin look that I love, someone also mentioned feeling like 007 which goes with my thoughts) As of right now you guys have a difficult decision to make mainly because of how expensive it is to do all this stuff. I trust that Dave and his team will make the right decision (if their even is one) in the end and we will end up with one very sexy car

[thebeerbaron]

I've been quiet and flip-flopping internally this week, but this goes back to my statement (now on film!) that Jim's design had the most potential. I think there's still some things I'd want to refine, but adding in the panel lines and details really brought out the design.

I'd really love to see this thing in full-scale. The difference between 1/4 and full-scale is amazing.

One of the things that came out during Saturday's reveal was just how much production and assembly constraints impact the body design. And I think Jim knows those constraints better than anyone.

Is it as hair-incinerating as I had hoped? Not really. But it's getting there. I could see the Race version going to production now and a refined street version following that up.

[vozproto]

Still love the car UNTIL you get fwd of the windscreen.
Allow me to demonstrate without saying it looks like an MR...





The front hood lines and headlights still need some attention.

[onyx_riddle]

As for constructive criticism: I like everything after the leading edge of the front wheel. I agree that the front overhang appears to be a little long for a mid-engined car. Also, I think the "face" is too exaggerated; the headlights look a little too large, and the lower portion of the front looks too like an overly large mouth.

I can somewhat agree with this. The front end does look a little too exaggerated. This is obviously a concept so far so I don't feel disappointed. I think the real culprit behind the negativity that some have shown when voicing their opinions is due to the fact that we all have an idea of what we would want it to look like. I want it to look like a 459 Italia or a Carerra GT. Obviously this won't happen. I guess if i had to complain though I would probably say that the front end just doesn't work as-is. It would make a great car right now. Slap in a motor and ill drive it. But this isn't meant to be a Mazda. It will more than likely rival Elise's on the track. So I say nix the blitz front end, at most. The rest is sexy as Hell. Minus the front end, it looks like a car that came from the same company that built a $50k Enzo killer.

Keep on kickin it, guys. I love it!

[vozproto]

A followup to my own post.

There will obviously be more design changes and reviews to come.

Maybe we can take THIS model (or whichever is deemed to have the most potential) and toss it to our community chock full of VERY talented designers to try and tweak it and give it a soul.

We have been a very collaborative community up to this point. Why leave this next round of design behind closed doors?

[Vman7]

I just don't like the front area that much.

[wooward]

I agree that the model does look drastically different. I'd like to see the other 3 done as well so I can make a better decision.

Will the High MPG and track bodies be bolt ons for the roadster? I'm curious because I want to get a body that sets my HoF and if the roadster body doesn't, I'd like to wait to see what the other bodies are. Hopefully one is Shawn Weston's. I could definitely do with the Targa.

[shinn497]

BIG Improvement and very good point made about how little details and picture quality can effect the design. One has to wonder why you are commiting resources to this model when it was the least liked. Esp cosidering the support for Olmos and Xabier.

I think the big complaint with this design is that it looks too much like a rounded rectangle. Especially in profile, it does not look as sleek.

[Gary in NJ]

Dave,

I think adding details made the model easier to interpret. I would be interested in seeing similar details added to the other models.

[skullandbones]

I'm not a designer but I can tell you the grille opening does not fit at all. Just as a starting point (suggestion): ditch the small vents widen the grille opening. Take the slight curve out of the bar on top and maybe add a splitter in the opening to further narrow the look of the opening. Someone concentrating just on the grille (designer) could make the front match the great design of the rest of it much better. I do like it for the most part. It's just that grille that is a turnoff. WEK.

[AVIONX]

If people think Xabiers car looks too much like an aggressive catfish. That beats this fem looking catfish face all day long. It has been said many time. And the voting clearly bears this out. We all wants Jims design to tbe the best, but designing a mind blowing world class exterior is just nit his appearent strong point.
MUST FIXES. Everything that makes this thing look like it has a Viper V10 under the front hood. Front fenders not flush with doors. Fenders look like soneone took an unflared lame original design, then flared them, then added lips to make them look "flarier" Bleck This is a hodge podge design. Xabiers blows it away. So do most of the other designs. Please stop trying to "elevate" this design becuase we like Jim so much. Elevate the best design. And everyone will be the happiest, and most satisfied.

[Dave Smith]

"fem looking catfish" "Hodge podge design" . Hmm. I havent elevated any design, simply picked one for reasons of time and guys, to do as you guys asked and show pictures with better detail. If the better photos/detail was helpful, it was my intention to do more. Still, bridging the gap seems pretty unlikely here and it may be that we strike out in a new direction altogether. My simple goal and about 25 man hours went into this request, to put more details on and ask sensible questions about the process in a respectful way. I am welcome to all points of view. The design goals set forth a year ago, the chassis work, running gear slection, body design competition, presentation of project status, expertise of suppliers, efforts of super-talented people, and even the present shape of one of four designs in scale form (which admitedly lacks clear translation to full-size ergo Barbie syndrome), made worse by the KNOWN translational differences between print and real space... All of them beg for some constructive criticism and a bit of lattitude. No-one here wants a bunch of "yes" men... still, I would buy this car for $9,900 and build it under $15K as it is right now. My goals are just much higher. I think I have thick enough skin because I've done this five times before in differing degrees. Thaks for the candor though, it helps us tremendously as I would rather not go to market with a fem catfish car.

[VTX]

The new details, camera angles, telephoto, etc., all definitely help to give a much more realistic impression of what the car would really look like. So, as far as that goes I think you succeeded in that goal. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

[onyx_riddle]

I would quote you, but I would sound like a kiss-***. The open-ended design process you have going on just blows my mind. And the patience to absorb the criticism and spit out great products. That's why you are where you are. We need more people like you running the big names in this country. The responsibilities of a CEO are hard enough and you willingly add an extra element of democracy. This is now my homepage.

[ElderDragon]

Wow, I am really impressed with how much this car looks like a real vehicle with the details added! Just glancing quickly it actually looks like a real car!

On the flip side, I still really dislike this design, especially given how many fantastic submissions were made for the contest.

[Psay]

What a difference these details have made. It is still far from my favourite design, however, what it proves is that carrying out similar work on the other three designs and with the same type of photographs we should take us a step closer to a HOF experience.

[jimgood]

The details really make a difference. I didn't have a problem with this design before but the added detail really sets it off. I'd build one. I don't have an artists eye so I'm not bothered by some of the things around which most complaints are centered. Camry headlights? Who cares. They look good to me. Catfish mouth? Hardly. I've been up close and personal with a few catfish and this looks more like a goldfish. Regardless, it looks right for this car. Build it, Dave.

[Michael Lye]

Hi Dave,

I've got to give you guys a lot of credit. You're doing a great job on the 818. And to do the detailing on Jim's car, re-photograph it and get it up here while you're getting ready for SEMA is a sign of your real commitment to the forum members and this process. I do have a little general advice (worth every penny you're paying for it...) that may also be worth considering by the folks here.

1) You'll never satisfy everyone. No matter what you do there will be those that like something else better. And if you try to satisfy as many people as possible you've got a Camry or Taurus.

2) Don't give up on a concept as a result of criticism. Understanding and incorporating the criticism (when appropriate) can help to refine a concept. But see point 1.

3) "A camel is a horse designed by a committee." Or to put it another way: design is not a democratic process. Ultimately it's FFR job to use your vision to design and make the car you think is best. I'm pretty confident (understatement) that it will be an amazing car that many people will really want to buy. If you were to make ALL the changes everyone has suggested here, you'd end up with a pretty ugly toad. It might be Prince Charming in driving dynamics but it'd sure be ugly.

4) Finally (at least for now!) the first version you create won't satisfy everyone (point 1) and neither will the second, or the third but those that don't like the first may really like the second or third versions. The swatch watch approach gives you so many opportunities. Limited edition body styles? Really wild custom one-offs? An annual design contest with a new body going into limited production to replace older versions?

Okay so those last two ideas were just to see if both Dave and Jim start twitching!

Really though, I realize Dave already knows all this stuff. But it's still good to remember it. And for the folks reading this, I hate to say it but some of you (probably very few) might be a little disappointed at first when the initial 818 is released. But if you really don't like it, the next version might just be your cup of tea - or should that be cup of Red Bull. Tea sounds to sedate and I think Dave and crew are going to have to live on energy drinks to try to deal with everyone's impatience!

Michael

[onyx_riddle]

I haven't seen this asked yet.. but do we know what colors your new no-paint kits can come in? This I find very interesting.

[adesilva]

I haven't seen this asked yet.. but do we know what colors your new no-paint kits can come in? This I find very interesting.

I believe we will be able to get a selection of colors but I know Dave has stated that Dark and Light colors would need different molds so we may be restricted to one or the other when the kit is first released.

[onyx_riddle]

I believe we will be able to get a selection of colors but I know Dave has stated that Dark and Light colors would need different molds so we may be restricted to one or the other when the kit is first released.

Sounds great! Thanks for the info!

[slopoke]

Dave ... my faith restored .... the difference is dramatic. It's amazing what a little definition can do. I can't wait to see the others this way ... It will definately help with the tweaking of the designs

[Oppenheimer]

Remember the movie "He Got Game"? Denzel and Ray Allen, HS basketball star has to decide which College to go with? Spike Lee tells the story that he had a dilema for the lead role, pick an actor, teach him to play B-Ball, or find a B-Baller and teach him acting. He went with the athlete, Ray Allen.

Dave, it seems you have a similar dilema. Go with the model you got, teach it set HoF, or go with one of the other contest submissions that already set HoF, and teach it to be manufacturable, to fit the template, etc.

Which, in the end, will involve less effort? Which will end up with a better result?

To try and answer that, I can't help but revisit the question of why the top 3 contest winners were chosen to model? The judeges were not tasked with picking a manufacturable design. They weren't told their choices had to fit the template. FFR never committed to baseing the 818 design on the contest winner(s).

Maybe there are designs among the 700 club that didn't win, yet would be manufacturable, do fit the template enough to make work, and that already set lots of HoF. So my suggestion is the following:

- go back to the 700 club, weed out anything that isn't feasible. That can't be tweaked to be manufacturable, or to fit the template
- Then you and the FFR guys go through those and pare them down to the top 10 or so
- Then present those to us to vote on

If there are 3 or so that really stand out, that really set HoF, then work with those instead. Model them, tweak those designs further to really make them pop. If there is no clear consensus, you can stick with the models you got, you did your due diligence.

This effort would take a little time, but not much $. You don't have to worry about sinking a bunch of cash into alternate designs only to find out people like the original models better.

[slopoke]

... and just my other $.02 ... I REALLY like the wheel design on the charcoal model. Is there any way that these can be brought to fruition (offered as an option maybe? ) I think they would look good on any of the four models.

[Dave Smith]

Still, the truth is that great design is great design and for the 818 to be the car that I KNOW it can be (in three variants), we HAVE to have a shape that is jaw-dropping gorgeous. I think the criticism is fair and needed and that in the end, it will be our unwavering commitment to that shape being more than just Ok. When we get back from SEMA I will try and get the other cars shot and posted similar to keep things on an even keel. My problem is that I dont have that feeling yet... let me explain,

I bought a Ferrari 360 from a guy for very short money back when the economy crashed. I drove it a bit and planned to sell it for a small gain. The car was a very good driving car (not as fast as my GTM but with superior coachwork for sure). Anyway, the point is that the shape was better every time I looked at it. In the short time I had it I found myself looking at it for longer and longer periods of time. I do that with my roadsters, for sure my Coupe, and especially my GTM. After about a year I sold the Ferrari (broke dead even ugh), I'm not a Ferrari guy plain and simple. But the shape that pinninfarina sculpted never faded.

We are not pinninfarina, but to join the ranks of FFR cars, the 818 in all it's forms will have to be a shape that makes you look at it longer and longer. This process is helping that happen and despite my "feelings" or those of anyone at FFR (OR anyone who submitted a design that didnt make it), the discourse of our community is central to the moment in time when we pull back a car cover and reveal to the world what mad men we truly are!

[fateo66]

I'm sorry but I still do not like this design. I think it looks to close to the Subaru kit car that is already available; the Murtaya

[kitcarj]

This was my first pick of the 1/4 scale models and it helps a lot to see it finished like this but it isn't as exciting as I had hoped. It looks like a nice tuner kit on an Eclipse or Toyota MRS.