818 Sample Model 4

[kitcarj]

Dave, I think you have a whole set of guys waiting for this car that wouldn't care if it looked like a Yugo if it meets the track performance you are expecting. I am the opposite, but releasing something suitable for that (and the guys that like that particular design would be happy also) would give you something to get cash flow in case it takes longer to work out the HoF cars. It would also get some real world use to the chassis and build process to work out any remaining kinks.

[Tpa65cpe]

As the old saying goes "what a difference a day makes" thank you Dave Smith for your paitence and thick skin!! The diffeerence is just amazing in Jim's design with a little time and tweaking I cant wait to see this done to the others. My hof design is the Olmos one and Xabiers 2nd that still has not changed but this simple exercise in tweaking these designs definitly has my attention rivited for further news. I hope this forum does not get too critical of any design for they all look good IMHO!! Thanks again for your patience with the feedback,I dont think anyone is tryint to be uncivil just giving their honest opinions in this process, Keep it up its looking great!!!

[D2W]

What a dramatic difference. I'll echo the others that I can't wait to see you do this to the other models. I still think Jim's design needs some major tweeks in design, especially the front end, but solvable. I think you should definately detail the other models before you do anything else, and then see where you are. I think between the four you will find a winner liked by the majority of people. I want you to pick my #1, but I would also build my #2. If you decide to go back and pick out others I doubt you will find one design that everyone loves. If you do decide to let the community vote on other designs as favorites I would suggest changing them to fit real world dimensions. A design that is impossibly short, with 30" tires may look good on paper, but doesn't do you any good.

P.S. Also remember that everyone has an opinion, and that's all it is, one opinion. While the critical ones may stand out more you still have a lot of support for all the models.

[16g-95gsx]

It's amazing how much a little extra detail brings to the design. Honestly, while I hate the choice of wheels on this car (I think you'd be better off running something similar to your off-the-shelf GTM wheels you sell), I think the design is coming to life more. I think from the windshield forward it needs quick a bit of work, but it certainly looks better. I still don't have that HoF feel, but this at least gives more hope to me.

I still say take xabier's design, shorten/lower the front end, add a hood vent, and get rid of the absurd hoop and you'll be closer to something. It's getting there though.

[Silvertop]

I still say take xabier's design, shorten/lower the front end, add a hood vent, and get rid of the absurd hoop and you'll be closer to something. It's getting there though.

Only problem with THAT is that some of us LIKE the absurd hoop....................

[NicksPapaw]

It is amazing what a little bit of detail does to the look of the model, (if 25 man hours can be considered a little bit ). I think that once this level of detail is applied to the other models, someone will have to grab the water bucket to douse the HOF! As I said last night, I believe you will get it right before it comes to market. Thanks for letting us peek behind your wall of madness.

[16g-95gsx]

Only problem with THAT is that some of us LIKE the absurd hoop....................

I understand the need for a full roll bar, but something about the way it was done in the model just doesn't look right at all and it certainly doesn't flow with the car.

[David]

Dave,

How about doing the same with the Red and Black car? Jim, you know I love you man... but them are my favorites after Daves webcast.

At least bring those three to SEMA!

David

[Oppenheimer]

I understand the need for a full roll bar, but something about the way it was done in the model just doesn't look right at all and it certainly doesn't flow with the car.

A decision was made between RISD & FFR to thicken the hoop to cover the rollbar, one of the few mods to the Xabier design that took it from paper to 3D.

I would prefer the thin hoop from the drawing to remain, and the flatblack rollbar to simply be left exposed. the bar would be under the hoop, so wouldn't be very visible. The hoop would remain thin vertically, but horizontally, viewed from above, it would/could be rather thick. Thus the only way you'd see the exposed rollbar would be to peek under the hoop, from behind (or from front, but more difficult to see from that angle). Plus it being flatblack it would be obscured by the shadow of the hoop.

[Someday I Suppose]

To David's point, the additional detail makes a huge difference in Jim's design, but would love to see what it does to the Red and Black. I have to say I really like both of those designs and in the original models am drawn to Xabiers design the most, with the added detail, hmmmm.

I like Jim's design a lot as well, as some others have noted from the front wheel back really like it a lot, something about that front wrap though that I am not in love with... Maybe Jim's car just needs to be painted black though....

[Silvertop]

I understand the need for a full roll bar, but something about the way it was done in the model just doesn't look right at all and it certainly doesn't flow with the car.

Actually, we don't really know yet what that hoop really looks like, due to the second-story-window angle at which the Xabier model (and the others as well) was photographed. We should all probably reserve judgment until we get some camera angles at ground level.

In any event, that hoop, or something like it, would need to be there for application of a Targa-style removable roof panel, which many of us are hoping for. End of Threadjack..............

[BipDBo]

If you do the detail treatment to the black car, you may want to start with painting it a different color. I'm sure it looks stunning in real life, but the color is so dark, that in photos, it's very difficult to really see the car's lines. It will be better with higher quality photos, but I'm wagering not much.

[skullandbones]

I, too, appreciate Dave's patience in this process. I am surprised to see how far he is willing to go out on a limb, so to speak. But I think he sees the opportunity to get consensus but consensus for a really great design not just compromise for the sake of compromise. No one wants a "fem catfish" or a "camel".

I believe this process may be painful in some ways but it points out something as it goes forward. The design mods (or way they are presented) get better and better as you go, so little things that people don't like tend to stand out more. So we have the gorgeous woman in the little black dress and now she is being accessorized! (no feminine insensitivity intended) WEK.

[apexanimal]

dave -

thanks for taking the time to have the model touched-up and shot well...

there's a HUGE difference and gives a much more realistic feel to the car... and i do like it better now... but i still want to REALLY like it but i just don't... i think the overall shape of it is good but the details just aren't there for me...


with that said, the overhead rear 3/4 shot towards the end is, imho, the best looking angle... old-school ferrari-ish

[SccrMan13]

I dont think the basic shape is that bad, but there are far to many scoops. Its far to busy. I personally would not build that and would save my money for a 33 hot rod instead. I think there is still a long way to go on this before i would consider this design.

[jimgood]

I'm sorry but I still do not like this design. I think it looks to close to the Subaru kit car that is already available; the Murtaya

Hmmm...first and only post and you're schilling for a "competitor". Nice.

And the two look nothing alike, apart from having 4 wheels and silver color.

[bbjones121]

Looks much better with these photos.

[onyx_riddle]

I like what he said about making it look like something awesome. It's really what needs to happen. Personally? I think your signature cars should share a bit of character. A smaller GTM that doesn't too closely resemble a Ferrari but still deserves the FFR badge, which is actually a pretty big honor, would be absolutely brilliant. That's what I think they could shoot for. It could still be original..

Either way this thing has me more excited than I can remember being in quite some time.

[Flamshackle]

1) You'll never satisfy everyone. No matter what you do there will be those that like something else better. And if you try to satisfy as many people as possible you've got a Camry or Taurus.

2) Don't give up on a concept as a result of criticism. Understanding and incorporating the criticism (when appropriate) can help to refine a concept. But see point 1.

3) "A camel is a horse designed by a committee." Or to put it another way: design is not a democratic process. Ultimately it's FFR job to use your vision to design and make the car you think is best. I'm pretty confident (understatement) that it will be an amazing car that many people will really want to buy. If you were to make ALL the changes everyone has suggested here, you'd end up with a pretty ugly toad. It might be Prince Charming in driving dynamics but it'd sure be ugly.

4) Finally (at least for now!) the first version you create won't satisfy everyone (point 1) and neither will the second, or the third but those that don't like the first may really like the second or third versions. The swatch watch approach gives you so many opportunities. Limited edition body styles? Really wild custom one-offs? An annual design contest with a new body going into limited production to replace older versions?

Michael

This ^

Also THANK YOU DAVE SMITH and FFR for creating these awesome "life" detailed images for us to assess
I have been on countless forums over the last 10 years and nothing comes even close to the attitudes and buy in from the manufacturer that you demonstrate.

These images are stunning and really begin to show what the models will look like. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

I can look forward to the rest of the cars being shown in life detail patiently now. seeing how great this one looks in these images and knowing that the others are coming is enough for me. awesome stuff!

PS Jims desing IMO is the number 3 or 4 at this point still favouring Xabiers and Rodneys as builds...

check out this 3D rendering below by Rodney that shows his car with adjusted rear width and front end. You will need to download a javascript thingy but it only takes a minute and looks AMAZING
http://www.unoverse.com/factoryfive/venom/

Keep up the incredible and ground breaking work Dave and the team! You guys are blowing my mind here!

[Stickshift84]

I have remained mostly silent even if I was one of the few that attended last Saturdays open house. I have been completely blown away by the entire process and I know that whatever the final first design will be, will be nothing short of spectacular. That being said I beilieve each design has its strong suits and I do have my favorite or atleast I thought I did. Seeing these pictures really helps to get a better perspective of this particular car. Here are my thoughts.

Rear End: This design is absolutely perfect when viewing the full size mock-up. I believe that some of the character is lost in the 1/4 scale model. I did notice in one of the earlier spy shots that the right rear had a slightly different design to it and was wondering if changes were in the works? Even if they are unnecessary.

Profile: I believe this is where the design is a little lost for me. I feel as though the car loses some of its cohesion in this area. I did a quick paint edit to showcase my thoughts on how to make the profile more dramatic and cohesive. In the picture attached I roughed out connecting the body lines at the top of the door leading into the scoop and I also lowered the bottom of the scoop to tie into the original lower line. I also adjusted the lines for the fender to light; by making the light narrower I feel as though the car will look a lot more aggressive. What are everyone elses thoughts on these ideas?

Front End: This is my least favorite aspect. I think it just needs to be simplified. Narrower lights, maybe carrying the lower body lines of the profile into the front bumper and not having such a curved rise at the back of the bumper. Also possiblty shrinking the grill openings maybe.

I hope that this sort of feedback is what is desired. I hope nobody takes this the wrong way.

Keep up the Great work Dave and everyone else at FFR, I look forward to continuing to watch the progress.

The only questions I have and I hope maybe someone on here can answer are:
1. How would the chassis roll structure be incorporated into a design like this for a street version?
2. What is the functional aspect of having the back of the front fender open ?

2.jpg

[kach22i]

I like the rear, and hate the front.

The front quarter panel being popped out like the GTM over the leading edge of the door does not bother me anymore. Might be the additional articulation balancing it.

[thebeerbaron]

2. What is the functional aspect of having the back of the front fender open ?
2.jpg

From my discussion with Jim at the reveal, it likely has to do with door alignment and the no-paint panels. This is my interpretation of Jim's description to me, so do not take it as gospel.

No paint-panels cannot be trimmed or else they start to need paint. In order to get something like the door to line up without trimming panels, you've got to have some un-aligned gap somewhere. Here it's at the front of the door, hidden behind the fender.

Another way to look at it is you line up the gap at the rear edge of the door and the gap at the bottom of the door. Your gap at the front of the door is therefore off (and would ordinarily be fixed via trimming), but it gets hidden behind the front fender.

Make sense?

[PhyrraM]

From my discussion with Jim at the reveal, it likely has to do with door alignment and the no-paint panels. This is my interpretation of Jim's description to me, so do not take it as gospel.

No paint-panels cannot be trimmed or else they start to need paint. In order to get something like the door to line up without trimming panels, you've got to have some un-aligned gap somewhere. Here it's at the front of the door, hidden behind the fender.

Another way to look at it is you line up the gap at the rear edge of the door and the gap at the bottom of the door. Your gap at the front of the door is therefore off (and would ordinarily be fixed via trimming), but it gets hidden behind the front fender.

Make sense?

That makes sense, but it leaves me wondering about quality control on the panels. Not neccisarily a knock on FFR, but what makes the tolerances of the process so much different than a stamped panel? Seems the molds should be accurate enough to hold a good panel tolerance.

[Steve91T]

That makes sense, but it leaves me wondering about quality control on the panels. Not neccisarily a knock on FFR, but what makes the tolerances of the process so much different than a stamped panel? Seems the molds should be accurate enough to hold a good panel tolerance.

I've heard doors are the hardest part to get right. What Beer said makes a lot of sense.

[onyx_riddle]

That makes sense, but it leaves me wondering about quality control on the panels. Not neccisarily a knock on FFR, but what makes the tolerances of the process so much different than a stamped panel? Seems the molds should be accurate enough to hold a good panel tolerance.

I certainly do not mean any form of insult here, but i feel I can somewhat answer this. Stamping a panel and shaping it is so very different than laying a fiber panel and trimming it. I'm going to assume this "no-paint" procedure leaves little to zero room for touching up imperfections or trimming, which is standard with all fiberglass work. Take my input with a grain of salt, as I have little experience hands-on in comparison to some of the veterans on here. But I know just enough about fiberglass and metal to know that if you want a fiberglass panel to leave the mold ready to be mounted, you had better make room for compromise. As for the gap in the front fender, I assumed it was intentional ala" Carerra GT
porsche-carrera-gt-back-view-thumbnail.jpg

[olpro]

Let’s keep it real here.
Not everyone is cut out to be a body designer. I am sure that Jim is a really nice person and a great chassis engineer but this design is really sad.

This model-4 is a hodgepodge of familiar and borrowed elements tossed together. There is no sense of integration or flow, no grace or beauty – it is just a mess. The struggle to get that crease line to work from the front fender peak through the door and line up with the scoop has resulted in some of the most tortured surfacing I have ever seen since the original Tiberon. The door is based on the GTM idea and doesn’t work any better here than it did there.
The rear is boring and lacking of any originality. The front is worse - a fishlike version of the Joker, with his carved in ‘smile’.
The modeling itself is a mess. Pouring paint over the clay, immortalizing the horrible highlights and proportional errors is not making the bad surfacing any better. The sill panel looks like it was modeled with chewing gum. The more detail (and realism) you add just reveals how crude this design is. Are we supposed to be impressed and thankful that you added a few hours to this model to apply details that should have been there before you even started to run the cell phone camera?

Maybe I am misreading this effort and it is a really clever method to make the other models look good?

[Rockraven]

Great job, Jim. You have a winner... except for that front end. Way to busy, too polarizing in a love it or hate it kind of way. I think the winning formula is to take the attractive simplicity of the front end of Vman7's design, and marry it to this car.

[bromikl]

Thanks, olpro. Always a ray of sunshine, you are. It really is possible to be honest and tactful at the same time. Maybe you could try it some time.

I want to second what Oppenheimer said, that it would be easier to take a HoF design and teach it to fit the frame, than to take this design and teach it to set fires.

Maybe if we knew what the production constraints were, we could find some solutions.

[SccrMan13]

This model-4 is a hodgepodge of familiar and borrowed elements tossed together. There is no sense of integration or flow, no grace or beauty – it is just a mess.

I agree. That being said i am not a big fan of the gtm's proportions either.

Vmans design might be a little too much like a porsche 918, but both vman and shawns designs have good clean classy lines instrad of no continuity and more vents than a nopi event.

[Best of the best]

I have been following this for a long time and holding back. Olpro just took the words out of my mouth. Well done. Jim's designs is like...trying put lipstick on a pig. No matter how much glamour you put on it, it gets uglier. I'm just amazed that Dave did not choose one of the top 3 winners for the full scaled model. If you want to explored, explored on those. If the full sized looks that good on Jim's design, just imagine how great it would look on the Nouphone OR Xaiber's model in full scaled. I don't think anyone would pay much attention to Jim's design if that is the case.

[bbjones121]

It really is possible to be honest and tactful at the same time

Haha...not with this one.
Most are born with it, one was not.

The more I look at the design, I tend to agree with Olpro about the tossed together look. I think the back end is terribly plain and the opening in the front is too big. The opening in the front should have a straight top or a curved down, not a puckered-lip look. I love the rear quarter panel with the side and top vents. There is obviously a huge difference from this and the first pictures that were shown, so I can't wait to see the others.

[Inthenameofweez]

Dave, THIS HELPS SO MUCH. I cannot wait to see the other 3 models with the same treatment.

I think the radiator opening needs to be just a bit wider. And the brake ducts can disappear for the street version and reappear for the track version. I'm not as worried about the fenders as I was, as the arches look MUCH better. I agree that the front overhang is still a bit excessive, but this can be fixed. The headlights would look better as a narrow almost "slit" that goes up the fender. Otherwise, I LOVE IT.
EDIT: I want headlights and high fender arches (low hood) like this: Raybrig HSV-010 GT WIDE.jpg


Now show me the black and red models with the same gusto.

Oh, and the blue one too. :-P

Thank you Dave.

[NicksPapaw]

Hey Dave, I am sending you a big bag of cash that I have apparently inherited from a king in Africa. (Just got the E-mail yesterday) That way, you can make hundreds of molds for us to look at and then I am sure we can pick 1 of our favorites out.

[NicksPapaw]

WOW, I just realized that last post was my 99th. So, here's to post 100 !!! As you can tell, it is mostly filled with worthless ramblings from my hollow head.

[AVIONX]

Dave, I meant no disrespect. Everyhting you did to Jim's design is EXACTLY what we have been asking for you to do. I knew there would be lots of hard work, man hours, and $ needed to do it. The fact that you did it for us means you totlally get it. What I don't get is why you chose to do exactly what we wanted, to the car we like the very least out of every option there is? I just think that all that effort would have been better spent on a model that was actually popular and most desired by your customers.


SUMMARY: You did everything we begged you to do to the model we begged you not to do it to

[AVIONX]

to do as you guys asked and show pictures with better detail. If the better photos/detail was helpful, it was my intention to do more. My simple goal and about 25 man hours went into this request, to put more details on and ask sensible questions about the process in a respectful way.

DAVE. Want to make sure you hear me. Everything you did to Jim's car is awesome. You totally tuaght us how much a car can be improved by what Lexus calls "noodling" Mission accomplished. Now, if you fell like it, since this is your company and let us not forget that, and as time and funds allow of course just do it to the models your customers love so we can get that nasty burning hair smell going

[Jeff Collins]

For what it is worth. I showed the new pics to one of the guys in the machine shop. He is not a car guy, he said "that car is awesome, where can I get one" Then when I told him about it and the price point and he is ready to buy. Again this guy proudly drives a mini van. I don't think he was the demographic you were after but he is a fan! Nice work with this project.

[AVIONX]

Final feedback on Jim's design and I feel it is important. The front fenders being open at their trailing edge and the horrible "fake" door curve trying to hide the real straight line at the top of the door glass are the only reasons I don't have a GTM sitting in my driveway right now. I built a Cobra becuase when I was done, there was no evidence that it was a kit car. It just looked like I built an awesome car all by myself. Everywhere I went, like Dave said, I would just sit and stare at it's timeless beauty. My eyes going all over the car and loving every inch, just like a ferarri or lambo. On the GTM, and I'm not BS'ing here. All I see when I look at it is that glaring flaw where the top of the door glass meets the roof. The drop dead gorgeous rest of the car just don;t matter if all I'm seeing is that collision of straight lines and curves trying to hide a design flaw. I care way more about the car not having any "kit car" ishness about it than I do about which one of the 100s of sweet looking HOF models that the design contest produced.

[onyx_riddle]

GTM Big.jpg

Final feedback on Jim's design and I feel it is important. The front fenders being open at their trailing edge and the horrible "fake" door curve trying to hide the real straight line at the top of the door glass are the only reasons I don't have a GTM sitting in my driveway right now. I built a Cobra becuase when I was done, there was no evidence that it was a kit car. It just looked like I built an awesome car all by myself. Everywhere I went, like Dave said, I would just sit and stare at it's timeless beauty. My eyes going all over the car and loving every inch, just like a ferarri or lambo. On the GTM, and I'm not BS'ing here. All I see when I look at it is that glaring flaw where the top of the door glass meets the roof. The drop dead gorgeous rest of the car just don;t matter if all I'm seeing is that collision of straight lines and curves trying to hide a design flaw. I care way more about the car not having any "kit car" ishness about it than I do about which one of the 100s of sweet looking HOF models that the design contest produced.

I couldn't disagree more. The car is a healthy mash up of beautiful design cues. I think its one of the better auto ideas of the last 20yrs... But I guess if we all liked it there would be less to talk about.

[Dave Smith]

Jim's eye twitch is fading a bit and he is walking around with this big "I told you so" grin on his face. Here are some answers to your questions.

The silver car was picked to do the details simply because it was the only scale model that had good paint (and we didnt have time to re-paint) and could be done quickly. I said I would do the others after SEMA. I may not need to do that based on the feedback difference between the presentation and the details of model 4.

I put the presentation together in 2 days to give you guys an update on the program before SEMA since many people cannot attend the show and we were planning on doing some of this at the show. The feedback here helped refine the SEMA presentation and re-consider our project development path for sure. I didn't imagine a Saturday morning (free) webcast could generate insults!. "Are we supposed to be impressed that you..."

The level of detail of the models is a simple factor of time. We could add interiors, real light fixtures, and much more. I took a model and added detail and took detailed photos to show better the shapes and cause you guys asked. For me, it helped see the degree to which details change my perception of a shape in 1/4 scale. The extrapolation to full size, I think, will be equally significant.

Thanks for the professional feedback to all. I take issue with some of the communications that were not respectful. "Keeping it real" is fine, but when insults are added, they cloud the "real" feedback. Olpro: As a Professional designer, I am sure you are aware that your great ideas will be lost if you communictae in a manner inconsistent with a professional. All of us are obligated to be polite and respectful while disagreeing, otherwise less mature and patient people will not hear your valued ideas past the interference of the insults. I carefully read what you wrote because my ego has nothing to do with the car and everything to do with it's success. I have no pride in the process, but am a zealot to ensure the finished car sets the friggin world on fire. I was here at FFR when Chris Theodore (designed/directed Ford GT program) marveled at the GTM and what we accomplished. Steve Saleen couldnt leave the GTM at SEMA, shaking his head and asking us how we did this!

I KNOW what this team can accomplish. This car will launch soon and the body shape will be a jaw-dropper. Thanks to all for helping us along the way this past year. I'll update you more as we return from SEMA after next week.