Alternate engines

[BipDBo]

I think that the Subaru boxer engine is an excellent application. It has a high power density and low center of gravity. It's also very smooth and durable.

I'm digressing, though, into one of my favorite pasttimes, daydreaming. I'm wondering what else may fit into the back of an 818. I know it will never fit an LS7, but I know that there are probably some options other than the boxer. I imagine that the high mpg version will use a transverse mounted inline 4 cylinder, so I'm thinking it may be able to use all kinds of transverse mounted engines. I'm thinking a lightweight motorcycle engne like the one on the new Kawasaki ZX-14R.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/11/k...stest-acceler/
They aren't saying what power it will have, but I'm guessing it will be well north of 200 hp. The engine and the gearbox combined would probably be a bit lighter then the boxer setup. The only catch is no reverse gear. That problem could be solved with a foot hole in the floorboards.

Anyone else have a crazy idea?

[adesilva]

From what we know so far the high mpg versions of the 818 are being designed for either a volkswagon tdi engine or a ford eco boost. the tdi is i believe 140hp but around 240 torque .. that much torque on a car thats 1800 pounds could still give us a very quick car. The golf TDI is 29XX pounds and 0-60 is 8.2 seconds ... I wonder how much quicker the 818 would be with the same setup... considering its basically half the weight. The only thing I am not sure of is how modifiable the tdis are but then again if your going that route your in it for the mpg anyway. I dont think it would be out of the realm of possibility that this could be a car that could go 0-60 in about 6-6.5 seconds considering a little more than 1000 pound difference.

[Evan78]

Regarding the Kawasaki motor, using the trans might result in durability issues. There's probably lots of data among the sandrail community, but the only project I've followed using a bike engine in a car is the MotoIQ Miatabusa. The Miata is heavier than the 818, and its a different engine/trans, but they're relatively close.

4G63 or 4B11 from Mitsubishi would be pretty great.

Chevy LS motors have been crammed into just about everything, is it a definite no-go already? I'm not familiar with the dimensional difference between an LS/G50 compared to the planned Subaru setup.

[StatGSR]

There are plenty of hot transverse engines out there (as far as I'm concerned) and it would be great to see a car that at least has the extra space to fit a bunch of them in even if it didn't come as a bolt in option. I'm sure Honda fans would love the 818 with a K-series (or even B/D/H series) and I'm sure there are Nissan fans that would love to shove a SR20DET in one.

I'm very curious about how well the chassis will be able to accept other engine choices that were essentially outside of the design scope.

I for one know I'm here because the likely hood of me ever getting my hands on a first gen elise that i could swap a honda motor into was slim to nil and I am a much bigger fan of a car with a body than an Atom replica. And on top of all that this will be by far the cheapest option out of all of them.

[adesilva]

Using a 4G63 would be awesome. It would make sense too considering the rivalry between the STI and EVO. I have had an evo and a wrx and both were great cars.

[thebeerbaron]

I just watched the Top Gear episode where VW built a one-off Golf with a twin-turbo W12 out of a Bentley stuffed in the back seat.

That'd be sweet...

[PhyrraM]

If the intent from early on was to use transverse motors, why would FFR choose the uniquely packaged Subaru as the base/donor vehicle? Civics, Eclipses, Camrys, Sentras, Focus, Cobalt, Fusion, Accord, Malibu, Sonata, (should I go on?), etc..... are more common than common sense and cheap(er) to boot.

I, personally, am drawn to the 818 BECAUSE it uses the Subaru drivetrain. Swapping in anything but a flat longitudinally mounted motor defeats many of the advantages of choosing a Subaru as the base donor.

I guess it's more of a theortical question for Dave, but I think that the 818 could cost even less than the ($10K kit + $5K donor = $15K completed) goal if it was based on a F/F transverse car to begin with.

I do feel that everyone should be able to modify and put any drivetrain into thier project that thier personal skill level (or wallet) allows, I simply question whether a Subaru was the best choice - IF multiple powerplants was a goal from the start.

Obviously, mine will be turbo Subaru powered.

[thebeerbaron]

One of the big selling points of the 818 is the single-donor concept. To put the engine in the back, the rear hubs need to be powered. So the single-donor would have had to have been mid-engined already (not too many of those), or AWD. Aside from the Lancer, what hot AWD cars are there out there other than Subaru?

In short - I think the boxer was a happy accident, not a selection point. Transverse twin-turbo W12s make just as much sense

[PhyrraM]

One of the big selling points of the 818 is the single-donor concept. To put the engine in the back, the rear hubs need to be powered. So the single-donor would have had to have been mid-engined already (not too many of those), or AWD. Aside from the Lancer, what hot AWD cars are there out there other than Subaru?

In short - I think the boxer was a happy accident, not a selection point. Transverse twin-turbo W12s make just as much sense

I thought about that aspect, but - (again a *guess*) - FFR could put any FWD hub/knuckle/OEM CV shaft combo from the donor in the rear of the car and use cheap, off-the-shelf Mustang II front spindles as part of the kit. I bet the cost would be close to a wash vs. the current cost of a hybrid front/rear Subaru CV shaft plus whatever the cost is of something to hold the front hubs together when the OEM CV shaft is removed and the strut-to-upper control arm adapter.

EDIT: Forget about the cost of adapting brakes if swapping front hubs/khuckles to the rear. Another point for Subaru or AWD car based.

My personal (again) *guess* is that Jim did the groundwork and selected the Subaru for various performance/layout/world-car reasons and then Dave walks past and says "Oh, by the way......Diesel......EcoBoost.......", then Jim groaned and started twitching. OK, maybe not EXACTLY like that, but it made me chuckle.

[3000gttom]

i wander if a 6g72 could fit... the engine from a 3000gt, they can put up enormous numbers with the right mods. they were transverse mounted and the lower end ones had fwd trannies that would be perfect for a mid endine layout

[Fast818]

Audi V6 and V8 TDI with manual trans or DSG trans from the front of the 4wd system.

DSC00327%20(Large).jpgDSC00344%20(Large).jpgv8_tdi_sch.jpgvw_dsg_cutaway_lg.jpgvw_dsg_diagram_lg.jpg

[Twinspool]

i wander if a 6g72 could fit... the engine from a 3000gt, they can put up enormous numbers with the right mods. they were transverse mounted and the lower end ones had fwd trannies that would be perfect for a mid endine layout

Only if you add provisions for oars and a rudder.

[3000gttom]

hahaha, its not that big... in fact the fwd trannies are quite small and from the spyshots it looks like theres gunna be a lot of engine bay room to work with, besides, doesnt an 800hp 818 sound like fun

[16g-95gsx]

You do realize how terrible of an idea the 6g72 would be right? A 4g63 would give you just as much power potential, and far far less weight. 4b11 would work but it's price is astronomical still and they are rare, which means parts cost is very high.

I don't see why the donor car's powerplant? A simple fwd setup with custom drive axles (still using subaru uprights) would solve the issue just fine? SR20, K20, 4g63, Ecotec, etc etc etc etc. There are basically a ton of fantastic engine platforms out there, and assuming FFR leaves room back there for a custom engine setup I don't see any harm. I certainly can see why they would design for the subaru engine and only that engine, but for those of us who like to modify things I don't see any harm.

[3000gttom]

a 4g63 is only about 100-150lb lighter than a 6g72, but the 6g72 has a much better torque curve for for driving on the street and having big power potential, its just an idea but you can easily get a dohc 3s for 1-2k these days and tt converting can get you to 300whp for pretty cheap, not to mention its built for a 3800lb car, so it would be much more reliable when put in a 1800-2000lb car,,,dsm's are almost never reliable

[Ks2]

the 6g72 is getting near 20 years old and the 4g63 isnt terribly reliable (aleast from my experience)

considering how easy 350-400hp is to hit with a ej257... there are plenty of wrecked ones around or blown motors begging to be rebuilt (or if you are loaded get a cosworth) it is easy to tune, simple turbo system and simple vacuum lines, parts are everywhere and can be swapped in many cases from many other models, and can be had for a good price (they also still make OEM replacements for just about everything) new aftermarket parts are coming out all the time and finally it all comes back to the world car issue, how many are still driving around in Europe? or japan? they don't keep used cars around as long as we do in the states

my .02 (man a cosworth built ej257 would be badass in this...)

[BipDBo]

If the intent from early on was to use transverse motors, why would FFR choose the uniquely packaged Subaru as the base/donor vehicle? Civics, Eclipses, Camrys, Sentras, Focus, Cobalt, Fusion, Accord, Malibu, Sonata, (should I go on?), etc..... are more common than common sense and cheap(er) to boot.

I, personally, am drawn to the 818 BECAUSE it uses the Subaru drivetrain. Swapping in anything but a flat longitudinally mounted motor defeats many of the advantages of choosing a Subaru as the base donor.

I guess it's more of a theortical question for Dave, but I think that the 818 could cost even less than the ($10K kit + $5K donor = $15K completed) goal if it was based on a F/F transverse car to begin with.

I do feel that everyone should be able to modify and put any drivetrain into thier project that thier personal skill level (or wallet) allows, I simply question whether a Subaru was the best choice - IF multiple powerplants was a goal from the start.

Obviously, mine will be turbo Subaru powered.

Subaru was chosen because there are very few possible cars that could be a single donor and of those, I'm sure that Subaru was he best combination of price, availability and performance. They could have gone with a FWD donor like a Focus, but it would require more parts to either be fabicated by FFR or taken from a 2nd donor. So you're right, this is mostly just a theoretical "what if?" thread meant only for amusement while we wait for Dave's next update. Who knows though, maybe someone will squeeze in a 230 lb, 470 hp supercharged Hartney V8.

The migh mpg version, I think will be the most interesting because it will encourage the most innovation. It will probably also be a 2 donor version with all o the supension and steering bits coming from a Subaru and the engine and transmission coming from almost anything. This will really open up the possibilities. With a cheap starter kit, high schools, universities, and back yard engineers will be probably building these things not just as standard diesels, but hybrids, EVs, etc. People will probably find ways to drive it off of electricity, restaurant grease, wood, starw, compost, fairy farts, whatever. I think this kit would make a great basis for a university efficiency competition. With a pre-built kit, a smaller team with less resources could compete because they focus most of their energy on the drivetrain. They could even have a division that allows changes to the body to incorporate the aspect of aerodynamics.

I'd personnally like to see a through the road hybrid, with a smaller, lightweight engine driving the rear wheels and an EV with regenerative braking on the front wheels.

[3000gttom]

the 6g72 is getting near 20 years old and the 4g63 isnt terribly reliable (aleast from my experience)

considering how easy 350-400hp is to hit with a ej257... there are plenty of wrecked ones around or blown motors begging to be rebuilt (or if you are loaded get a cosworth) it is easy to tune, simple turbo system and simple vacuum lines, parts are everywhere and can be swapped in many cases from many other models, and can be had for a good price (they also still make OEM replacements for just about everything) new aftermarket parts are coming out all the time and finally it all comes back to the world car issue, how many are still driving around in Europe? or japan? they don't keep used cars around as long as we do in the states

my .02 (man a cosworth built ej257 would be badass in this...)

i agree, ej motors are definately the best option for an 818, all the fabrication involved in putting a different powerplant would just not be worth it,

I still wonder if subaru have any flat six motors that would work, i just feel like turbo'd 4bangers have a strange powerband for street driving and since the 818 is so much lighter when the turbos kick in the effect will be even more amplified

[PhyrraM]

I still wonder if subaru have any flat six motors that would work, i just feel like turbo'd 4bangers have a strange powerband for street driving and since the 818 is so much lighter when the turbos kick in the effect will be even more amplified

Think in reverse. The lightweight of the 818 will make the off-boost part of the powerband feel, well....less off-boost. And when it does kick in....Gone!

There are H6s in Subarus line up that will likely fit with minor mods. The 95" wheelbase is more than adequate and the prototype chassis looks roomy enough. Likely worst case? Relocate a few frame members and the gas tank.

[StatGSR]

I still wonder if subaru have any flat six motors that would work, i just feel like turbo'd 4bangers have a strange powerband for street driving and since the 818 is so much lighter when the turbos kick in the effect will be even more amplified

I know I'm still hopeful the ez30 will be able to sqeeze in there.

[Twinspool]

i just feel like turbo'd 4bangers have a strange powerband for street driving and since the 818 is so much lighter when the turbos kick in the effect will be even more amplified

What are you basing these feelings on? A 1985 Dodge Omni?

[305mouse]

What's nice about this project is with how the oem TD04 turbo will compliment the weight of the 818. The 2.0, for those of us using a 02-05 WRX donor, will have better response and the lag won't be as noticable. This turbo would be at full spool by 3K if not earlier with some nice porting. Obviously, in the words of Jeremy Clarkson, we all want "more power". For those of us, we can make this what we want it to be. Be it a built motor, TDI, Ford eco, other powerplant or even hoping the ez30 could be shoehorned. There seem to be already a bunch of options being considered from people. I'm excited to see what people do to make their car unique for them. I however, will stick with the single donor. It'll still get great mileage due to the weight and go like crazy.

[adesilva]

The WRX is about 1200-1400 pounds more than the 818 and on average people seem to get 18-22 city and 25-29 highway (based off some forum results i looked up) so being over a ton less in weight I do not see why we wouldnt be able to get a few mpg better.

Being a turbo engine you can pretty much change your mileage depending on your mood. Being a small 2.0 motor if you arent really going into boost you should get pretty good mileage.

[305mouse]

You do realize a ton is 2,000 pounds. Sorry, I'm not trying to be a dick. I'll tell you with spirited driving and a small VF turbo with an EWG, I average 19mpg.

[3000gttom]

no personal experience but ive seen many forum posts of people with high hp 4 cyl turbo builds that get a lot of turbo lag, idk for sure but hopefully someone with experience will chime in, im a fan of more displacement that's all, and if i build a car from the ground up id prefer to have a 6 cyl over a 4cyl motor... just throwin out ideas

[fiaroadster]

Audi V6 and V8 TDI with manual trans or DSG trans from the front of the 4wd system.

DSC00327%20(Large).jpgDSC00344%20(Large).jpgv8_tdi_sch.jpgvw_dsg_cutaway_lg.jpgvw_dsg_diagram_lg.jpg

What kind of car is pictured here?

[Steve91T]

no personal experience but ive seen many forum posts of people with high hp 4 cyl turbo builds that get a lot of turbo lag, idk for sure but hopefully someone with experience will chime in, im a fan of more displacement that's all, and if i build a car from the ground up id prefer to have a 6 cyl over a 4cyl motor... just throwin out ideas

You have to look at the bigger picture. If someone is building a drag car, they don't care about lag, so they throw a huge turbo on it, some NOS, and a staging system to spool the turbo before they launch. Road racers, or street cars are going to use a smaller, less laggy turbo. Sure it'll make less top end power, but you can still make really good numbers (especially for an 1800 lb car), and have very little lag. Turbo technology has come a long way.

In the turbo diesel world, same thing. People build their trucks to make 1000 hp, for drag racing or sled pulling. They have tons of lag, but they don't care. Street driven trucks can still make really good numbers with a very quick spooling turbo (or turbo's).

These guys just floor it and wait for the turbo...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmkvsojD2sI

[Niburu]

if I had the money - peripheral ported 20B
in the end I'm just a diehard rotard

[16g-95gsx]

100-150lbs makes an enormous difference, you're dealing with almost a 10% weight increase for virtually no gain. You can get the same performance from a 4g63, the record books prove that. Not bashing the 6g72 just saying you need to think about weight as one of the biggest influences on this car, and unnecessarily adding significant weight would be foolish.

As for reliability, I don't know what EJ's you guys are dealing with, but I see these things die constantly. I can't tell you the amount of spun bearings that I've seen. I almost worry about the oiling within this car if it is able to pull sustained g's. The EJ was chosen because it comes from a single donor and is plentiful, period. I don't believe the engine from the standpoint of ultimate performance, is ideal. It may be 80% of what the best option would be, but it isn't the best option IMO. Easiest, but not best.

a 4g63 is only about 100-150lb lighter than a 6g72, but the 6g72 has a much better torque curve for for driving on the street and having big power potential, its just an idea but you can easily get a dohc 3s for 1-2k these days and tt converting can get you to 300whp for pretty cheap, not to mention its built for a 3800lb car, so it would be much more reliable when put in a 1800-2000lb car,,,dsm's are almost never reliable

[16g-95gsx]

300-400whp and this car will be a monster. Now imagine what turbo is necessary to achieve that? Almost stock-like turbos are pulling that number off on 2.0L's. Throw a 6cyl in there and you do nothing but add weight or what will likely be unusable bottom end torque. NA 6cyl, sure I can see that, but turbo 6 just seems like a waste.

no personal experience but ive seen many forum posts of people with high hp 4 cyl turbo builds that get a lot of turbo lag, idk for sure but hopefully someone with experience will chime in, im a fan of more displacement that's all, and if i build a car from the ground up id prefer to have a 6 cyl over a 4cyl motor... just throwin out ideas

[Oppenheimer]

The EJ was chosen because it comes from a single donor and is plentiful, period. I don't believe the engine from the standpoint of ultimate performance, is ideal. It may be 80% of what the best option would be, but it isn't the best option IMO. Easiest, but not best.

Just curious, you've mentioned similar several times here. Just wondering what engine you would think is ideal for a car like the 818?

[Oppenheimer]

The migh mpg version...will probably also be a 2 donor version with all o the supension and steering bits coming from a Subaru and the engine and transmission coming from almost anything.

Correct, Dave has confirmed this.

I think this kit would make a great basis for a university efficiency competition. With a pre-built kit, a smaller team with less resources could compete because they focus most of their energy on the drivetrain. They could even have a division that allows changes to the body to incorporate the aspect of aerodynamics.

Cool idea. Combine the Green Grand Prix (that an FFR GTM TDi recently won) with the Challenge Series concept. A Challenge series that is all about best mileage with performance. Its all the same chassis (FFR 818 mpg version), but you can pick your own drivetrain. It could be about balance of performance and economy.

[3000gttom]

the more i look into things, the more the ej's look like the best option

[BipDBo]

the more i look into things, the more the ej's look like the best option

They're definately the best option, at least giving the best bang for the buck. Subaru's engines will soon get even better with a partnership with Toyota that gets them the use of Toyota's direct injection system. They'll be just as powerful, but smaller in displacement and likely lighter and more efficient.

Here's what Motor Trend has to say about the future of Subaru's bower's:
http://www.motortrend.com/future/fut...o_its_own_way/
"Our source also revealed what is going on in the bowels of Subaru's R&D. On the short list for the WRX’s powerplant is a turbocharged 1.6-liter boxer pumping as much as 270 hp, and a twin-charger system involving a supercharger is being tested as well. The car’s body is rumored to be a little bigger than a Toyota Yaris, while its tread width is said to expand significantly. As for the STI, we are told that the flagship will also employ the WRX’s 1.6-liter boxer turbo, but that the engine will be reworked to generate upwards of 300 hp for motorsport competitiveness."

[Evan78]

no personal experience but ive seen many forum posts of people with high hp 4 cyl turbo builds that get a lot of turbo lag, idk for sure but hopefully someone with experience will chime in, im a fan of more displacement that's all, and if i build a car from the ground up id prefer to have a 6 cyl over a 4cyl motor... just throwin out ideas

Lag is a fact of life of owning a turbo. Unless you have very low power goals and want to run a very small turbo like some VW's that reach peak boost at something like 1500-2000rpms. If you want bigger numbers, you need a bigger turbo, which is going to spool later. BUT, you can still have a nice, wide power band, you just have to decide where you want it. Stock turbo Subarus usually are best in the 3500-6500 rpm range. My numbers are rough, but its in that ballpark.

I've owned 3 turbo Subarus; one 2.0L, and two 2.5L. I much prefer the 2.5's, but the 2.0 was still plenty fun and had a nice powerband. There's nothing "weird" about it to me.

[16g-95gsx]

Just curious, you've mentioned similar several times here. Just wondering what engine you would think is ideal for a car like the 818?

To be honest I'm not entirely sure. I believe the K20's have very advanced cylinder head flow, low torque but high rev capability which is likely to be more ideal on a platform like this, very low total weight (adding the trans into the picture you probably will see a 30-40lb drop in total compared to EJ20 and converted 5spd), but lets be honest they sound like crap and *can* be more expensive than a simple EJ20TT. I think for an aluminum engine the EJ is likely heavier than most, and the trans even when converted to 2wd seems like it will weigh in around 100lbs, which is again on the heavier side.

If I'm lucky I'll get to weigh an entire EJ257 longblock with accessories this evening from a friends car who blew it (again I havent been too fond of the oiling system in these EJ's). We'll see what I come up with. One good thing I like about the EJ25 is that it increases displacement through bore sizing, not stroke. I feel like torque, while fun, will be very hard to put to good use in a car like this. A moderately powered car will be incredibly fast, but too much torque will likely make it tail happy. The EJ20TT seems like the best bang for the buck in terms of turbo'd EJ's.

[3000gttom]

i like the idea of a higher revving engine. maybe factory five will rework the subaru engine a little like they did with the gtm gen2

[16g-95gsx]

Why not just rework it yourself? Doesn't take much at all when you have the engine out of the car. High revving doesnt work too well without larger turbos or higher overlap cams. Advanced cam controls such as what the K20 or 4b11 have make it feasible, otherwise you wind up running out of steam too soon. Don't the modern suby's have variable cam technology as well?

[Ks2]

i like the idea of a higher revving engine. maybe factory five will rework the subaru engine a little like they did with the gtm gen2

look for the 2.0l ej207 version 7 and 8 from japanese STI's circa 02-03ish, they rev to 8500 thereabouts i have one in my wrx and it is a blast to 8k, uses the same wiring harness (give or take a few re-pins) that the ej205 of the same year, needs a tune for crappy US fuels

[Steve91T]

What about ditching the turbo for a blower? I know it would have less peak hp, but it would have tons of low end tq and a huge area under the curve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq_s0...feature=relmfu