gen1 hot rod power window install - #442

[sread]

Hey guys - I finally got around to doing a job I have been dreading for quite a while now...installing the power windows in a gen 1 hot rod. It is just too hot and humid here to enjoy the car in the summertime without a/c so I finally decided to tackle it. I don't think there are many gen 1 cars left to do this on so I don't know if it will be much help but I will put it out there any way.
After reading numerous threads detailing the struggles to come up with a proper working solution that looks clean I spent some time studying the parts and the manual along with what others have tried and came up with my own plan.
Before you start, I would highly recommend getting hold of a spare 12 v battery to set next to the door while you work so you can run the track up and down as needed to check fit and function throughout the process. The pigtails on the motor are a couple feet long and it is a simple matter to just touch the wires to the terminals as needed. Also have your long reach magnet and mechanical fingers handy as you will drop bolts and nuts into the bottom of the door many times while installing and removing the various pieces. A boat load of patience and ample supply of alcohol will also come in handy.
The main problem with the install kit as received is the beltline weatherstrip pieces that FFR provides and the method needed to install them. It was pretty obvious from the start that there has to be a better way. My idea was that with a proper fitting set of beltline strips to guide the window and keep it in position that you are 90 percent of the way there. I don't see any need for any of the other guides, channels, tracks, etc. that people have tried largely because they only guide the glass when it is retracted. They also add friction and get in the way of everything else in side the door. Once the glass is installed in the glass holder, it is secure along the entire bottom edge. With the proper beltline strips at the top of the door, the glass is secure along the entire top edge. When the glass is extended , it is still secured in the glass holder and if the beltline strips fit snug and are located in the proper place the glass is still relatively secure , at least to the extent that it can be when fully extended out of the door without a top door frame.
OK, enough with the theory. I went to the Steele Rubber products website after studying all the various products (they have many!) and picked out 2 different part numbers. 70-3807-61 for the outer strip and 30-0300-135 for the inner. pictured here - the one with the rubber wiper is for the out side and the one with the felt is for the inside of the glass.
I also picked up a couple of aluminum angles from Lowes : 3/4 in. x 1/16 x 36 in. These are what I used to mount the beltline strips to. I chose to bond the beltline strips to the aluminum angle using 3m urethane adhesive - the same stuff used to glue in the windshield, although you can use screws or rivets as long as the head is recessed enough that the glass won't rub on it. This is all direct from the Steele Rubber products web site.

Now , the whole key to making this work right is to make the proper sized cut out in the top of the door in precisely the right location. After taking measurements and making guesstimations for compression I came up with the following dimensions to make the cut out (see illus.) As it turned out these dimensions worked great. Once the strips are bonded to the alum angle and placed down in to the cut out it provides a nice snug fit to hold the glass without creating too much drag for the window motor to overcome.
To determine the location for the cut out, the hardtop has to be mounted in the final position and the weatherstrip installed that the glass will rest against just like it shows in the manual. Draw a line from from front to back right next to the weatherstrip. This is where you need the glass positioned as it extends from the top of the door. Now measure .370 inboard and draw another line. This will be the inboard edge of your cutout. Now draw another line .490 outboard from the first line you drew - (.190 glass thickness + .300 = .490) . This will be the outboard edge of your cut out for a total width of .860. A couple of side notes here - Even though I used the FFR provided weatherstrip for the hardtop to window seal when I made the initial measurements I ended up using some of the left over self adhesive half moon seal instead. The original weatherstrip was just too bulky and was causing the outboard edge of the cutout to be too close to the outside of the door. There wasn't going to be any room left for the aluminum angle at the back of the door where it curves back in towards the body. As it turns out, the half moon seal works even better because it isn't as thick and is very soft and easy to compress giving a little more leeway for the glass to rest against. Again, the hardtop needs to be in the final position both side to side and front to back when you start all this.
What you are shooting for is once the cut out is made you should be able to look down from the top and see the glass holder lined up and parallel with the cut out - either centered in the cut out or positioned a little towards the outboard edge of the door. You have to keep in mind that as the glass extends from the door it will need to tilt inboard a few degrees to lay against the hardtop window seal. You adjust the tilt of the glass mainly by tilting the top of the power track inboard or out. Tilting it out will make the glass tilt in as it comes up. Don't be surprised if it is necessary to shim the glass holder to get it parallel with the cutout. I had to on both doors - easy to do with a washer or two. I even had to bend the window motor bracket on the drivers side to be able to tilt the track out far enough because as most anybody with a gen 1 knows the drivers side door frame has a twist it in it from FFR.
One other tip I can offer is to not use the rubber strip to secure the glass in the holder. I followed the advise of the actual manufacturer of the window kit, Balls Hot Rod Parts, and used the 3m urethane adhesive again. I just squirted a little in the forward, middle ,and aft end of the window holder and set the glass down in place. The reason for this is the glass fits very loose in to the holder. This will allow you to tilt the glass inboard or out as needed to lay against the hardtop seal. With the rubber strip that FFR provides that glass is fixed rigidly in to the holder and may not allow the tilt needed to seal. Once the urethane cures it is held securely.
Another small improvement I made is to the upper and lower stops. Rather than just installing a bolt and nut in the track for the nylon guide to slam into, I used a 2 inch long screw and nut, but placed a piece of rubber hose on both ends to provide a little cushion. Not a big deal but may help the longevity a little and sounds a little more refined when you roll the windows up or down.
I realize I am not the first one to do it like this , but I never really saw anybody post in detail how they went about it. I tried to post the attached photos in the body of the text so it would make more sense but had no luck at all. They all just appear in a group at the bottom, and you are limited to 5 anyways so this is the best I could do.

Anyways, maybe some of this will help some of the guys still struggling with this part of the build. I know more than one has given up in disgust. The fit/function ended up far better than I anticipated. It probably won't help much for the gen 2 builders as FFR has gone to a different system now that appears to work better from the start.

[svassh]

Thanks, I've bookmarked this for when I need to tackle this.

[Ltfracing]

Thank you

[progmgr1]

My thanks also. This task is about #3 on the major item list after I finish most of the wiring.

Keith HR #894

[JimLev]

Have you managed to get the top of the glass to make contact with the weatherstrip that goes around the window opening in the roof?

[sread]

Have you managed to get the top of the glass to make contact with the weatherstrip that goes around the window opening in the roof?

Absolutely - makes great contact all the way around - almost too tight. I remember reading your thread about the problems you were having there.
When the door is open, and the glass is raised up, it needs to tilt inboard probably 3 to 5 degrees (just eyeballing it). Have you tried removing the glass from the glass holder and assembling it without the rubber strip? Just doing that will allow the glass to flop back and forth an inch or two. If that will give you what you need , then just use some urethane adhesive applied to the groove of the glass holder to secure it in the position needed. Try that before going any further and report back.

[JimLev]

Thanks for the info. The drivers door is now off for painting. I have the window out.
At the moment I have the roof off so when it goes back on I'll do what you have said.

[HVACMAN]

Thank you for this information. I too am a Gen1 owner that has been putting off the window install. I am waiting for a new power steering kit from FFR to get my ASE inspection for registration. I also have a new set of doors to install. With the shop temperatures in the mid 80's this week it would be ideal conditions to work but I'm doing the Covid thing. It makes you sick enough so that you don't feel like doing anything. Keep up the good work.

[progmgr1]

I just remembered an issue that has been bugging me for a while, but it kept slipping down the priority list:

What size fuse do I need on the power window circuit? I'm using an American Autowire kit which doesn't have a dedicated line for that function.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but everyone here seems to be familiar with the power windows.

TIA, Keith HR #894

[JimLev]

I’m using a 25 amp fuse for each FFR power window motors.
IIRC with the door open and minimal resistance on the glass (not rubbing on the weatherstrip) the motor draws a little over 10 amps.
However when the window hits it’s stop position the current jumps up to 20 amps until you take your finger off the switch.

[progmgr1]

Thanks Jim. Exactly what I wanted to know.

Keith HR #894

[sread]

I am using the AAW wire harness also. I ended up using the wiper circuit with a 15 amp fuse in it and control the motors with 2 double pole double throw toggle switches from Del City that come with small jumpers permanently attached so that they reverse polarity with the switch direction. Makes for an easy hook up with just 4 wires to each switch - 1 pos, 1 neg, and the 2 wires to the motor. My kit is a 2012 vintage and the window motors from Balls Hot rod parts are marked 12v 3a. I assumed it means 3 amp motors which seems low but so far works fine thru the 15 amp circuit and fuse. I am sure if you hold the switch on against the stop though that you could pop a fuse.

[progmgr1]

Thanks for the additional data. I got the window motors from a non-Forum-supporting vendor and there are no markings on the motor about current draw. Can I just measure the winding resistance and calculate the current?

Keith HR #894

[sread]

electrical is not my strong point - I would think that you need to connect an ammeter (available on many VOM's) inline and run the motor up and down and read the actual current draw. It sounds like that is what Jim Lev did. Hopefully he will be along shortly and give a more detailed answer.

[JimLev]

I just replied and it all disappeared. Ugh, I’ll do it again after dinner.

Keith, you can’t figure motor current by ohms law as it is an inductive load. If it was pure resistance you could.
My motor reads 0.5 ohms. Mine is a Ball and came from FFR.
I’m using an AC/DC amp clamp (2, 20, and 200 amp range) around one wire to get my readings.
Almost all DVM’s will only read 10 amps max.
My motor startup current is 12-13 amps with the window going up, after it starts moving up it drops down to 9-10 amps.
I don’t have the roof on so the only load is the felt and rubber where the window goes thru the top of the door.
3-4 amps with the window going down. One of these days after the car is done I want to put limit switches so the window will stop on it’s own and not draw 20+ amps when it hits it’s physical stop.

sread, with the 2 bolts loose that hold the window on I can move the top in well over an inch. I’m going to make a few slotted wedges to go between the window bracket and the plate it bolts too. I should be able to get it to hit the weatherstrip on the roof.

[progmgr1]

Thanks Jim. Sounds reasonable. I have several VOM's, but none have that wide a range of current . I'll have to see if I can borrow a Fluke or something.

Keith HR #894

[sread]

something to keep in mind - the window circuit is in use maybe 2 -3 seconds max, (at least on the kit that FFR provides) They move pretty fast - probably twice as fast as the typical oem power window. Unless you are trying to operate both at one time, or just holding the switch on against the stop, there is minimal chance of overloading the circuit.

[JimLev]

Keith, you could always do the redneck test, put a 7 amp fuse in and see if it blows when the window hits the stop, then a 10 amp, then a 15 amp.
When you find one that doesn’t blow use one with the next higher rating.
Most DVM’s I’ve seen only go up to a 10 amps.