Steering Linkage Failure

[dan's33]

I've been driving the hot rod for a few months now and decided to give the car a once over to see if anything was loose. I noticed the front steering linkage was loose where it connects to the sterring box splined rod at the front of the car. This particular connection uses a set screw to the flat area of the splined rod with a lock nut on top, all with red locktite. Luckily this particular joint can't come completely off because the oposite end has the through bolt type connection which, while lose, cant slide any further down.
I took the joint apart, cleaned out all the red locktite and redid the connection nice and tight, again after driving it a bit it came lose again but the bolts aren't moving, it just seems the fitment of the set screw to the flat part of the shaft isnt seating correctly. I hate that I'm banking my life on a stupid set screw and of coarse it makes me wonder about the other set screw connections along the steering shaft. I'm sure someone else has had this experience and wonder what your solution was? Has anyone drilled this out, tapped it and put a through bolt here? Again, I appreciat the help!
stearing.jpg

[Pat Landymore]

When I purchased a Foxbody Mustang manual steering conversion kit for a turbo LSx swap project…the instructions strictly warned me to (once all the different u-joints and steering shafts were in place)…to drill receiver holes for the set screws through the set screw holes in the various steering joints.

I drove that car in real Canadian winter (snow and -20 C)…and of course in summer… no problemo.

So when I built my turbo BBC ‘35 FFR truck…of course followed the same plan. Put some miles on it over two years, and trust me, with that kind of HP under my right foot…I checked those set screws several times. And they never loosened.

Makes me wonder why the kit instructions don’t mention this tidbit.
??

I think if you do that, plus of course Red Loctite, you’ll be golden.

[RoadRacer]

I've been driving the hot rod for a few months now and decided to give the car a once over to see if anything was loose. I noticed the front steering linkage was loose where it connects to the sterring box splined rod at the front of the car. This particular connection uses a set screw to the flat area of the splined rod with a lock nut on top, all with red locktite. Luckily this particular joint can't come completely off because the oposite end has the through bolt type connection which, while lose, cant slide any further down.
I took the joint apart, cleaned out all the red locktite and redid the connection nice and tight, again after driving it a bit it came lose again but the bolts aren't moving, it just seems the fitment of the set screw to the flat part of the shaft isnt seating correctly. I hate that I'm banking my life on a stupid set screw and of coarse it makes me wonder about the other set screw connections along the steering shaft. I'm sure someone else has had this experience and wonder what your solution was? Has anyone drilled this out, tapped it and put a through bolt here? Again, I appreciat the help!
stearing.jpg

Yep. This joint has been a pain. I have removed the steering rack to drill on drill press, so the screw sits better, plus I added a support just before this joint - see here (but note that later I had to make a more sturdy bracket here)

Of course, as you say, this is not "trusting your life to this" but it does add to the general sloppiness of a 4-5 joint system

[Brave Salmon]

A tip I used successfully on large pulleys on dynamometers was to usewhats called a VIX bit or centering bit. They're often used to center screws in door hinges. Come in various sizes and you just drill through the allen screw hole into the shaft creating a little dimple. Then insert the set screw with red loctite and once tight, follow up with a second set screw right on top of the first one again with red loctite. The friction of the second screw helps lock in the first one and the dimple prevents the shaft from rotating. try it.

[dan's33]

RoadRacer, I like your solution, unfortunately I have the electric power steering so I dont have room for the support. However, since I do have the power steering, maybe I dont need the support since I dont have that long arm connecting to the steering box?
Salmon, thanks for the tip on the drill bit.
Landymore, I was a little confused by your post, the instructions warned you against drilling into the arm? I'm assuming you did drill a recess for the set screw?
Here is a picture of the whole assembly.steering2.jpg

[dan's33]

I was able to get the linkage apart, luckily there is enough slop so you can take it off without having to loosen power steering motor or steering box.
the red dot is where the set screw sits on the shaft set screw.jpgsteering shaft.jpgand I can see it isnt perfectly flat.
Intersting that the bottom of the set screw is a little buggered up, maybe once it got loose it was hitting the teeth of the steering box shaft?

[Kamp]

I would think about changing the u-joint to a "pinch bolt type" u-joint. This will also solve any looseness issues there. I did this to mine and quite happy. Can't remember the size/spine count, Mustang to double D, think I got it from Summit.

[dan's33]

Thanks Kamp, this might be my best solution. I tried to drill a dimple into shaft with a brand new cobalt bit and it didnt even make a mark, tough steel. Without taking the steering rack out of the car i think this will be tough to do.
I measured the shaft and fond the part, unisteer #8050230 9/16" diameter-26 tooth x 3/4" DD it has the pinch type bolts on each end $91
Ill let you know how it fits when it comes in.
They also listed the torque of the pinch bolts at 45 ftlbs, i dont think i torqued those originally so i will double check those, hopefully take some play out of overall system. I have about 1/2" play at steering wheel which doesnt seem like a lot but i find myself over correcting driving straight which turns into a slight wobble while im driving. I have to make myself relax and let the car drive and its fine. The car is very sensitive to input.

[cob427sc]

I had the joint completely fall off the rack spline, luckily as I backed out of my garage. Would not have been good at 60mph. I had loctite on the threads and all. After reinstalling I got over cautious and put a tack weld from the joint to the shaft, figuring if I ever have to remove the joint a little grinding will break the weld.

[Brastic]

I was just going to post the same issue. Apparently, this is a well known issue. I have tried the 15 ft lbs, locite, and both failed in 200 miles. I looked into the Unisteer 8050230, but it will not work for me. I used that part from the power steering and using the same part again, caused the shaft to bind. I am looking for 8050230, but the double "D" being 90 degrees off.

[dan's33]

I recieved the new joint and installed it. The only thing I had to do was cut a new "D" section since i needed it about 7/16" longer. I also made the dimples in the bar for the pinch bolts a little smaller than before to eliminate some slop. I also torqued the pinch bolts to 45 ft/lbs as spcified. The entire section from the power steering to the steering box is now nice and tight. I took it out for a test drive and did a bunch of random figure 8's and drives great, in fact i think i lost a little bit of play i had before, definitely tighter steering now and the piece of mind it cant come apart! Now I'm questioning the upper U joints....lol. The 805023 is the correct part for this condition. A set screw joint on a pinch bolt splined rod is simply incompadable and never had hope of success805023.jpg.

[Brastic]

I recieved the new joint and installed it. The only thing I had to do was cut a new "D" section since i needed it about 7/16" longer. I also made the dimples in the bar for the pinch bolts a little smaller than before to eliminate some slop. I also torqued the pinch bolts to 45 ft/lbs as spcified. The entire section from the power steering to the steering box is now nice and tight. I took it out for a test drive and did a bunch of random figure 8's and drives great, in fact i think i lost a little bit of play i had before, definitely tighter steering now and the piece of mind it cant come apart! Now I'm questioning the upper U joints....lol. The 805023 is the correct part for this condition. A set screw joint on a pinch bolt splined rod is simply incompadable and never had hope of success805023.jpg.

I see that you are using two 8050230 U-Joints where the pins are aligned. I thought that you were not supposed to do this because they would bind.

[dan's33]

Hmmm, I had not read that. So far I've driven the car quite a bit and not issues but I will have to research that. Thanks for the heads up.
After I torqued those joints to 45 ftlbs this section is quite tight with very little slop. I don't know if there is supposed to be some movement or not but so far the car rides much better and took some play out of the steering wheel.
I have tested it in a parking lot lock to lock on the steering wheel and feel no binding, its very smooth.

[wrp]

I have been wrestling with the same issues, and posted a longer description of what I am doing about it in my build thread. Essentially, it appears the chassis flexes and exerts a backward force on the steering DD shafts over time. Additionally, the old gen I 26 spline by 9/16 DD Shaft steering joint was not exactly a close fit on my car. When you have it mounted tight against the bottom of the 26 spline receptacle it is tight. Over time it loosens down and when it is so loose there is detectable play then the set screw has slipped down into the indentation a near the end of the rack input shaft. While trying to figure out why this has happened at least three times in the last 100,000 miles, I reread the instructions from the gen I manual. once you are tightly mounted on the input shaft there are two set screws on the front of the flange bearing carrying the back half of the lower DD Shaft. Mine were apparently loose. Whatever is causing the backward pressure had pushed the steering joint behind the flange bear backwards about 1/2 inch, almost exactly the distance the 26 spring unit was pushed backwards on the rack input shaft. I am going to try two things. First, I bought a borgeoson 26 spline by 9/16 steering joint. it fits really snug though it is shorter than the FFR Gen I kit supplied joint. I am also going to put a Burgeon slip joint in the middle shaft so that it can take whatever pressure is on the shafts without forcing the set screws.

IMG_1535.jpgIMG_1506.JPGIMG_1528.JPGIMG_1532.jpeg

[wrp]

I have been wrestling with the same issues, and posted a longer description of what I am doing about it in my build thread. Essentially, it appears the chassis flexes and exerts a backward force on the steering DD shafts over time. Additionally, the old gen I 26 spline by 9/16 DD Shaft steering joint was not exactly a close fit on my car. When you have it mounted tight against the bottom of the 26 spline receptacle it is tight. Over time it loosens down and when it is so loose there is detectable play then the set screw has slipped down into the indentation a near the end of the rack input shaft. While trying to figure out why this has happened at least three times in the last 100,000 miles, I reread the instructions from the gen I manual. once you are tightly mounted on the input shaft there are two set screws on the front of the flange bearing carrying the back half of the lower DD Shaft. Mine were apparently loose. Whatever is causing the backward pressure had pushed the steering joint behind the flange bear backwards about 1/2 inch, almost exactly the distance the 26 spring unit was pushed backwards on the rack input shaft. I am going to try two things. First, I bought a borgeoson 26 spline by 9/16 steering joint. it fits really snug though it is shorter than the FFR Gen I kit supplied joint. I am also going to put a Burgeon slip joint in the middle shaft so that it can take whatever pressure is on the shafts without forcing the set screws.

IMG_1535.jpgIMG_1506.JPGIMG_1528.JPGIMG_1532.jpeg

Do not go to the light. The burgeson **** does not work. I reinstalled my Gen I parts.

[Lickity-Split]

On our race car, we use splined shafts and Ujoints. But instead of using set screws, we drill a 1/4" hole all the way through the Ujoint and shaft. Then we run a 1/4" grade 8 bolt all the way through with lock nuts. It's not going anywhere.

[wrp]

On our race car, we use splined shafts and Ujoints. But instead of using set screws, we drill a 1/4" hole all the way through the Ujoint and shaft. Then we run a 1/4" grade 8 bolt all the way through with lock nuts. It's not going anywhere.

Actually, the Burgeson telescopic shaft requires a hardened bolt though the 1” DD end. My issue was when you added the larger diameter shaft to the assembly, that extra 1/4 inch threw the firewall steering joint into an angle greater than 35 degrees which instantly cause a bind in the joint. I am looking to do exactly what you are describing on the rack input shaft. Problem is I just move everything to the next steering joint up the line. What is the diameter of the splined shafts you use?

[Tampa33Build]

Dan's 33 thanks for the PN information. About 300 miles ago I noticed my steering having more excessive play when driving. Checked the linkage and found the similar issue, I do not think it could have came completely off due to the length of the DD shaft piece. Ordered and received the 8050230 part yesterday and installed. This is the similar or the same joint from the motor to the DD shaft on the opposite end. As stated above I had to cut a longer DD shaft and cut new indents. I took it for a ride and did not have any binding issue, I also think there is less play than the previous connection.

[dan's33]

ive been driving the car now for 3 months and took a 1 1/2 hour trip to sebring, steering is still tight with no binding issues. That part is what you need to solve the problem. Pinch bolt joint for a splined shaft with an indent.

[Brastic]

ive been driving the car now for 3 months and took a 1 1/2 hour trip to sebring, steering is still tight with no binding issues. That part is what you need to solve the problem. Pinch bolt joint for a splined shaft with an indent.

Thank you for this. I have ordered the part and will install it soon.

[peterh226]

I'm having problems with the front joints a well.
- Gen 2 with rack mounted in the LOWER holes like all of the front suspension mounts.
- I've double checked all of the joint alignment
- Includes 90 degree out of phase bar from FFR before the Power Steering
- Binding with original joint as well as the UniSteer U-Joint 8050230.
- Before I move the rack back up to the upper mount location, has anyone tried and have a smooth action with the lower ones?
- I looks like using the lower mount causes the joints to be operating beyond the design limit.

[Mastertech5]

I have mine all in the lower holes with no issues. Make sure your shafts aren't too long and hitting part of the joint. They shouldn't extend further than the opening in the joint. You can round off the ends of the shafts to side in clearance. Make sure the rack splined shaft isn't inserted too far into the joint.

[peterh226]

I have mine all in the lower holes with no issues. Make sure your shafts aren't too long and hitting part of the joint. They shouldn't extend further than the opening in the joint. You can round off the ends of the shafts to side in clearance. Make sure the rack splined shaft isn't inserted too far into the joint.

So frustrating. It is the ujoint itself that was binding. All of the end of the shafts are good, just the geometry of the joint. I think that it’s a tolerance issue. Do you have power steering?

[Mastertech5]

So frustrating. It is the ujoint itself that was binding. All of the end of the shafts are good, just the geometry of the joint. I think that it’s a tolerance issue. Do you have power steering?

Yes. If you have a Dremel type tool you could radius down the areas that are hitting.

[peterh226]

here you can see the mark from the ujoint. I’m going to check the shafts for runout next. I’m still chasing some king of binding as steering is loosening up after about 10 miles.

IMG_1683.jpeg

[Mastertech5]

That's odd. The joints are made to be able to handle about a 35 degree angle. Did you cut those reliefs out or is that from turning. Check all of them, maybe cut them a little wider. They could have had the pinion shaft come out of the rack at less of an angle. Don't know if it was designed for FFR or is an off the shelf piece.

[peterh226]

I’m thinking that the joints are trying to operate right at the limit. Even a small bind will eventually cause it to loosen. I’m going to try shimming the rack to rotate a few degrees and see if that helps. That ujoint has small marks indicating it was trying to operate beyond the design on all edges. I’ll update later.

[JimLev]

That’s a novel idea, the shaft would be pointing up more and better in line with the other shaft.
You’ll need to get an alignment after you tilt the rack up.

[Mastertech5]

All you should have to do is check the toe-in for steering wheel center. The rack will just pivot on the inner the rods. The amount you're rotating the rack is insignificant and there's not a lot of slack in the bolt holes. You're going to shorten the distance to the motor so you may have to shorten the little shaft.

[Ltfracing]

Has anyone looked at the Ridetech build,they fixed the steering problem

[RoadRacer]

Has anyone looked at the Ridetech build,they fixed the steering problem

Yeah they took a rather radical approach and cut a lot of stuff off and moved the steering rack IIRC. Also was a $300k+ build

[Ltfracing]

No the original fix I’m talking about,they angled the rack up on its original mounts to put the joints at a much better angle.I will see if I can find the picture,they also used all the FFR pickup points on the front suspension

[Just 1 More]

Has anyone looked at the Ridetech build,they fixed the steering problem

I actually talked to someone (not going to mention his name) who was intimately familiar with the Ridetech 33 build and here's what he had to say.

The problem with the steering is they use an oem rear steer rack from a mid 80s dodge omni. When I turned the wheel on my car (before I fixed it) the rack would flex by 3/8” in the middle. It's not nearly heavy enough. I completely re-engineered a front steer Woodward racing rack into mine. Had to move the grille and radiator forward by 5”. That was 12 years ago…might be something easier by now. Their suspension geometry is not terrible and even the steering geometry wasn’t bad, just too light of components. Keep in mind…rack placement is critical to proper steering…like down to thousandths of an inch. Research and education is your friend.
You might contact Woodward, Sweet, or Apple to see about a custom built rack.

[JimLev]

Hard to believe the rack would flex in the middle at all.

[Ltfracing]

1F8DC1F9-F32D-4A61-AF29-1C14F9365C74.jpg I build these for a living.there are tons of very affordable racks on the market that will fit these cars,steering geometry is very easy to do with a couple turn plates,I will post pictures in my build post as I go.thank you

[Just 1 More]

1F8DC1F9-F32D-4A61-AF29-1C14F9365C74.jpg I build these for a living.there are tons of very affordable racks on the market that will fit these cars,steering geometry is very easy to do with a couple turn plates,I will post pictures in my build post as I go.thank you

Looking forward to all the information you can provide on the topic

[peterh226]

As quite a few people have noted, binding is an issue of varying troubles for quite a few people. While a lot of discussion has been talking about strengthening the connections, I started looking more at what was causing the problem.
The ujoints in steering are designed to operate at a maximum of 35 degrees. I believe that the ujoint at the rack was operating well beyond this limit. I had some marks on all sides where there was a small interference as the joint rotated. This would be perceived as a bind. However, the location of both joints with respect to the groove in the splined shaft will be enough to make it work 'ok' and have a significant bind.
The ujoint coming out of the power steering operates at a very small angle. Is the ujoint from the short DD Shaft to the rack that has the large angle. What I did was put a thick washer (~1/8) at the lower hole of the rack. This pivoted the rack a few degrees (~2+). I then used grade 8 5/16-18 bolts to hold that end of the rack in place. This appears to be enough to get into the operating range of the ujoints. I drove for 20 miles or so and had no loosening - before any Loctite!!! Since I did not change the other end (just a little rotation in the existing mount), there are no clearance issues. I'm still using the upper holes at this point as using the lower ones just aggravates the issue I believe.

I think the best solution would be to mill the mounting surface at about a 10 degree angle and then clearance the holes a bit. That would significantly reduce the angle and be even safer. Maybe I'll look into that this next winter.

[Mastertech5]

I'm glad you came up with a solution. This will aid others with this problem.

[JimLev]

Good info Peter. I’m thinking about milling some wedges to put between the rack and it’s mounting points. I wouldn’t need to remove the rack, just slip in the wedges.

[RoadRacer]

Cool, I’ll look at that too. Even without p/s anything we can do to make the joints straighter is a good thing