the coyote continues to bite... resolved! :)

[John Ibele]

Bummer, Todd. I was also hoping to see something that would suggest low fuel pressure being the source of the problem. Such a cause could have also been consistent with the temperature dependence (runs for a short bit on cold start). Vapor pressure of the gas would increase with temperature; gasoline starts moving from liquid to vapor phase at about 95F. So if you were suffering from low pressure at some spot in the system, the fuel wouldn't necessarily vaporize immediately, but could at mildly increased temperatures. I would think that would also be consistent with a lean condition interpretation by the ECU.

I don't see how any of this could be consistent with the free-flowing fuel rail you just demonstrated, and I don't know your engine well enough to comment further. Maybe it will trigger something in the minds of those familiar with your engine. Good luck.

[jab351w]

all vacuum ports are either plugged or routed to things like vacuum assist brakes

Have you verified that the brake booster holds vacuum?

[toadster]

Have you verified that the brake booster holds vacuum?

yes tested this - holds a strong vacuum

[toadster]

I saw your purple wire there.. I'm assuming you did the Tach wire to one of those coil overs - sure thats all clean and correct?

correct - haven’t reattached the tachometer wire yet

[toadster]

Observations:

1. Your MAP spikes to atmospheric (100kpa) whenever you're applying throttle and you're only applying 25% max throttle. This is consistent in both logs.
2. On the first log, your O2's seem to be adjusting STFT's as they should. I see nothing immediately wrong with their operation, but I don't see where you're monitoring the O2 mV for each bank.
3. Your trouble codes are all symmetric except for P2008. Is there a Bank 2 for this code?
4. The fuel rail pressure gets up to >3,000psi with the O2's disconnected but only ~1,000psi in the initial log.
5. Your Fuel System #1 Status with the O2's plugged in is still "CL - Fault" status.

Is the MAP sensor the correct PN? Is it a 1 bar MAP? Is it installed in the correct location?

Take a look here for some info on the CL - Fault status: https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-Turbo-Advice

thanks for the eyeballs on the log

#1 good for consistency
#2 I can check mV in logging - was trying to grab as much as possible
#3 agree on symmetry for codes nothing from LUND on the same question I had
#4 fuel pressure seems to throttle back quite a bit, most likely a Safety precaution
#5 this is the perplexing part, two separate o2 harnesses same issue

the map sensor is from the control pack, Lund said it was tracking well for a non stock intake setup

[toadster]

ok - we did some off the wall testing tonight, thanks to my buddy Sean who've I've known for 25+ years...

he was here when the kit arrived, and hasn't seen the car in a while, so we went through our testing cycles, going through all the parts replaced, etc. pretty much relived this thread

we started talking about the direct injection and port injection on this engine, we hadn't checked the wiring to the lower (direct) injectors so we got out the boroscope and looked around, didn't see anything disconnected or any rodent damage
after a while, he said 'what if we disconnect the bank #2 injectors on top' - we figured it would be worth a try, since the other injectors would add some fuel to run as well

what do you know - the engine fired up and idled just fine, a few loud bangs, and the driver side got nice and hot! the bangs were excess gas in the cylinders relieving themselves
the look on my face must have been something else because we all started laughing, not thinking that the engine would work properly with injectors #5,6,7,8 unplugged - we were perplexed, yet somewhat relieved...

so what did that mean?

we tested with all 4 injectors disconnected, O2 readings were good, so we started a process of elimination

plugged in injector #5 and started the engine, O2 readings are good, temps coming up
plugged in injector #5 and #6 and, same goodness
we then additionally plugged in #7, so we had 5,6,7 plugged in, O2 readings are good! temps coming up!
then we plugged in #8, thinking - maybe it was just a fluke, NOPE - O2 readings went bad - so we determined that injector #8 must be stuck open!

unplugged #8 and it ran fine again... so tomorrow, going to the store to find a replacement injector...

what's really perplexing here is no codes led us to an injector!!

I'll definitely be changing the oil as it reeks of gasoline and has probably lost a lot of it's lubricity
leave it to me to be a guy who changes his oil before he puts a mile on his car...

fingers crossed, a new injector will remedy this!!!
I believe it's the MOTORCRAFT CM5269

here's a pic of my buddy Sean and my son Ryan when we first got the kit, it's been a journey!

[Alan_C]

Wow, good news but good grief, a stuck open injector? I am so glad that you are finally moving forward with probable solution.
Get a good nights sleep, a new injector, and ones hopes put this saga to rest.
Once you are sure of the failure, I think a long talk with Ford Performance is in store. I mean with all the troubleshooting hours you have put into your effort, they should trade your bad injector for some kind of compensation like extending the warranty period on your crate engine.

[Nigel Allen]

ok - we did some off the wall testing tonight, thanks to my buddy Sean who've I've known for 25+ years...

he was here when the kit arrived, and hasn't seen the car in a while, so we went through our testing cycles, going through all the parts replaced, etc. pretty much relived this thread

we started talking about the direct injection and port injection on this engine, we hadn't checked the wiring to the lower (direct) injectors so we got out the boroscope and looked around, didn't see anything disconnected or any rodent damage
after a while, he said 'what if we disconnect the bank #2 injectors on top' - we figured it would be worth a try, since the other injectors would add some fuel to run as well

what do you know - the engine fired up and idled just fine, a few loud bangs, and the driver side got nice and hot! the bangs were excess gas in the cylinders relieving themselves
the look on my face must have been something else because we all started laughing, not thinking that the engine would work properly with injectors #5,6,7,8 unplugged - we were perplexed, yet somewhat relieved...

so what did that mean?

we tested with all 4 injectors disconnected, O2 readings were good, so we started a process of elimination

plugged in injector #5 and started the engine, O2 readings are good, temps coming up
plugged in injector #5 and #6 and, same goodness
we then additionally plugged in #7, so we had 5,6,7 plugged in, O2 readings are good! temps coming up!
then we plugged in #8, thinking - maybe it was just a fluke, NOPE - O2 readings went bad - so we determined that injector #8 must be stuck open!

unplugged #8 and it ran fine again... so tomorrow, going to the store to find a replacement injector...

what's really perplexing here is no codes led us to an injector!!

I'll definitely be changing the oil as it reeks of gasoline and has probably lost a lot of it's lubricity
leave it to me to be a guy who changes his oil before he puts a mile on his car...

fingers crossed, a new injector will remedy this!!!
I believe it's the MOTORCRAFT CM5269

here's a pic of my buddy Sean and my son Ryan when we first got the kit, it's been a journey!

G'day Todd,

Well done! There is a stack of people in this community breathing a sigh of relief for you.

Onward and upward.

Cheers,

Nige

[JeffP]

A lot of speculation about debris in the fuel rail on this thread, I wonder if thats the issue after all that caused the injector to be stuck?

[jamminj]

It sounded like a mechanical issue hope it solves everything

[Tooth]

I can't believe how patient you've been with this. I really hope this is it.

[Mastertech5]

Glad to hear it, you finally got it.

[toadster]

A lot of speculation about debris in the fuel rail on this thread, I wonder if thats the issue after all that caused the injector to be stuck?

we thought the same thing... I almost swapped around injectors when I pulled off the fuel rail, it would have moved the issue around - but we had no clue until we tested like this
what's odd is that the injector 'clicked' when we applied 12v - and no codes from the ECU on this issue...

It sounded like a mechanical issue hope it solves everything

I can't believe how patient you've been with this. I really hope this is it.

G'day Todd,

Well done! There is a stack of people in this community breathing a sigh of relief for you.

Onward and upward.

Cheers,

Nige

Wow, good news but good grief, a stuck open injector? I am so glad that you are finally moving forward with probable solution.
Get a good nights sleep, a new injector, and ones hopes put this saga to rest.
Once you are sure of the failure, I think a long talk with Ford Performance is in store. I mean with all the troubleshooting hours you have put into your effort, they should trade your bad injector for some kind of compensation like extending the warranty period on your crate engine.

appreciate all of your inputs, it's been a slog, praying a new injector will remedy this once and for all!

[BradC]

Man, what an ordeal. Great detective work on it!! Hope the new injector gets it solved! Seems like Ford owes you something for sure.

[Railroad]

After reading your fuel rail post, I thought, surely he swapped sides with the inj to see if the problem moved.
Anyway, celebrating here for your success.
I am going to call it fixed. I know you are kicking your heels up.

[Al_C]

I, too, am thankful you solved it. I knew it had to be fuel related, but who'd have thought it was a single injector! I think everyone watching this thread has benefitted from your experience. I'm sorry you had to go through all this, but you've helped a lot of folks here with the details you've shared!

[Ted G]

Full disclosure Todd..... I did not drive by your house for at least the past week or so just to send you some good Joo Joo; or at least keep away the bad. If this works, you may owe me a beer or better yet, a killer Cabernet!

Ted

[toadster]

Full disclosure Todd..... I did not drive by your house for at least the past week or so just to send you some good Joo Joo; or at least keep away the bad. If this works, you may owe me a beer or better yet, a killer Cabernet!

Ted

LOL I've got both!

[kirby]

I had been watching this thread intently. I am glad you solved the problem. If it makes you feel better I am going to change my oil before I drive the car too.

[Lidodrip]

Very happy that you solved the problem, I think it is fair to say you now have a Master's degree in trouble shooting the Coyote. Strong work!

James

[spm97]

All,

Quick Intro : I'm the Sean that had the crazy idea to unplug the injectors and "let's see what happens".
I have to second what Todd said : The look on his face when it fired up without the port injectors plugged in was PRICELESS!.

I'm talking to todd now. He needs a priest. He replaced the injector, and still has the same problem.

If he unplugs ANY single injector, the seems to work, . If all eight are plugged in, the Bank 2 basically shuts down.

Anyone got any ideas ? It's either a fuel delivery problem, or not enough power to run EVERYTHING plugged in.

Sean

[JohnK]

He replaced the injector, and still has the same problem.

If he unplugs ANY single injector, the seems to work, . If all eight are plugged in, the Bank 2 basically shuts down.

That's very interesting (though I'm sure also pretty infuriating for poor Todd). That's a very significant additional clue. I have no idea what it means, but I'm guessing someone more familiar with the coyote, like Ford Performance or Lund, would find this additional information pretty useful. Hopefully the root cause is not too far away now.

Maybe not enough engine grounds? (JUST KIDDING !)

[Railroad]

The 4th injector takes the fuel ratio out of range for the O2 system. Too much fuel, as measured by the O2. Are the injectors on the bad side the same color as the other side? Does the noid light seem to pulse the same from one band to the other.
Do not know how, but could the bad side be batch firing the injectors. I am sure the Coyote is sequentially fired injectors.
Just guessing?

[Alan_C]

All,

Quick Intro : I'm the Sean that had the crazy idea to unplug the injectors and "let's see what happens".
I have to second what Todd said : The look on his face when it fired up without the port injectors plugged in was PRICELESS!.

I'm talking to todd now. He needs a priest. He replaced the injector, and still has the same problem.

If he unplugs ANY single injector, the seems to work, . If all eight are plugged in, the Bank 2 basically shuts down.

Anyone got any ideas ? It's either a fuel delivery problem, or not enough power to run EVERYTHING plugged in.

Sean

Well this is one for Ford Performance to step up and solve now. They need the engine back so that they can resolve their issue. The best thing that Ford Performance can do is warranty replace the engine with a new crate engine and let Todd move on with his life. Yes, the engine needs a exorcist, maybe Todd too as these demons have to left their mark.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Well this is one for Ford Performance to step up and solve now. They need the engine back so that they can resolve their issue. The best thing that Ford Performance can do is warranty replace the engine with a new crate engine and let Todd move on with his life. Yes, the engine needs a exorcist, maybe Todd too as these demons have to left their mark.

I have to disagree Alan. I can’t see this as an engine hard parts problem; it’s electrical or fuel related.

Jeff

[toadster]

update from what Sean mentioned...

i replaced injector #8, same issue O2 goes to max lean
unplug injector #8, O2 issue goes away

Sean asked to unplug injector #7, so all others plugged in - pulled #7, O2 issue goes away, plug back in O2 issue comes back
to further test, I pulled injector #1 (on bank 1), with all others plugged in, O2 issue (on bank#2) goes away

so it seems that having all 8 injectors plugged in (electrically) the O2 issue occurs on bank #2

it's always bank #2 O2 issues, never bank #1
the O2 issue only occurs when all 8 injectors are plugged in
the O2 issue goes away when just one of the injectors is unplugged

[toadster]

also, we were thinking possibly the fuel rail maybe wasn't feeding the whole way back to cylinder #8, maybe not blocked but maybe a restriction, so I upped the physical FPR to 71 psi (above the 65psi base) and didn't change the issue

since I know the engine is grounded, I'll go back and check the 12V feeds and redo them
super stumped

[Mastertech5]

Try plugging in the old #8 injector on the connector of the one you dissconnect and see what happens. It won't be connected to fuel so if it runs bad then you definitely have an electrical issue. If it runs good, fuel.

[J R Jones]

update from what Sean mentioned...

i replaced injector #8, same issue O2 goes to max lean
unplug injector #8, O2 issue goes away

Sean asked to unplug injector #7, so all others plugged in - pulled #7, O2 issue goes away, plug back in O2 issue comes back
to further test, I pulled injector #1 (on bank 1), with all others plugged in, O2 issue (on bank#2) goes away

so it seems that having all 8 injectors plugged in (electrically) the O2 issue occurs on bank #2

it's always bank #2 O2 issues, never bank #1
the O2 issue only occurs when all 8 injectors are plugged in
the O2 issue goes away when just one of the injectors is unplugged

T,
This is almost identical to my experience posted here on 10-30. That was a C4 Corvette and I too got all the "fix the ground" suggestions.
In that case the injectors are constant 12V and (each bank) gets switched to ground. I went for the ground signal coming out of the ECU, and it was not there. That was a simple system compared to your Coyote and a new ECU fixed it.
jim

[toadster]

T,
This is almost identical to my experience posted here on 10-30. That was a C4 Corvette and I too got all the "fix the ground" suggestions.
In that case the injectors are constant 12V and (each bank) gets switched to ground. I went for the ground signal coming out of the ECU, and it was not there. That was a simple system compared to your Coyote and a new ECU fixed it.
jim

yes, this is my concern as we're on a 2nd ECU and 2nd engine harness...

the only part that hasn't been replaced is the PDU harness which I'm wondering if it may be causing the electrical issues, so I'll be verifying all those connections

[toadster]

Try plugging in the old #8 injector on the connector of the one you dissconnect and see what happens. It won't be connected to fuel so if it runs bad then you definitely have an electrical issue. If it runs good, fuel.

we tested this last night, the injector plugged into the harness didn't seem to cycle when we ran the engine
and the engine still triggered bank #2 O2 when all 8 injectors plugged in

we still get a clean O2 reading when 7 of 8 injectors are plugged in, but when all 8 injectors are plugged in it triggers the O2

still on the path that this could be an electrical issue... only thing we haven't swapped out is the PDU for the Control Pack
Ford states it shouldn't cause any issues with O2, but given this is the power unit for the control pack, I'm starting to think it may be one more thing to test/replace?

[toadster]

if anyone is interested I have my HP Tuner logs here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...qf?usp=sharing

[Alan_C]

What has been your communication with Ford Performance? With all that you have been through, it is time they just stood tall and replace the crate engine, controls pack, engine and body harnesses. You have gone so far beyond what normal troubleshooting should require. As much as I believe you want to fix it, diminishing returns and just more delays.

[Mastertech5]

The O2 sensors shouldn't even affect how the the engine runs until you get into closed loop, about when the coolant hits 160 degrees. This is all very wierd! There's one thing that bugs me about Ford. They use all these acronyms and don't really give you a index to see what they stand for. So with that said, what's the PDU?

[toadster]

What has been your communication with Ford Performance? With all that you have been through, it is time they just stood tall and replace the crate engine, controls pack, engine and body harnesses. You have gone so far beyond what normal troubleshooting should require. As much as I believe you want to fix it, diminishing returns and just more delays.

yep we were testing the PDU harness tonight, figured out which fuses feed the injectors, COPs, etc... still nothing...

The O2 sensors shouldn't even affect how the the engine runs until you get into closed loop, about when the coolant hits 160 degrees. This is all very wierd! There's one thing that bugs me about Ford. They use all these acronyms and don't really give you a index to see what they stand for. So with that said, what's the PDU?

PDU = Power Distribution Unit - e.g. the fuse box with the 250A bussman fuse

feels like we're chasing a ghost... need an electrical exorcist!

[spm97]

Hey all,
Does anyone have a detailed pinout of the Fuse Box ? From what we can tell, fuses 1 thru 4 will get power once the engine is "started" (they do NOT have power with just the key on - something must "Enable" them). If anyone can tell me how they get powered, that would help.
The supply for fuses 1 thru 4 seems to be connected, which makes sense if it's the output from a relay. Which relay ?

Can someone please confirm with the key just in the "On" position, if you put a voltmeter between the wire that is common to all the injectors (i think it was a blue/gray color) and ground you have 0 volts.

We figured out the Fuse1 goes to the PDU harness pins 1,2,13, and one of the pins in the third connector (can't remember it's name).

It _Appears_ that Fuse 2 and Fuse 4 go to the larger connector with 4 wires (3 of the 4 pins on the outside have a heavier gauge wire, and one of the small center pins is used, and then there are a lot of unused small pins) that T's off the PDU harness right before the ECU. one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Coils, and one of those 4 wires _Appears_ to be the +12V for the Cam Solenoids, which I believe are fuse #2 and Fuse #4. Again, it someone could confirm that, it would be appreciated.

The remaining larger wire on that connector APPEARS to be the +12V for the injectors, but the weird thing is it is connected to the "Supply" side of Fuses 1-4. And we never found anything connected to the load side of Fuse #3 (at least before I left).

I think something is screwy with the +12V for the injectors. It makes no sense that (again - from the best I could tell) they are all connected to the Supply side of fuses 1 thru 4.

Anyway, that's my thoughts from the evening. Hopefully this helps give people ideas.

Sean

[Erik W. Treves]

your logs clearly show Bank 2 as lean - no fuel on start or 30 seconds in and then recovers fine.

your logs aren't logging enough data to provide any more info....

your cams are good as is timing.... your DI pressure looks ok - but I don't see fuel injector PW - the MAF and air load look good as well

Are you sure the MAF isn't in there backwards?

it definitely clears up though - are you sure you don't have an exhaust leak in front of the O2 on bank 2? it is basically showing LEAN the entire time but trims are good.... have you checked voltage at that O2?? it seems to be ok on start then checks out.

I would look really closely at the fuel injectors and flush out the fuel rail to make sure you don't have any debris that made it to the injectors - then swap them to the other side bank...

[Railroad]

I would see if I could get Ford to approve and pay for a scan at a Ford dealer. Their equipment is unreal for the amount of data that is accessible.
It also can show a history, hopefully on crate engine ECU's also.
If the Ford hotline is really concerned about the issue, I feel this would be an easy choice for them.
I would take stan97 with me, if it happens.

[Ducky2009]

also, we were thinking possibly the fuel rail maybe wasn't feeding the whole way back to cylinder #8, maybe not blocked but maybe a restriction, so I upped the physical FPR to 71 psi (above the 65psi base) and didn't change the issue

Is it possible that the gauge is defective and you're getting too much pressure? Have you tried turning the fuel pressure down?

[toadster]

Is it possible that the gauge is defective and you're getting too much pressure? Have you tried turning the fuel pressure down?

checked with gauge and with the computer, they're in sync - i trusted the measurement, so I removed the FPR gauge and just running off the ECU measurements