Perfomance Expectations

[JRL]

Using the typical performance measurements what do you expect.

HP
Weight
0 - 60
0 - 100
1/4 Mile
Top Speed
70 - 0 Braking
Lateral G's
MPG

Cost for you to meet your expectations.

[Kalstar]

HP 250
Weight <2000
0 - 60 <4.3sec
0 - 100 <9sec
1/4 Mile 12.0- 12.5
Top Speed 150mph
70 - 0 Braking 140ft
Lateral G's >1.00
MPG who cares.....20ish??
Cost....Sub 18K

[PhyrraM]

HP: Enough to clench, but not pinch. (Stock WRX with a tune for 818 exhaust should do it)
Weight: As little as possible
0 - 60: Faster than anything I've ever driven before.
0 - 100: Faster than anything my friends have ever driven before.
1/4 Mile: Fast enough that I have to fight the urge to lift.
Top Speed: Not likely to ever find out, but surely it can redline in top gear.
70 - 0 Braking: Quickly enough to make seatbelts manditory, again and again...right up to the threats of divorce from the passenger.
Lateral G's: Enough to make any drink, in any container, a sticky mess.
MPG: No care. 250+ mile range.

Cost for you to meet your expectations. With any luck - $9900 + Shipping + tires + DMV + garage full of Subaru parts.

[DrieStone]

HP 250
Weight <2000
0 - 60 <4.3sec
0 - 100 <9sec
1/4 Mile 12.0- 12.5
Top Speed 150mph
70 - 0 Braking 140ft
Lateral G's >1.00
MPG who cares.....20ish??
Cost....Sub 18K

I'd agree with pretty much all of this, although my expectation of Top Speed for the non-race version would be more around 135-140MPH and 1/4 mile probably 12.5-13.0 seconds.

I really don't care about top speed or 1/4 mile for the most part. I care about the 10-100MPH and lateral G's.

[Silvertop]

HP: Enough to clench, but not pinch. (Stock WRX with a tune for 818 exhaust should do it)
Weight: As little as possible
0 - 60: Faster than anything I've ever driven before.
0 - 100: Faster than anything my friends have ever driven before.
1/4 Mile: Fast enough that I have to fight the urge to lift.
Top Speed: Not likely to ever find out, but surely it can redline in top gear.
70 - 0 Braking: Quickly enough to make seatbelts manditory, again and again...right up to the threats of divorce from the passenger.
Lateral G's: Enough to make any drink, in any container, a sticky mess.
MPG: No care. 250+ mile range.

Cost for you to meet your expectations. With any luck - $9900 + Shipping + tires + DMV + garage full of Subaru parts.

I like the way you think.

[Draco-REX]

My plan is for an easy 400 crank hp build. With my big bulk in the seat the internet calculators are giving me sub-3sec 0-60 times and mid-10sec 1/4 mi times. I doubt that, personally, and would be happy with 0-60 in the low 4s and 1/4mi times in the low 12s, high 11s. If it DOES do those times above, I'll be amazed and probably be stricken with perma-grin for a few days.

[Oppenheimer]

~250 HP
~1800 lbs Weight
<4.5 sec 0 - 60
not important 0 - 100
not important 1/4 Mile
not important Top Speed
<140 ft 70 - 0 Braking
~.9 Lateral G's
30+ hwy MPG

I plan to drive the car, a lot. As in all the time. All the time its not pouring rain or icey roads, and I don't need to carry a lot of stuff or people. So MPG is important. Not as important as performance, but at this PW ratio, I know all the performance I want will be there. Am I good candidate for the TDi drivetrain? Perhaps, but I'll probably go with WRX. All the power I could want and more easily obtainable, still likely to get decent MPG when I'm not heavy on the pedal.

[vozproto]

HP: Enough to clench, but not pinch. (Stock WRX with a tune for 818 exhaust should do it)
Weight: As little as possible
0 - 60: Faster than anything I've ever driven before.
0 - 100: Faster than anything my friends have ever driven before.
1/4 Mile: Fast enough that I have to fight the urge to lift.
Top Speed: Not likely to ever find out, but surely it can redline in top gear.
70 - 0 Braking: Quickly enough to make seatbelts manditory, again and again...right up to the threats of divorce from the passenger.
Lateral G's: Enough to make any drink, in any container, a sticky mess.
MPG: No care. 250+ mile range.

Cost for you to meet your expectations. With any luck - $9900 + Shipping + tires + DMV + garage full of Subaru parts.

Hahahaha. Very nice.

This should be posted on the window sticker for specifications.
So much more exciting than the standard window sticker on today's cars.

[Xusia]

HP: Expecting about 300 with an 08 STi engine mated to the 5mt
Weight: FFR states 1800 lbs.
0 - 60: My requirement is <5 secs, but I expect this car to be around 4 secs, maybe less.
0 - 100: I don't really care, as I'm not likely to exceed 100mph (it will be a daily driver that probably won't see any track time - we'll see!).
1/4 Mile: I don't race, so I'm unlikely to know for sure, but base on specs it should be <12 secs.
Top Speed: Don't really care at all; will prob depend on gearing. It will have the power-to-wait ratio to reach 150+ (with gearing that allows for that).
70 - 0 Braking: 125 feet.
Lateral G's: 1.05 - 1.10. Supposedly, this will be their best handling car, and I believe the Daytona Coupe is good for 1.05, so this car should do better.
MPG: Literally ANYTHING will be better than the 13 mpg my truck gets now.

I'm budgeting $20k (which I believe is totally plausible), though I'm trying to keep costs to as little as possible.

[skullandbones]

Go to the FFR performance chart and make it first place in every column including against the Enzo! And that includes the price, of course. No problem there. WEK.

[Evan78]

As a point of comparison, here are results from Edmunds on a 2007 Lotus Exige S that had a supercharged 1.8L rated at 220hp/165tq and weighs 2050 lbs.

0-60 - 4.2
1/4 - 12.8 @ 105.5

And on the other end of the spectrum is an Edmunds test of an Atom running a supercharged K20 engine making estimated 375hp/275tq weighing 1350 lbs.

0-60 - 2.8
1/4 - 10.6 @ 128.4

So I would guess sub 4 seconds on 0-60 and low 12's in the quarter using a stock turbo'd 2.0L wrx engine that makes around 275hp.

[DrieStone]

So I would guess sub 4 seconds on 0-60 and low 12's in the quarter using a stock turbo'd 2.0L wrx engine that makes around 275hp.

Not to rehash, but I don't think the prospective donor vehicles are 275hp (that's the 2.5l WRX). Stock WRX donor (2.0l) in the proper model years is 227hp (although with a simple uppipe/downpipe upgrade you should be able to achieve ~260hp).

So based on the Exige S stats I'd say we're looking at about the same targets with the base WRX motor which is what I'd expect. The biggest difference is that the aftermarket is going to be huge compared to the Exige.

[Evan78]

275hp is a realistic crank hp for a 2.0L with the typical turboback exhaust and tune. No non-STi WRX has been factory rated at 275hp. The current model is 265hp. The 2.0L motors will typically do 220-230 whp on the stock TD04 turbo with an exhaust and tune. Typical unmodified power is about 175whp.

I'm no Subaru expert, but I've put around 200k on modified 2.0 and 2.5L Subarus spread over 3 cars.

But that's all off topic, this thread isn't about what stock or modified engines make. The question was what performance do you expect, and naturally HP has a relationship with acceleration numbers.

[thane]

I expect a basic build (stock 2.5l motor and turbo with tune-around 220 whp) to produce Exige like numbers. My concern is that, when you get to the sharp end of car performance, driver ability and the ability of the car to put power to the ground become really variable. To illustrate what I mean, I'll offer the following example: My expectation is that an 818 with the same power to weight ratio of a GTR will struggle to produce the same acceleration numbers as a GTR. We'll see; like everyone else, I'm just conjecturing. That said, I hope to use my '06 wagon to build a car that will reliably put down Exige-like numbers and get around 35 mpg/highway.

thane

[Brian Z]

A roadster with 300hp goes 0-60 in around 3.6 seconds. That's a 2,300lb car...
The 818 will be 1,800lbs with more weight over the rear tires. I'm guessing somewhere around 3.5 or 3.4 seconds to 60 mph.

[Les Edwards]

I drove my go cart enough to realize that I couldn't possibly pay for all the tickets I COULD get. A little scary huh?

[BrandonDrums]

A roadster with 300hp goes 0-60 in around 3.6 seconds. That's a 2,300lb car...
The 818 will be 1,800lbs with more weight over the rear tires. I'm guessing somewhere around 3.5 or 3.4 seconds to 60 mph.

Man that's fast.

My expectations for me are

HP: 300 whp
Weight 1,850 lbs (AC/Heat)
0 - 60 a little less than 4 seconds on average, 3.5 sounds quick but I imagine with good tires and a steady foot it can be done.
0 - 100 quickly
1/4 Mile - in the twelves at least
Top Speed - I think 5th gear maxes out around 180 but with a roadser's COD, I bet we're looking at 160-170
70 - 0 Braking - what's too fast to live through and back it off just a little bit
Lateral G's - 1.00 on streetable summer tires, DOT legal competitions and it could be 1.1+
MPG - for the 2.0L 25 combined, 22 city 29 highway. With a 2.5L 20 city and 27 or 28 highway, gearing really limits the highway numbers, too many revs/mile and at 65-75 in 5th gear your right there at max spoolup range for the stock turbos. However, I could have really low expectations, I really don't know what to expect with that much weight off and 2wd. I just seem to believe the EJ turbo motors suffer more from being EFI turbo engines than being attached to an AWD system, so much fuel is used just to protect the engine which doesn't change when you take weight off of it.

Another performance expectation: I hope and expect to be performing my build in the next 3 years...

[bbjones121]

There is no way that this thing would be anywhere above 3.5 seconds to 60mph with 300whp.
You WILL have trouble with traction at start, but a 1/4mile should be in low to mid 11 seconds.

12's......seriously???

my Legacy (3400+lbs) with 350whp runs a 1/4 in 12.8 at a mile high elevation!

818 about 6.3lbs per hp (about the same as a Pagani Zonda)
my legacy gt 9.7lbs per hp

You can play around with this rough estimate tool I found online.
http://robrobinette.com/et.htm

Granted it won't be as aerodynamic as a Pagani, but I have some faith in FFR to put some thought in the aero.

[kach22i]

Any guess what a cheapskate 170 hp model's performance would be?

0-60 in about 6 seconds?

[PhyrraM]

Any guess what a cheapskate 170 hp model's performance would be?

0-60 in about 6 seconds?

@1800 pounds - likely more like low 5.XX

[Silvertop]

@1800 pounds - likely more like low 5.XX

Which is probably fast enough to get MY pants wet!!!!

[Niburu]

I expect it to go like stink.

[kach22i]

@1800 pounds - likely more like low 5.XX

More than fast enough for me.

As long as I can prevent those soccer moms from trying to drive me off the road, I'm happy.

[apexanimal]

^oh yeah...

i think most of us get happy when talking about a turbo, but the 2.5l n/a is going to make this thing get up and go... it won't be supercar territory, but it'll be quick enough, and handle the same (it'll be minus some weight vs turbo), to embarass quite a few cars out there...

[bbjones121]

^oh yeah...

i think most of us get happy when talking about a turbo, but the 2.5l n/a is going to make this thing get up and go... it won't be supercar territory, but it'll be quick enough, and handle the same (it'll be minus some weight vs turbo), to embarass quite a few cars out there...

Definitely need the turbo out here at a mile high. N/A is terrible up here.

stock n/a engine at sea level should still get you a mid 12 second 1/4 mile, that is faster or as fast as almost any sport car you will see out on the road.

[shinn497]

I have a question.

Say I put a spec C ver 8 EJ207 and tune it to 400 + wtq.. I am not saying this is a good idea but I am just wondering...Wouldn't I need MASSIVE super sticky tires? Since this thing is so light, it does not have as much weight pushing down on the rear tires. How much of a performance limit would this impose.

[Dave Smith]

This is a favorite topic of mine as we get closer to testing the car. I can tell you that Jim and Jesper loathe the idea of predicting times/performance since they are both of the opinion that the car industry is rife with BS artists who claim numbers but never back em up. The numbers we've posted are usually (always) from an independent source. Car and Driver tested the GTM and our claims were modest. The 3.0 number they reached was actually 2.88 seconds corrected for temp/pressure. I don't care since the car actually ran 2.88 sec to 60 sheesh that's very very fast.

With respect to the 818, I think all the essential elements are there and the design charter includes a heavy emphasis on performance in release 1. I will torment Jim and ask him to make an educated guess based on all data available up to now and our real-world experience of our other designs. My guess is that the car will be capable of more than most people will reallly be able to use on a public road. I can't imagine putting a Factory Five badge on any car that doesnt perform.

CORRECTION: The time for the GTM was not corrected upwards as I thought. It was 2006 and the car simply ran 3.00 seconds flat.

[bbjones121]

I have a question.

Say I put a spec C ver 8 EJ207 and tune it to 400 + wtq.. I am not saying this is a good idea but I am just wondering...Wouldn't I need MASSIVE super sticky tires? Since this thing is so light, it does not have as much weight pushing down on the rear tires. How much of a performance limit would this impose.

If you had that much power in the 2 liter, it would be coming at very high revs. Since you wont have the jolt off the line, asuming you want the clutch to last, it may be able to keep a better traction than a 2.5 with that much torque. That sure would be a laggy setup. Lag can be fun if you know how to drive with it.

[Someday I Suppose]

Dave, that right there should be incorporated into the FFR Marketing... How fast is it is probably the question I get the most about the roadster, the answer is I have no idea, fast enough that I can put a smile on my face anytime I want, and fast enough to have a ton of respect for the go pedal.

My guess is that the car will be capable of more than most people will reallly be able to use on a public road. I can't imagine putting a Factory Five badge on any car that doesnt perform.

[skullandbones]

Dave,
Can you give the forum an idea of how the testing process will go? I am curious as to what body will be used. Will it be a prototype like Jim's designed body since it exists already? Are there usually major changes made to the chassis and running gear or have you pretty much perfected the mechanicals of the project? I was hoping you could give some examples based on the history of the other designs by FFR. Thanks, WEK.

[Jim Schenck]

Edited: Thinking about it some more I think it is more important for us (here at FFR) to get the car done and show the real numbers than try and guess what it'll do. Nothing wrong with speculating but being the manufacturer I'd rather to let the real data do the talking.

[MuddyRoverRob]

That should be quick enough to not hold up granny in the buick!

[thestigwins]

Jim, slip us some inside info where are we at in the design process? I will send you a case of beer! your choice!

[mattster03]

As a guy who takes drag racing pretty seriously, I would predict the car's quarter mile to range anywhere from mid-high 11's to mid-high 12's for your average 250whp 818; Completely dependant on tire and driver skill. Put a set of ET streets on there and with practice and provided your drivetrain holds up, welcome to the 11's. If it's your first time out and you use a set of 300 treadwear rating summer tires and you'll be stuck in the mid 12's. Drag tracks are prepped for a specific adheision between heated slicks and the launch area; this prepping often makes trying to hook with street tires even worse than on normal tarmac.

Be careful of those online calculators, you really need to know how to use them... this is why civic drivers often claim they have a "10 second car" right before they go and run a nice solid 13. And don't forget your car doesn't drive itself... add in driver weight.

[apexanimal]

For Dave, and again at gun point, I ran the basic configuration through our simulator using a standard WRX 227hp engine, stock differential (open) and street tires. That shows 0-60 in 4.9 and a 1/4 mile of 13.4

not that i want to hold a gun to your head

vauge estimate with a n/a motor?

[bbjones121]

I would predict the car's quarter mile to range anywhere from mid-high 11's to mid-high 12's for your average 250whp 818;

No matter what the online 1/4 estimators say, that should be in the high 11's. Grab a trusty calculator or use the one on your computer.
250whp@the crank is probably 300hp (obviously you could argue this up or down based on the various dynamometers out there).
That is 6lbs per hp (not including driver...obviously if you are small and skinny, you will be faster than a tall and fat person).

A lotus exige s is 260hp @ 2060lbs, that is 7.9lbs per hp (not including driver), it runs a 12.6sec 1/4 mile
The lotus 2 eleven is 252hp @ 1480lbs, that is 5.8lbs per hp, it runs a 12.2 1/4 mile (now we are getting closer)

With this info alone you could say it should be in the low 12's, but you need to look at the power curves of these engines. The lotus 2zz 1.8l Toyota engine runs a much lower torque than that of the subaru. When you say 250whp on the Subaru engine you can bet you are probably getting more than that in torque, in most cases you will probably have more torque than horsepower. There is going to be a lot more area under the curve with the Subaru engine that should cut a quarter to a half second off the slip time.

Like you said, this is all up to the driver and assuming you don't slip the tires.

provided your drivetrain holds up,

The subaru drive-train would be bulletproof in normal form at that power level, I don't know what the FWD conversion on the thing will do.

[Strang08070]

gota love ppl posting about cars without looking it up. the 2-11 weight just under 2150 pounds wet an has a 189 horse engine.

[bbjones121]

gota love ppl posting about cars without looking it up. the 2-11 weight just under 2150 pounds wet an has a 189 horse engine.

You might want to check your sources. Or if you dont want to, take a look at a a picture of a 2eleven and then look at a picture of an exige. Once you do that, ask yourself if it makes any sense to say a 2 eleven weighs more than an exige like you just did.

[Dave Smith]

Couple of answers here (and btw, Mad Dog and I have HIBERNATED ALL WEEK) working on the new FFR website which inlcudes an updated 818 section.

The final body shape of the first 818 model has been selected and has been fully digitized. It will be a roadster to start with a later soft top for sure and a likely removable hardtop. We will not show the body until we have a driving car. We MAY show the finished CAD model body shape soon if all is good. The project has gone a bit dark and that is a function of us having the data we need and simply wanting to design and build the car as fast as possible without compromising quality or making claims that end up inflated.

Regarding performance though, I do feel that this car will (has to) be on the upper end of what we've done up to now. I can see a 300-350 hp car that weighs 1800 lbs and runs sticky DOT legal tires running easily in the threes (to 60) and 1/4 mile times in the 11's. At the same time I think most people will be BLOWn away with the fun factor (and speed) of a $500 Imprezza donor build even with the torquey little 165 hp mill. Good brakes, suspension and FFR handling should make a smile wrap around your head. I own one of each FFR model and from the work I've seen to date on the 818 I am more anxious to throw this thing around than any other. I can't wait to drive this thing and the variables we are discussing will be better discussed with data.

Jim wants to let the car speak for itself and that is fine. We're close to the new website and perhaps a more detailed (but not EXACT) parts list of Subie parts that will be needed.

The traction issue is a big one, but the crew has a good history with solving those challenges and the car is mid-engined. All I can say is that a spec racer at 2400 lbs and 225 hp/300 lb ft nails 0-60 in 4.5 seconds all day long with toyo prox 888 DOT race tires. I think that accel times will be all over the map. The one thing I am absolutely 100% sure of at this point is that the car will be one of the most entertaining and fun cars to drive on the planet.

[keys2heaven]

Thanks Dave.

Can you or will you tell us if this final body shape is based off of one of the winning designs from the body contest?