Perfomance Expectations

[JLee]

Couple of answers here (and btw, Mad Dog and I have HIBERNATED ALL WEEK) working on the new FFR website which inlcudes an updated 818 section.

The final body shape of the first 818 model has been selected and has been fully digitized. It will be a roadster to start with a later soft top for sure and a likely removable hardtop. We will not show the body until we have a driving car. We MAY show the finished CAD model body shape soon if all is good. The project has gone a bit dark and that is a function of us having the data we need and simply wanting to design and build the car as fast as possible without compromising quality or making claims that end up inflated.

Regarding performance though, I do feel that this car will (has to) be on the upper end of what we've done up to now. I can see a 300-350 hp car that weighs 1800 lbs and runs sticky DOT legal tires running easily in the threes (to 60) and 1/4 mile times in the 11's. At the same time I think most people will be BLOWn away with the fun factor (and speed) of a $500 Imprezza donor build even with the torquey little 165 hp mill. Good brakes, suspension and FFR handling should make a smile wrap around your head. I own one of each FFR model and from the work I've seen to daye on the 818 I am more anxious to throw this thing around than any other. I can't wait to drive this thing and the variables we are discussing will be better discussed with data.

Jim wants to let the car speak for itself and that is fine. We're close to the new website and perhaps a more detailed (but not EXACT) parts list of Subie parts that will be needed.

Excellent! I'll be keeping an eye on the website...may have finally found something I would consider replacing my MR2 with, so long as it has AC and a roof (AZ summers are a little extreme to go without that).

[Dave Smith]

I can say that the final body shape #1 that is going to production as I write this is going to make people happy and was tremendously affected by customer feedback, among other things. Right now the schedule dates are the most important, so that folks don't get frustrated with the pace. Keep in mind, we have been on target with this project (that was announced one year ago). We will not take deposits or make wild claims before we've developed the car and the launch plan should be clear enough soon to allow guys to plan their builds accordingly.

[skullandbones]

Dave,

Is there a definite date for the website update or is that just when you and MD get it done? Thanks, WEK.

[2KWIK4U]

Couple of answers here (and btw, Mad Dog and I have HIBERNATED ALL WEEK) working on the new FFR website which inlcudes an updated 818 section.

The final body shape of the first 818 model has been selected and has been fully digitized. It will be a roadster to start with a later soft top for sure and a likely removable hardtop. We will not show the body until we have a driving car. We MAY show the finished CAD model body shape soon if all is good. The project has gone a bit dark and that is a function of us having the data we need and simply wanting to design and build the car as fast as possible without compromising quality or making claims that end up inflated.

Regarding performance though, I do feel that this car will (has to) be on the upper end of what we've done up to now. I can see a 300-350 hp car that weighs 1800 lbs and runs sticky DOT legal tires running easily in the threes (to 60) and 1/4 mile times in the 11's. At the same time I think most people will be BLOWn away with the fun factor (and speed) of a $500 Imprezza donor build even with the torquey little 165 hp mill. Good brakes, suspension and FFR handling should make a smile wrap around your head. I own one of each FFR model and from the work I've seen to date on the 818 I am more anxious to throw this thing around than any other. I can't wait to drive this thing and the variables we are discussing will be better discussed with data.

Jim wants to let the car speak for itself and that is fine. We're close to the new website and perhaps a more detailed (but not EXACT) parts list of Subie parts that will be needed.

The traction issue is a big one, but the crew has a good history with solving those challenges and the car is mid-engined. All I can say is that a spec racer at 2400 lbs and 225 hp/300 lb ft nails 0-60 in 4.5 seconds all day long with toyo prox 888 DOT race tires. I think that accel times will be all over the map. The one thing I am absolutely 100% sure of at this point is that the car will be one of the most entertaining and fun cars to drive on the planet.

This is great news, I can't wait to see what you chose for the first design. Thanks for the update

[spaceywilly]

Thanks for the updates Dave. I am excited about this car again and can't wait for moochfest

[Xusia]

Oh how exciting!!! I can't wait to see the final body shape!

[Silvertop]

This is great news, I can't wait to see what you chose for the first design. Thanks for the update

Echo that 10X!!!

Here's hoping the Car #1 body reveal happens VERY soon! I'm making my first-ever visit to FFR Friday, March 9. It would be fantastic to get a peek................!

[fateo66]

We're close to the new website and perhaps a more detailed (but not EXACT) parts list of Subie parts that will be needed.

The traction issue is a big one, but the crew has a good history with solving those challenges and the car is mid-engined. All I can say is that a spec racer at 2400 lbs and 225 hp/300 lb ft nails 0-60 in 4.5 seconds all day long with toyo prox 888 DOT race tires. I think that accel times will be all over the map. The one thing I am absolutely 100% sure of at this point is that the car will be one of the most entertaining and fun cars to drive on the planet.

I for one am really excited to get an updated parts list and more definitive mechanical details, that's where the devils at!

[VTX]

I can say that the final body shape #1 that is going to production as I write this is going to make people happy and was tremendously affected by customer feedback, among other things. Right now the schedule dates are the most important, so that folks don't get frustrated with the pace. Keep in mind, we have been on target with this project (that was announced one year ago). We will not take deposits or make wild claims before we've developed the car and the launch plan should be clear enough soon to allow guys to plan their builds accordingly.

Well, that's exciting to hear. Are there any more details that you can share? For example, is it one of the winning designs, or is it a modification of a winning design, or a whole new design?

[bromikl]

The final body shape of the first 818 model has been selected and has been fully digitized.

Emphasis added.

Keep in mind the first body produced won't be the only body produced. I predict a good 40-60% of us will be disappointed with the design. Not because it will be unattractive - but because we each have a predetermined favorite.

[Flamshackle]

I can say that the final body shape #1 that is going to production as I write this is going to make people happy and was tremendously affected by customer feedback, among other things. Right now the schedule dates are the most important, so that folks don't get frustrated with the pace. Keep in mind, we have been on target with this project (that was announced one year ago). We will not take deposits or make wild claims before we've developed the car and the launch plan should be clear enough soon to allow guys to plan their builds accordingly.

Great news Dave,

Simply putting together what we know...

-Rodney O and FFR have already been in contact with each other in regards to the design
-His design was definitely the most "tremendously affected by customer feedback"

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that we are going to be getting something along the lines of this car right here...

rodneyO Roadster.jpg

AND OH MAN DO I NEED ONE

[DrieStone]

Great news Dave,
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that we are going to be getting something along the lines of this car right here...

I too am interested in seeing what the 1.0 car looks like, however, I believe Rodney hasn't really had a lot of interaction with FFR, so my guess is that the first car is something unrelated to Rodney's design (thinking that if Rodney's design became an alternate in the future FFR wouldn't want the 1.0 car looking too much like it).

[skullandbones]

Well, I don't think the body type will make much difference as far as performance is concerned but I am curious as to how the FFR team will solve the traction problem with this project. I hope they employee some fender flaring or some method of allowing larger tires. Getting 300+ hp to connect to the pavement will be a real challenge. They may go with some fancy adjustable shock combo but that would also drive the price of the suspension through the roof. I think Dave is right: the acceleration numbers will be everywhere until the right combo is learned and becomes common knowledge. WEK.

[kach22i]

I too am interested in seeing what the 1.0 car looks like, however, I believe Rodney hasn't really had a lot of interaction with FFR, so my guess is that the first car is something unrelated to Rodney's design (thinking that if Rodney's design became an alternate in the future FFR wouldn't want the 1.0 car looking too much like it).

Either way, we really don't know what Santa (Dave Smith) is putting in the FFR 818 Christmas box and wrapping up.

[Silvertop]

Either way, we really don't know what Santa (Dave Smith) is putting in the FFR 818 Christmas box and wrapping up.

No, we absolutely don't know. It seems inevitable that we will be unable to resist speculating however, based on the last half-dozen or so posts. I guess I can't resist either.

My thinking is that launch #1 will be based on a modification of one of the existing winning designs, either Rodney's or Xabier's. I actually think that Xabier's (with scaled down front openings) may be the one, though I'm not 100% sure why I believe that. Wishful thinking, maybe, or possibly the fact that Dave Smith showed some partiality toward this design in the past. Either design could be an excellent choice, however. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Oppenheimer]

People speculate endlessly about the winner of the big game in the days and weeks leading up to it. Why should this be any different?

So, who is going to start the pool?

[Niburu]

I'm gonna laugh if it turns out to be Stratos replica afterall

[DrieStone]

I'm gonna laugh if it turns out to be Stratos replica afterall

If that happens I'd buy two.

[PhyrraM]

60% In house car reworked or revised - again.
15% Xabier's
15% Rodney's
10% something else

[keys2heaven]

60% In house car reworked or revised - again.
15% Xabier's
15% Rodney's
10% something else

I don't buy this. Dave indicated that Jim's concept was out.

Since RISD was working on the Xabier concept, I'm leaning towards that being the first body.

Dave loved the design and it truly is setup as a roadster. Plus, it can be trackified easily.

[Draco-REX]

45% RodneyO Roadster
40% Jim/VMan hybrid
10% Nosejob Xabier
5% something else.

EDIT: I should state that this is based on Dave's emphasis on the community input on Body#1 (818A?). Rodney's has had tons of input and is already in CAD-ready form. Also, on his last update he revealed a roadster body out of the blue. VMan's also had a lot of input and it's been commented that VMan's nose and tail would go well on Jim's car. And a visitor to FFR stated that the full-scale body was having it's nose reshaped. Dave has also said that he has had HoF moments with both designs.

Xabier's was a favorite early on as well, and Dave LOVED the track concept. With work being done on it already, it's a possibility. But Xabier's hasn't had the input that the other two designs did. And the final 5% is because anything can happen, always leave your options open.

[keys2heaven]

Xabier's had quite the cult following before the design contest was over.

[RM1SepEx]

I like the Xabier concept and think that a top would be easier on one. He sent it to RISD but it didn't get the tremendous feedback on the site. (though about the same number of people actually provided inputs as those who did for Rodney's, his was almost designed by a continued evolution.) Dave told us that he was "talking with Rodney" in past discussions. His is also already in compatable CAD format so...

I'm at 40% Rodneys with signifigant changes that make it fit the molding process etc... but the shape will be obvious

50% Xabier's with RISD input, that means it will also have signifigant changes from what was drawn and shown as the 1/4 scale model. this is by far the most unique body style...

10% I have my head up my *** one of the other's somehow squeeked in Shawn's, Vman's.... I like them both too!

Dave has answered cryptically enough to tease us both ways, he is damn good at that! (I tried to get more info out of him at Moochfest... he had the story down pat, echoed the post above... ) And finally either one will be in my garage as soon as possible!

1800 lbs 225WHP with some simple "teaks" to a stock WRX drivetrain. We are talking smiles that will break your face! Looks, performance, and knowing it's all yours... PRICELESS

[DrieStone]

I've been thinking about this too. At first I considered that the v1.0 was all new, and not based on anything we've seen yet, but now I'm not sure.

I find it very unlikely that it's Rodney's design. I know Dave popped in at one point and seemed to indicate that he liked the direction, but based on the timing, I just don't think that has any bearing on the first version. Rodney has been fairly active in the forum, and was offering changes etc fairly recently. I would imagine he would have disappeared off the forum to preserve the surprise if he was working closely with FFR (or if FFR had taken over the design). I could see FFR/RISD taking over the design without telling Rodney, but I find it unlikely.

Dave also indicated that he didn't love Jim's original design, so my guess is that it died.

Xabier's design is probably the most likely if Dave decided to use an existing design. The forum has been pretty quiet in regard to input (as far as I remember).

That said, a whole new design has some benefits (but can also be risky).

So I'm torn. I think the chance for something based on Rodney's design or Jim's design pretty close to 0%. So I give almost even odds whether the v1.0 car is based on Xabier's design or something completely new (I'm leaning toward something new still though).

So:

Rodney's Design 0%
Something based on Jim's initial design 0%
Xabier based design 40%
Something completely new 60%

[keys2heaven]

I'm going to say that RISD helped shape Xabier's concept as the first body.

I would also re-direct you to this post from last September:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ll=1#post31757

[Oppenheimer]

I like the Xabier concept and think that a top would be easier on one. He sent it to RISD but it didn't get the tremendous feedback on the site. (though about the same number of people actually provided inputs as those who did for Rodney's, his was almost designed by a continued evolution.) Dave told us that he was "talking with Rodney" in past discussions. His is also already in compatable CAD format so...

I'm at 40% Rodneys with signifigant changes that make it fit the molding process etc... but the shape will be obvious

50% Xabier's with RISD input, that means it will also have signifigant changes from what was drawn and shown as the 1/4 scale model. this is by far the most unique body style...

10% I have my head up my *** one of the other's somehow squeeked in Shawn's, Vman's.... I like them both too!

I'm with you on this one. Agree with all your thinking, but I'll tweak the numbers to make them mine:

70% Xabier, with RISD tweaks
25% Rodney
5% Something else (also a big fan of Vman and to a slightly lesser degree Shawns. Also loved the ScottyB, and the Greek entrant was nice too)

[D2W]

The final body shape of the first 818 model has been selected and has been fully digitized.

Thinking about this quote leads me to believe version 1.0 did not start out as a cad model and it is completed. So where does that lead us? After SEMA Dave said Jim's design was being significantly reworked, I'm assuming the front end on the full size mock-up. I don't remember when or where so I don't have proof but I thought Dave said the RISD guys were going to continue to work on Xabier's design to fix some of the problems. Like the massive front openings and the targa bar. Dave also mentioned a fifth design that was never revealed.

Rodney has been on the forum with updates too much for me to think he is working with FFR. I think his design could be used in the future but I don't believe it will be V1.0.

Vman and Shawn Whetstone's designs are good, but I don't think FFR would use one of them without contacting them directly because they already have cad files existing.

So my thought is:

Jim's design reworked based on forum feedback - 40% (good luck)
Xabier's design reworked based on forum feedback - 40% (could be good, a lot of people liked this design during the contest)
Rodneys forum reworked design - 10% (I like it but why would his cad models need to be digitized)
The 5th nonreleased design - 5% (risky, who know's what it looks like - Stratos roadster?)
All other designs - 5% (I just don't see FFR starting from scratch, and having something done already.)

[keys2heaven]

From the horse's mouth regarding Jim's (a.k.a 'the silver') design:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ll=1#post49444

And, if this were the case back on 1/26, there would have been no time for FFR to rework and finalize the body in less than a month.

I'll say it again...Jim's (the silver version) has 0% chance of being the body at this juncture.

FFR, in my opinion, didn't come up with another design that none of us know about. Given what has transpired via these threads, I'm almost positive that the initial body has to be a tweaked version of Xabier's concept.

And, until Rodney started doing his tweaks, Xabier's was still the odds-on favorite by a majority here and Dave as well.

[PhyrraM]

Jim has seemingly already put his foot down on "technical reasons" to do certain things with the design (such as the fender/door interfaces). I'm not going to call him wrong as he knows the limitations and tolerances of the production medium.

It also appears that tech team have a preferance to use OEM type of lights ('01-'06 Camry lights on the first in-house model). If they were not trying to integrate an OEM light, why wouldn't the inhouse model go straight to Hellas, like the GTM? It would be hard to integrate any OEM assembly into something like Rodney's without a total front end redesign.

I'm still at 60% something FFR created. Although I am also in the camp that says that Jim's car would have looked better without anything next to it for comparision. I'm actually wondering if that is the main reason for a "proper unveiling" at a later date.....to let some of the currently popular styles go a bit stale. At that point a freshly restyle/updated "Jim car" - with no contemporary competition - will be percieved to look alot better (hopefully).

Also, for me, @1800 pounds & 227 HP - looks hardly matter.

[keys2heaven]

Sorry, still don't buy it. Just don't think FFR had the time for a "do over."

The timeline just doesn't support this in my opinion.

[D2W]

From the horse's mouth regarding Jim's (a.k.a 'the silver') design:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ll=1#post49444

And, if this were the case back on 1/26, there would have been no time for FFR to rework and finalize the body in less than a month.

I'll say it again...Jim's (the silver version) has 0% chance of being the body at this juncture.

FFR, in my opinion, didn't come up with another design that none of us know about. Given what has transpired via these threads, I'm almost positive that the initial body has to be a tweaked version of Xabier's concept.

And, until Rodney started doing his tweaks, Xabier's was still the odds-on favorite by a majority here and Dave as well.

"The silver car design is dead (this version at least)... " This is the exact quote from Dave in the thread you linked, and I know Dave said they were reworking the design (page 6 of the same link on 11/16). So a new version is wholly possible. I also agree that Xabier's design was very popular and could very well be the one. Everything else is a long shot at this point.

PhyrraM, I'm kind of with you in the fact that I think V1.0 is going to be something FFR created. But with all the work they put into modeling Xabier's design I think it could be Xabier's or Jim's. Who know's maybe FFR shot themselves in the proverbial foot by having the design contest. If not for the exposure to all the great designs we might be all singing the praises of Jim's design right now.

[RM1SepEx]

Rodney's would make a damn nice coupe... as iteration "B" and would "diversify" the purchasing options...

Dave's word's really give us Xabier's and Rodney's as the only front runners meeting his description, inputs from the online community yada yada yada... They are two very viable iterations that look nothing alike, giving buyers options, over the longer term

Rodney had many tweaks done when I visited F5 in December and took the infamous Dave shielding/hiding the models photo! That's when he stated that he had chosen to rework Xabier's with RISD and that he was talking/working with Rodney as well and that he would not build the Nuphone, (spelling) GRM contest winning design... Since then he flushed Jim's design too

I'm wondering how the computer's wind tunnel testing looks for Rodney's vs the other two swoopy coupes... they both look smoother and cleaner than his but the numbers would be very interesting.

The high mileage option could be based on the best of these 3... or Make Rodney's the coupe and then provide a 3rd body option for the high mileage body... (Dave's swatch watch comments, remember... that helps shape this entire discussion)

Remember whatever it is will be tweaked to THEIR tastes (it's his money and their ***es on the line) and manufacturing and assembly concerns are critical.

We need to be happy and proud/honored that they allowed us to participate in such an exciting process for a great groudbreaking product

Dan

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, honored to have been allowed to participate, that is how I feel.

As for which model for which purpose, I'm of the mind that each for each. No reason Rodney can't be offered as Roadster, Coupe and Targa. Same with Xabier (well, not so much Roadster in strict sense). Point is they could just make each design, and offer each one in multiple forms, without, seemingly, making things too complicated or costly to manufacture.

Whichever one ends up as the slipperiest Coupe, could be the default basis for the MPG version. Though again, no reason someone couldn't build their MPG commuter off the second slipperiest, and do it as a Targa, if they didn't mind losing a few MPG for their desired look.

Which design for which purpose? Each-for-Each. Swatch-Watch.

[apexanimal]

yeah i think xabier or in-house to be the roadster...

still hoping they run w/ rodney's for the track monster...

[RM1SepEx]

excellent summary Oppenheimer!
I agree, no reason not to task any body shape into any purpose...
Each has it's pros/cons why not compromise MPG a bit if you prefer a less slippery shape for example...

[Silvertop]

excellent summary Oppenheimer!
I agree, no reason not to task any body shape into any purpose...
Each has it's pros/cons why not compromise MPG a bit if you prefer a less slippery shape for example...

Must also agree!!

[Dave Smith]

I honestly think that Jim is sandbagging when it comes to performance numbers. I am not particularly concerned about hook-up because the weight distribution and fender area help there. The shape is never going to make everyone happy, but now that the company is under unified leadership/ownership I feel it is such a capable platform that it would be a major misseed opportunity to not develop 2-3 body shapes and purposed vehicles on this chassis layout. With that in mind it brings the 818 into much better focus as we are at the headwaters of a long product run that can easily (at least quiockly based on short lead times of CAD body shaping to manufacturing) accomodate multi-purposes... My dream of a swatch watch car platform. The website is coming along but the 818 details are still not as tight as I'd like. Working on it.

[BipDBo]

Dave, I know that you have made a big deal over HOF design, but that won't define the car. The car will be defined by and be successful because of its simplicity, price and performnce. With its low weight, rearward weight distribution and power potential of the boxer engine, it's got phyisics on its side, so the performance will be there.

Aesthetically, I wouldn't care if the body were made to look like a rusty Gremlin, but most customers buying the roadster version will care quite a bit about styling, and they should. The track version, IMO has different requirements. It should be defined more by function than form. The body should cut through the air with low resistance, provide downforce, and give proper ventilation to all of the hot bits (with upgrades). It also needs to be lightweight, inexpensive and tough. Styling should follow behind those design parameters.

[Dave Smith]

Agreed on all but I have learned firsthand that the FIRST thing that draws someone to a car is looks and the 818's success depends on looks to a very large degree. The Lancia Stratos is permanently ectched in my brain because the LOOKS inspired my dreams of driving one. I have never dreamed of driving a rusty gremlin (although I did go for a ride on the hood of one in high school, but that's another story). As my old Boss from California loved quoting "you gotta have the steak and you gotta have the sizzle".

[Oppenheimer]

Agreed on all but I have learned firsthand that the FIRST thing that draws someone ....is looks and ...success depends on looks to a very large degree.

Yes. You could just as easily be talking about finding your Significant Other. Looks get your attention, then its the rest that makes you realize, this is the one.