Perfomance Expectations

[Movieman]

Yes. You could just as easily be talking about finding your Significant Other. Looks get your attention, then its the rest that makes you realize, this is the one.

Well said or as I say it: The flashy brass on the street may grab your eye but it's the platnium at home that you stay with..
Said by a guy twice divorced but the saying still holds true.

As to the talk about looking like A Stratos I doubt it as there are kits that exist for that.
Stratos is one of the sexiest cars I ever saw but unless your under 5'8" and 160 don't try to get in one.
Tiny inside..

[RM1SepEx]

So my question for Dave is are you having a good time watching us disect your words and attempt to guess what we will see? It seems like we can't help ourselves!

[16g-95gsx]

Yes. You could just as easily be talking about finding your Significant Other. Looks get your attention, then its the rest that makes you realize, this is the one.

Subconsciously I think this is why guys are so into cars, it creates the same emotions in us. You need visual attraction to draw you in, and then the performance that you expected to keep you there . If you sit and think about how we approach both women and cars you'll find endless amounts of similarities between our choice in cars and our choice in women.

[16g-95gsx]

If you had that much power in the 2 liter, it would be coming at very high revs. Since you wont have the jolt off the line, asuming you want the clutch to last, it may be able to keep a better traction than a 2.5 with that much torque. That sure would be a laggy setup. Lag can be fun if you know how to drive with it.

Not necessarily calling you out, but comments like this always make me chuckle to myself. The torque production of a 2.0L can be extreme depending on turbo selection. Since most guys would run stockish turbos I bet you'll find most complaining about the abundance of torque causing issues rather than the lack of it. I know what you're getting at, but there is a large difference when stroke and turbo's are considered into the equation, as not all 2.0L's are the same and most stockish setups are tailored to low end grunt rather than top end power. Combine this with the fact that the 818 would have a better flowing exhaust and intake right off the bat, and you already have yourself significant torque in an otherwise "stock" 818. Well over 200ftlbs at the tires in what will likely be a total 2000lb with driver car. That's torque to weight equivalents comparable to most modern domestic performance cars nowadays.

[wantscobra]

I "expect" that it will "perform" vastly better than basically any other car that you can get on the road - new - for 15k.

After all, that generally is what F5 does.

That is all.

[bbjones121]

Sorry, my comment was not understood correctly. Of course it is dependent on turbo. It is the physics of the things. Unless you are able to defy physics, the more power you push on a smaller displacement, the faster up the power curve that will come. The larger the displacement, the same power can be achieved lower on the power curve. It is very simple, more power = larger turbo (ie, one able to move more air), larger turbo = more mass to spin, more mass to spin = greater volume of exhaust needed, larger displacement = greater volume of exhaust gases. Just rearange these equations as necessary to understand my comment.

Not necessarily calling you out, but comments like this always make me chuckle to myself. The torque production of a 2.0L can be extreme depending on turbo selection. Since most guys would run stockish turbos I bet you'll find most complaining about the abundance of torque causing issues rather than the lack of it. I know what you're getting at, but there is a large difference when stroke and turbo's are considered into the equation, as not all 2.0L's are the same and most stockish setups are tailored to low end grunt rather than top end power. Combine this with the fact that the 818 would have a better flowing exhaust and intake right off the bat, and you already have yourself significant torque in an otherwise "stock" 818. Well over 200ftlbs at the tires in what will likely be a total 2000lb with driver car. That's torque to weight equivalents comparable to most modern domestic performance cars nowadays.

[skullandbones]

Good reading on the torque, boost, displacement, etc. factors discussion is "Maximum Boost". It's the bible of turbines and gives excellent formulae to help decide what combination will work for your application. I'm not an engineer but do get into the physics of this phenomenal technology.

I have my son scouting out a WRX deal on the internet. He searches, buys, and flips cars. So he should be able to find one. He had never heard of what I am looking for but now he's getting up to speed. I want to own and drive one to see how it really feels compared to what I have experienced. The only road block I see so far is that those for sale are usually pretty pricy.

I have been listening to the discussions and want some real life comparison to go with what I have heard about the WRX's like, in one thread they said, "the spec cars won't stay up with the WRXs". I got to drive a Farrari 360 Modena (2003) this weekend for about 45 minutes. That's the first exotic I have ever driven and it was pretty impressive. It's also the first mid engine car I have ever been in. If the 818 performs like the 360, I would be more than happy (accleration and speed). I would expect it to perform better in a track environment (lighter and more road feel). WEK.

[RM1SepEx]

Ferrari 360

400hp, 275 torque, 3064 lbs
7.7 lbs/hp 11.1 lbs/ft lb

if you use 2006+ WRX with 2.5L

230 HP, 235 Torque, 1800 lbs

7.8 lbs/hp, 7.7 lbs/ft lb

Couldn't ask for a better comparison/benchmark!

It's a given F5 does a great job with chassis handling etc, The car will be well balanced and stiff with coil overs and Konis

The 818 will have a better torque curve (area under HP curve is directly related to acceleration capability) and it has both a lower torque curve and more torque per lbs.

The 818, properly setup should outperform a 360....

and I couldn't agree more :-) that would be break that permanent smile off my face performance!

and I'll assume better downtube, exhaust and intake to get more than the stock 230 HP, I expect 250-260 at the engine

[bobzdar]

I don't know. With the gtm, the factory suspension geometry needed work for heavy track use, including kit modofication. The 360, well, doesn't. If you get the 818 set up properly (and that may mean modification from stock) it should hang with the 360 and beat it on tighter tracks, but will lose out on higher speed tracks due to its lack of power (power/weight starts to fall apart when aero drag takes over and pure hp wins). The whole torque argument is garbage as if it mattered, an f1 engine would get spanked by a tractor engine. Area under the hp curve is a different story, and if you look at the hp curve of a 360, it's pretty meaty up top where the engine stays in track use (6000-8700rpm).

[Thorne]

I'm a Subaru Pro tuner and My personal subarus have ran 12.3 @ 335awhp full weight WRX and later made 370awhp on a EJ22E(NA MOTOR+18g) . My current setup is a EJ257 swapped into a RWD Impreza L wagon. It's scary to drive I don't have enough tire.

I'm debating on building this or having the shop I tune at part time build me basicly a super gokart. Target weights are about the same . I've crunched the numbers and if we can hook 400rwhp will run 9's in the 1/4. I've got doubts about front diff holding that much power though. I've broke 1 R160 so far in rwd mode running 16psi. I also broke one fwd diff. I'm aiming for super car level performance though. on low boost my full weight 97 wagon with a ej257+18g beat a 2011 gt5.0 with a stage 1 tune. BADLY. But I've not dynoed the car on rwd or on the 2.5l.

[Oppenheimer]

I don't know. With the gtm, the factory suspension geometry needed work for heavy track use, including kit modofication. The 360, well, doesn't. If you get the 818 set up properly (and that may mean modification from stock) it should hang with the 360 and beat it on tighter tracks, but will lose out on higher speed tracks due to its lack of power (power/weight starts to fall apart when aero drag takes over and pure hp wins). The whole torque argument is garbage as if it mattered, an f1 engine would get spanked by a tractor engine. Area under the hp curve is a different story, and if you look at the hp curve of a 360, it's pretty meaty up top where the engine stays in track use (6000-8700rpm).

FFR is planning a track version, more suspension, brakes, etc. No reason you couldn't fit those to your street 818 (I'm sure that will be a popular option). But I think RM1SepEx was talking about road going performance, not so much track. There, torque does matter. We're not talking just about street racing, but seat of pants enjoyment of the car.

But if you want to talk track, and HP and top speed, for the a fraction of the cost of the F-car, you could do a few mods to your 2.5 STi motor and be well north of the F-car's power. No reason you couldn't break those numbers even with a Plane-Jane WRX powerplant.

Who of us if we had unlimited budgets would not have a fleet of supercars in our stable. Might we still build an 818? Perhaps, but likely for some different reasons. Is the F-car a super fun car? Would we all mind having one? With the 818 we don't have to dream, its within reach. That it can even be discussed in the same breath as these exotics is mind-blowing. That it will be able to eclipse these mega-cars in many performance categories is beyond mind-blowing.

[RM1SepEx]

Correct, we are talking performance as a whole, not heads up at Laguna Seca etc... It should be able to out accelerate, turn as well and brake better. F5 will work the suspension to make it very capable and competitive and updates must be expected over time.. speaking to the GTM issues. As far as overall top speed, yup just HP vs Aero drag but who really can use it unless you track it at a really large track or have access to the salt flats or a land speed record location?

A high strung engine works fine on a track but isn't as near satisfying on the street...

I see street use, some autocross and perhaps a track day here and there, I'm not building a race car

[skullandbones]

I do believe the vehicle is limited by it's environment. Not many of us will be driving a FFR project at it's optimal potential unless you are driving a spec racer or a coupe in one of the 25 hr endurance races. I better not forget the drag racers. I suppose you can specialize and make one a "straight line rocket". But if you are driving on the street, you will experience snapshots of performance. I think the 818 can be set up to meet that need without too much effort. It will help me cross one more thing off my auto bucket list: owning a turbo powered hot rod!!! WEK.

Note: I just brought the 360 thing up to use as a benchmark. Now that I have done it, I can say I drove it but as a dream car, probably not in my case.

[RM1SepEx]

You have some very serious toys! Even a 300 HP STI powered 818 would be your lowest powered toy!

[bobzdar]

Correct, we are talking performance as a whole, not heads up at Laguna Seca etc... It should be able to out accelerate, turn as well and brake better. F5 will work the suspension to make it very capable and competitive and updates must be expected over time.. speaking to the GTM issues. As far as overall top speed, yup just HP vs Aero drag but who really can use it unless you track it at a really large track or have access to the salt flats or a land speed record location?

A high strung engine works fine on a track but isn't as near satisfying on the street...

I see street use, some autocross and perhaps a track day here and there, I'm not building a race car

Have you ever driven a 'high strung' Ferrari on the street? I can assure you that it's plenty satisfying, more so than the muscle cars I've owned. It's not like 265ftlbs of torque is anemic, that's more than your typical 4 door sedan in a lighter package. If you want to go really fast, there's this clutch thing you press in and a metal stick you move that puts you right onto the sweet spot of the power band where torque is irrelevant.

I want to build my own car, which is why I'm interested in the 818, but realistically the $15k build will not put you even close to anything post 348 on the Ferrari scale. A $20k wrx based kit build will probably get you close to a 355 without the refinement or basic creature comforts of one. At 25k to 30k I think you can realistically expect to compete on performance and maybe build quality with a 355 or 360. Or you can do like I did and spend a few grand more and just get the Ferrari. Where the 818 destroys the Ferrari is on maintenance costs.

[Oppenheimer]

Yes, you do get something for all that extra Ferrari $$$. No one is saying those cars don't offer something that is worth the price of entry (which is more than just build quality and creature comfort, the sound, the feel, the visceral experience - the 818 won't match all that).

But the discussion was about 'keeping up with' the Ferrari (on the street). RM1SepEx pointed out how the two cars have similar power/weight ratios, with the 818 having a significantly better torque/weight ratio. Though most 818's will probalby not be built with stock engines, even a few cost effective mods will bring those numbers up quite a bit.

You pointed out how the F-car has more HP, so it will have better top speed (aero vs hp being the deciding factors). That is ture, top speed to the Ferrari for all but the most potent 818 builds.

But I think its hard to argue against your (probable) typical 818 build (WRX based, a few minor hp mods) having little trouble hanging with the F-car in question in most street (and even most track day) environments.

With the 818 you get Ferrari like performance, at an economy car like price

With the Ferrari you get Ferrari performance, Ferrari panache, Ferrari cachet, Ferrari visceral experience, Ferrari envy, Ferrari supermodel wants to go for a ride, at the Ferrari price

But you DO GET the Ferrari performance with the 818.

[shinn497]

Paint it red, put in a leather interior, Ferrari badges and people will THINK it is a ferrari.

Point is if you want panache and good looks it will be possible. Most people aren't supercar enthusiasts.

[bobzdar]

Yes, you do get something for all that extra Ferrari $$$. No one is saying those cars don't offer something that is worth the price of entry (which is more than just build quality and creature comfort, the sound, the feel, the visceral experience - the 818 won't match all that).

But the discussion was about 'keeping up with' the Ferrari (on the street). RM1SepEx pointed out how the two cars have similar power/weight ratios, with the 818 having a significantly better torque/weight ratio. Though most 818's will probalby not be built with stock engines, even a few cost effective mods will bring those numbers up quite a bit.

You pointed out how the F-car has more HP, so it will have better top speed (aero vs hp being the deciding factors). That is ture, top speed to the Ferrari for all but the most potent 818 builds.

But I think its hard to argue against your (probable) typical 818 build (WRX based, a few minor hp mods) having little trouble hanging with the F-car in question in most street (and even most track day) environments.

With the 818 you get Ferrari like performance, at an economy car like price

With the Ferrari you get Ferrari performance, Ferrari panache, Ferrari cachet, Ferrari visceral experience, Ferrari envy, Ferrari supermodel wants to go for a ride, at the Ferrari price

But you DO GET the Ferrari performance with the 818.

Lets forget the street portion, because the fact of the matter is that you cannot safely explore the limits of these cars on the street. I messed around a bit when I first got my 355 on the backroads near my house and looked at the speedo and was at 3x the posted limit. I was not pushing it hard (no tire slippage or anything). After I tried to find the limits of a 911 on the street once and it ended badly, I won't go there and quickly parked the 355 in the garage until I cooled off. Suffice to say either car will be plenty fast to get you in trouble with the law or killed pretty quickly on the street, so there's no point comparing them there. I would venture that the Ferrari would be a lot more comfortable anyway, with it's climate control, power windows etc.

Track wise, I will go out on a limb and say a box stock 818 will not handle as well as a box stock 348 and up Ferrari. The GTM had suspension geometry issues (not sure if the kit is updated now?) that were worked through by some people racing them, the type 65 coupes with IRS did as well and I have a feeling we will see the same with the 818, at least initially. A stock wrx build will probably be in the 20k range and I think this is the minimum you will want to start with if you are trying to keep up with or beat a 90's up Ferrari - or say a C5 vette. Add in around 2 grand for rims and sticky tires - Most Ferraris will be on Michelin Pilot super sports on the street and better on the track. Add another 2 grand for adjustable Bilsteins (355 up have them stock). You're at 24k without any engine mods. Figure a grand to get the power up to around 250hp and you're at 25k. At this point, you will need a full track day or two to get the suspension set up before I think you can be fully ready to take on the 355 or C5 barring having to do any major modifications (cut and weld mounting points, etc.). That's not exactly cheap...considering you can get a 2005 C5 vette with the z51 track package for the same price.

I want to be clear in that I love the idea of the 818 and am considering one, but people need to be realistic in what the performance actually will be and at what cost. I've been down the road before and matching what you thought the car would be on paper to what it actually is always takes more than you expect, so my 25k may be low...

[skullandbones]

I'm not sure where the WRX/STI setups like to operate (rpm wise). I had to stay under 6500 rpms in my F car ride (total $250 great deal) or pay a premium of $2500 to rev to 8000+. Needless to say, I did stay in the sub 6500 rpm range (and no rev limiters but good LED progressives). The assistant kept saying that the peak hp was in the 5500 to 6500 rpm range. I didn't believe that. He went higher while driving to the staging area. While going around a "roundabout" he punched it to at least 8000 rpm and the roar of the engine and the "visceral feeling" was very evident. So just approaching that sort of performance in a sub 20K car has to be mind blowing. I can't see myself in a GTM project for the same arguments as for owning an exotic but I can see myself in an 818 project without even a second thought! WEK.

[bobzdar]

He was way off, peak HP is at 8500rpm for the 360. The engine doesn't really come fully on song until around 6k...I think the wrx redlines around 6k and the sti around 7000? Rev limit on the 360 is 8750rpm. They will be very different driving experiences in terms of power delivery.

[skullandbones]

So what would get the WRX/STI into that territory? I know you can take a stock 5.0 that operates comfortably in the 5000 to 6200 (peak hp) range without floating the valves and add a performance pkg (heads, springs, roller lifters, cam, etc) for about 3k and get usable power in the +6500 range. What would it take to do the same for the WRX/STI? I think 6500 to 7500 would be pretty impressive myself. The exhaust note and visceral feelings would be added features, too. Thanks, WEK.

[StatGSR]

^ the jdm sti engine already revs to 8000 stock....

[spaceywilly]

He was way off, peak HP is at 8500rpm for the 360. The engine doesn't really come fully on song until around 6k...I think the wrx redlines around 6k and the sti around 7000? Rev limit on the 360 is 8750rpm. They will be very different driving experiences in terms of power delivery.

You are correct for the current WRX and STI, but there are WRX engines that rev to 8500RPMs. The EJ207 (JDM STI engine) revs to 8500 and the V7/V8 edition can be imported relatively cheaply. They also have a twin scroll turbo, AVCS, and semi-closed deck block. I think it would be an awesome engine in the 818. The 2.0L WRX engine (02-05) and 2.5L STI USDM engine revs to 7000. The 2.5L WRX (06+) engine revs to 6500.

[Evan78]

I think the wrx redlines around 6k and the sti around 7000?

7000rpm redline - US WRX 2002-2005 (2.0L EJ205 engine)
6500rpm redline - US WRX 2006+ (2.5L) (EJ255 engine I believe)
8000rpm redline - JDM STi (2.0L EJ207) not sure about years

I think US STi has a 7000rpm redline.

rev limited is a few hundred over redline

[skullandbones]

So is that maxed (large valves, cam, etc) out or does the aftermarket supply performance packages like I referred to for the 5.0? I will try to get up to speed to self educate but in the meantime help me out here. It may be that I am comparing apples to oranges since there is a turbo involved but it would be nice to know how much one has to invest to get say 50 hp increase. I don't hear as much discussion on real specific combinations as I do on the other forums. One question I have is is the tuning aspect more important than the bolt ons and machining to get the power? If that is the case, can you drive a highly tuned one on the street or do you have to switch tunes for the specific use? I hope that isn't the case. It would be like having a cam that lopes so hard you can't idle at a traffic light. Thanks, WEK.

[RM1SepEx]

Wow talk about getting a new tangent going... I'm with Oppenheimer

I was just trying to say that with acceleration being directly linked to the area under the HP curve, and mass, assuming a great stiff chassis, Koni coil overs, good geometry, etc... the raw numbers look damn good, not trying to say that it would be "better" than a Ferrari, just perform as well, in general terms

2005 Ferrari 360 = race car for the street $150,000 ?
818 = race car for the street $15,000 ?

And it will be done under budget of $15,000 with a 60,000 mile or less 2006+ WRX drive train

Mechanical Eng., Married 28 years, beautiful wife, 88 Pistons , don't need to be chased by models

[spaceywilly]

So is that maxed (large valves, cam, etc) out or does the aftermarket supply performance packages like I referred to for the 5.0? I will try to get up to speed to self educate but in the meantime help me out here. It may be that I am comparing apples to oranges since there is a turbo involved but it would be nice to know how much one has to invest to get say 50 hp increase. I don't hear as much discussion on real specific combinations as I do on the other forums. One question I have is is the tuning aspect more important than the bolt ons and machining to get the power? If that is the case, can you drive a highly tuned one on the street or do you have to switch tunes for the specific use? I hope that isn't the case. It would be like having a cam that lopes so hard you can't idle at a traffic light. Thanks, WEK.

My advice is to poke around on NASIOC, there's a lot of noise on there but also lots of useful threads about these exact kinds of questions. I know someone was running 600hp and 28psi with a 9000RPM redline on an EJ207 but I'm not sure what kind of mods it took to get there, or if it was driveable on the street (I'm guessing not). However even in stock form it will have better lb/hp than the 360 if the 818 meets it's 1800lb target weight, and with AVCS and the twin scroll turbo it will definitely be streetable. Subaru engines in general are easy to tune and get a lot of hp out of without spending much at all, and you can generally find lots of guidance out there for whatever you want to do (just be careful who you listen to).

[bbjones121]

So is that maxed (large valves, cam, etc) out or does the aftermarket supply performance packages like I referred to for the 5.0? I will try to get up to speed to self educate but in the meantime help me out here. It may be that I am comparing apples to oranges since there is a turbo involved but it would be nice to know how much one has to invest to get say 50 hp increase. I don't hear as much discussion on real specific combinations as I do on the other forums. One question I have is is the tuning aspect more important than the bolt ons and machining to get the power? If that is the case, can you drive a highly tuned one on the street or do you have to switch tunes for the specific use? I hope that isn't the case. It would be like having a cam that lopes so hard you can't idle at a traffic light. Thanks, WEK.

I have a 2.5l turbo. This is best cost/hp upgrade order in my opinion. Obviously some of these will be my best estimate. Understand I am at a mile high elevation and giving numbers from the most conservative dynomameter, so numbers will sound low (20% I would guess).
Stock (baseline cost) - 230hp(rated), 170(awhp)
Cobb AP ($500 used) etune only - 190(awhp) this expensive, but needed for future mods
High flow DP ($200-300 used) etune only - 214(awhp)
High flow UP ($60-$80) etune only. - 220(awhp)
Cold air intake ($100) etune only. - 230(awhp)
Cat back exhaust ($400) - 240(awhp)
Larger intercooler ($400) - 245(awhp)

Now i am going to jump a few because i cant guess what each would do separately.

18g turbo($600-800 used,), larger injectors ($300), professional tune ($300) - 305(awhp)
Extra tune for e85 fuel ($50) - 325(awhp)

Then warm your engine up properly and go easy on your clutch and it should last for a long time.

Almost double the power for $3k to $4k easily.
Prices on my legacy are higher than you would expect for a wrx.

[Evan78]

My numbers are stock OEM. Not a lot of people get into upgraded valvetrain and I never have either. I don't think the bang for the buck is very good in most situations. Usually people are running turbos that are running out of steam toward redline, especially all the stock turbos, so there's usually not a good case for raising the rev limit.

You mind find a couple forums on nasioc helpful for examples - Proven Power Bragging and Built Motor Discussion.

Cost of 50hp increase depends on existing setup. On a stock Subaru, getting rid of the factory turbo back exhaust and a tune results in 40-70whp increase for $1500 or less. After that, the next steps are usually a bigger turbo, injectors, fuel pump, perhaps intercooler (and tune of course). Power increase determined by turbo size.

BBJones121 has accurate approximate costs.

Spaceywilly raises a good point - the JDM EJ207 motor is a different beast and does a much better job at making power at the top end.

[bobzdar]

Your 15k or under build will not have konis, good tires or anything else unless you get the wrx for free.

It's fairly simple math.

818 kit is 9k
Wheel and tire package is 2k
Bilstein wrx setup is 2k

You're at 13k without even having a donor yet. A 2002-2006 wrx runs around 8k these days with under 100k miles - that's 21k. Add 50hp worth of tuning and exhaust and you're at $23,500 (using above quotes). That's with around 250hp and a good suspension and good tires. And nothing else.

I think you'll see 15k builds, but they'll be bare bones imprezza builds which won't have supercar performance (though quick for sure). I think it sounds great to say you're going to be as fast as a 150k ferrari for 15k, but there's no way in hell. Besides, 150k buys you a 430 these days, a 360 is less than half that.

[305mouse]

I'm sorry Evan but a turboback and a tune won't get you 70whp and should cost under $1500. You might get 40 whp if you're lucky. What you will get is a much smoother curve. I picked up a catted DP and cat back for $600 and a custom tune will probably cost between $300-450.

Bob, koni's come with the kit

[shinn497]

Yeah I'm in the camp that parts alone we can get a 15k build with konis and wrx running gear. This is what dave has promised all along.

there are hidden costs, paint, tools, things you just want to put on. I expect the average cost to run somewhere around 20k for these.

I think 400WHP is the magic number for supercar performance that is enzo area. I think at that kind of WHP you would be pushing low/sub threes.

The thing is that is doable. It would might end up with a kit price of 35-40 k but that is a WHOLE lot more feasible than 150~200k. This is why I find the 818 so exciting. It has humble beginnings but the possibilities are endless.

I did some reasearch and I really want an EJ207. People that have it love it. It is apparently a smooth high revving engine with a fast spooling turbo depending on the model year.

Btw the breakdown is as such:

V7 - forged internals
V8 - twin scroll
V8 spec C - twin scroll plus forged internals

Those are the most highly recommended. There are some aftermarket turbos by litchfield, tomei, and some others. With these the upper limit is I beleive 500BHP on pump. A lot of people have the former on NASIOC.

My plan is to build the basic build pretty it up and either engine swap the tuned ej207 in later and run E85. Can you say rare and exotic? Yes please.

[Evan78]

I'm sorry Evan but a turboback and a tune won't get you 70whp and should cost under $1500. You might get 40 whp if you're lucky. What you will get is a much smoother curve. I picked up a catted DP and cat back for $600 and a custom tune will probably cost between $300-450.

Bob, koni's come with the kit

I said $1500 or less. Depends on brand, used/new, etc. Tuner costs vary quite a bit, dyno time is not cheap if you go that route, etc. Many elect for AccessPort for engine management instead of open source, that's another cost that goes into the tune.

I don't know what you're basing 40whp on, but every turbo Subaru setup (2L, 2.5L, TD04, VF39, VF52, etc, etc) should get 40whp MINIMUM from a turboback and tune.

In my experience, the 2.0L WRX will put down around 170whp in stock form. Turboback and tune usually ends up around 210-225whp.

STi's seem to dyno around 225whp from the factory and approach 300whp with turboback and tune.

Torque gains are usually bigger than the HP on the 2.5L engines, especially with the VF turbos (as opposed to the TD04). My dyno tuned 2005 Legacy has a turboback and larger top mount intercooler with stock turbo and put down 260whp/320wtq on a Mustang dyno. I don't have a baseline since it was already modified when I bought it.

[bbjones121]

...every turbo Subaru setup (2L, 2.5L, TD04, VF39, VF52, etc, etc) should get 40whp MINIMUM from a turboback and tune.

Definitely agree with you here Evan. The downpipe, mufflers, and tune are big hold ups. The stock tune alone is very conservative.

[bbjones121]

What you will get is a much smoother curve.

I am sorry, but the smoothest curve you will ever get is from the factory tune. Do you really think Subaru only spent $300-450 and paid a local shop to put the factory tune job on their cars? Absolutely not, they probably had several engineers, experts in everything to do with Subarus spend days and maybe weeks perfecting it.

[Xusia]

You are forgetting that the OEMs have to consider emissions and other such things. Yes, they have experts... who's hands are tied. An after market tuner doesn't have those same restrictions and often achieves better results for that reason.

[autostang]

I am sorry, but the smoothest curve you will ever get is from the factory tune. Do you really think Subaru only spent $300-450 and paid a local shop to put the factory tune job on their cars? Absolutely not, they probably had several engineers, experts in everything to do with Subarus spend days and maybe weeks perfecting it.

I have to disagree with this. I have an 09 wrx and when it was stock 3rd gear would feel like the engine was being hit by small surges all the way through the power band when the pedal was to the floor. Add a tune and this completely smoothed out and felt like one wave of power. Even my mom commented on the difference and she is by no means a car person. Before getting this car I would have completely agreed with you and it shocked me a bit.

I am a bit curious to see if the 818 uses the stock downpipe or a fabricated piece and how that will effect performance.

[bbjones121]

I guess i am more optimistic about Subaru engineers than some. Bad gas, turbo wastegate friction, brake pads, clutch issues, and many other factors could be involved with surges. Your ECU map may have been corrupted. Nobody can tell what the curve actually looks unless you conect a computer and analize the cars parameters.

[bromikl]

What is the theoretical limit on tire-to-road friction? In an 1800 lb car, 200Hp will spin two tires faster than you can sneeze - without dropping the clutch. Sure, your engine could make 450Hp. But one day you'll be in 5th gear at 60 MPH and you gun it. Next thing you know you're fishtailing and rolling your $20,000 toy. In the real world, there's only two places to use more than 250Hp in an 818: The drag strip, and the dyno.

[Niburu]

What is the theoretical limit on tire-to-road friction? In an 1800 lb car, 200Hp will spin two tires faster than you can sneeze - without dropping the clutch. Sure, your engine could make 450Hp. But one day you'll be in 5th gear at 60 MPH and you gun it. Next thing you know you're fishtailing and rolling your $20,000 toy. In the real world, there's only two places to use more than 250Hp in an 818: The drag strip, and the dyno.

THIS is why I'm seriously considering doing a built 2.5 NA version, plus then I don't have to worry about aall the turbo stuff.
As a side note it's not hp that spins the tire, but rather torque - I've owned RX-7's so I know what a lack of it feels like with plenty of HP.