Major set back

[Olli]

I was on the home stretch to finally finish the HR in time for state title inspection this May and then to go to the Open House in June. Last week I fired up the engine only to find out that it has a major rear main seal leak. The engine is based on a '72 302 block , 2 piece rear main seal. Changed the seal. Still leaks. Engine builder then admits to me that it leaked on the dyno and that he had changed the seal before giving it to me. Now I have to pull the engine /trans and ship the engine to a different shop to have the engine torn down completely and have the block machined for a 1 piece seal. Then reassembled and dynoed. So, not only will this cost me a lot of time but approx. $2-3K.

I can not now trust the original engine builder....this was the "Team Jenny" based engine. I paid a good sum for the shortblock at a charity (CF) event and then to have it built to final form by the builder. It was built by someone who has a good reputation as well. The builder said that he would fix it. But that wasn't his first response.

Olli

[NicksPapaw]

That just sucks Olli. A person really has only one thing that is truely his, and that is his reputation. Looks like your builder just cashed his in for a few bucks. Karma is a *****. He will get his one day.

[Arrowhead]

Dang that sucks Olli! I hope you can get it together and at least enjoy crusin this summer.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Man than sucks Olli. Sorry to hear that it's blowing up your plans.

Yes, I remember EXACTLY who that engine came from and the circumstances. Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence to realize that it was sent out the door without verifying that a known problem (leak) was fixed...

Good luck,
Jeff

[WIS89]

Olli-

I am sorry to hear of your bad news. I hope it is able to be fixed quickly, and you are able to get it all back together ASAP!

I am truly sorry. Saying I feel your pain doesn't mitigate your pain, but I can certainly empathize. Best of luck!

Regards,

Steve

[ehansen007]

Sorry to hear it man. I've heard so many stories of bad engines it's starting to worry me about the industry. I think what's becoming the mantra is that "if you don't see it running (or in this case running and not leaking) never assume it does." I hope you're able to get it rectified and maybe get some restitution from the guy who built it. Good luck.

[Jeff Collins]

Wow Olli I am sorry to hear about that. I remember that deal, I came in third in the bidding.
I hope you guys get it worked out.

[britpit]

Two-piece seals have been used successfully forever (it seems). Why is it leaking?? Something wrong with the block and rear main bearing cap?
Wayne P.

[riptide motorsport]

Bummer..throw a stock one from cragslist for $3OO.00 in for now.

[Olli]

Wayne P. I agree with you that something isn't right and throwing another seal in isn't the answer. Hence my decision to have it torn down, inspected (by an impartial party) and machined for a 1 piece seal.

The 2 piece SBF seal actually doesn't have the best reputation.

My purpose of the thread is to let you guys know that I am having a major set back, as I keep getting asked "...when will you be done?". I have no intention of naming the builder as this thread is not intended to be a negative rant about the builder. The fact that I mentioned that it was the "Team Jenny engine" was enough. It's done. The builder did, eventually, offer to do whatever it would take to fix it. But I just don't want to go there. To me, trust means a lot. And he lost my trust. That is my choice. It is now up to me to overcome this opportunity and move on.

Olli

[Bob Cowan]

The RMS often gets blamed for leaks, when in actuality, as long as it's installed properly they last a long time.

Before you pull the engine, do one simple thing. Take the car to a shop, and have them connect to a smoke machine. They'll inject a petroleum based smoke into the engine. Where the smoke comes out is where the oil comes out.

I was sure I had a RMS leak or a pan leak. I replaced them both a couple of times. I was sure I was making a mistake somewhere. I had a shop use the smoke machine, and found a leak at the fuel pump block off plate in the front cover. That was a lot of wasted work and money. But it was a good learning experience.

[Olli]

Bob, I know of the use of a smoke machine. Good suggestion. It is an effective tool. I had it used to trouble shoot an intake manifold leak on an Expedition I had a few years ago. But the engine is coming out now.

Who knows? Maybe I will get lucky and discover once the engine is out that the cam plug wasn't fully seated.

Olli

[WIS89]

Bob-

Do most shops have a smoke machine? Can I perform the same thing at home? If so, how would I do this? Forgive the thread hijack, but my son's '88 Jeep Cherokee (famous for rear main seal leaks!!) has a similar problem, and three seals later (Dad helping on the third), we still appear to have a rear main seal leak. I would welcome a different approach, and if this is it, I would love to give it a run. Feel free to hit me in a PM if you prefer, so we don't completely hijack Olli's thread, especially since I feel so badly for him!!

Thanks for your feedback and help!

Regards,

Steve

[AJ Roadster NJ]

Olli, on the advice of one of the books (maybe Tom Monroe), I used a small chisel to put a ding in the block just above the new cam plug, right at the edge of the cylinder you pushed the plug down into, after it was in. With the little tab of iron now blocking it's path, it can never come out.

AJ

[Chuck]

Olli,

I sure hope you get it figured out. Very sorry for the set back but you'll get er-done.

Chuck

[Bob Cowan]

Bob-

Do most shops have a smoke machine? Can I perform the same thing at home? If so, how would I do this? Forgive the thread hijack, but my son's '88 Jeep Cherokee (famous for rear main seal leaks!!) has a similar problem, and three seals later (Dad helping on the third), we still appear to have a rear main seal leak. I would welcome a different approach, and if this is it, I would love to give it a run. Feel free to hit me in a PM if you prefer, so we don't completely hijack Olli's thread, especially since I feel so badly for him!!

Thanks for your feedback and help!

Regards,

Steve

It's a really simple test. The machine comes with a number of adapters, and it usually plugs in to the dipstick. You just run the machine for a few minutes and look for leaks. If the engine is tight it will build up pressure.

Semes like a pretty standard piece of equipment for most shops around my area. It's simple enough that anybody can do it. But getting ahold of a machine might be difficult. I'd call around to rental yards and see what you find.

[WIS89]

It's a really simple test. The machine comes with a number of adapters, and it usually plugs in to the dipstick. You just run the machine for a few minutes and look for leaks. If the engine is tight it will build up pressure.

Semes like a pretty standard piece of equipment for most shops around my area. It's simple enough that anybody can do it. But getting ahold of a machine might be difficult. I'd call around to rental yards and see what you find.

Bob-

Sounds like an excellent plan. I will call around and see what I can discover. He would be delighted to come home from school to discover that I had licked this problem for good!! Many thanks good Sir!!

Regards,

Steve

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

Really sorry to hear about this Olli. I come onto the '33 forum occasionally with only ONE purpose: to see if you posted anything about your '33.

Steve

[btrush]

Sorry to hear about your trouble. I hope you will be back on your way to n.j. titling and registration soon.

Terry

[4wheelspin]

Olli, sorry for the bad news. Keep going at it it will pay off when you will be driving it.

There is hundreds of engine builders out there that are willing to take your money.
But there is only a hand full that stand behind there product.

Spiro

[Olli]

Time for an update. It has been about 4 weeks. The engine was shipped out to Keith Craft Performance Engines in Arkansas. I had Keith Craft build an engine for my FFR Mark I years ago and was very happy with their work. They inspected the rear main area and confirmed that there was an issue. The engine was torn down to the bare block, the seal area was machined for a 1 piece seal. They found some other areas of concern that they brought to my attention. The engine balance was off. The camshaft that they pulled out of the engine was not the cam that I had specified the original builder to use. They also reccomended switching to a billet steel cam at the same time. Main bearing cap bolts were changed in favor of ARP studs.

The engine was reassembled and dynoed. No leaks and by using the cam that I originally wanted we gained 40 lb-ft in the mid-range. 446HP @ 5900 448 lb-ft @ 4300.

The engine/trans go back in tonight.

I am very pleased by the level of service and the quick turn around time that Keith Craft provided.

Olli

[Bob Cowan]

"They inspected the rear main area and confirmed that there was an issue. "

What does that mean? Did they say what the issue was?

Glad you're getting things back together again. Nothing like major engine troubles to ruin your week. And your check book.

[Olli]

Bob, what they told me was that they were able to slip a feeler gauge between the seal and crank at various spots. I'm not a machinist or engine builder but to me it sounds like the area in which the seal sat, the circumference of that groove, was not consistant with the circumference of the crank. I don't know what would cause that. The crank runout was checked as well just to make sure the crank was O.K. And this is why that was checked. The original builder advertised the engine as internally balanced. When he put it on the dyno he used a "0" balance dampner. Sounds right. Well, guess what? It was balanced (not well mind you) for a 28 oz imblance. After the engine was fired up for the first time, it was quickly shut down (so they told me) due to it shaking. So how in the world does a master engine builder not know what the balance was? I was concerned that the crank got damaged.

Olli

[Olli]

This is a picture of the rear main cap. This was taking after I fired the engine up and saw the big leak. I had contacted the original builder and he told me to change the seal. Before I did it though I did a little bit of reading in Tom Monroe's "How to rebuild Small Block Fords" book. In there I read that the seal halves need to be installed staggered. Interestingly, when I spoke with the builder he mentioned that too. Other than that drip of RTV ( are you kidding me???), which for sure I thought was the smoking gun, note that the seal was not staggered. When I questioned the builder about that he said that the seal must have rotated. Please. I'm not that stupid. My trust for the original builder completely disappeared. My gut feel is that he never assembled the shortblock. My gut tells me that what ever machine shop did the balance work bolted it together. Hence him being confused about the balance and the non-staggered seal halves.

Olli

[Bob Cowan]

Wow, what a bd assembly job. Kind of discouraging when you pay a "Master Builder" to do a simple engine assembly, and he screws it up. I mean, if I can do it, it can't be that hard.

[Olli]

Thanks to fellow FFR friend Sean, we installed the engine/trans last night.

Olli

[Racer 28]

Congrats Olli looks like it's moving forward again.. Look forward to seeing it done, and you enjoying it.

[Movieman]

I think I'd send the amount of the bill from Keith Craft that concerned this issue to that "Master Engine builder" along with the info you learned and just sit back and see what he has to say.
He should bear some of the liability for this.
Best of luck to you.

[Olli]

The original builder has already told me that he won't compensate me. He offered to fix it, but believe me, that was not his first response. He just wanted me to change the seal for the third and then yet a fourth time. When he suggested the fourth seal he added, "if you want to send it back, I can do whatever it needs and re run the engine to make sure that it doesn't leak." When I told him that I was having Keith Craft tear it down, he basically washed his hands of the whole thing. He more or less told me to shove it. I actually expected that response. I'm glad that I had KC inspect and rebuild as they made corrections that the original builder most certainly would not have done. Let alone admit to (wrong camshaft, poor balance). The turn around time that KC provided was simply outstanding. The original builder could never have done so. As I already have stated, the original builder lost my trust once I pulled that rear main cap. When I found out that the wrong camshaft was installed, I hit the roof. All of the original builder's paperwork suggested that he did install my camshaft of choice. When I called him on the camshaft situation his response was that I had no reason to complain about that as the engine met expectations.(I'm not sure whose) The cam of my choice ended up making an additional 40lb-ft of torque. It also had a broader power band and a better idle.

I'm going to put the whole "Team Jenny" engine experience in the past. There is no re-course with the original builder as he no longer builds street engines. The original builder is a professional engine builder for a very big name engine shop in NC. And when I say big name, I mean it. And yes, he really does work there as he took me for a very nice tour.

Olli

[Arrowhead]

Hey Olli, glad you got it straightened out. Sounds like your better off now anyway, but it was a rough road to get there. I feel your pain.

[Olli]

Fired the engine up today. No leaks. No drama. Just the snarl of the engine.

This is my first ever attempt at posting a video....

Not having much success with it.....

Olli
Ask and ye shall receive..

[ehansen007]

Olli, what's the URL of the video? Glad to hear you got the motor back in. what a nightmare. Looks great!

[Wayne Presley]

And #2

[Jeff Kleiner]

Glad you've got it back together Olli.

Jeff

[Wayne Presley]

Here's another



It's too bad Jeremy screwed you like that on the short block, glad Keith and Tony at Keith Craft took care of you. Is Jeremy going to pay for part of the repair?

[Someday I Suppose]

Olli, good to see the motor back and in the car, can't wait to see it. Heck with that, can't wait to take a ride in it :-)

Any chance your going to make it to the open house now?

-Scott

[68GT500MAN]

Oli,
Is that the rear exit exaust that FFR now sells? Sounds great.
Doug

[Olli]

Yes Doug, that is the FFR rear exhaust. However, I replaced the FFR mufflers with Magnaflows.


Olli