Milk Carton Guy Looking for Advice

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

Sorry for the absence. Since the buy-out in January I've been pretty busy making MAJOR changes to the company (more news on that shortly) and it has required my virtually full-time commit. I am also going to have to declare PM bankruptcy and start over since I'm verging on 100 unanswered PM's! Sorry 'bout that.

The 818 project is humming along and as you can imagine we are planning on doing an update at our Open House. We've been testing the chassis, suspension, brakes, and vehicle dynamics. The engineers are testing today as a matter of fact. Everybody wants to know what the first body will look like and we have some great progress on the body/(s) and will likely be shown at the FFR Open House on June 9th. Silence on my side does not mean that progress hasn't been going full speed. I won't make stupid promises and let people down, but I will say we are on target for an official unveil at SEMA in November and production in the first half of 2013.

I can't say enough about the corporate partners this project has had supporting it. The guys at Solidworks Software, Tom at HP, Dustin at Wilwood Brakes, Stan at TOYO Tires, Jim at KONI Shocks, the guys at AJW, Tim at GRM Magazine, and a bunch of others... The technology we are using to design, build, and test this car is really impressive and has met the high bar I set for the project.

The biggest challenge right now and the question I have for you guys is the product introduction. We will unveil the production car at the 2012 SEMA show, but WHICH MODEL? Originally I conceived this chassis to serve three distinct roles. 1. Affordable Giant-slayer street car. 2. Potent Open Track weapon and 3. Build-it-yourself 65+ MPG commuter car.

Despite the fact that our TDI powered GTM continues to win Green Grand Prix races and accolades everywhere (and Simon and his team are ready to apply this technology to the 818), I've decided that we should launch the 818 in line with Factory Five's reputation for performance and chasiss competence. To me, right now it comes down to the 818R Open Track model or the 818 street model. If you look at case studies like the KTM X-Bow, the Atom, the Lotus two-eleven, etc... It seems that race versions get the lions share of the press. The truth is that we would begin selling the car in both race and street forms since the race form would really only vary in terms of the additional cage, spoilers, shocks, brakes, race stuff, etc but share the same core body shape.

My feeling is to SHOW the 818R version first and to make sure the car's performance image is set first. To establish that the performance potential of the car is above cars like Porsche Boxter/Cayman/911, the Lotus Exige/Evora, and other notable track cars including even the modified Subies and others... THAT seems to me to be the biggest priority.

Do you guys have any thoughts? I could show some renderings if you guys would like, but this is a MARKETING question for the small group who have followed the car since we announced the competition a year and 3 months ago.

Dave

IF we focus on the track car, there is no doubt that we will also have available the street version but the spotlight would shine most brightly on the 818 with a few upgraded components over the stock Subie 265 hp engine, stock brakes, street trim.

ALSO for clarity, the first street car will be a roadster with a soft top (the top will launch WITH the car at intro). The Competitioncar will be an open cockpit race version of the street car body. The High mpg car HAS to be a coupe. Other combinations can be considered, but I am personally selecting between a race version intro and a street car intro. I will also mention that Automobile Magazine's Ezra Dyer has breifly driven the chasiss for a fun article on the new McClaren using the GTM and the 818 chassis for fun value comparos...

[kabacj]

My feeling is to SHOW the 818R version first and to make sure the car's performance image is set first.

Hey Dave,

Glad to hear all is going to plan.

Agree totally with your statement above. I think you want to lead with your halo car.

Go with your gut.

John

[Sebxb]

My honest answer would be show the street version but make sure that people know that you have a track version and a high MPG version being developped at the same time.

Why the street one? Because, IMHO, it's more likely to reach a bigger crowd. Racers already know how to do a race cars with a street car. High MPG is just the street version with another drivetrain, people that are interested will undestand the car is the perfect platform for that.

I am very interested myself with the 818 because it's the lowest priced VS high performance car I've seen that I can actually build and drive on a regular basis which is probably also your biggest crowd. I'm 31 and been dreaming of building a Cobra with my father since I was 5! But the price and limited use that comes with it (put the GTM in the same category) always prevented me from biting the bullet.

Now I see the 818 and I can clearly see myself building one of those and actually using it regularly cause it won't be too hard on gas and not too high priced to build. Now I can really see myself, my father and now my two kids building that car! (getting emotional here...)

Again, this is just my opinion... my perception of the 818 is that it's at last an affordable, not too picky, high-performance car I can actually use most of the year. I'm the average worker, father, limited budget kind of guy which I truly believe will be the main crowd for the 818.

My 2 cents!

Oh and thank you for the update Dave!!

[DARKPT]

I think it's really cool that you asked this question. Were I in your shoes I'd roll out the street version first, and my first year of advertising would focus on the reasons to buy it:

0-60 estimate
Expected total build cost
no painting needed
estimated time to build just n% of your very popular roadster (for folks who know of the roadster kit but can't commit that much time to a build)
Mention the donor platform (to draw in the three people left in that crowd who don't know you're working on this)
Mention the date you'll start taking orders
Show a picture or two
Link to an online brochure for more info

If I saw a quarter-page ad with that information somewhere, I'd have to take a look!

Racing definitely makes these cars even cooler, but most of your products will be on the street.

[shim2]

Also glad to hear everything is going well. I have to agree that it would be best to lead with the 818R as the flagship model of the 818 line. I think that would be the best decision from a marketing standpoint. To show it's true potential and offer milder versions, that reaches a much more vast audience. IMO if you were to start with the 818 as a budget build it would turn a lot of people away looking for top of the line performance but at a lower cost in kit car form.

As far as releasing, I think you have it right starting off with the roadster even if you show the race version first. Or you could just show off all versions at the same time.

[SkiRideDrive]

Thanks for the update. As for the marketing approach, I believe the more race oriented version will probably have more initial impact and engage the crowd emotionally. You will certainly mention the affordability of the street version while also being able to boast about the performance capabilities of the race version. I think most auto companies tend to push the high performance models in advertising, getting people super interested and then many buyers will choose to go the more economical route after some more thought. Either way best of luck and I am very excited to both see the body shape you guys have come up with and perhaps hear some updates/see some video of the dynamic testing of the go kart.

[shim2]

I could show some renderings if you guys would like

Yes please.

[thestigwins]

I agree with showing off the 818R. The race version will show what it is capable of and to me it's best to show off your highest performance machine. I'll be at sema and can't wait to see all of the Factory Five cars.

I second the yes on wanting to see a rendering.

[Gummy]

Please show the renderings, looking forward to the barrage of comments and opinions on them.

I do agree that showing the 818R first is a good idea. As SkiRideDrive said, most buyers end up going for the more economical route after seeing the high-performance version (they won't need a rollcage in their most circumstances while driving on the streets), but do emphasize the fact that a street version is also available (sans rollcage and other non-value added items in the eyes of the non-racer) and that a high-MPG version is also on the way.

[Dave Smith]

Johnny Kab! Thanks and hoping to see the GTM for SEMA perhaps?

Guys, Thanks for the feedback.

I do have some body images that are direct from the mold making CAD files so they are EXACTLY what the body IS currently. The Street car vs. Race car question is super important because I think the first image of this car will be burned into peoples minds and set the "idea" of the car. The kit price, cost to complete, engineering and buildability, use of donor parts, fact that it can be left or right-hand drive, etc etc ALL these FEATURES of the car will be pleasant surprises as a person looks at the car more closely, but all these things are truly FEATURES of the car, not the IDEA of the car. The car is the LOOKS and IDEA of the car first. The execution of the design goals are just as important, but not the first in order. The car has to inspire people from the very first "what the heck is that!?" look. The car HAS to lead in performance and the looks have to shout that. That's why I am leaning towards the 818R version as an initial unveil car because, like many competition themed cars, they leave no doubt as to their intentions and design purpose. If the car looks sorta good and the performance is sorta good we'll do sorta well with it... NOT the goal. This car is really our biggest challenge to date.

We HAVE to swing for the fences on this car. If we lead with the 818R version, it'll be easy to answer the very next question of "can I drive it on the street" with a street car with no wing, no cage, carpets and wearing plates in the parking lot... that'll be right after the guy finished gently tamping out the flames that had just burst out on top of his melon. I think an image will help. Perhaps the hardcore GRM and FF Forum guys should see the images first before Open House. That might make it easier because I've been staring at the 818R on my office wall for a week and I can't see it objectively anymore cause I like it too much.

As far as the MPG design, I am NOT happy that the current Coupe bodies that we looked at meet the design HoF goals yet. Further there is more work to do on the powerplant side... specifically, while the TDi is being used currently in the GTM by Simon and his team, I have spoken to Ford and the Direct injected turbo eco-boost engines (especially the new 3 cyllinder and 4 cyllinder ones) are getting HUGE mileage numbers and, hey, we like Ford! I have decided that the hi mpg model will need more engineering and will not be released first, leaving the other two variants that I posed the question on.

[PhyrraM]

By 'Officially Shown" I'm assuming you mean an actual car? If so, it doesn't matter which is officially shown first.

Have a completed car and show the artwork for the other.

If your talking all renderings, then show both - especially if they are the same base styling.

I would, personally, prefer to see the street car (and then 'scale up' to the 818R).

[leetfade]

I think you've answered your own question.

You are going to get a good feeler on here but it will be split, for the most part. The questions you have to answer are: "What message are you trying to send?", "What is the target audience?", "Who HAS to be excited by this unveiling?" It sounds like you have your sites set on decimating the performance cars for a fraction of the price and that is your target audience for the unveil. If that's the case, the 818R is the answer.

You are going to reach a broader audience with the street version but the magnitude of the reaction will be smaller, just on a larger curve. With the 818R, you will still get a positive reaction from a large curve, but the peaks will be higher for those performance minded enthusiasts. Isn't that really what SEMA is about, for the most part, performance?

I hope that makes sense... I wrote it pretty fast and don't have a lot of proof-reading time. ;-)

Either way, I am looking forward to seeing it at SEMA and hopefully stealing a few minutes from you to talk about it and get your opinion on some plans I have for it.

[Xusia]

As much as I hate to admit it, I think leading with the track car is probably best for the overall success of the project. BUT, why not unveil both the track car AND the street car at the same time? That would let people see what they want (those interested in track performance would see that; those interested in a daily driver that's easy to build would see that). Just a thought...

Oh, and PLEASE show some renderings. I'm on the edge of my seat here! And if I may, can you indulge me by answering one question: Will the the first street version - the affordable roadster - have roll up windows to complement the soft top?

[Dave Smith]

I'll release the image or images by the end of the week. i want to talk to Tim at Grassroots motorsports magazine about his forum at the same time. I do value the feedback tremendously and have tried to go from a stage where we gathered (and asked for) alot of feedback, to now a more focused stage where we gather feedback at nodes and focus on keeping the project on track and not getting sidetracked. I'll have SOMETHING posted by end of the week. We were already putting together video logs of development testing and CAD files for the Open House, but this question is bugging me (race or street intro) and I wanted your valuable thoughts.

as far as soft top, it will have soft top side windows. I wanted roll ups but the tech and time to do that is excessive while ANYONE who owns the new Mk4 and Hot rod tops (by Dave Draper) can attest to their great weather sealing. So it will be a soft top with zipper-in side windows. Final. I can see a roll up window in the future as an add/upgrade, but not at launch.

[Sebxb]

As much as I hate to admit it, I think leading with the track car is probably best for the overall success of the project. BUT, why not unveil both the track car AND the street car at the same time? That would let people see what they want (those interested in track performance would see that; those interested in a daily driver that's easy to build would see that). Just a thought...

Oh, and PLEASE show some renderings. I'm on the edge of my seat here! And if I may, can you indulge me by answering one question: Will the the first street version - the affordable roadster - have roll up windows to complement the soft top?

I agree with that! The race car will have the best impact at a show but make sure once people stop dreaming of the race car, that the street car is right there and readily available!

[Nuul]

Bummer, so both of them are open top at release. I was really hoping the R type was a coupe. It sounds like the high MPG is the body style I want but it won't be compatible with my donor. So, is there a 4th option of coupe with WRX engine?

[wallace18]

I think the 818R will be better for Press and first showing. Is there any thought of releasing more of what is needed from the donor? Thanks for the news. I am waiting to buy ASAP.

[vozproto]

I think the first question you have to answer is - WHO IS YOUR AUDIENCE?
Then pick a few cars that are similar in concept and market focus and that may provide your answer.

I get the performance intro. The question is... does the performance model of cars sell the main line, or does the main line sell the higher performance cousin.
Now for wrx vs STI I can understand that. The STI sells the WRX... but STI inherently offers more power. That's what the masses drool over.

Right now we are talking track upgrades. Brakes, shocks, spoilers, roll-bar etc. Zero extra power.

The following is the opinion of a 32 year-old engineer who has raced motorcycles.

In all reality although this car is a giant slayer in any form. Your majority audience in my mind isn't the turn-key track car guy but rather the person who dreams of the opportunity to take their otherwise street car on the track. And kill it.

Here is my concern with a 818R intro:
Every so often I get a bug to look for a new fun but affordable 4-wheeled toy. If I had enough money I would have a garage full of em. But I don't. At most I can afford 1 toy in addition to my daily driver. I come across track prepped cars with wings, giant brakes and roll cages. They'd be fun as hell. But I would never buy em.

Why? Because I can only afford the cost and space for one large toy. And if that extra (guessing) $5k gets me a whole lotta performance that I will rarely use the full potential of... then I'm possibly paying more for less comfort or less convenience in normal day to day use.

So here is my thought...
It's a giant slayer to begin with. The strongest message I could imagine would be something of the sort of...
"It dominates the boxster/cayman/911 as well as the exige/evora... and that's just the daily driver model."

That said... I do think proper shocks and big brakes are sexy. Maybe offer that as a little FFR offered side upgrade on the street going model.

[shim2]

as far as soft top, it will have soft top side windows. I wanted roll ups but the tech and time to do that is excessive while ANYONE who owns the new Mk4 and Hot rod tops (by Dave Draper) can attest to their great weather sealing. So it will be a soft top with zipper-in side windows. Final. I can see a roll up window in the future as an add/upgrade, but not at launch.

That's a bummer. Might have to wait for that upgrade, not too fond of zipper in windows. Hopefully a coupe won't be too far down the road from launch and will have roll up windows.

[OCCPete]

I agree with voz - if your primary seller is going to be the street car, then show the street car first. I think showing a track car with no interior will tend to turn guys off who want a nicely appointed street car. Even better - use the Lotus approach and show a hybrid of the two, track car with the street car interior.

JMHO,
Pete

[Aardon]

Im new to this forum, but Ive been following Factory Five for a long time. I was going to do a GTM when they first came out but life got in the way. I'm to the point again where I'm starting to plan and I can tell you for me it was the 818R image on the main site that has gotten me totally hooked again. Everyone I show that to wants it to be the one I build. It gets people excited. The street body above it is ok but doesn't hook people like a racer. I also think it will be easier for people to accept the racer with an empty or sparce interior. The street car only people are going to be more picky about the interior so I would be less inclined to show that if the interior isnt dine.

I realize those aren't the final designs but its the reactions I've seen so far.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Dave,
I'm thinking the street car should be the first unveil, albeit with lots of hype and images about the R version set to follow closely on its heels. I believe the street version is gonna' be the bread & butter...think Roadster vs. Challenge Car split. Racers have no problem visualizing what it takes to turn a street car into a race car (heck, that's how a couple of buddies and I hatched the goofy idea of turning a tired old Fiero into a Chump Car ) but I'm not so sure it always works the other way. While the SEMA audience includes a lot of hard core racers I think the crowd is more predominantly street performance oriented. They're the ones who need to be stoked to help intensify the buzz.

Here's wishing you nothin' but luck Man!

Jeff

[apexanimal]

818r at launch...

getting the press and people excited about the project will help overall success...


getting re-excited about this myself now...

[Mike N]

The track car is what will sell me, out of all the designs shown to date the ones that really grab me have been the track oriented ones. It should be your flagship model. Now having said that I would not buy a track only version it would have to be street legal (or be made street legal) and be somewhat usable on a daily basis. My roadster does more track miles than street miles but I still love to drive it on the street. Also as noted above I was really hoping for a hardtop track version. Will an open top to hardtop upgrade be possible with the current body mold concept, that would be very big selling point for me.

So what is your vision for the track version versus the street version? If they are basically the same package but with 'options' for the track version then market the HoF track version and list the options shown over the 'base' street version. I'll bet that a lot of street car people will want the race car look, wing, splitter, etc and will happily pay for those options but may not be interested in the brake, shock, race seat, cage etc package.

Bottom line is that if you want to get people excited focus on the track version but make sure that it is clear in your supporting information how it is different to the street version. I think people expect the top of the line version to be the one that is shown that's what the major Auto manufacturers do, think Camaro (ZL1), Mustang (Shelby) etc.

[PhyrraM]

Thinking again....I know...dangerous.

I wonder how much the 'let down factor' can deflate hype? If you introduce (visually) something where the whole car is basically upgraded from the anticipated $10,000 kit (seats, wheels, spoilers, etc), and then at a later date release the 'how it really is' photos, what does that do for real-world sales?

I think a build, or rendering, of a base kit is important to have around at release. It's been a long time, and I was admittedly younger, but I seem to remember seeing both types of builds/images in FFRs original "single donor" advertizements.

[Duratec7]

I'd go with the street car first. Anyone who races can easily envision the race version of a street car, not always the other way around. The HOF appeal with the finish of a street car, and performace that will come out of this car will sell.

[scartaan]

Dave- I'm a little confused, will the car you "show" be the first car in production? If so, you should expect volume sales to be proportional to the MK4 vs your spec racer. I agree with Voz, You could go with the 818R at SEMA, but I would go with the 818 street for first production. The market for a non-streetable race has to be fairly small. Most folks on the forum want a Targa type car.

[ncmcn]

Agreed on the 818R being the first car. It is Factory Five Racing, after all! Can't wait for the images!

[riptide motorsport]

818R first................remember the old slogan...............Win on Sunday, sell on Monday

I feel like Xmass, I can't wait to see the body!!!

[shim2]

Dave- I'm a little confused, will the car you "show" be the first car in production? If so, you should expect volume sales to be proportional to the MK4 vs your spec racer. I agree with Voz, You could go with the 818R at SEMA, but I would go with the 818 street for first production. The market for a non-streetable race has to be fairly small. Most folks on the forum want a Targa type car.

From my interpretation of reading the first post, they're going to release both the roadster than the 818R at the same time. He's asking which one they should show at SEMA.

[metalmaker12]

From my interpretation of reading the first post, they're going to release both the roadster than the 8181R at the same time. He's asking which one they should show at SEMA.

DAVE< 818R or the 818 HMMMMM, I would say the R, but i am torn lol.. decisions decisions

Love what you do, you have the best job in the world, so its your call



Thank you

[skullandbones]

I believe the "bones" of the 818 are so similar (roadster and r version) because of the drive train, that the roadster will represent the r version very well. It would also stay consistent with the target of 10k. I think the potential customer will see the great value of not having to change out from a 4 link to an IRS. It's already to go. At SEMA, it might add hype value to the project by showing how a racer all dressed out looks but there is still that basic roadster underneath all that "go fast" stuff. Many people want to race but most don't race exclusively so having a roadster that you can do autox and track days is much more versitile than the pure race car (small market). I'd definitely go with the street version as the first launch!! Thanks for the update and looking forward to the renderings. WEK.

[jcdennis]

I'm only passable when it comes to tinkering with my Subaru, so up until now I've not had much to contribute that others with much better knowledge didn't already comment on with better/more detailed information.

However I am in marketing... so I wouldn't feel right without at least throwing my two cents in here.

Based on what we know now (could change after we see renderings etc) I feel you have to go with the race version, with great pictures of the road version on display.

This would accomplish a couple of things.

1. People who can closely inspect the physical car will be very forgiving of any "unrefined" qualities of the car (zippered windows, sparse interior etc).
2. Showcase some of the aftermarket product (brakes, suspension, etc) without misleading anyone about what will come "standard".
3. Provide the best performance numbers/feel for any tests of the car, which is what everyone will be reporting.

There's obviously a lot more to consider, but from the outside looking in, with the information we have on hand at present, that's what I'd suggest.

[1fastsedan]

I'm only passable when it comes to tinkering with my Subaru, so up until now I've not had much to contribute that others with much better knowledge didn't already comment on with better/more detailed information.

However I am in marketing... so I wouldn't feel right without at least throwing my two cents in here.

Based on what we know now (could change after we see renderings etc) I feel you have to go with the race version, with great pictures of the road version on display.

This would accomplish a couple of things.

1. People who can closely inspect the physical car will be very forgiving of any "unrefined" qualities of the car (zippered windows, sparse interior etc).
2. Showcase some of the aftermarket product (brakes, suspension, etc) without misleading anyone about what will come "standard".
3. Provide the best performance numbers/feel for any tests of the car, which is what everyone will be reporting.

There's obviously a lot more to consider, but from the outside looking in, with the information we have on hand at present, that's what I'd suggest.

x2 - only I was thinking the race car in the flesh and a video with spinning 3D renderings of the street version behind it.

SEMA is about the aftermarket and performance...so show them what you can do. For the lay person, they need to be emotionally invested in those first images, so use the lower, more aerodynamic "convertible" with awesome wheels, tires, brakes etc. and get them invested. If they want to go all in, they can certainly upgrade the street kit (a lot of us already do). You should always showcase the best of what you offer, and then let the consumer decide how much they want to spend on which kit, model, and upgrades.

Plus, if those upgraded brake, wheel, and tire offerings are from your supporting vendors...coming out with the upgraded race version helps them get some additional exposure too.

[Oppenheimer]

My second thought was 'both' (my first thought was 'Milk Crate'?)

But since you probably can't do both, I would show the 818R (even if first to production will be street), but show the rendering of the street version (as a few others have already suggested). My reasons:

- bottom line = performance: establish the potential, cement that in peoples brains from the start (message = you can build your street version this fast, if you really want)

- street = press will want to compare to other street cars: this just invites critizism (by press) of any perceived shortcomings: if the no-paint isn't perfect on day 1 (which for racer would not be issue), if the interior isn't as plush as some production car, the zip in windows, etc

Unveil the R, but show what the street will look like. This will cause press focus to be all about performance, but that a street version will also be avail, and all they will have to report about for street is HoF looks. Then later when press finally gets hands on street version, and does inevitable comparison article with real production cars, it will be easier to forgive street 'shortcomings' by focusing on street legal racecar aspect.

You want the car to win all the initial mag comparo's they do. Those comparo's are always based on the 'focus' of the compare. Recent Motor Trend article, BRZ won, even though 3 other cars beat its raw performance numbers, since the compare was 'most fun'. If you release the 818R, the compares will be to other track cars, and for the $, it will dominate. If you release the street car, it will invite street compares, and they could weight 'convenience' over performance, and it could lose badly. Not what you want to see on day 1.

[shim2]

I personally think a lot of people who wanted a nice DD/Track Car will be mildly let down by the lack of roll up windows at launch.

[Gary in NJ]

Dave,

Marketing answer: What percentage do you feel will purchase the street version or track version? Go with the wider audience.

Car guy answer: The average consumer that looks at street car understands what its purpose is. The track guy looks at that car and thinks how he can improve that car for a track purpose. The same average street car customer looks a track-only car and QUICKLY looses interest because he has no use for the car.

I vote street car because it addresses both audiences, one (street guy) directly and the other (track guy) indirectly.

[Nuul]

I personally think a lot of people who wanted a nice DD/Track Car will be mildly let down by the lack of roll up windows at launch.

Exactly, I wanted a car I can DD and take to the track on the weekend if I feel like it. Open tops aren't practical for that.

[shim2]

Exactly, I wanted a car I can DD and take to the track on the weekend if I feel like it. Open tops aren't practical for that.

I'm actually pretty let down by that announcement. Next question would be how difficult is it or would it be for us to implement our own roll up windows if we choose to still buy the roadster at launch?

[jcdennis]

One quick point - to counter the argument of marketing what's going to sell the most volume.

"New" Mustang (2010 I think - if it's 2011 - my bad):

37000 v6 sold
26000 V8 GT sold
5000 GT500 sold

When they showed it off, it wasn't often the v6 in the spotlight....