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Thread: Cross terain variant?

  1. #1
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    Question Cross terain variant?

    Hey Dave...
    Have you ever considered a cross terrain variant? This chassis/subaru set up would be an excellent candidate for a modern sport version of a buggie. Im not talking about an all out off roader, just the kind of vehicle that can be comfortably driven on rougher terrains and have fun with. The sabarus are notorious for their multi use capabilities and by simply changing the body and maybe a higher ride hight and such you could offer a second kit. I know Id love one and I believe there is a real market for something between the crazy off road stuff and grandpas fiberglass bodied Volkswagen. Besides, the world market has a lot of area thats not so nicely paved...

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    Member Justen's Avatar
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    Shouldnt be too hard to just put a lift kit on it if you wanted to, although i have no idea what that would entail

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    Maybe.. I suppose that depends on how the frame and suspension set up turn out. But part of the idea is having a whole other body that looks the part.. Tire clearance and and more aggressive looking. Just lifting a sports car body would be a bit of a *******ization.
    So what does anybody else think of the idea in general?

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    this isn't a bad idea at all. although, it would be cool if it had an alternative body, much more minimalist. or even just a bare chassis without a body.

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    Senior Member PhyrraM's Avatar
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    I think the Subaru drivetrain is perfect for just such a project. However the 818, as currently described, would not.

    If your talking about an AWD runabout, keep the Subaru AWD, as designed with the engine up front, and drop it into a purpose built chassis and body.

    If your talking about a RWD buggy type of vehicle, but more refine and up-to-date, then the mid engined layout could work, with a longer travel suspension and specialized body.

    I suppose gear ratios with the larger tires might become an issue.

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    Yes I was talking about a RWD buggy type.. Tires may only need to be slightly larger as subies are often found will larger wheel/tire packages already. So gearing would be appropriate. A longer suspension would be nice, but I wasnt talking all out race buggy kinda stuff, just a fun runabout. We all are familiar that a regular subaru can go places when driven properly. The subie 2wd drivetrain would be plenty of fun and capable. Something along the lines of this..

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    Member LifeIsOnTheWire's Avatar
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    the only thing I can think of that would probably be an issue with simply raising the suspension on a car like this, would be the angle of the axles. raising it several inches might put the axles at too extreme of an angle.

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    Senior Member Olimk2's Avatar
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    There is a bunch of rally enthousiasts here and on GRM, so the idea is not pointless...I've made a group B style sketch a few weeks ago...not a dune buggy but could be raised...

    Last edited by Olimk2; 04-05-2011 at 11:29 PM.

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    Hmm well the image I attached didn't make it. If you've noticed some of the recent Subaru Outbacks lately, there is a taller ride hight that some of them are sporting.. I think this would be sufficient for the idea. Nothing that should create too much axle drop. Of course an awd would be a lot more fun for the slippery surfaces, but rwd drive will be just fine otherwise. And when I talk about a "buggy", Im not meaning just an updated version of the Myers Manx, but a sporty vehicle that will be all around fun. Something even the rally guys could really get behind. The Venturi America is a lot more like the lines I was thinking.. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011...als-e-v-buggy/ Its still sports car like with that all terrain flexibility. Something a little more 21st centry..

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    Junior Member Gearsmith's Avatar
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    I think this a great idea. I've often though about a dune buggy type vehicle that could also be a daily driver.

    Here's a concept Ford came up with in 2001. While not a daily driver, it serves as a great example of a modern day buggy:
    129_0207_03_z+we_drive_the_ford_ex+trail_side.jpg129_0207_01_z+we_drive_the_ford_ex+side_view.jpg
    Click image to enlarge.
    Last edited by Gearsmith; 04-06-2011 at 10:17 PM. Reason: pic didn't show up the 1st time

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    Senior Member 2KWIK4U's Avatar
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    There were a couple of designs submitted in the contest area which would make excellent rally options I think.
    "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others, and I require the same from them." John Wayne "The Shootist"

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    I have been thinking about this idea for years. If I could have a 'sports car' that would survive pot holes, an occasional dirt road or even snow I would jump on it in a heartbeat. I love the Venturi concept. As a matter of fact thats close to what I was looking for. I know that several major car companies have done cross terrain vehicles. I totally dig the idea. It's just that nobody has ever done it.

    I have an M3 and a '96 Cobra that does 1g sideways. I am so tired of speed bumps and dragging cars over parking lot entrances. I want something light with a strong tight suspension that I'm not constantly concerned about banging the chassis on something. I don't want a Jeep or a truck. I want a sports car that I can toss around and jump railroad tracks in. I don't care if it does 200 mph. I want something really fricking fun!

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    Senior Member 2KWIK4U's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelff View Post
    I am so tired of speed bumps and dragging cars over parking lot entrances. I want something light with a strong tight suspension that I'm not constantly concerned about banging the chassis on something. I don't want a Jeep or a truck. I want a sports car that I can toss around and jump railroad tracks in. I don't care if it does 200 mph. I want something really fricking fun!
    That's a pretty cool idea, sort of a "jack of all trades"!
    "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others, and I require the same from them." John Wayne "The Shootist"

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    Senior Member crackedcornish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelff View Post
    I have been thinking about this idea for years. If I could have a 'sports car' that would survive pot holes, an occasional dirt road or even snow I would jump on it in a heartbeat. I love the Venturi concept. As a matter of fact thats close to what I was looking for. I know that several major car companies have done cross terrain vehicles. I totally dig the idea. It's just that nobody has ever done it.

    I have an M3 and a '96 Cobra that does 1g sideways. I am so tired of speed bumps and dragging cars over parking lot entrances. I want something light with a strong tight suspension that I'm not constantly concerned about banging the chassis on something. I don't want a Jeep or a truck. I want a sports car that I can toss around and jump railroad tracks in. I don't care if it does 200 mph. I want something really fricking fun!
    kinda' silly to use a boxer engine that touts a low CG, only to lift up the whole vehicle so you can drive in and out of a steep driveway without scraping. just install an adjustable air suspension, so you can vary the ride height when it's actually needed...you could lower it on the highway/track and raise it for your dirt road/snow adventures

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    Senior Member 2KWIK4U's Avatar
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    I don't think the engine really has anything to do with it, the AWD platform would be the key like the rally cars. The engine is just a bonus, plenty of aftermarket goodies to make it do what you want.
    "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others, and I require the same from them." John Wayne "The Shootist"

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    I think your missing the point on the type of vehicle be proposed. This would be a car sporty enough for spirited driving, not a track star, something for everyday use. And the CG is not just in relation to the ground, but within the vehicle itself. A good CG within the chassis will keep it remarkably stable even if there is a few extra inches of ground clearance. The idea here is to be capable of dirt roads, beaches, and that crappy parking lot driveway at speed, not just getting in and out of a country club on occasion. Ive been searching around the web for the last month or so trying to find a good chassis to start with for something like this and haven't really found anything outside of sand rails and dune buggies. I was pondering whether or not FFR would be able to assist me in a chassis design of sorts (proper engineering) and thats when I found about the 818... PERFECT!! I too have wanted a vehicle like this for years, something that is well suited to the mountain town that I live in. Theres LOTS of subarus around here for just those reasons, but everybody here (FFR/GRM) I think is looking for something different than the norm. And the idea was in no part meant to take away from the street racer originally proposed, just another great idea for the same chassis. Raising up a sleek body with a pointy nose not only would be less functional, but would start to look like a lifted camaro, and nobody wants that!
    Last edited by AdamAnt75; 04-06-2011 at 03:43 PM.

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    Olimk2... A sweet design, reminds me of a Cosworth Escort..

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2KWIK4U View Post
    I don't think the engine really has anything to do with it, the AWD platform would be the key like the rally cars. The engine is just a bonus, plenty of aftermarket goodies to make it do what you want.
    you missed my point...if you have a low CG you have better handling, if you have a high CG from lifting a vehicle for more ground clearance you lose that handling, do to the higher CG...in other words, let's keep it low

    if you want a sporty car with a high CG get a Cayenne

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    Go with the rally design! It would really round out the Factory Five stable!

  20. #20
    Senior Member PhyrraM's Avatar
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    If the suspension is designed to deal with a higher CoG, then it can and will still be sporty and tossable. The CoG is directly related to the roll centers of the suspension and the camber gain designed into it to keep the tires square on the road under lean.

    A low CoG helps the designer, but by no means is it manditory. There are many sporty small SUVs that fill the bill perfectly. They just lack the styling element that AdamAnt seems to be wanting.

    What AdamAnt is proposing is not that difficult, it just needs a champion.

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    I think that people are starting to get the idea. The difference between a 4.5 and 6 inch ground clearance isn't that much. Besides, the air suspension is a great idea. It's what I was planning on doing anyway. Drive it at a normal ride height, raise it if you have issues. I want everyone to think just for a minute about a design that doesn't have a splitter scraping the ground, short overhang on the front and rear, descent sized wheel openings and enough ground clearance to drive up to a speed bump and just drive over it. Put 17-18'" wheels with more tire than a rubber band and 4-5" wheel travel. Make it plant well with unequal length A-arms and great brakes. Phyrra, like you said, control camber gain and control the roll centers. High CG, nope, not if all of the weight is low in the chassis and the car is not designed tall.

    Now... Add an air suspension (really its easy, just like swapping out coilovers) add an air dam with splitter that is removable (2000 Mustang Cobra R did it) and take it to the track.

    I'm looking for a good all around car that will handle real world pavement. There is one part of the Top Gear test track. It's a high speed going away left hand turn camera shot right past the tires. Almost every car screams through there left tires bouncing off the edge of the track and the whole car unsettles. The suspension compresses and the car slams down onto the bumpstops. Boing, left side launches into the air. Yeah, I'm tired of suspensions that only work within 2-3 inches of travel. Remember, as light as this car is, to keep body roll to a minimum it still isn't going to need big anti-roll bars. Small SUV? Nope, what I'm looking for isn't tall. As a mater of fact I'm looking for a light, tight sports car. I just want descent travel and clearance with no low hanging bodywork. When I take it to the track, I WILL put a splitter on and drop it to what the track will tolerate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhyrraM View Post
    If the suspension is designed to deal with a higher CoG, then it can and will still be sporty and tossable. The CoG is directly related to the roll centers of the suspension and the camber gain designed into it to keep the tires square on the road under lean.

    A low CoG helps the designer, but by no means is it manditory. There are many sporty small SUVs that fill the bill perfectly. They just lack the styling element that AdamAnt seems to be wanting.

    What AdamAnt is proposing is not that difficult, it just needs a champion.
    It should be noted that this post could be taken wrongly. Roll centers are NOT "directly" related to the center of gravity at all, though every suspension designer knows that they have to consider the center of gravity when setting up roll centers. So to clarity:

    Roll Center = The center point at which the suspension "pivots" around in relation to the body and is directly calculated out of suspension geometry.

    Center of Gravity = The center of the static balance of the vehicle. If a vehicle has a 50/50 front back weight distribution this point will be centered between the front and rear wheels. If the vehicle is 50/50 side to side, then it would be center side to side. Then there's the vertical axis as well, which thought slightly more complicated to measure, it's the most important value for any race car. The integra type R, and porsche 911's show how front/back weight don't matter nearly as much as does overall car setup.

    AdamAnt isn't talking about raising up a 818 to make it like a lifted truck. He just wants a good "street" ride. A low center of gravity is good weather it's a lotus or a minivan. Either way, it can be made to handle well, it's just matter of what it will take. Raising the 818 to allow enough suspension travel to travel over rough roads shouldn't be impossible to make handle well. I'd image the biggest obstacle would be how limited the stock suspension is. Even if there's some length adjustment in the control arms there might not be enough to make it handle as good as it can. So worse case scenario you sacrifice a little bit of feel and overall grip for streetability.

    For years I've wanted to buy a civic hatch, or something similar and make a tube chassis for it and throw the engine in the rear, and make it a 1 passenger commute vehicle that has lots of suspension travel using stock suspension designs, while offering incredible MPG and having enough get-up to get out of it's own way for a commuter. I'm sure I'll still end up doing it eventually, it's just when the time is right. There's nothing wrong with thinking you can have a car to "do it all" with the 818. It's going to be a splendid chassis to start with as a base, as with all FFR vehicles. The only limitation is your imagination, determination, and time.

  23. #23
    Senior Member bromikl's Avatar
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    I've been pondering the air adjustable suspension too. What kind of investment are we talking about? I hear we won't be able to use the donor suspension anyway...

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    Senior Member crackedcornish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bromikl View Post
    I've been pondering the air adjustable suspension too. What kind of investment are we talking about? I hear we won't be able to use the donor suspension anyway...
    http://www.airbagit.com/product-p/fbs-sub-09-kit3.htm

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    I have a feeling that we can't rule out FFR designing around the factory suspension. Yes, the subaru hubs DO lend themselves nicely to a dual a-arm setup, but who knows how far FFR will go to save the builder money.

    If they do go with a double wishbone setup front and rear, then getting different lengths made and then making the necessary adjustments like backspacing and such, a 2-3" raise might not hurt you too bad.

    If they keep the OEM links you'll have a bit harder time making it work well without lowering the car when you go to a track or go for a spirited drive.

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    And thats why I'd like for the design team to think about using a un-equal length double wishbone setup. It would make the car a lot more versatile. I'm just thinking that this chassis could be used for a lot more than one body style. If F5 designed in a fantastic suspension this chassis could be be used for multiple applications. Here are some of the links that I use for design ideas.

    http://www.ridetech.com/store/street...ems-streetrod/

    http://www.ridetech.com/store/contro...ay-system.html

    http://www.ididitinc.com/universal_s...l_columns.html

    http://www.flamingriver.com/index.php/products

    http://www.painlesswiring.com/webcatalog/index.php

    http://www.ezwiring.com/wiring_harness.html

    http://www.ezwiring.com/power_windows.html

    http://www.performanceonline.com/UNI...EHICLES-18978/

    http://www.kugelkomponents.com/zenca...=index&cPath=4

  27. #27
    Senior Member PhyrraM's Avatar
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    Very few suspension designs, if any, can be raised 2-3" without fairly serious comprimise in one way or another. Of course, the "high" position can be comprimised, I suppose.

    I bet a suspension engineered to ride at 7" ground clearance from the beginning -and not ever changed- will out-handle an adjustable design on anything but a paved race track. It would also allow a much lighter car not having any trick air suspension or such.

    I love the idea, but the execution should be simpler and light weight. What will allow a car such as this to survive the pounding of fun runs down fire roads is less outright strength and more simplifying and lightening. The less there is to break, the less it will break. The less it weighs, the less stress and force there is to absorb.

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    Exactly. A modular chassis could be used for several applications. Not only between the street car and "buggy" concept, but offering different bodies as complete different packages. Coupes, roadsters, retros, hot hatches, etc.. Yes creating quality bodies costs money for ffr, but its less than designing whole new cars, and it appeals to a larger audience. FFR has done a fantastic job in creating a reputable business, and Im sure that they could handle such a plan. The Challenge series has been a great success, and I imagine that they could duplicate that with the 818 chassis. FFR was an industry leader in creating the donor car concept, and this seams like a natural progression.

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    PhyrraM - Agreed. I think the original (at least mine) idea was that this second vehicle should come with its own suspension set up, borrowing from subaru or not. While an adjustable suspension has its advantages at times, I believe that one appropriate for this type of vehicle would be much more expensive and hefty than that of a hot rod that drops for looks or lifts over the curb. If I remember correctly, The original design idea for the 818 was to be similar to that of the Lotus Elise, being of a simple and light weight design. 6 -7 inches of ground clearance is plenty enough for this concept, and found on a lot of vehicles already. Yes this idea needs its champion.. Will it be Mark and Dave Smith??

  30. #30
    Senior Member 2KWIK4U's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamAnt75 View Post
    Exactly. A modular chassis could be used for several applications. Not only between the street car and "buggy" concept, but offering different bodies as complete different packages. Coupes, roadsters, retros, hot hatches, etc.. Yes creating quality bodies costs money for ffr, but its less than designing whole new cars, and it appeals to a larger audience. FFR has done a fantastic job in creating a reputable business, and Im sure that they could handle such a plan. The Challenge series has been a great success, and I imagine that they could duplicate that with the 818 chassis. FFR was an industry leader in creating the donor car concept, and this seams like a natural progression.
    You are right about a modular system, the auto makers are starting to do more of it like GM using the platform from their Holden Company in Australia to make the new Camaro.
    "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others, and I require the same from them." John Wayne "The Shootist"

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    Senior Member PhyrraM's Avatar
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    Here's a little trivia for this thread:

    The '90-'94 Legacy was available with a factory height-adjustable air suspension. A feature that was removed for the '95-'99 second generation Legacy. The original Outback, a natural candidate for the air suspension, was built from these second generation wagons. Both generations are the same platform with only styling and very minor other differences. The same platform the donor '02-'07 WRXs are built on, in fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelff View Post
    I have been thinking about this idea for years. If I could have a 'sports car' that would survive pot holes, an occasional dirt road or even snow I would jump on it in a heartbeat.
    It's called a WRX!

    J/K, though the WRX wagon had a big crossover on several different specs of what I'd like in a vehicle. It's been a winner combo for 7-years so far!

    Regarding an "off road" 818, if the Subaru's suspension is used--all of its mounting points--then this would be doable. There are suspension lifts available overseas--Australia, for example--that lift the Impreza and Legacy models. So, yeah, it'd be doable. Now the body might make it look goofy... But that's a different issue.

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    Regarding an "off road" 818, if the Subaru's suspension is used--all of its mounting points--then this would be doable. There are suspension lifts available overseas--Australia, for example--that lift the Impreza and Legacy models. So, yeah, it'd be doable. Now the body might make it look goofy... But that's a different issue.
    http://www.get-primitive.com/

    is the place to go for anything subaru+offroad in my opinion specifically the lifting kits you mention. for a WRX off road is very do-able, the 818 is not AWD and the bodywork might not survive a few fast runs through some gravel...

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    How to lift your Impreza thread on NASIOC.

    Above is a link to NASIOC where a motivated individual posted on lifting his Impreza. Depending on the 818's suspension, this gives you an idea of one possible way it could be done.

    Honestly though, a used Impreza L (the lightweight 2-doors upto '01) and a WRX or STi drivetrain is all kinds of fast. Stupid fast. And, if left at stock height or even lifted, it's very able to be a fast all road vehicle. Note, "all road" means mud and gravel ROADS aren't going to be an issue... This isn't the same as "off road."

    Still, a modern, Subie powered dune buggy would be pretty sweet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamAnt75 View Post
    Hey Dave...
    Have you ever considered a cross terrain variant? This chassis/subaru set up would be an excellent candidate for a modern sport version of a buggie. Im not talking about an all out off roader, just the kind of vehicle that can be comfortably driven on rougher terrains and have fun with. The sabarus are notorious for their multi use capabilities and by simply changing the body and maybe a higher ride hight and such you could offer a second kit. I know Id love one and I believe there is a real market for something between the crazy off road stuff and grandpas fiberglass bodied Volkswagen. Besides, the world market has a lot of area thats not so nicely paved...
    If you mean something like a "Group B" type rallye racer, that would be totally cool.
    I've always envisioned the 818 as a "Supercar meets Rally racer" type design. Thinking: Ford RS-200, Porsche Rallye car, Lancia Stratos, etc.
    Something with a full cab and roll structure to feel safe if the car should roll on a dirt road. (NOT a roadster like the "Cobra", Mazda Miata, Porsche Boxter, the last few designs have been hinting at.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
    I have a feeling that we can't rule out FFR designing around the factory suspension. Yes, the subaru hubs DO lend themselves nicely to a dual a-arm setup, but who knows how far FFR will go to save the builder money.

    If they do go with a double wishbone setup front and rear, then getting different lengths made and then making the necessary adjustments like backspacing and such, a 2-3" raise might not hurt you too bad.

    If they keep the OEM links you'll have a bit harder time making it work well without lowering the car when you go to a track or go for a spirited drive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelff View Post
    And thats why I'd like for the design team to think about using a un-equal length double wishbone setup. It would make the car a lot more versatile. I'm just thinking that this chassis could be used for a lot more than one body style. If F5 designed in a fantastic suspension this chassis could be be used for multiple applications. Here are some of the links that I use for design ideas.
    The good thing is that FFR is using a custom SLA type double wishbone suspension. It's right in their announcement for the 818 competition.

    To keep things simple this will be an elemental performance based street car first but with a roll bar/structure sufficient for track days. The suspension is a double A-arm/multilink with Koni coil-overs on all corners (we will not use the Subaru struts).
    http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/.../818intro.html

    Double A-arm, Double wishbone, SLA (short l
    ong arm) suspension are all used interchangeably. (No worries, I had to look it up myself a long time ago. )


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_wishbone_suspension


  37. #37
    Senior Member thebeerbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooluser23 View Post
    The good thing is that FFR is using a custom SLA type double wishbone suspension. It's right in their announcement for the 818 competition.
    You skipped over the "multilink" part of Jim's statement on that page. My hunch: front will be double A-arms using the front Subie hubs, the rear will be multilink, using the stock Subie bits and a something to replace the rear strut as a locating device.

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    Yes, count me in. I would order a Rally capable version of the 818 in a heartbeat. Rally Is definitely getting renewed interest thanks to guys like Bill Caswell showing it it possible to rally on a small budget.

  39. #39
    Senior Member Oppenheimer's Avatar
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    Feb 2011
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    In another long-ago thread Dave mentioned an affintity for the old Group B type rally cars. Stuff that looked like a sports car, but raised a bit, with suitable tires, something that could handle any 'road' (paved or otherwise). I think part of his Swatch-Watch concept secretly included more left-field type stuff such as this. Eventual versions of the 818 that include not just alternative bodies, and drivetrains, but alternative concepts of what the car is at its core.

    I can imagine such an 818. Different suspension (and slight changes to frame to accomodate), Body design along the lines of the cool concept sketch from post #8 above.

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