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The ej207's sing a special tune for sure.Originally Posted by shinn497
That's actually the engine that I've been wanting to use for awhile. Just a little worried about getting it to work from an electrical stand point. I dont know anything about Subie electrics.
It is very easy, they plug and play and there are wire kits to support the differences..If you got questions PM me
There are allot of under educated people claiming numbers that are off the wall. As a Subaru Pro Tuner I want to clear some of this up.
1st a 30r isn't making 500-700hp unless your spraying it
2nd The highes STi Turbo dyno I've personall done was 360awhp-425awtq on e85
3rd Unless your planning to make more then 450whp a Ej255/257 on e85 can safely do this
4th As a tuner I've driven 1000+hp Corvettes and Camaros on the street and they are a handful (zr1 is pinto by comparison)
400whp through a 818 in theory could run 9's in the 1/4 and will be a handful to drive period.
Thorne, how feasible is it to get 200 whp out of a EJ25* motor naturally aspirated?
I'm guessing, (and my skill level as a tuner is "pro guesser"), that a high compression, bored and stroked motor converted for E85 would be a really good start.
I've always wanted to do a naturally aspirated performance oriented motor, and I think a nice torquey motor with moderate horsepower would be a blast in a car like this.
Quote Originally Posted by shinn497 View Post
If you REALLY REALLY want to go All out I say crawford 2.7 liter stroker. It is 18k....for the long block!
On a side note, metal maker I fully agree without on the ej207, it is the engine I really want to use.
Btw if you want a lightweight, expensive, mid-engine, sports car with a cosworth engine. Why not a BAC mono? It is 75k, though...but it has cosworth!
We have that motor in our STi, its great but not worth the $ for 95% of users IMO.
AJW Perf., do you guys have an idea on pricing for your donor kits yet? (I believe you guys are behind 818donors, if i'm not i'm terribly sorry)
It's possible to get 200whp out of the 2.5 but not easy. For the amount of money you will have invested in camming it and a tuning solution Id wager you could have just boosted it.
That is almost certainly true. It would probably be easier and more cost effective to simply start with a WRX donor and leave it stock rather than get involved tweaking the NA engine. However, the benefit of the NA solution is a broader torque curve, simplicity, and no "heat soak" and other potential reliability issues. It's what I'm going for. My NA donor will get cams, some intake bolt-ons, a tune, and exhaust upgrades. And will likely not reach 200 HP at the wheels -- probably more like 200 flywheel HP. And I'll be happy, even though I probably didn't save any money.
This is my approach as well. Porting and polishing the heads is probably worth the effort as well.
Yes, I agree. Porting and polishing will be worthwhile also.
Yes sir you are correct!
It is all about what you are looking for, but they have ranged from 5,000.00 (Base donor) to 14,000.00+ (built block, Stg3, + more) thus far, depending on what the customer adds on or wants. You can build these for 15,000.00 completed or 30,000.00+ of course, just depends on your budget or what you are looking for. Shoot us a message if you are looking for a more specific estimate based on your goals for the platform.
[email protected]
A lot of what I'm thinking. I'm wanting/willing to throw some good coin at it. Yeah, I know a turbo can get there cheaper and easier, but I think "broader torque curve" is very often underappreciated. I see dyno charts where people are drooling over some high HP number that's really only usable within a very small powerband.
There's also a limited amount I actually want to use from the donor. I'd like to upgrade the brakes (necessary or not, it's an aesthetic thing). Different seats, steering wheel, and a lot of aesthetic upgrades that would make getting a standard Impreza, or even Forester, a much better, and cheaper option than finding a WRX donor. I can take that savings and throw it at upgrades.
Either way, I've always wanted to do an overbuilt NA engine, and this car provides an amazing platform with boundless potential.
I was looking at TWE Performance and they do some NA engine packages. Expensive for sure, but you'll get a high compression engine (11.2:1) with ported and polished heads, cams, balancing, etc, etc. I could probably shop around and get the price down, as I'd like to bore and stroke the engine as well. Element Tuning will do a big valve job on the heads, increasing them another 1 mm. They're claiming 20% increase in flow on the exhaust side. That's a $1,700.00 job.
From Element Tuning website
This is one of the few times in my life where I won't be dragged down by analyzing price to performance ratios. This time, going for what I want, and damn the torpedoes.Many may ask why don’t you port the intake ports fully? We don’t do this because almost 100% of the gain is realized by just fitting the larger intake valve and performing a bowl blend. (HP/value/compared to porting) On top of this the head retains 100% of it’s reliability due to how thin the cast walls are. It’s all too common to see highly stressed, high HP, road race engines blow through over ported head walls.
I've got a built 2.5 DOHC motor for my open light class stage rally car. Havnt got it on the Dyno yet but should have numbers really soon.
The awd mustang Dyno I use is very conservative reading. (Stock STI 220-225 whp, stock ej205 w/ td04 160 whp).
I'm expecting right around 180 whp.
Ej25 DOHC n/a motor
Mods as follows
-custom 10.8:1 wiseco pistons
-stock rods/crank
-ACL race bearings
-modified oil passages, shimmed 10mm oil pump
-port and polished heads
-stock size valves
-delta cams
-ems pro standalone ecu
-equal length header
-ITB intake manifold (in the works)
Got it all together and in the car, just have to wire up the ecu and get it on the Dyno. But other projects have taken over lately
1998 Subaru Forester
Full 06' STI conversion
Twin scroll low mount headers
HX35/40 turbo, ITB Custom intake manifold
JRach,
If you don't mind me asking, how much coin do you have invested in that engine?
I own/operate a small Subaru shop here in Seattle so I got some deals on a few things
Pistons-$520
Bearings- $100
Cams- $500
Header- $75 (used)
ECU- $cheap (got a special discount for documenting the build/results)
Machine shop costs- $600
Gasket set- $250
I did all the labor, port/polish work and assembly, so minus the cost of shop supplies an time... Free.
1998 Subaru Forester
Full 06' STI conversion
Twin scroll low mount headers
HX35/40 turbo, ITB Custom intake manifold
Thanks, that's the bogey I was looking for. I plan to do much of the assembly myself (I've built plenty of engines in the past, but no Subaru's) relying on local machine shops and speed shops for the detail work of porting, polishing, cylinder honing and the like.
Don't get me wrong I like a NA powerband, but these ej engines with stock turbos and a safe tune have a very broad powercurve with boat loads more power start to finish than any Na build can get. I guess it is just different strokes for different folks.
So I've tuned tons of GMs that have been boosted and in general you don't lose your powerband persay you make it bigger. compared to a Stock engines powerband. Also keep in mind Camming a car does move the powerband. I'll see If I can grab some dynos this weekend of NA vs Stage2 wrx
Speaking only for myself, it's not a comparison of NA vs. turbo of the same size engine (really, what's the point of that? The turbo adds power no matter how you look at it...). Rather, it's a comparison of NA vs. turbo to make a certain AMOUNT of power. In that scenario, the NA engine would normally need to have more displacement. Generally speaking, a larger displacement NA engine is going to have a broader torque curve compared to a smaller displacement turbo engine making the same power (because "power" typically means peak HP).
Putting it in real world terms, my choice is between a mostly stock H4 with turbo, or a mostly stock NA H6. From a power standpoint, these are comparable. However, for me the H6 is the winner because it has that smooth NA throttle response I really want and a broader torque curve (which will help with the added weight my 818 is sure to have by the time I'm done adding the amenities I'm sure to want). I know I'm giving up some fuel economy (or at least I assume, but my truck gets 13mpg, so really, anything is a huge improvement) and the ability to go wild with mods & tuning (which isn't on my list and not really my cup of tea anyway), and I'm OK with that.
I guess ultimately, it comes down to everything I'm planning on doing to an NA engine is what I'd be doing to a turbo engine as well. With the turbo, there's added cost. This is what I'd like to do, and the way it's forming in my head, an Impreza donor is going to be MUCH cheaper than a WRX donor. Either car is going to have the engine removed and have the bottom end rebuilt and some head work done. Looking at what's practical for this car, by the time I rebuild the engine, go for much higher compression, cams, head work, convert to E85, I'll have plenty of horsepower to scoot it along, and make it fun for a track day or two, if I ever get there (totally planning on it).
That's the way it's playing out in my head. If I manage to find a WRX donor for really cheap, things may change. The WRX stock motor will be plenty for this car, for me to handle. I'm not the Stig. But, that's boring. I want to tinker, and a motor is something I've always wanted to do. That being said, if the price is right, and I don't end up sacrificing power band and end up with a 300 whp turbo application, who would I be to complain.
Agreed, that's generally the case. A turbo or supercharger is basically adding displacement by forcing more air/fuel into the cylinder. So for them to be roughly equivalent you need more displacement on the NA engine. Not counting the 818, where space and weight are at a premium, I'll take a NA engine over a turbo every time.
I'd be very happy with a 255 and driving instruction. I have seen great drivers in some stock socker mom cars beat the times of good drivers in high dollar sports cars. I just want to be a better driver. That said, I love a lightened flywheel and proper suspension tuning/ tires. Are inboard brakes possible?
And that's exactly what I just did. A couple of hours ago, I made my "official" selection of an 2004 NA Donor Palette from AJW Performance over a 2002 WRX. While the WRX donor palette was more expensive than the 04 NA Outback Sport, the modifications I will need to make (Cams and Springs, intake mods, Equal Length Headers, ECU tuning) will ultimately make my NA selection at least $1000 more costly than if I had gone with building my 818 with a box-stock WRX donor. And the NA will come up about 30 horsepower short of the stock WRX, even with the mods. But I like the relative simplicity of the NA application, and believe that the end product will be eminently more drivable. And it will still approach being stupid fast......
It might have something to do with my age/generation -- but for some reason making power without the benefit of a turbocharger just has more panache to me. Different strokes for different folks, I guess........
I would argue that the EZ series H6 takes up less space overall because it's nearly the same external dimensions, but lacks an inter-cooler. If it does add weight, it can't be a net gain of much. Plus I'm skinny and light and already planning to add weight with creature comforts like A/C and leather, so what's a few more pounds? Even if the car winds up being 1900 lbs, that's still far lighter than nearly any comparable car...
I had one of those fully built Cosworth 2.6l long blocks. I was actually going to put it into the 818. Sadly it was recently damaged in a fire (the engine didn't catch fire, the garage it was in caught fire).I just found out you can buy a full built Cosworth 2.5L EJ25. Probably costs twice as much as the 818 kit though.
http://americas.cosworth.com/product...ck-assemblies/
However, if you have the money, and are going to be doing a LOT of track days, I think it'd be worth it.
If you go all out and get the 2.6l kit, billet crank, manifold intake, headers and dry sump, you're looking at spending well over $40,000 on parts, labor and tuning. On top of the engine you'll need a bigger turbo, a new ecu, a new turbo back, and a big FMIC (all included in the $40k). The actual Cosworth supplied block is not very expensive and no different from a standard ej257, what you are paying for when you buy the CS600 shortblock kit are all the forged internals.
HP numbers will vary from dyno to dyno, but you'll be looking at somewhere in the range of 500+ awhp on pump gas (On a conservative Maha dyno I had 630 at the crank on 94 octane pump gas and a "safe" tune). The weak point ends up being the head gasket, you should expect to replace this at least once a year if you push the car regularly (mine was doing laps every week).
I'm not going to rebuild the engine. I'm going to take the insurance money from the engine and build a much tamer ~400hp engine for the 818. An 818 with 600+ hp seems kind of pointless and there are much better places to spend your money if you want to make the car faster (I'm thinking 5-speed sequential gearbox). A 400hp engine will set you back less than $10k, after that it's diminishing returns.
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