What we know about the donor

[AVIONX]

OK. So we know a WRX is in. These came on regular and wagon. What are the year ranges of the WRX? Please post any facts we know about the WRX, but no "I thinks" Thanks! I need to start donor shopping.

[MDRex]

Just a few quick facts, will add more later when I have time. I have owned a 2003 5-speed WRX sedan, 2004 STi, and 2002 auto WRX sedan.

The WRX was first released in the US as a 2002 model, as both sedan and wagon. That car came with a 2.0L turbo engine and either a automatic or 5 speed manual, all were AWD. That car was basically the same through 2005, even tho the body changed a little. The 5-speed was slightly upgraded with stronger gears in 2003. In 2006 they gave the WRX a 2.5L turbo engine and upgraded brakes. The car underwent a complete redesign for 2008, and the details are not 100% to me.

Then we get into the STi. That car was released in 2004. Upgraded 2.5L engine with a bigger turbo and top mount intercooler than the WRX. That car has 4piston/2piston Brembo brakes and a very strong 6-speed manual trans. Suspension is the same design, although it is slightly lower and stiffer, and thicker sway bars. The STi also has aluminum lower control arms in the front, WRX are stamped steel.

[AVIONX]

Perfect. This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping for! Thanks MDRex! Anyone know about the track issue? How did FF lose an inch between the hubs just by moving the front drivetrain to the back of the car?

[AVIONX]

From another post....
This list is speculation, but if you looking for a list of cars that are basically the same from an engineering/swappability stand point...

'90-'94 Subaru Legacy, original chassis that debut the new Subaru 'corporate' chassis and the EJ series of motor.

'93-'01 Subaru Impreza, smaller version of the Legacy chassis. Almost 100% interchangable, just shorter wheelbase. The first WRXs were on this chassis, but never in USA.

'95-'99 Subaru Legacy, first major update, but still almost everything is interchangable. First adaptation of the Legacy to make the Outback.

'97-'02 Subaru Forester, A raised Impreza wagon. Based on the '93-'01 Impreza.

'00-'04 Subaru Legacy, The front half of the car is still on the corporate chassis, but the rear uses a new multilink setup. Making it the first in the line not 100% compatable.

'02-'07 Subaru Impreza, The bad boy. First USA WRX version and the first USA turbo since the '91-'94 Legacy SS model. Sedans have a wider track, wagons are the same as everything in the list above. STIs have a 6 speed trans and Brembos.

'03-'08 Subaru Forester, A new raised Impreza wagon. This time a turbo is available. Based on the '02-'07 Impreza.

'04-'06 Subaru Baja, Based on the '00-'04 Legacy, with the multi-link rear suspension.... and a bed.

'05+ Legacy and '08+Impreza, '09 Forester... total chassis update...the drivetrain should be useable, but not much else I would guess.


Footnotes:
There was an '92-'97 SVX with a 3.3liter 230HP H6. The motor has the same bell housing and motor mounts...bolts right up to any of the transmissions. The rest of the car was a departure and is likely unusable.
There are also 3.0 and 3.6 H6s from 200-260HP in newer cars that would also work.

[riptide motorsport]

Mabey they gained and inch in front with the new chassis design.............Steven

[PhyrraM]

Yes. '02-'07 SEDANS (not wagons, but including non-WRX sedans), are wider by about an inch. The width is from longer control arms, longer CV shafts and a strut that is "drilled" slightly different to accomodate the added "slope". The hubs/knuckles are the same, as are the mounting points. I *assume* the tie-rod ends are also longer, but not the rack itself.

STIs were only sedans (wide) for those years.

At this point we still don't know if FFR is using a "narrow" wagon or a "wide" sedan. I hope either will suffice. If a *narrow* car can be used, a lot more donor possibilities open up.

[AVIONX]

When everyone says "Wagon is skinnier than Sedan". Do they mean wagon as in Legcay Station Wagon and Forester, or are they referring to the 5 door hatchback impreza?

[Kasmodean]

To me it seems like the 2002+ WRX (legacy, forester equivalents) seems like the best donor.

So for WRX
2002-2003 2.0L engine
2004-2005 2.0L engine & stronger transmissions gears
2006+ 2.5L engine

Looking at this I would prefer a 2006+, but the issues not addressed by this summary are electronics/anti-thief systems.

Do the 2006+ models include anything electronics/anti-thief systems that would make the 2002-2005 a better donor?

[Oppenheimer]

When everyone says "Wagon is skinnier than Sedan". Do they mean wagon as in Legcay Station Wagon and Forester, or are they referring to the 5 door hatchback impreza?

When people refer to wagon vs sedan width, they are generally refering to WRX/Impreza. The sedan had fender 'blisters' (think Porsche 944), and the wheels were pushed out for a slightly wider wheelbase.

[Oppenheimer]

To me it seems like the 2002+ WRX (legacy, forester equivalents) seems like the best donor.

So for WRX
2002-2003 2.0L engine
2004-2005 2.0L engine & stronger transmissions gears
2006+ 2.5L engine

Looking at this I would prefer a 2006+, but the issues not addressed by this summary are electronics/anti-thief systems.

Do the 2006+ models include anything electronics/anti-thief systems that would make the 2002-2005 a better donor?

If there are additional electronics or better anti-theft, then that would be a _better_ donor, wouldn't it? I'm thinking there isn't going to be a lot of need for wire-diets, and since we aren't looking to replicate a vintage interior, keeping all the ignition switch & key stuff would probably be part of the donor reuse.

Don't forget 2006+ WRX = better brakes also.

[Horhay]

Since 2005 all STi models have had an immobilizer chip in the key. I'm not sure if this is true for Impreza WRX, Legacy GT, or Forester XT models.

[MDRex]

Subarus do have imobilizers, but they are linked to the chip in the key. So if you have an ECU with an imobilizer you should be fine as long as you have the matched key. Subaru dealers can also link keys to the ECU. I know the imobilizers started in 2005 for the STI, but not sure what year they started on the base WRX.

OK, looks like I was slow, see above post for more info.

I think that this kit will really be geared toward using a true WRX. The suspensions on the Forester and Legacy/Outback models are a bit different. I'm not sure exactly which parts from the donor will be needed, so not really sure if only the WRX will work. Drivetrains in the turbo models are the same and do swap between models, so we should be fine there.

[PhyrraM]

"Narrow"
'90-'99 Legacy and Outback
'93-'01 Impreza and Outback Sport
'97-'08 Forester
'02-'07 5 door/wagon Impreza (includes WRX versions of such) and Outback Sport

"Wide"
'02-'07 4 door Impreza sedan (includes WRX and STI versions of such)

"Narrow, but different rear suspension"
'00-'04 Legacy and Outback
'03-'06 Baja

"Drivetrain only"
'08+ Impreza (WRX/STI also) and Outback Sport
'05+ Legacy and Outback
'09+ Forester

I would wait to see what exactly is reused from the donor before purchasing a donor. Once I see that I can give a much more fine tuned list of donors and parts.

[keys2heaven]

So, would a 6-speed MT work?

[MDRex]

I don't see any reason the 6 speed would not work. You just need to make sure your trans, axles and hubs match. The Subaru engines and transmissions pretty much all mate to each other, you'd just need to be sure your clutch/flywheel/trans combo is right.

All that info can easily be found on the NASIOC site. Tons of info that will be useful to this kit can be found in the Swaps section there. That section will really tell you what parts from what cars match and can be swaped together.

[PhyrraM]

The STI/Spec.B six speed is much larger than the 5speed and uses a slightly different shift linkage. There is also a different six speed in the '10+ Legacy, but we will leave that out of the discussion.

There are two major things that need to be done to any transmission for this project. A 2WD conversion and a shift linkage that works with the new rear location.

*IF* a 2WD conversion is included with the kit (I'm assuming it is) there will need to be seperate 5 speed and 6 speed versions. I, *personally*, only see FFR offering a 5 speed version, so the 6 speed conversion might likely be on the builders "dime".

The same goes for the shift linkage. There will need to be two versions, one of which FFR *might* not provide.

3rd, does the much larger 6 speed even fit in the allocated space? I assume, yes. But it only takes one close fitting tube to make it a no-go without modding the frame.

Other possible 6 speed issues:
Axles, and Brembos. On Subaru swaps a 6 speed install almost always incorporates the front axles, hubs, knuckles, brakes and front struts. There are specific reasons for this that are beyond the scope of this thread. There may be ways around this, but as of this point we do not know what FFR is doing for brakes. I cannot see, even with a 'stock' WRX donor, FFR putting the front brakes on the rear of thier car. Subaru rear brakes do not fit on the front knuckles. That puts us in 'don't know yet' land as far as guessing if the Brembo (or WRX) brakes will even work on the FFR car.

[MDRex]

Very true. I did not take the size into account. Shift linkage to me is something that could be dealt with. But if the tranny is just too big to fit the chassis, there is not a simple fix for that.

Someone planing to use an STi engine and tranny combo probably has smuch larger budget than this kit is targeting. Therefore I would imagine that person should budget the extra expense of additional fab work to fit the STi components.

I really expect this kit to be built for the 02-07 WRX specifically. Other donors will most likely require additional parts and maybe even custom fabrication. I guess what it really comes down to is knowing what FFR plans to use from the WRX, before we really know what other cars we can pull parts from.

[subyrod]

What I think is interesting is the track width. I would have thought a MR car would have a wider rear track width. Plus, I noticed the track widths are narrower than a suby WRX, but track can also be affected by wheel dimensions (width, offset, etc.).

I'm assuming the wider front track that is specified currently by FFR gives a MR car better steering response and helps rotate the rear biased weighted car...?

[PhyrraM]

....I really expect this kit to be built for the 02-07 WRX specifically. Other donors will most likely require additional parts and maybe even custom fabrication. I guess what it really comes down to is knowing what FFR plans to use from the WRX, before we really know what other cars we can pull parts from.

Exactly. I'm in a wait and see mode.

Even if the donor is a very specific " '02-'07 WRX" it still leaves the question: "Is there anything from the donor related to the track width used with the kit?" And if so "Can it be dealt with if you have the wrong size WRX?"

Personally, I'm hoping for completely fabricated control arms on all 4 corners. Then the worst case scenario is going to the parts store and buying the correct CV axles if your donor doesn't have them.

[Oppenheimer]

Personally, I'm hoping for completely fabricated control arms on all 4 corners. Then the worst case scenario is going to the parts store and buying the correct CV axles if your donor doesn't have them.

I have a feeling that is what FFR is planning, fabricated control arms, with coil-overs supplied by FFR.

[eagle98ak]

For the budget minded folks it should be possible to use an RS for the donor. 170hp stock in a sub 2000lb car would still be entertaining. Plus with better intake, exhaust and a set of cams 200ish horsepower is easily and cheaply achieved.

[Mauricio]

also a good source of info:
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f128-swaps-conversions

[Mauricio]

also of note, if the WRX sport wagon is a suitable donor, then the SAAB 93x (affectionately known as the SAAB-aru) should also work as a donor, being that it is a re-badged WRX wagon.

[blueafro]

also of note, if the WRX sport wagon is a suitable donor, then the SAAB 93x (affectionately known as the SAAB-aru) should also work as a donor, being that it is a re-badged WRX wagon.

That is the Saab 9-2x, not the 9-3x. I don't know about other markets, but the 9-2x was only offered in the US for two model years, 2005 and 2006. The turbo model was called the Aero, and it was the 2.0 l in '05 and 2.5 l in '06.

Given that the body and the interior is being thrown away, I can't see much point in seeking out the rarer, more expensive Saab instead of the Subaru, but I suppose a rollover wreck or the like might be worth looking into if it could be had cheaply.

[prematureapex]

If there are additional electronics or better anti-theft, then that would be a _better_ donor, wouldn't it? I'm thinking there isn't going to be a lot of need for wire-diets, and since we aren't looking to replicate a vintage interior, keeping all the ignition switch & key stuff would probably be part of the donor reuse.

Don't forget 2006+ WRX = better brakes also.

Well, not all that much better.

The 06+ 4-pots have LESS stopping power than the 02-05 2-pots, and each system uses the same rotor. However, the 4-pots are true opposable calipers, increasing pedal feel and offering the ability to load pads in from the rear.

The real benefit to the 06+ brakes is the rearward bias shift due to the decrease in front clamping force.

But all in all, while I'd want the 4-pots, they're not all that much "better" from a performance standpoint.

Again, weaker, and probably offering even less heat capacity over the iron-sliders.




Oh, the the slight gear width increase was a 2003.5 model year change. Not that I think 02-03.5 trannies will have any issue in the 2wd configration. Idiots and AWD clutch-dumps lead to problems...