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Thread: Carl's Mk 4 Roadster Build

  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bking View Post
    Perhaps the 3/8-14 to 7/16-14 adapter Jeff mentioned would fix the problem. It would screw into the over rider and the 7/6-14 blot would screw into it. Pm me if that looks like a fix and I'll make for you.
    King,

    Thanks ... I will pm you by the morning. If I understand what you all are proposing is that I would keep all the FFR hardware and just add the adapter to connect to the FinishLine overriders.

    Since I have the Kleiner mod on the rear ... I am trying to get my head (a bit more muddled than normal) how you would tighten the 7/16-14 at the threaded standoff inside the trunk. I guess I would hold the threaded still with two nuts locked together and then turn the standoff to tighten it up against the aluminum

    I will head out to the garage and take a photo and edit this post with it.

    Thanks,

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  2. #682

    Raydots with Convex or Without Convex Mirrors

    Which are preferred?
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  3. #683


    Not a waxer
    Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    Raydots with Convex or Without Convex Mirrors
    Which are preferred?
    Neither! Well, at least not straight out of the box. I used Raydots and mounts from Finish line with some mods.



    I started with the flat lens for the driver's side and another with convex for the passenger side. Couldn't see for squat! Took the mirrors apart and removed the glass lenses then replaced them with some cheap stick on convex ones from Pep Boys or Autozone---note that these are not stuck on and actually go under the bezel in place of the originals. What a difference!



    Here is the view from the driver's seat. Yeah, it has that "objects in mirror may be closer than they appear" thing going on but what's important is that you can tell when something is there and then pinpoint EXACTLY where with a quick glance if need be.



    On the passenger side visibility was compromised a bit by the windshield post and wind wing. Although I could see objects it just wasn't positioned for a quick look so I extended it out about 2" and now it is much better. I know this won't be for everybody for aesthetic reasons but I can live with it and the clearer field of vision it provides. Chalk one up for "form follows function"!



    In addition to having functional mirrors and using them something I've found in ten years of driving the roadster is that I am more conscious of where traffic I've passed is, and for longer, than when I'm in my daily drivers. People tend to hang out on our rear corners taking photos and video---train yourself to watch out for them!

    Jeff

  4. #684
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    If you make up some mount plates like Jeff's this opens up a world of motorcycle mirrors. Most all of them have a threaded stud at the mount end.


    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  5. #685
    Senior Member 2bking's Avatar
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    I think I used the same mirrors as CraigS just mounted them a little different. They cost about $30 for the pair from Amazon.
    2015-12-13 18.39.25d.jpg 2015-12-13 18.39.44d.jpg 2015-12-15 17.54.52.jpg
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  6. #686
    Thanks all for the ideas ... I ended up going with the Raydots from Finishline ... I have not mounted them yet.

    Jeff: I assume you sourced a 2.5" carriage bolt to extend the PS. Is this correct? I have aluminum tubing but need to purchase the longer carriage bolts.

    I also plan on not mounting the plates at the rear of the windshield post to avoid the brass insert.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  7. #687


    Not a waxer
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post

    Jeff: I assume you sourced a 2.5" carriage bolt to extend the PS. Is this correct? I have aluminum tubing but need to purchase the longer carriage bolts.

    I also plan on not mounting the plates at the rear of the windshield post to avoid the brass insert.

    Carl
    It's been 9 years or more so the memory is foggy but yeah, I probably just used a longer carriage bolt. If you look at the photos you'll see that rather than using the windshield mounting screw locations I drilled the post and attached the plates with chrome buttonheads and acorns.

    Jeff

  8. #688

    FinishLine Overrider Installation Update

    After getting all the photos made for the DMV and the paperwork almost ready ...

    My poorly executed and overly complicated means to attach the overriders looked like crap.



    One of the guys over on the FFR forums (King) offered to machine me some brackets specifically designed to: 1) Convert from the 3/8" screw on the Finishline overrider to the 7/16" hardware provided in the kit. 2) Mount the front overriders to be parallel with the angle of the cowl.

    Here is the version ... made from Stainless Steel. This one happens to be for the rear overriders.



    The 3/8" side is attached to the overrider using 3/8-14 x 1/2" screws with lock washers. In final assembly I will use a little locket.



    Here is what they look like on the rear of the car BEFORE installing the FinishLine rubber bushings and SS tubing.



    Thanks to King for helping me out ...

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  9. #689
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    Which are preferred?
    For your Raydot/Finishline mount mirrors, check out what Marcello did. I did virtually the same thing. The Delrin extender can be made any length. I used a coupling nut on the inside of it.

    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...nniversary-Mk4 Post 12.
    Last edited by boat737; 06-27-2017 at 12:09 PM.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  10. #690
    Boat,

    Sorry for the very late reply ... some health issues have kept me sidelined for the last three weeks.

    I like the look and that shine of it ... did you do it for both sides?

    Right now I have a lot of aluminum tubing of various different diameters but don't have the delrin so I may need to try the tubing first.

    Again,

    Thanks.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  11. #691

    Restart Build ... Again

    After almost a month I finally got back on the build ... feels great. After the infected part of my right lung was removed I feel a whole lot better; ready to get re done now.

    Thanks to EdwardB over on the Factory Five Forum for these modifications/improvements.

    I had initially installed the windshield wiper wheel boxes on the cowl using the hardware provided by FFR including the rubber hose gasket that goes between the wheel box and the body cowl. The one on the left on the photo.



    I also had to make some "adjustments" to one of the wheel boxes



    As others have found ... these just don't do the job adequately. EdwardB's method of substituting 3/4" aluminum square tube for the rubber seemed to be my best option. Initially I cut the tube to match the angle in the rubber gasket; which turned out to be the wrong thing to do. The original cut is to the right in the above photo.

    After attempting to reassemble the wheelbox with the newly fabricated gasket, I found that the angle of the cut taken from the rubber gasket was way off compared to the angle on the chrome base.



    After grinding the 3/4" to the correct angle ... here is how all the parts fit together. The red rectangle represents the fiberglass cowl.



    After installation the only issue appears to be the gaskets under the chrome base. I could not get them positioned so the gasket was centered under the base on the windshield side.



    I must be doing something wrong in the assembly or I need to make larger gaskets ... Thoughts?

    A word of caution; it is very easy to get the ferrule nut cross threaded on the aluminum "snout" of the wheel box. That end of the wheel box is aluminum and very easy to cross thread (at least for this Defective End User).

    Another EdwardB modification is bending the arms of the windshield wipers so the blades are lower on and parallel to the bottom of the windshield when in the "park" position.



    Before bending they stick up about 30 degrees from horizontal. The DS could be bent as is but a propane torch was used to heat up the PS to the proper bend without distortion or, even worse, breaking. I think this looks a lot better.

    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  12. #692
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Nice work and glad my build threads helped. For the spacer, definitely use the chrome bezel piece to set the angle of the spacer. For the gaskets, I too have found the fit to be inconsistent. First two I built I gave up and made my own. The Anniversary build the gaskets fit pretty well, so I used the supplied ones. I think they were from a different supplier as all the parts were a little different than before. But I really don't know. It's easy enough to make new ones out of flat neoprene. Start with an oversize piece. Use the existing gasket to make the oval hole. Assemble the wheelbox, spacer, oversize gasket, bezel and nut onto the body. Then trace around the bezel onto the gasket material. Cut to that line and you'll have a good fitting gasket.

    I see you have the Finishline wiper arms. I too switched to those on the Anniversary build. The ones from FF just didn't fit well and were hard to get on and off. The wedge lock on the Finishline wipers works well. Maybe you know this, but the little tab where the solid metal piece comes out of the base part of the arms gets rotated to lock the length of the arms once you have them where you want.
    Last edited by edwardb; 07-27-2017 at 08:10 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  13. #693
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    Boat,

    Sorry for the very late reply ... some health issues have kept me sidelined for the last three weeks.

    I like the look and that shine of it ... did you do it for both sides?

    Right now I have a lot of aluminum tubing of various different diameters but don't have the delrin so I may need to try the tubing first.

    Again,

    Thanks.
    Hi Carl. I'm with you on the health thing. Got knocked for a loop last month myself. Have had to re-vamp my whole life. But with all my changes, I'm doing great and hoping to get back to work (job) in a month or so.

    Right now, I've made up a Delrin spacer (with the coupling nut inside) for both sides. The driver side is a bit shorter at 1 inch, and the passenger side at about 1 1/2 inches, but I did cut a third one at 2 inches if I need it. It still looks as if I will need to put a bend in at least the passenger side bracket to get the RayDot mirror pointing correctly. I figure 15 or 20 degree bend ought to do it, I just have to get over to a friends shop that has a break (or is that brake?) that can bend that little 1/4 inch thick bracket. I'm not at that point in the build quite yet where the windshield is on the car so it's all speculation, guessing and standing back and hemming and hawing. After seeing Marcelo's (CDXXVII) I'm sure it will be perfect.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  14. #694
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    I could never get the supplied gaskets to work with the wiper post base bezel. Very poorly designed.
    Try as I might, I still had issues with the cable skipping the gear on one side, and the wiper would go all wonky. After painting, I never bothered to re-install the arms.

    I'm not saying I will never get caught in the rain, but I have managed so far, in almost 6000 miles of cruising..lol

  15. #695
    I think I found out about the tabs on Finishline arms by accident but thanks for reminding me.

    I have some neoprene so I will make them over when I pull them off in preparation for painting ... which I hope will be soon.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by boat737 View Post
    Hi Carl. I'm with you on the health thing. Got knocked for a loop last month myself. Have had to re-vamp my whole life. But with all my changes, I'm doing great and hoping to get back to work (job) in a month or so.

    Right now, I've made up a Delrin spacer (with the coupling nut inside) for both sides. The driver side is a bit shorter at 1 inch, and the passenger side at about 1 1/2 inches, but I did cut a third one at 2 inches if I need it. It still looks as if I will need to put a bend in at least the passenger side bracket to get the RayDot mirror pointing correctly. I figure 15 or 20 degree bend ought to do it, I just have to get over to a friends shop that has a break (or is that brake?) that can bend that little 1/4 inch thick bracket. I'm not at that point in the build quite yet where the windshield is on the car so it's all speculation, guessing and standing back and hemming and hawing. After seeing Marcelo's (CDXXVII) I'm sure it will be perfect.
    Thanks ... I will check it out ... It these kinds of detail stuff that are easier to do now.
    Last edited by carlewms; 07-28-2017 at 04:39 AM.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  17. #697

    Overider Installation ... The Latest and Hopefully Final Version Part 1

    As background ... I had a challenge where 1) the hardware provide by FFR was 7/16"-14 while the FinishLine Overiders were designed for 3/8"-16 hardware; 2) I had already installed the FFR hardware on the rear and the tank was already installed; and 1/2 full of gas; 3) I wanted to make sure the front overriders were installed parallel to the face of the radiator opening; and, 4) my first solution looked like crap.

    Thanks to Craig S and King over on the FFR forums here is the resulting solution

    Front Overriders:

    Here is the final hardware for mounting to the front frame.



    The only real PIA is getting to the heads of the bolts inside the overriders but a claw foot open end wrench solved that problem.

    This is how the King 7/16" to 3/8" brackets were attached to the overriders.



    For the front overriders ONLY ... the brackets were heated and bent to approximate about 7 deg from vertical. To achieve the desired angle I cut the upper FinishLine SS sleeve to get the distance I thought look right from the face of the radiator opening to the back of the overrider. The lower FinishLine SS sleeve was then sized to achieve the angle.



    Here are the results ...





    My thanks to CraigS and King ... King thanks for making the excellent brackets.

    Thoughts ...

    Rear Overriders in the Next Post ...
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  18. #698

    Overider Installation ... The Latest and Hopefully Final Version Part 2

    The installation of the rear FinishLine Overriders was easier than the front ones ...

    I had already installed the Kleiner modification to allow installing the hardware without lowering the gas tank. Here is the hardware for the rear.



    The results ....





    Do you think this will work long term?
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  19. #699
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    Looking great Carl!!!!!!
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  20. #700
    Senior Member srobinsonx2's Avatar
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    Man Carlewms. I like the narrated pictures. The rest of us are going to have to step up our game on thread details. NICE WORK.
    FFR MK4 Complete Kit #8952
    Build Thread
    Bodywork Thread
    3 Link Rear Suspension, Gordon Levy 347 SBF with T5
    First start Feb 20, 2017, First Go Kart March 5, 2017, Registered & Title April 25, 2017

  21. #701
    Quote Originally Posted by srobinsonx2 View Post
    Man Carlewms. I like the narrated pictures. The rest of us are going to have to step up our game on thread details. NICE WORK.
    Thanks ... I hope they are useful to those that are still in the process of building ... or considering it. I am convinced that anyone can build one of these if they have the desire ... because the expertise is all around to assist in getting er done.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  22. #702

    Breeze Roll Bar Installation Part 1

    Now that the body was in position I cut the holes for the Breeze Driver's Side SS Roll Bar.

    Why Breeze vice the one that comes from FFR? The FFR hoops are "too" tall and are not raked back in my humble opinion; the Breeze looks a lot better.

    Since I didn't have the holes cut by FFR prior to delivery I had to do it myself...and the process was just a little crazy.

    The light from a strong flashlight can be seen through the fiberglass so I inserted a light into the frame mounts for the roll bar and used felt tipped pen to mark the spot for the hole on the fiberglass. A 2" diameter hole saw was used to cut the first hole.



    Once the inside leg was located the outer leg hole was marked at the base of the outside leg of the Breeze hoop parallel to the flat section of the rear cowl.

    Again used the 2" holes saw to cut the hole for the outside leg of the hoop and then the hoop lowered on to the frame tubes.



    Now for the trickier part ... locating and cutting the oval for the rear leg of the roll bar. Broke out the trusty flashlight again ...



    I focused the flashlight to maximize the beam and marked the location with the marker. The cut was made with the 2" hole saw and then ovaled out with a grinding wheel and rasp.



    After fiddling with the moving parts here is the semi-final fitment of the roll bar. The final fitment will have to wait until the body is off for painting to get access for mounting and drilling the stub tubes.





    Once I had in position I marked the tube in the locations where it emerges from the body to make off body fitting easier.



    Any suggestions or comments are always appreciated! Thanks to Mark and Breeze for an excellent product.
    Last edited by carlewms; 08-07-2017 at 10:00 AM.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  23. #703
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Kudo's Carl... Your a brave fellow cutting into the body like that..
    It turned out just as the Dr. ordered though, so that should be a relief. I know I would be holding my breath the whole time..

    You could find the body won't go back on exactly, as it is now, try as you might. You may find that allowing a little more clearance at the tight spots, now, will be less trouble then after the body is painted, and back on, and your trying to fit the roll bars. BUT...Depending on the bezels used, you may find one of the bezel retaining screw holes, misses the body. It just hangs in space..If you run into that, I can make a suggestion, as I had that happen.
    FFR6803RD, MK 3.1, 302 EFI, fr/rr disc brakes, WC-T5, c/w Hurst Competition Plus shifter, 3 link rear, Koni adjustable coil over shocks, dual roll bars, BBK 4-4 headers, 3.55 rear gears, BBK rear lower control arms c/w poly bushings. Ivy Green Metallic Arrived-02/08, On road 09/2010

  24. #704
    Bill,

    Thanks ... each time I cut or drill into the body I think my blood pressure goes up a bit. I have gotten more proficient on fiberglass repair for some mistakes previously made so if I have to do some repairs ... so be it.

    I like your the idea of you posted on the other forum ... In fact I am checking with Russ Thompson who makes bezels if he makes them for the larger diameter Breeze roll bar.

    Thanks,

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  25. #705
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    Bill,

    Thanks ... each time I cut or drill into the body I think my blood pressure goes up a bit. I have gotten more proficient on fiberglass repair for some mistakes previously made so if I have to do some repairs ... so be it.

    I like your the idea of you posted on the other forum ... In fact I am checking with Russ Thompson who makes bezels if he makes them for the larger diameter Breeze roll bar.

    Thanks,

    Carl
    I got my Breeze roll bar trim rings from Mike Everson/replicaparts.com http://replicaparts.com/roll%20bar%2...ing%20page.htm
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  26. #706

    Defroster/Demister Mockup

    After going as far as I could with the wiring of the trunk I decided to focus on getting the rest of the heater vent tubes mocked up.

    The heater box and all engine compartment components have already been installed .... a long time ago! The vent tubes to the foot box vents are also installed. What remains are the vent tubes to the rear facing vents and the defroster/demister for the windshield.

    Before installing these I needed to figure out how to connect the "Y" to the NCR fiberglass defroster plenum through the 2" blasted gate valve used to control airflow to the plenum.

    Some requirements I set for the install:

    1. It had to be removable without cutting the vent tube or the plenum;
    2. Maximize flow to the windshield area right in front of the driver; and,
    3. The amount of air going to the defroster needed to be controlled.

    The solution and mock up ...

    1. Determined the location for the plenum and blast gate;

    2. Drilled a 2.5" hole with a hole saw in the plenum;
    3. Drilled a hole to accept the boss on the 2" blast gate valve;

    4. Fabricate a 1/8" thick rubber gasket to seal off the area between the blast gate and the bottom of the plenum;
    5. Fabricate 3 brackets from sheet metal to attach the blast gate to the plenum;

    6. Drill out the brackets to use the existing hardware on the blast gate and #10-24 machine screws and Nyloc nuts for the plenum;

    7. Installed the assembled blast gate on the plenum making sure the that the boss on the blast gate is indexed to the small hole on the plenum;
    8. A PVC "T" was painted and prepped to divert air to the defroster plenum;
    9. The vent tubes are then attached to the "T".
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  27. #707

    FinishLine Prop Rod Installation

    In searching the forums I did not find much on exactly how to install this rod ... CCSRC had a post on the installation which helped guide me ...

    The FinishLine Trunk Prop Rod is mocked up ... finally.

    Borrowing on the work of others on the forum ... with a few modifications of my own. The biggest modification was to move the rod farther away from the trunk lip and mount the bottom bracket so that it would not interfere with the Breeze "D" trunk seal.

    Using some scrap 1.5" x 1.5" x 1/8" angle aluminum bracket was fabricated to accept the rod's bracket on the inboard side, mount to the trunk lip and provide a location for the brace to the side of the trunk.

    A brace was fashioned from some spare 1/2" aluminum tubing. The ends were flattened out and drilled for #10 - 24 x 1/2" bolt on the top and 3/16" rivet on the bottom.

    The base of the upper support is a 1" x 2.5" x 1/4" aluminum block shaped to fit along side the "rib" on the trunk lid. Two #10-24 3/4" countersunk screws will be installed on the back (or top) of the block before it's secured to the lid with HSRF.

    All the other hardware used are SS #10-24 1/2" bolts, Nyloc nuts and SS washers.



    After getting all the mounting hardware together I needed to position the lower and upper mounts so the Prop Rod would fully open the lid and clear the Breeze seal installed on the trunk lip.

    The final position of the REAR of the mounts was 7" from the trunk edge on the body and 16 3/4" on the lid. After several tries I finally came to the realization that the darn thing could be in multiple possible positions as long as, with the trunk lid closed, no interference occurred with the body and the lid. The closer to the front; the higher the lid will open limited by the hinges. For this Prop Rod you do need to raise the trunk lid slightly to release the latch on the rod.



    The lower end of the Prop Rod is attached to bracket that is mounted on the edge or lip of the trunk and supported by a brace attached to the side of the inner trunk wall.



    The upper end is attached to a block "glued" to the trunk lid just inside the "rib".



    The HSRF will be done after the body is removed for painting and the final installation after the final body installation.

    Thoughts ...

    Carl
    Last edited by carlewms; 08-13-2017 at 04:41 AM.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  28. #708

    Trunk Prop Rod - Bracket and Brace Details

    Here is a photo of the bracket and brace detail I posted over on the FFR forums in response to some additional questions ...



    The blue rectangles represent the walls ...

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  29. #709
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Hi Carl. Looking at your bracing from the hinge bracket to the side vertical trunk wall, that setup may present a problem. Even though the body seems to be fixed on the chassis and aluminum panels, I believe it still "floats" on the rubber pieces like grommets (bumper mounts) and bulb seal. There is going to be some movement between the body and the chassis, so I think that solid mount will cause a stress-riser on the fiberglass trunk edge lip. Or it may start to work harden the aluminum panel at the bottom end, and the aluminum panel will start to crack and fail. Things like fasteners coming loose, or fiberglass flexing and causing cracks in the fiberglass and paint. Even if the brace is cushioned with rubber mounts, I think that still may be a problem.

    Consider adding a layer or two of fiberglass cloth along that edge of the trunk on the underneath side, where the hinge bracket attaches, to just stiffen up the body along that line. Unless the trunk lid is open during a hurricane, or you drive 100 mph with the trunk full open, that will probably be good enough. Just my thoughts. I'm no expert in this area, but I do know that fiberglass likes to be able to move a bit, and when you try to fix it in place it's not happy. At least in the boats that I've played with.

    Maybe consider adding a layer of fiberglass on the trunk lid as well, where the upper bracket attaches. You could even glass in a small, thin pad with couple of studs for the bracket mount.
    Last edited by boat737; 08-13-2017 at 09:17 AM.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  30. #710
    Boat,

    Thanks ... I had planned on strengthening under the trunk lip with the HSRF but I like your suggestion to increase the strength with some fiberglass cloth.

    On the upper connection ... I had planned on countersinking the block on the side between lid and the block so that two #10 24 studs appeared under the block to attach the bracket from the prop rod. Here is a close up photo of what I had planned.



    I put a layer of fiberglass over the block or pad when I put it on.

    Do you think this will work?

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  31. #711
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    As I said, I'm no expert on this. But here is what I did for my side louvers and a few spots on the body underside to anchor electrical wire looms. A simple adhesive mount stud, HSRF to the fiberglass, and a piece of fiberglass cloth over the base. Even though there is virtually no weight on any of these studs, I just wasn't 100% confident that only the HSRF would be good enough over years of vibrations and bouncing around to continue to hold. I suppose if I could test it for 15 or 20 years, I'd have more faith that they would hold up. So I just placed a piece of fiberglass over them, and resin'd them down.

    Looking at that 1/4" or 3/8" thick aluminum mount (in you picture above), I'm thinking that the fiberglass trunk lid will want to flex at the edges of the aluminum. Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but I'm thinking of maybe trying to utilize that reinforcement ridge that runs abeam your aluminum bracket mount somehow instead of that mount base. Or if you taper down the edges of the aluminum mount so there is no hard edge to it, rather a very thin wedge to a point so that is had a tiny bit of give to it.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  32. #712
    Boat,

    Thanks ... I have a bunch of those adhesive mount studs for the side louvers and the installation of my defroster plenum.

    There are some posters over on the other forum that have not had luck with "gluing" with HSRF alone so I think your idea of laying a piece of fiberglass over the studs is an excellent one and I will adopt it.

    On the upper bracket mount ... Edward B posted another solution on my thread on the other forum. Here it is and it would eliminate the concerns about flex cracks.

    "Take a look at how I attached the top of the prop rod to the trunk lid. I angled the prop rod just slightly and attached to the rib on the underside of the lid. It wasn't too hard to fish a threaded plate through the license plate wire access hole and use HSRF to glue it in place. Makes a very strong connection and looks nice and clean.





    He says he has driven about 1000 miles with no issues.

    Carl

    PS Love the idea for using the studs to mount clips to hold the wiring in place. I was trying to figure a way to do this ... and you just provided. THANKS MUCHO
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  33. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by boat737 View Post
    As I said, I'm no expert on this. But here is what I did for my side louvers and a few spots on the body underside to anchor electrical wire looms. A simple adhesive mount stud, HSRF to the fiberglass, and a piece of fiberglass cloth over the base. Even though there is virtually no weight on any of these studs, I just wasn't 100% confident that only the HSRF would be good enough over years of vibrations and bouncing around to continue to hold. I suppose if I could test it for 15 or 20 years, I'd have more faith that they would hold up. So I just placed a piece of fiberglass over them, and resin'd them down.

    Looking at that 1/4" or 3/8" thick aluminum mount (in you picture above), I'm thinking that the fiberglass trunk lid will want to flex at the edges of the aluminum. Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but I'm thinking of maybe trying to utilize that reinforcement ridge that runs abeam your aluminum bracket mount somehow instead of that mount base. Or if you taper down the edges of the aluminum mount so there is no hard edge to it, rather a very thin wedge to a point so that is had a tiny bit of give to it.
    on my side louvers I used industrial strength Velcro holds up well and very difficult to pull off, but can be pulled off if needed.

  34. #714
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    Boat,

    Thanks ... I have a bunch of those adhesive mount studs for the side louvers and the installation of my defroster plenum.

    There are some posters over on the other forum that have not had luck with "gluing" with HSRF alone so I think your idea of laying a piece of fiberglass over the studs is an excellent one and I will adopt it.

    On the upper bracket mount ... Edward B posted another solution on my thread on the other forum. Here it is and it would eliminate the concerns about flex cracks.

    "Take a look at how I attached the top of the prop rod to the trunk lid. I angled the prop rod just slightly and attached to the rib on the underside of the lid. It wasn't too hard to fish a threaded plate through the license plate wire access hole and use HSRF to glue it in place. Makes a very strong connection and looks nice and clean."


    He says he has driven about 1000 miles with no issues.

    Carl

    PS Love the idea for using the studs to mount clips to hold the wiring in place. I was trying to figure a way to do this ... and you just provided. THANKS MUCHO
    EdwardB (Paul) is the man. I like that he uses that reinforcement area on the trunk lid for the bracket mount. That should work perfect. If I may add a suggestion, file a small chamfer around the mating edge of the bracket and the inner threaded mount. Probably isn't necessary if is is sitting on a bed of HSRF, but a very small relief around the edge of that metal piece can't hurt.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  35. #715
    Boat,

    More information from EdwardB that I am going to implement ... He is really brilliant

    I noticed there was a bolt and nut on the end of the prop rod and asked about it since the rivet on my lower mount seemed a bit weak ...

    "I drilled out the rivets and replaced with shoulder bolts. Part number 94035A176 from McMaster. First because I turned the top bracket around. But then I went ahead and did both because they looked better and seemed stronger than the original rivets. The nut you see was during mockup. Final assembly I used a nylon-insert lock nut."

    FBI ... "Freakin Brillant Idea" ... this will allow me to also put the upper bracket under the rib a lot easier.

    Carl
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  36. #716
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Glad you're liking some of the ideas I've posted. But full disclosure, flipping that upper bracket around I can't take credit for. Saw that on another thread sometime back that detailed mounting the Finishline prop rod. Sharing ideas and picking off the ones you like for your own build is a great part of this community.

    Saw the comment about some people not having luck with using HSRF alone for bonding. Hasn't been my experience, and I don't recall seeing that. Regardless, adding the glass cloth certainly doesn't hurt. But properly installed I'll bet you could break that stud off the perforated base before the HSRF lets go. One of the keys (and maybe why reports of letting go?) is to get the surface properly roughed up. Many adhesives have trouble adhering to a shiny/glossy surface. I use 30 grit paper to prepare the surface, and then clean with lacquer thinner. Gives the HSRF a really solid bond. BTW, since you mention using them for things other than just the louvers, highly recommend that you consider using a couple for the rear splash guards. Instead of using a through-bolt onto the outside of the body. Like this picture from my last build. You can see how the glass is roughed up in this pic too.

    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  37. #717
    Well Used Member boat737's Avatar
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    As I said, EdwardB is the man. Thank you for all your detailed posts and PM help. I've done a few of my "own ideas" on the build, but by far a lot more ideas from you good folks that share the wealth here. Sorry Carl to interrupt your thread, now back to your regularly scheduled build. Keep up the good work.
    If Brute Force doesn't work, you're not using enough of it.
    Bought a partially completed MK4. The Basic Stuff: MK4 Complete Kit #8439. The Extra Stuff: Wilwood's, 17" Halibrands, Stainless brake and fuel lines, Breeze cooling and Battery mount.
    The Old Fart Stuff: Heater, Seat Heaters, Footbox Fresh Air, Stereo, Keyless ignition, Power Steering, Hyd Clutch.
    The Young and Dumb Stuff: 427w Dart, TKO600, 3 link Moser M9/Ford 9", 3.5:1, Eaton TruTrac Posi

  38. #718
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlewms View Post
    " It wasn't too hard to fish a threaded plate through the license plate wire access hole and use HSRF to glue it in place. Makes a very strong connection and looks nice and clean.
    I'm a little confused about this statement Of Edwards. Could this be explained in better detail please.

  39. #719
    Bill,

    Funny you should ask ... I am trying to fish it through today ... I am checking his original thread. If I cannot find it there here is what I will try.

    I plan on drilling the two holes then run the a string through each hole over to the opening to pull the plate over to the rib. I will squeeze either paste some HSRF on the plate or squeeze some through the holes. Before the HSRF hardens I will run the bolts through the holes to clear any HSRF.

    We will see if this works ....
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  40. #720
    Bill,

    My grand experiment did not work ... I could get the backing plate in position with HSRF on it fine.

    I held it in place with the string until I thought (stress thought) it hardened enough so that I could clean out the holes and run the bolts to let it cure. That is where the plan fell apart. I either did not wait long enough for the HSRF to cure or it wasn't enough to hold it because as I cleaned out the holes the plate came loose.

    Edit: In the meantime EdwardB posted the method he used to get the backing plate in position on the other forum. Here it is:

    "There's just one piece to fish through. The nut plate shown in the first picture. I used a piece of 1/16-inch piano wire with some double back tape wrapped around the end to temporarily hold the nut plate. Any kind of relatively stiff wire could be used. Then fished this through the trunk license plate access opening into position over the already drilled holes. Took a few times practicing (without HSRF!) and getting the right bend on the wire. But not too hard. Once over the holes, used some machine screws to pull into place while the HSRF set up. Then pulled off the wire."

    Carl
    Last edited by carlewms; 08-19-2017 at 03:55 PM.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

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