818 Update Being Sent Today

[David]

I honestly don't know what that much power is like. It actually scares me. I am hoping that a third party traction control unit can help.

Racelogic may work well...

[FFR-ADV]

I like the idea of traction control David!

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php...ontrol?start=6

RLTC6DIA Adjustable Traction Control (Up to 6 Cyl) + Launch Control ABS + Digital Adjuster £695 approximately $1,081.91 US at current exchange rates

Faster times probably still come from proper use of braking and throttle control than the foot down approach, leaving it to smooth out the rough edges and possibly save a car from a spin out and possible accident in unexpected traction loss situations (sand, water, oil...)

There are plenty of videos of turbo boost onset sending a Super Car into oncoming stopped traffic when turning left at a stoplight and accelerating hard.



Traction control helps but an engaged brain is even more important!

Are such devices allowed in autocross or open track?

Thanks!

[Dave Smith]

Does anyone know what spec the 818kg/1800lb target weight is being based on?

It seems they are using a 2006 WRX donor for their testbed, so can we assume that they are using stock WRX seats, stock brakes, stock wheels, etc to achieve the 1800lb goal?

Seems if they are doing that, you can drop about 50-75lbs through the use of lighter seats, brakes, and wheels.

Or is the 818kg weight being based on the R version while the street version is expected to be heavier?

The target goal of 818kg was 1800 lbs. That goal, while important, is one that can be pulled up or down quite significantly with mods. Believe it or not, the 818R is the heavier of the two, with full cage and the race fuel cell weighs more than the deleted seat saves. Still, right now I can have the boys publish the scaled weights of reach. The magazines weigh cars with a full tank of gas, so the 818R suffered more. I think the 818S is solidly in the 1800 target weight, but the R is above 1900 lbs. I'll get you guys the wet/curb weights in the am.

Dave

[metalmaker12]

Thanks Dave, we are all wondering the curb weights. My father and I can't wait to to come to the open house to pay our 818S pre-order in full and ask a some questions. This is getting exciting and my date is August 17 2013 so I am going nuts. Being a Subaru guy involved with a well known R.I based Subaru speed shop (Wicked Innovations), I hope to help further promote this great project car. Thanks for this awesome car Dave and FFR and all the others involved.

Chris Marciano

[FFR-ADV]

Dave, Jim & 818 Development team

Thank you for helping to extend our reach to a car that would otherwise be beyond it. Hitting the weight goals on the 818S is not a trivial achievement. Late in projects it is all to easy to solve problems by adding weight. Jim and his development team have avoided that which is evidence of their skill. But the best evidence is the performance of the 818R on the track. Wow! That an 818R is slightly heavier with fuel cell, aero kit, fire suppression system is not surprising. Clearly the benefit of having these additions greatly outweighs the few pounds that adds to the car. through both safety and performance Thank you for bringing your passion and commitment to seeing this project through. I am looking forward to building an 818S this fall.

Cheers!

Steve

[longislandwrx]

Speaking of what Chris said...

Has there been any talk from FF about making/taking payments? Or when they'd like full payment? I kind of thought I would have received a call from them by now to start ironing out the order details but I understand how busy they are.


I am surprised that the R is that much heavier... losing a seat, windshield, muffler, door latches. etc seems like it would make up for a fuel cell and some extra tubing... Like Steve said though the R has a lot more safety systems installed and accessories in place. I look forward to the actual numbers.

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

Speaking of what Chris said...

Has there been any talk from FF about making/taking payments? Or when they'd like full payment? I kind of thought I would have received a call from them by now to start ironing out the order details but I understand how busy they are.

With their other kits, you make final payment before you have it shipped or pick it up. They KNOW if you don't buy it, someone else will (and will real soon).

[Silvertop]

With their other kits, you make final payment before you have it shipped or pick it up. They KNOW if you don't buy it, someone else will (and will real soon).

True. But it is probable that FFR will be looking for something more than the $99 preorder deposit before they begin manufacturing a customer's kit. $1000 or so, or maybe 10%. In any event, they will need to ask the customer what he/she wishes for options. Color, top/no top, heater (if available), diffuser, wing, etc. I'm guessing that will all happen about 6 weeks before customer kit production. But I'm just speculating.

[Wayne Presley]

I believe that the balance is due 10 business days before ship date on the kits.

[Dave Smith]

We've got a production scheduling meeting this week and should be in close contact with guys who have orders on the books shortly (maybe 2 weeks for sure).

With respect to the actual measured weight of the cars, I'll be posting the full vehicle spec sheets today on our website for the 818R and 818S. But here are the scaled weights for the driving cars so far.

818R: Curb weight 1906 lbs. This was with all fluids, painted body (stock kit will not need paint), street fuel tank with 10 gallons fuel, and aero parts, Subaru harness (un-modified-no wire diet), fire suppression, and GTM seats. When we added the race fuel cell and changed to a Kirkey roadracing seat, we got 1950 lbs (fuel amount was estimated at 1/2 tank). Road & Track scaled the car but FILLED the 18 gallon fuel cell and the car came in at 2,011 lbs full.

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs. This was with windshield, full street set-up, all fluids, stock fuel tank with unknown fuel level (estimated at 1/2 full), and utilizing WRX rather than imprezza running gear (Imprezza non-turbo would net maybe 50-90 lbs less!). This was with GTM seats rather than stock subie seats (which would be heavier by a bit).

Conclusion: I am happy that the design team completed the goals of 1800 lbs/818kg. The car CAN be made lighter than the ones we've built and tested. The cars can also be made heavier with stereos, HVAC, etc. An aftermarket harness would save a ton and make the car easier to build (its on the list but not done). The weight range is pretty large, but I am very pleased with where the car is and it will not change as we've signed off on the design and those chassis numbers/weights will not change beyond the variability of builds. We are also leaving the door wide open for some carbon body panels and the guys have some tricks up their sleeves for unsprung weight reduction, and perhaps an ultra-light track star in the year ahead.

[JAubin]

Awesome numbers! That's really solid to be able to hit the 1800 lb goal. Assuming the 818S had 5 gal of fuel in it, it would weight 1817lbs without fuel, but with all other fluids. Within 0.9% of target? Yeah that's really good. Congrats, can't wait until these start rolling (ummm shipping) out!

With regards to new versions, has any thought been given to if when something, say an ultra-light track star, or other top option is announced that people that have pre-ordered can transfer their order to one of the "next" options? With the understanding that it would be a longer lead time, and that since there isn't a design yet there's no guarantees. I'm about ready to pull the trigger on an 818S, but I'm also extremely interested in future developments (before I'd receive my kit in any case) , and while I'm over the top excited at the prospect of building the S as it stands now, want to consider every option...

The possibilities of this program are pretty astounding, I can only imagine that the team there has to be pretty excited to start looking at some other options....tho it sounds like they may have already been doing that

[sponaugle]

Racelogic may work well...

I like the idea of traction control David!

http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php...ontrol?start=6

RLTC6DIA Adjustable Traction Control (Up to 6 Cyl) + Launch Control ABS + Digital Adjuster £695 approximately $1,081.91 US at current exchange rates

Are such devices allowed in autocross or open track?

Thanks!

I have a racelogic system for my GTO (Twin Turbo LS2 700whp). The Racelogic system is very very good... and very programmable. You have an in car dial that you can turn to select how much slip you want, and at each level there are programmable curves that dictate how much power is pulled to get traction back.

There certainly is some calibration, but the system can handle that. It uses per cylinder fuel cut (cutting fuel for a single combustion cycle) to reduce engine torque. Since it selects which cylinder and the duration, is can be pretty effective at cutting back power even in a turbo environment (which an ignition retard system can't really do). You also get launch control and flat foot shifting, but of course those options are already available for the WRX ECUs.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs. This was with windshield, full street set-up, all fluids, stock fuel tank with unknown fuel level (estimated at 1/2 full), and utilizing WRX rather than imprezza running gear (Imprezza non-turbo would net maybe 50-90 lbs less!). This was with GTM seats rather than stock subie seats (which would be heavier by a bit).

That is very impressive, and congratulations to the team. I can't wait to drive this car!

Jeff

[Oppenheimer]

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs = MISSION ACCOMPLISHED (the goal wasn't 'under' 1800 lbs. Plus if you round off, its 1800). Congratulations.

The magazines weigh cars with a full tank of gas...

That always seemed silly to me, as it penalizes cars with more fuel capacity. The importance of the magazines number is not 'how much will it weigh when I use it', but rather 'how does it stack up against other cars'. For that it would seem the most logical way to compare would be to include all the fluids required for operation, except fuel.

Another way to compare would be to include enough fuel to travel, say, 100 miles or something. That way you are giving advantage where it belongs. If one car gets better mileage, but has a larger tank anyway, its given an advantage, rather than penalized.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

I always thought the weight goal was for a 818 Kg 'world car' with a regularly aspirated impreza engine available everywhere. Sounds to me like the outcome was actually less than 818 Kg by a pinch. Pretty darn good work!

[Darkpiggy's dad]

For someone with knowledge of these things, how much weight could be saved with an aftermarket wiring harness? I don't have any idea. My car will not have ac, and unless my wife insists, a stereo. The engine will be fi, and I am weighing traction control and abs because I have two nineteen year olds who will want to carve some new corners with it.

[longislandwrx]

That's 110 lbs of gas in the 818R... Shouldn't be too hard to get it under 1800 without a full monster fuel cell.

I think the weight savings of the parts I already have should get the weight down about 45 lbs. The upgraded brakes will be where the real numbers come off. That fire system probably weighed a good 20 lbs and there's at least 10lbs to be found in the harness.

I think you guys killed it. congrats.

[bnr32jason]

Thanks for the weight numbers!

Interesting, It seems like a decent amount of weight can still be lost from a stock body 818S.

Stock WRX 4-pot calipers have been weighed at 24.5lbs for both. A comparably sized Wilwood kit (12.2" vs 11.5") would be 8.2lbs for both calipers (plus maybe 3lbs for brake pads) so that's eliminating 13lbs of unsprung weight for just calipers. Wilwood rotors with hats would be 21lbs for both, stock rotors are 28lbs. So that's 20lbs of unsprung weight savings just by changing to Wilwood brakes in the front. You can sell the stock brakes for $500 or so on the forums as well.

I'm not sure how much GTM seats weigh (anyone know) but something like the Corbeau FX1 Pro comes in at 19lbs.

Most of the 818 testing pictures I've seen have it fitted with Enkei RP-F1 wheels so I don't think we'll find much weight loss there unless you spend significantly more for forged wheels.

The wiring harness will be a significant "easy" weight loss of about 10lbs as others have said.

Some of us will have to fit a heater/defroster system for registration requirements (WA state is one) so I'm assuming we will have to add 15-20lbs for an aftermarket setup.

NA guys will see a big weight savings with the simplified exhaust system and lack of turbocharger. I could see some NA guys dropping into the 16xx range if they try hard.

[bbjones121]

The cars can also be made heavier with stereos, HVAC, etc.

I like to hear this. Being in Denver, it can get pretty cold, quickly. A heater would be nice. Definitely going to have a stereo also.

[longislandwrx]

So that's 20lbs of unsprung weight savings just by changing to Wilwood brakes in the front.

even better, the 12" wildwood kit actually saves 28 lbs.

http://www.wrxforums.com/forums/83-3...-interest.html

[metalmaker12]

I am not a big fan of the willwoods, I have had two sets over the years and I had a lot of leaking problems, and even had a caliper snap. I have had better success with the sti brembos and 4 pots. I also had a set of nice stop tech fronts, and those were really nice, but wicked expensive

[Silvertop]

NA guys will see a big weight savings with the simplified exhaust system and lack of turbocharger. I could see some NA guys dropping into the 16xx range if they try hard.

True -- Although it is likely that the NA guys will generally not be quite as rabid about saving weight as some of the turbo guys -- since maximum performance probably won't their primary objective. I'll be happy to save some weight due to my NA build-- but I'm not going to sacrifice having a stereo or some sort of heating system to do it. Street toy, dont'cha know...........

[RM1SepEx]

My goal of 10 lbs per loaded HP makes it easy... add 100 lbs to loaded weight est (2300lbs is 1900 + 2 @ 200 lbs adults) I just need to tune for 230 RWHP! A street machine with occasional autocross need not diet so much.

Dan

[Silvertop]

My goal of 10 lbs per loaded HP makes it easy... add 100 lbs to loaded weight est (2300lbs is 1900 + 2 @ 200 lbs adults) I just need to tune for 230 RWHP! A street machine with occasional autocross need not diet so much.

Dan

Sounds like a sensible target to me.......... Based on the mods I've made to my NA engine, I probably won't be able to manage much better than 11 1/2 to 12 lbs per HP (at the wheels) -- and only then after I've ejected my passenger!

[AZPete]

". . . how much weight could be saved with an aftermarket wiring harness?"

Maybe someone knows the weight savings of a dieted WRX harness but for my FFR roadster all the OE harnesses weighed 65 lbs. and the dieted version was only 14 lbs. . . . that was 51 lbs. cut away!
Can we stop talking about weight, please? I pigged out last weekend at a backyard BBQ.
Pete

[bnr32jason]

I am not a big fan of the willwoods, I have had two sets over the years and I had a lot of leaking problems, and even had a caliper snap. I have had better success with the sti brembos and 4 pots. I also had a set of nice stop tech fronts, and those were really nice, but wicked expensive

The only problem with Brembos, and the reason I won't be using the ones I bought is that they are HEAVY, especially if you use stock rotors.

STI Brembo front calipers weigh 11lbs each with pads and comparable Wilwood calipers weigh 6lbs each with pads. The rotors come in at 20lbs each versus a comparable Wilwood rotor at 14lbs with hat. The biggest downfall to brakes like Wilwood (and many aftermarket brakes) is you have to rebuild them more often, but rebuilding a Wilwood caliper, even a 6-pot is only about $10 in parts and fairly easy to do.

Now 2-piece rotors for the Brembo brakes would help, but those are very expensive, especially compared to Wilwood rotors.

[longislandwrx]

yes, and the 04 brembos command a premium.

running gyrodiscs or dbas will save a few lbs but for $700?

http://www.girodisc.com/Girodisc-Fro...Ti_p_5514.html


metal what issues have you had with them... do you think they will translate to an 1800lb car?

[WIS89]

Dave-

The only problem is that when you put a fat guy like me in the driver's seat, it's going to be like that shark with one fin missing, always swimming in a circle; I'll end up driving in a left handed circle because of all the added ummm "mass" in the driver's seat!

Congratulations again on an exceptional concept, incredibly thorough process, and soon to be production!! I am still amazed watching from afar. I can only imagine the excitement and pride that you and your team must have for this new platform. I can't wait to see the builds get started. Awesome!

Regards,

Steve

We've got a production scheduling meeting this week and should be in close contact with guys who have orders on the books shortly (maybe 2 weeks for sure).

With respect to the actual measured weight of the cars, I'll be posting the full vehicle spec sheets today on our website for the 818R and 818S. But here are the scaled weights for the driving cars so far.

818R: Curb weight 1906 lbs. This was with all fluids, painted body (stock kit will not need paint), street fuel tank with 10 gallons fuel, and aero parts, Subaru harness (un-modified-no wire diet), fire suppression, and GTM seats. When we added the race fuel cell and changed to a Kirkey roadracing seat, we got 1950 lbs (fuel amount was estimated at 1/2 tank). Road & Track scaled the car but FILLED the 18 gallon fuel cell and the car came in at 2,011 lbs full.

818S: Curb weight 1847 lbs. This was with windshield, full street set-up, all fluids, stock fuel tank with unknown fuel level (estimated at 1/2 full), and utilizing WRX rather than imprezza running gear (Imprezza non-turbo would net maybe 50-90 lbs less!). This was with GTM seats rather than stock subie seats (which would be heavier by a bit).

Conclusion: I am happy that the design team completed the goals of 1800 lbs/818kg. The car CAN be made lighter than the ones we've built and tested. The cars can also be made heavier with stereos, HVAC, etc. An aftermarket harness would save a ton and make the car easier to build (its on the list but not done). The weight range is pretty large, but I am very pleased with where the car is and it will not change as we've signed off on the design and those chassis numbers/weights will not change beyond the variability of builds. We are also leaving the door wide open for some carbon body panels and the guys have some tricks up their sleeves for unsprung weight reduction, and perhaps an ultra-light track star in the year ahead.

[0100]

Awesome job FFR on making weight!! With lots of spots to still shave weight. Yeah and guys don't forget the weight of the pilot! I am down to 147 lbs (mainly because I have a fight next month) but I definitely could stay at this weight and plan to.

The 818R is going to be a track beast. I can't wait to build an 818R Ultra-Light and put the hurt on everything on the track.

[Darkpiggy's dad]

Thanks AZPete. Dropping 50 pounds with a wire harness diet really makes me happy. Hopefully a wiring specialist will market a harness for the 818. Designing automotive wiring is out of my league.

[Thorne]

using the 16bit ecu you could do boost by gear and dial in the proper boost for your specfic setup.