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Thread: How Much is Too Much?

  1. #1
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    How Much is Too Much?

    Currently in the "saving" process, so all I have is time to think and dream and dreams keep getting bigger and bigger. The only thing consistent is the '33. The 818 was appealing at first, but the '33 is definitely the car for me. Especially since the '33 is by far the wife's favorite. The kids have dreams of big flames running down the sides.

    Anyway, the engine I want to put in this thing keeps getting bigger and bigger, or rather, more powerful and more powerful. What started as "320rwhp will be fine" has turned into "Why not 450rwhp".

    So my question is, given I stick with Factory Five supplied parts, the Wilwood brake upgrade, and a 3-link suspension, what should I realistically be looking to achieve?

    Goals are street driveable, with some autocross and a track day sprinkled in.

    I keep seeing cars by companies like Ridetech, Hot Rod magazine, etc and such with 500+hp engines and not a whole lot of explanation of what it took to get that power to the ground.

    Clear goals are the only way I'm going to accomplish this. I can save as much as I need to, but the more saving and the more delay there is in actually starting the project. Mimicking the Ridetech '33 will be a lot more expensive than building a car I can actually use and have fun with the kids and family.

  2. #2
    EFI Rules and Carbs Drool Arrowhead's Avatar
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    Big wide sticky tires and big HP = broken parts. It will go quickly from a "donor" build to everything custom aftermarket. Hey if you can fit it in your budget, why not. But for me, I'd rather be driving it than staring at a pile of expensive aftermarket parts and not enough money to finish it.

    Personally, if I were to build another one, I'd go for the coyote and factory control pack. Over 400 HP wit ha custom tune, totally streetable and good gas mileage to boot.

  3. #3
    Senior Member 68GT500MAN's Avatar
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    My build is using a 347w with dual carbs. It will be right at 450hp.
    Doug

  4. #4
    Senior Member maczter's Avatar
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    First of all, welcome to the madness, it is a sickness that I don't think you can, or want to, cure. Having fun with the family in your build should be as rewarding as the eventual driving. My son and stepson have been involved in mine, and I would not trade that for anything.

    Personally, I am running over 420 hp at the crank, which means probably somewhere around 350-375 at the wheel. In my opinion, more than enough to smoke the tires at will given the power to weight ratio in this car. Ridetech spent over $150k on their car to achieve what they did. Most of the other high $$ and HP cars are for show, with no reasonable expectation of street or even track driving. But then there is that adage that too much is never enough...

    If you are looking to track drive this car, the upgrades you mention are worth it as well, and you might consider the QA1 shocks and springs Dan Ruth sells. I received some advice from a veteran builder back when I started my parts buying spree that I will pass on to you. Buy what you need WHEN you need it not in advance. You WILL change your mind many times during the build. That being said, your budget will change as your needs and tastes do...a money pit is kinda applicable (but fun).

    No one can decide what is best for you but you, but, that again in my opinion, anything under 450-500 rwhp is reasonable given a workable budget, tire rubber and the FFR suspension.

    Have fun!
    Last edited by maczter; 02-27-2014 at 03:55 PM.
    FFR HR #530
    Race car theme, Tim Whitaker roll bar, Autometer Autolite Gauges, Satin Black, SBC 383/700R4, 8.8 rear with Cobra Brakes, 3.29 gear, Boyd Tank, QA1 springs and shocks,

    My build blog: http://jacks33hotrod.blogspot.com/

  5. #5
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    Too much is when you run out of room for things like bodywork............oh........and a radiator.


  6. #6
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    There seems to be a horsepower thing with these cars. However, driving schools are better investment than mega power. For track days and auto crosses the driver is 80%+ and the car/power only 20%. Not really what anybody wants to hear.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Jay Mann's Avatar
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    I second the vote for the Coyote with the control pack. Its light, easy to install with the kit, 400 hp and a warranty. Plus the car runs like OEM.
    www.33coyote.com
    Built with the help of my dad and sons
    coyote/TKO 600, Wilwood Brakes,Boyds tank, QA1 shocks
    Speedhut Gages, rag top, bike fenders, power steering

    "Never let physics or common sense get in the way of a good idea"

  8. #8
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    Having ridiculous amounts of power is great for bragging rights, but what are you going to do.........take dyno run sheets to the local cruise?

    My dream build started out as a money no object ideal where little would remain in the realm of "normal" for one of these kits. A Dart-blocked 447ci carburetted SBC that revs like crazy, idles like it's really p*ssed off and yet (the engine builder claims) is perfectly streetable. It produces around 640 hp with a really flat torque curve in the 550 to 600 ft/lbs area. I found a site one day that you input horsepower and the car's weight and it gives you a bhp/ton figure. It also gives you a list of supercars that are in the same ball-park. No word of a lie..........the result I got with a car weight of 2400lbs said "You have so much horsepower you don't need to worry about other cars".

    I thought that was funny, but it's also an eye-opener and reality check. I don't want to build something that's a daily driver. I want to build something that sounds nasty, but is at least useable. It's clear from every video I've ever watched of people test driving their newly built FF '33's that there's more than enough power in even a modest engine to smoke the tires. So what's the point in spending oodles of cash to get power if you can't get it to the ground? And why spend that money when even a crate motor will get you up the road fast enough to lose your licence in a heart-beat?

    So my focus has changed. I figure spend money on eye-candy that will give the engine bay a wow factor and yet still produce more than enough power. I found another Dart blocked 427 SBC engine (light weight) that comes with an 8-stack Inglese EZ-EFI and MSD Ignition that produces 525hp and costs $3000 less than the 447 above and I'm sure it's more livable with than the other engine. It certainly looks more sexy

    Going back to the OP's post, the Ridetech car was first and foremost a development hack and promotional tool for the company. It was built for Autocross and not as a daily driver. I'm sure the build cost to Ridetech was somewhat lower than if you or I tried to duplicate the car and that task would only be worth doing if you were going to use the car for the exact same purpose. Sure, they ran it down a strip a few times and it was pretty quick, but if you watch videos of it in action there's tire smoke visible which means all that horsepower is going to waste. It seems the car really excels in stop-start competitions. That's a product of light weight being accelerated by a lot of power, but more by big brakes hauling down the light car to a stop.

    If you want your car to be a good all-round performer spend some money on suspension and braking improvements and keep the weight of the car under control. You don't need to spend crazy money on the engine for a light car. Like others are saying 400hp from a modern power-plant will get the job done, plus you'll spend more time having fun driving and less in the gas-station.

  9. #9
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    Thanks for the awesome replies everybody.

    I'm trying to find a convincing argument to build my own engine, but doing the math, building my own EFI engine capable of 400+ horsepower will cost more than just using a Coyote. There's a part of me that wants the satisfaction of building it myself, but knowing that this project is going to be a huge time sink as it is, I'll probably be happier with a bit of plug and play. It also falls into my ultimate goals. I want a modern car with classic looks. Someone very smart once said to me, "Before you worry about how fast you can go, make sure you can stop once you're there."

    Mcrumay, thanks for the reality check on the driving school. I was recently schooled at a track where my wife bought me a supercar drive as a gift. I got to take the Mercedes SLS AMG around a local track (Autobahn Country Club in Joliet, IL) along with some friends in other supercars. The guy doing the pacing was in a Ford Mustang. The Mustang kept slowing down even though he was followed by Ferrari's, Lambo's, etc. When we were done we spoke with the driver of the Mustang and asked him about his car. He said it wasn't his car, he was just using it for the pacing. So we thought it must have been a specially modified car. Nope, it was a stock V6, not even a V8. He chose to drive that car to prove a few points. One that we had NO IDEA what we were doing. Two, we had no business behind the wheel of a supercar, and most importantly, and he was really cool about this so he was in no way trying to be offensive, he said "Just because you can get a car up to 120 mph on a freeway doesn't mean you know how to drive".

    Moral of the story is, I have every intention of getting driving lessons. It's on my gift list for my wife to get me in the next few years. Maybe I'll get the guy that schooled us at the track. Turns out he was an instructor for their drive school.

  10. #10
    Senior Member CHOTIS BILL's Avatar
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    I know beauty is a personal thing but I think the Coyote engine with the engine cover kit is a work of art. Mike Forte is also having a sale on them. I don’t know Mike but I though this might help you make up you mind.


    Bill Lomenick
    Chotis Bill

  11. #11
    Senior Member Kalstar's Avatar
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    400 hp in a 2400lbs car starts to boarder on insanity. Of course gearing has a lot to do with it but at 400hp in a 33 has a power to weight better then a C6 Z06 and that car runs mid 3sec 0-60 and 11's on street tires. More then enough power to know that you are still king of the road. JMHO. Btw I have a 420hp 2400 lbs car. A 500+hp Vette and a 550+hp MB vs the (light weight) F5R = no contest. I know this from actual knowledge.
    Last edited by Kalstar; 03-01-2014 at 09:42 AM.

  12. #12
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    MiniVanMan, I would suggest you try and get a ride in some members cars to get an idea of how much power will be satisfying for you. Either a Roadster or a 33 should give you a good idea. Some people are perfectly happy and comfortable with 300 hp. Some of us need more. Whatever power you make it is important to have your car properly setup to handle that power. Enjoy the journey. Cheers.

  13. #13
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    This sure seems like a hell of a deal.

    http://www.fordracingpartsdirect.com...-6007-m50k.htm

    I'm not buying anything right now, as the "saving" part is contingent upon collecting interest over a few years. This gives me a good idea of cost assessment for the project. If this kind of deal still exists (there are ALWAYS deals to be found), then my $10k engine budget would also cover the transmission. That would be incredible.

    I'm doing cost assessments and the price of this project is well more than double that of the kit itself.

    $25k for kit plus extras.

    $10k for engine and transmission

    Another $2k for rear end.

    That's before ANY customization starts to happen. Then we're talking wheels, paint, $3k for a soft top, ISIS?? (I'm no stranger to wiring up complex electronics but ISIS sure sounds appealing), and other goodies that will nickel and dime me. This is easily a $45-50k project.

    Is that about on target? Should I expect more? Everybody's goals are different, as well as budgets, but if it's typical to crawl past 50k, I'm going to have to make some adjustments.

  14. #14
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    Bodywork and paint are major items and here is another downer. I live in PA and when I register it I will have to pay 6% tax on the kit, engine, transmission, rear and all the other components.
    Put all that in your budget.

  15. #15
    Ol Skool
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    I like mcrumays earlier advice. get some driving school time and spend your money on tires. really. Driving schools are worth the investment and you'll make better use of the tires. Any V-8 you put in will be plenty of power. At 2400lbs a hot 4 cylinder correctly geared will rock. If you make too much power just put a stiffer throttle return spring on it

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