Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[C.Plavan]

Glad you made it back with a running car! I'm sure many will find comfort in that fact.
Chad, what track config were you running at Buttonwillow?

Were you running advanced group with Extreme Speed? You must have been getting caught it some mad traffic with that spread.

Thanks Brandon. We ran CW #13 the same as you. Since I had never run with them before, and was testing a new car they threw me in Advanced Intermediate. It had the dumb point by rules too. They said I could go to the higher group after the 2:01 but I would of lost a full session. I was running the same times as the advanced group (one guy was running 1:57's though). It was a little frustrating, but I was just there to test the car.

Other good data:
Oil temp: Even with my 8 qts of oil and cooler, the oil was getting to 240 degrees. I am going to vent the rear bumper more. The damn thing traps heat. I cant imagine the temps without a cooler. Element Tuning says they can see above 250 in their race car.
Coolant temp: never got above 220. Mostly in the 210 range.
AWIC temp: Never got over 120 degree's that I recall. I will look at logs. (around 75 degrees mid day)
Brakes: I'm not a fan of the stock pedal and Wilwoods. You have to stand on the brakes with alot of force. I plan on upgrading the pads to a racing set I know well to see if that helps with bite.
After a good run, tighten down all your hose clamps on you coolant lines/tubes. I caught one weeping on the engine (thanks to under engine tray)
Ditch the center rear view mirror- it was in my line of sight to where I could not see apexs etc. I took it off and was much more comfortable. The side mirrors (convex) provide more than enough vision.

PS I asked Santa this AM for a bigger turbo and injectors for Xmas. I need to see where I would fall in ST1. The TD04 is not good for racing because it poops out too soon. Not to mention I have 272 cams, so its really miss matched.

[C.Plavan]

Hey! First place! Faster is always nice, but a great start even with the gremlins! Congrats!

Lap times are surely to drop, so I wouldn't put too much stock in that right now. And high-speed push at 9deg AOA was almost a certain thing given FFR's experience.

Best,
-j

But remember that was without the front canards or door vents. I was in uncharted territory.

[Santiago]

But remember that was without the front canards or door vents. I was in uncharted territory.

Sure. Guess I was never convinced the design of those door vents would really improve front aero load. I suspect they're better for lowering drag as they vent a lot of pent up air. And canards are really not direct-downforce producing devices; they're air-directing devices. So if they give you better control of the airflow to something that would produce the downforce (like a wing), then you'll see significant gains. Otherwise, they're trim devices (also good for lowering drag in some instances).

Looking forward to seeing where you end up with the rear wing's AOA. That'll give some sense of what increase in downforce the FFR supplied pieces are producing.

Best,
-j

[D Clary]

I have had the issue with willwoods before with the high pedal effort. It makes heal toe difficult. I never found a good solution. I hope you can help find it. I don't think I really understand boost creep. If you have the boost set at 16 psi how does it go higher? Is it a slow reaction by the electronics? I have a manual boost control on my Mustang and it is rock solid. Also when you get a chance how did you tie your car down in the front and what inner panel did you delete for the door vents. Glad all went well on the shakedown

[C.Plavan]

What do you have the front tied down to? Good luck!

The radiator support. Not the best place, but it works. I'll come up with a better solution like the rear when I have some time. Its all that you can do with the splitter on. I could go through the LCA's, but I'm not a fan on pulling on suspension that way.

[Mechie3]

Glad you made it unscathed! The stock TD04 is good for DD and autocross where you spend most of your time between 3-5.5k rpms. My VF39 2.0WRX was much better on top end (though bottom end for DD sucked IMO). It's too bad the brace is so restrictive for easy turbo drop ins. If I knew how to weld and not just melt metal I'd make a new one.

[C.Plavan]

I have had the issue with willwoods before with the high pedal effort. It makes heal toe difficult. I never found a good solution. I hope you can help find it. I don't think I really understand boost creep. If you have the boost set at 16 psi how does it go higher? Is it a slow reaction by the electronics? I have a manual boost control on my Mustang and it is rock solid. Also when you get a chance how did you tie your car down in the front and what inner panel did you delete for the door vents. Glad all went well on the shakedown

Boost Creep- Wastegate cant keep up and it over boosts.

For the door vents I left off the triangle piece behind shock area, and the rear splash guards.

If they sent you the 818S door trim aluminum, you can cut those to use as shields or deflectors to keep rocks from hitting the coolant tubes and AWIC lines. Those pieces I removed did that job prior.

[C.Plavan]

Glad you made it unscathed! The stock TD04 is good for DD and autocross where you spend most of your time between 3-5.5k rpms. My VF39 2.0WRX was much better on top end (though bottom end for DD sucked IMO). It's too bad the brace is so restrictive for easy turbo drop ins. If I knew how to weld and not just melt metal I'd make a new one.

How much bigger is the Blouch DOM 1.5 than the TD04? You think it will fit? I dont think Brandon had any issues.

People kept on commenting how they liked how I was throwing flames out the exhaust......

[Brando]

My Blouch DOM 1.5 bolted right on. The only thing I changed was swapping my exhaust to a bellmouth because the wastegate was striking. It was quite a bit bigger than my TD04, in fact is was noticeably bigger than my TD05. I noticed no turbo lag from my DOM over my TD05... in fact despite what all the Dyno graphs show...the DOM feels much snappier and obviously does not run out of wind up top.

I'm glad to hear you say that about the brakes. I actually brought this up to Joe at Sema. With the R6's heated I can stand on the pedal with nearly all my force and the tires still won't lock up. I really does make heel-toe hard.
Joe was saying that when they switched to racing pads it make a huge difference. They squeak a lot, but Racecar. I am ordering some pads from Willwood here in the next week.
Oil temps were that high? Based on that I think I am going to go with that larger 2 fan oil cooler your were thinking about upgrading to. I wonder what my temps were climbing to without the oil cooler...and if that was one of leading factors to my last engine failure.

Great to hear the AWIC is doing its job...and i'm glad someone had some real data to verify that. I found myself having my mirror block the apex quite a bit as well, more so at BW than SOW. Cotton corners and Grapevine were the worst.

My car won't be ready to run until Jan. Hopefully you find the time to do a non NASA event with me.

[JeromeS13]

Other good data:

Coolant temp: never got above 220. Mostly in the 210 range.

I'm glad everything held together and you have some good working data. However, 220 is way too hot for these Subaru motors... 210 is pretty much as hot as I would recommend running it.

[Mechie3]

How much bigger is the Blouch DOM 1.5 than the TD04? You think it will fit? I dont think Brandon had any issues.

People kept on commenting how they liked how I was throwing flames out the exhaust......

Flames = awesome. Catless exhaust? Muffler?

I don't know if the turbo is the issue as much as the wastegate placement. I remember seeing a thread where someone modified the brace to fit a VF series turbo and someone else modified a VF39/43 (STI turbos) because they had 1/8" clearance for the wastegate arm.

[C.Plavan]

Flames = awesome. Catless exhaust? Muffler?

I don't know if the turbo is the issue as much as the wastegate placement. I remember seeing a thread where someone modified the brace to fit a VF series turbo and someone else modified a VF39/43 (STI turbos) because they had 1/8" clearance for the wastegate arm.

No muffler or cat because racecar. Thats the cause of Boost Creep issue.

[C.Plavan]

I'm glad everything held together and you have some good working data. However, 220 is way too hot for these Subaru motors... 210 is pretty much as hot as I would recommend running it.

That is from the aftermarket gauge that is tapped into the heater return. My AP showed lower.

[metalmaker12]

210 is a pretty good range for max, you could get up to 230 for short burst ( not recommend , but would hold it for short term) but no higher at all, so 220 is pretty close and you should shoot for sub 200 like 195-200 max to play it safe for street and like 215-230 for track

[C.Plavan]

This is probably the most boring driving video I have ever put out. This was one of the slowest sessions. The session where I was really pushing it, didn't record. I got all belted in and forgot to turn camera on, then waved over a guy to push the button.... he turned it off completely. O-well Murphy's law.

Anyway, I was fighting the boost creep, hated the brakes/braking, and was in traffic anyway so I just half assed it. Towards the end I see a Lotus Exige and turned it up a little. Owell- Enjoy the sound of a stock WRX header/motor. I promise the next videos will be better.

[Wayne Presley]

I prefer the oil to get to over 215°F as it gets any water and volatile contaminants out. Any thing over 260°F needs to be addressed with a cooler. This is for synthetic oil. Refernces below.

We have customers that run the oils well above 280, but it's not something we recommend. You should be aiming to run around 220 to 230f. If you get toward 240 or 250, you look into how its being cooled. 260 or 270? You need to make some changes, in our eyes.

Again, I don't know what you're using, If you're going to look into Red Line, you should start with our 40WT Race. It's an ester-based 15W40 multigrade with lots of antiwear (ZDDP). Remember that going heavier isn't always best when trying to lower its temps, as a thicker fluid can trap heat.

Also considering a way to vent heat out from under the hood. That can make a dramatic drop in oil temp.

Hope that helps,
Cameron Evans
Red Line Oil

Bruce Crawley, Global Motorsports technology Manager for ExxonMobil was interviewed by Sports Car (the SCCA monthly) in the December 2010 issue.

Crawleystates,"when considering the optimum choice of viscosity grade of motor oilto use, the max oil operationg temp shoud be taken into account. For expample, a 0W-50running at 248F will have a similar viscosity to a 0W-30 operating at 212F."

According to Crawley"the best balance between oil life and performance comes in the range of 212 to 248F".

Finally, Crawleysuggests letting the oil get up to 194F before working it hard, as oil that is too cold will have a difficult time getting to vital engine parts under extreme loads.

When origianally researching this forum on this topic I found a post from an ex LS1 race motor builder who stated they informed their customers to not exceed 270 oil temp because the main journals go out of round at that temp. This is due to the difference in thermal expansion between the aluminum block and the iron bearing caps.

[C.Plavan]

I prefer the oil to get to over 215°F as it gets any water and volatile contaminants out. Any thing over 260°F needs to be addressed with a cooler. This is for synthetic oil. Refernces below.

We have customers that run the oils well above 280, but it's not something we recommend. You should be aiming to run around 220 to 230f. If you get toward 240 or 250, you look into how its being cooled. 260 or 270? You need to make some changes, in our eyes.

Again, I don't know what you're using, If you're going to look into Red Line, you should start with our 40WT Race. It's an ester-based 15W40 multigrade with lots of antiwear (ZDDP). Remember that going heavier isn't always best when trying to lower its temps, as a thicker fluid can trap heat.

Also considering a way to vent heat out from under the hood. That can make a dramatic drop in oil temp.

Hope that helps,
Cameron Evans
Red Line Oil

Bruce Crawley, Global Motorsports technology Manager for ExxonMobil was interviewed by Sports Car (the SCCA monthly) in the December 2010 issue.

Crawleystates,"when considering the optimum choice of viscosity grade of motor oilto use, the max oil operationg temp shoud be taken into account. For expample, a 0W-50running at 248F will have a similar viscosity to a 0W-30 operating at 212F."

According to Crawley"the best balance between oil life and performance comes in the range of 212 to 248F".

Finally, Crawleysuggests letting the oil get up to 194F before working it hard, as oil that is too cold will have a difficult time getting to vital engine parts under extreme loads.

When origianally researching this forum on this topic I found a post from an ex LS1 race motor builder who stated they informed their customers to not exceed 270 oil temp because the main journals go out of round at that temp. This is due to the difference in thermal expansion between the aluminum block and the iron bearing caps.

I'm using Brad Penn 20/50. It got to 240 with the Setrab cooler. There is a bigger one I will probably upgrade to (with fan pack also) I'm also going to cut the rear bumper up more to vent like the blue 818R. I could not believe how much hot air it traps. No wonder FFR did that.

[Wayne Presley]

The brakes should be great, do you know the compound you have. You should be able to significantly outbrake any of the cars you were running with. Here's a vid of the start of the last race at Barber. I'm in a virtually stock NA Lotus Elise on DOT race tires and both yellow cars have significantly more HP than me (different classes)





Chad, you look pretty smooth out there. You can tell the turbo is running out of steam on top, there are spots where you hear the motor just fall off the higher you rev'd it.

[C.Plavan]

I have just the stock Wilwood pads that came with them. I have already ordered a race pad set I am familiar with and love on the Porsche. I'm hoping that will solve the braking issue.

That braking was awesome. That's like Porsche braking

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Brakes: I'm not a fan of the stock pedal and Wilwoods. You have to stand on the brakes with alot of force. I plan on upgrading the pads to a racing set I know well to see if that helps with bite.

Hi Chad,
From my limited time in my 818 (about 75 autocross runs) I have determined that you need close to equal braking front and rear.

I believe you are using in the front:
FNSL6R which have 3.46 sq in. piston area

I believe you are using in the rear:
FNSL4R which have 1.96 sq in. piston area

When you use a proportional valve on the front, you may be turning down the front to match the rear, effectively wasting about 1/3 of your power into the PV.

Solution option #1. Use a balance bar pedal. All pedal force goes to the brakes.
Solution option #2. Use bigger piston in the rear brakes (my solution) to match the front stopping power.

What size pistons and how many in your Porsche brakes?
Does your Porsche have power brakes?

Bob
PS: I'm running 4.46 sq in front and 4.46 sq in rear.

[Wayne Presley]

.That braking was awesome. That's like Porsche braking

Here has a whole lap from the same race, also happens to be the new SCCA T3 lap record

[longislandwrx]

Brakes: I'm not a fan of the stock pedal and Wilwoods. You have to stand on the brakes with alot of force. I plan on upgrading the pads to a racing set I know well to see if that helps with bite.

I'm glad to hear you say that about the brakes. I actually brought this up to Joe at Sema. With the R6's heated I can stand on the pedal with nearly all my force and the tires still won't lock up.

You guys need to stop skipping leg day and get your squats in. LOL


Awesome Chad! errr James? Glad the car held up and you posted top times first day out.

[Frank818]

Solution option #1. Use a balance bar pedal. All pedal force goes to the brakes.

Bob, you mean using 2 MCs, one for front and one for rear?

[C.Plavan]

Hi Chad,
From my limited time in my 818 (about 75 autocross runs) I have determined that you need close to equal braking front and rear.

I believe you are using in the front:
FNSL6R which have 3.46 sq in. piston area

I believe you are using in the rear:
FNSL4R which have 1.96 sq in. piston area

When you use a proportional valve on the front, you may be turning down the front to match the rear, effectively wasting about 1/3 of your power into the PV.

Solution option #1. Use a balance bar pedal. All pedal force goes to the brakes.
Solution option #2. Use bigger piston in the rear brakes (my solution) to match the front stopping power.

What size pistons and how many in your Porsche brakes?
Does your Porsche have power brakes?

Bob
PS: I'm running 4.46 sq in front and 4.46 sq in rear.

I have the 4 pistons up front also. 6 pistons would be overkill.

edit- missed that question on the Porsche Brakes- Nope no booster or power on it.

[FFRSpec72]

I have just the stock Wilwood pads that came with them. I have already ordered a race pad set I am familiar with and love on the Porsche. I'm hoping that will solve the braking issue.

That braking was awesome. That's like Porsche braking

FFR went with the Willwod race pads to fix some of the braking issues

[D Clary]

Looks like fun, I get the boost creep but 18 psi doesn't sound like the end. If your timing retart is ok then I would move the cutoff to allow 18 psi and leave the boost control at 16. Running 110 octane could raise youre engine temp as is start to get to be a slow burn at that octane and low compression you get more heat on the cylinder walls and into the coolant. I usually buy the 96 when I have to at the track. Where are you getting youre oil temp? I would get it from the oil pan or tank. If you are getting it from a block port you may be getting a false reading. All in all I looks like a very successful outing.

[wleehendrick]

No muffler or cat because racecar. Thats the cause of Boost Creep issue.

Chad, are you still using the Cobb OTS Stage II + EBCS map? The application notes say it can cause boost creep with no cat. Do you plan to get the Accesstuner S/W or get a custom tune for it? I'm interested to see your solution, since I have a preety similar set-up, just with a little Flowmaster muffler.

[Mechie3]

I ran 21psi on my DD with Td04 (not an OTS tune). Never had engine issues due to that high of a boost pressure with the TD04. Higher than that is bad.

[C.Plavan]

You guys need to stop skipping leg day and get your squats in. LOL


Awesome Chad! errr James? Glad the car held up and you posted top times first day out.

Haha- I think Brandon has me beat. My race pads should be here soon. I'll test it on "The Loop".

Looks like fun, I get the boost creep but 18 psi doesn't sound like the end. If your timing retart is ok then I would move the cutoff to allow 18 psi and leave the boost control at 16. Running 110 octane could raise youre engine temp as is start to get to be a slow burn at that octane and low compression you get more heat on the cylinder walls and into the coolant. I usually buy the 96 when I have to at the track. Where are you getting youre oil temp? I would get it from the oil pan or tank. If you are getting it from a block port you may be getting a false reading. All in all I looks like a very successful outing.

My oil temp is coming off the port/plug on the back of the block.

Chad, are you still using the Cobb OTS Stage II + EBCS map? The application notes say it can cause boost creep with no cat. Do you plan to get the Accesstuner S/W or get a custom tune for it? I'm interested to see your solution, since I have a preety similar set-up, just with a little Flowmaster muffler.

Yes, still using it. I switched the map at the track to LWG (or HWG- which ever one lowers the boost- Its confusing). That seemed to help a little bit, but did not cure the fuel cut. It felt like I was hitting the rev limiter. It was random, but usually in 4th gear. You will see me lifting alot in the video to take advantage of the blow off valve to keep it from happening.

My answer to fixing it was to ask Santa for Injectors and a DOM 1.5xtr 10cm turbo...... ST1 here I come.

[metalmaker12]

There you go, but go twin scroll too!!

[wleehendrick]

Yes, still using it. I switched the map at the track to LWG (or HWG- which ever one lowers the boost- Its confusing). That seemed to help a little bit, but did not cure the fuel cut. It felt like I was hitting the rev limiter. It was random, but usually in 4th gear. You will see me lifting alot in the video to take advantage of the blow off valve to keep it from happening.

4th gear makes sense, since you spend more time under WOT there, I guess. Thanks for the info, I'll start off with the HWG tune then (which lowers boost IIRC) and if I experience it, see if a custom tune will address it.

My answer to fixing it was to ask Santa for Injectors and a DOM 1.5xtr 10cm turbo...... ST1 here I come.

Nice... That's one way to fix it!

[Brando]

My answer to fixing it was to ask Santa for Injectors and a DOM 1.5xtr 10cm turbo...... ST1 here I come.

I also went with the 10cm but in hindsight wish I had gone with the 8cm. ST1? Yowser that's going to be intense

[Hindsight]

Huh? I heard my name.....

[Aero STI]

I would recommend the twin-scroll EFR7163.

[metalmaker12]

I also went with the 10cm but in hindsight wish I had gone with the 8cm. ST1? Yowser that's going to be intense

The 8cm really does not spool any sooner. The efficiency range of the 1.5 is 18-25 psi. The twin scroll and avcs are the trick to getting power earlier

[C.Plavan]

I also went with the 10cm but in hindsight wish I had gone with the 8cm. ST1? Yowser that's going to be intense

Why is that? You have a 2.0L right? I have the 272 cams with 2.5L so the 10cm was recommended.

[C.Plavan]

With my current weight and running 245 or less DOT tires I could stay in ST2 if I had 270 RWHP- I'm guessing I have 230ish now. What turbo would be good for racing and 270 HP? I'm sure a tune can make it (bigger turbo) any HP I want really. I was looking at the TD04 19T upgrade that Blouch does, pretty cheap- but not sure it would fit specs to stay in or maximize ST2 class.

[Erik W. Treves]

I used the 2012 wrx turbo with a tune from Wayne and got 278 rwhp..I picked it up for 200....

[Wayne Presley]

Chad, You can use the electronic boost control to keep the RWHP at the ST2 HP/weight ratio over a wide RPM range. You want the smallest turbo that will provide that HP without falling off the sweet spot of the compressor map. BTW the car that I have in the shop made 411 RWHP with a 2.5 shortblock, 2.0 heads, BC 272 cams and Blouch 2.5 XTR turbo.

BTW, don't you have some arm restraints

[C.Plavan]

Chad, You can use the electronic boost control to keep the RWHP at the ST2 HP/weight ratio over a wide RPM range. You want the smallest turbo that will provide that HP without falling off the sweet spot of the compressor map. BTW the car that I have in the shop made 411 RWHP with a 2.5 shortblock, 2.0 heads, BC 272 cams and Blouch 2.5 XTR turbo.

BTW, don't you have some arm restraints

I had the arm restraints on- loosened up so I could point if I needed to because of dumb point by passing rule.

Now just trying to find that perfect turbo, or just go big to ST1. Decisions, decisions. I want to also see if new rules are coming out.