Project Question and Answer with Rhode Island School of Design's Michael Lye

[Cooluser23]

Will downforce be designed into the cars from the beginning? (i.e.: underbody diffuser)
rather than fixing problems afterwards with wings/spoilers.

[Cooluser23]

Will it be possible to make doors that open at an upward angle? (like Aston Martin type doors) This would help not scrape the doors when parked next to curbs. I don't think it would be very difficult/heavy to include that. Both mechanisms I've outlined below look fairly simple.

Or maybe doors that open similar to a McLaren Mp4-12c. A shock strut would reduce the wear and tear on the fiberglass body from slamming doors, and the up- and outward openning door would allow for fairly high doorsills and easy clearing of any crash structure in the car body. (therefore making the doors lighter, and avoiding having to put crash structure into the actual doors, rather than the cassis. (I'm sure those struts could be taken off the donor Subaru somewhere)

Aston Martin



McLaren Mp4-12c




McLaren F1

[Cooluser23]

In order to give the carbon monocoque the maximum possible stiffness despite door cutouts, clearances must be tight. They're so tight, in fact that there's no place for traditional door hinges. Instead, the door hinges attach higher-up (yellow). And that's why...

source

This is where I remembered reading this. While the 818 isn't a monocoque, the early pictures we saw of the tube frame show a fairly high door sill as well, so the problem may be a similar one to solve.

I also think that "interesting doors" fulfill Dave's requirement of the car looking "stunning". Certainly at a racetrack paddock, or in valet parking at a hotel. They also aid in the safety aspect of the doors being "completely out of the way" should rescue crews have to enter the cabin.

If possible, could we have some pictures showing the design process and key stages on making those 1/4 size models? I always wanted to see how the process looks at a smaller scale than large auto manufacturers.

[Dave Smith]

Lots of questions, I need to call Michael for back-up! Ha. A few answers.

I think that Xabiers car shows how small differences in body shape can go from Track car to elegant street car. The Porsche 918 is one of those designs that seems to live in both worlds aesthetically, still I want a more radical (think lotus 211) track car shape, but Xabiers 818 and 818R are my favorite, the differences being roll cage, upgraded konis and brakes (done already btw) and perhaps some aero add-ons like side canards, wings etc as I think aero will take the lightweight/good hp car to the nxt level of real performance.

An 818 Open House is a KILLER idea to gather feedback and just have fun. We could unveil the models, MAYBE hot rod the running chassis (I'm a sucker for donut contests), but seriously, a good Q&A with Jim and Jesper and the crew here in a fun and informal format open to those reading this (I would count those as customers and "qualified" feedback).

The gull-wing doors are probably something that could break the budget on the roadster version but on the Coupe (that will almost by definition cost a tad more) is an outside chance.

Alot of guys question the budget target, but if you really take a hard look at what we deliver in a Mk4 Base kit, the chassis, body, aluminum panels and boxes and boxes of parts... I think we will nail this car as long as the body is, like I said, ROCKSTAR cool.

[Hankl]

I think your wrong in your assumption that some one would buy this to change the body, like you change shoes. It's all about a standard platform, that can have different bodies based on its final configuration. You would not build a street car to compete in racing and vice a versa.

Hank

But that is exactly what is being suggested in post #35.

That is what the poster is suggesting, not FFR.

Hank

[D2W]

[QUOTE=Dave Smith;29768] An 818 Open House is a KILLER idea to gather feedback and just have fun. We could unveil the models, MAYBE hot rod the running chassis (I'm a sucker for donut contests), but seriously, a good Q&A with Jim and Jesper and the crew here in a fun and informal format open to those reading this (I would count those as customers and "qualified" feedback).QUOTE]

I think I just heard Jim's head explode Seriously that sounds like a great idea. Wish I was a lot closer so I could participate.

[Michael Lye]

Lots of questions, I need to call Michael for back-up! Ha.

Sorry for not getting back to the forum until now. Not only do you all want the models done but you want answers too. Boy, tough crowd! Now that I've got the clay out from underneath my fingernails - or at least what's left of them - I'll go back and try to give Dave a little back-up.

An 818 Open House is a KILLER idea to gather feedback and just have fun. We could unveil the models, MAYBE hot rod the running chassis (I'm a sucker for donut contests), but seriously, a good Q&A with Jim and Jesper and the crew here in a fun and informal format open to those reading this (I would count those as customers and "qualified" feedback).

If Dave can arrange an 818 Open House, I can probably make it there to answer a few questions in person and perhaps show some of the process of making the clay model. It sounds like fun.

[Michael Lye]

Michael, one more question for the night. Would you PLEASE go back and take another picture? This time, point the camera a little lower and to the right. As that appears to be where the model resides. I just added the last sentence for clarification so......ahem....... I wouldn't be mistakenly asking for a full frontal of Will. Not that he isn't a fine looking young man. lol

I'm sorry but I seemed to have forgotten my camera yesterday, so I couldn't take any more photos. Maybe next week I'll remember...

[Michael Lye]

Michael - going with the gist of some of the questions here, is your team giving thought to realities like radiator and intercooler ducting and placement, or are you only focussing on modeling what has been drawn? I think I know the answer, just want it from the horse's mouth.

While we're primarily attempting to model what's been drawn, the issues of ducting and placement are becoming clearer. We (the clay modelers) won't make any unilateral decisions on those things but the model itself does highlight the airflow to an extent and may suggest some answers to those questions. On thing I'd point out on the 818 renderings is that the area behind the seats and between the headrest fairings will likely be a low pressure area if there is rear window glass. Without glass it's less clear but is still possibly low-pressure. But perhaps some computer analysis will show differently.

So we'll get the model looking right and that can serve as a basis for making decisions on some of the things you've highlighted.

[Michael Lye]

If possible, could we have some pictures showing the design process and key stages on making those 1/4 size models? I always wanted to see how the process looks at a smaller scale than large auto manufacturers.

If there is an 818 open house I'll try to show some of the process there. And perhaps even before then I can show some photos of the process here.

Unlike the large scale auto manufacturers we're not using and milling machines to rough out the clay. It's all being done by hand. We use templates that we can drag through the clay to provide reference surfaces to work from while using clay tools to carve and shape the clay. One of the good things about clay is that if you need to you can add clay back to an area easily and still have a monolithic structure. So changes are accomplished relatively easily, which is important when try to determine how lines flow in 3D based on the 2D drawings.

I'll see what I can find for photos of the process that I can post.

[Silvertop]

That is what the poster is suggesting, not FFR.

Hank

True enough. But Olpro was in fact responding to the poster, not to FFR.

We can wish for anything. And I can certainly see the appeal of a quick-change car body. I'm just not sure how practical that is. The ability to easily swap bodies -- in an afternoon, or in a day -- would have to be designed in from the get-go, which would likely add additional cost to the project. But FFR will have to be the final judge of that, and of whether the versatility would render the additional cost worthwhile..........

[Dave Smith]

Guys,

I just want to say how grateful we are to have the quality and caliber of support with Michael and his team. The team and talent assembled to help with this really challenging project is impressive and I hope you guys can tell by the way we've approached this entirely new car (with a well-thought out plan and a resourced and talented group) that we are very serious about it's success in a larger way than making a few cars. Thanks Michael and I will work on the open house/cruise-in/design unveil/fun day plan.

[Michael Lye]

Michael, I would love to have you share the photos of the previous models and transition work on the transport project you showed me.

Dave's referring to a student project done in a RISD/Brown collaborative class from a couple of years ago that I co-taught along with Chris Bull from Brown Engineering. The students in the class designed and built a small 3-wheeled vehicle that ran on bio-diesel. This was a 12 week project from introduction to running prototype. They created both a full-size running vehicle and a 1:5 scale clay model of the body that it would have. It ran for the first time right after their final critique (equivalent to a final exam in the RISD design studios.)

Here is the first test drive of the vehicle:
DSC_0105.jpg

For those of you interested in the modeling process, here are some images of the model in progress. A group of 6 students created this model in about 2 1/2 weeks - without much in the way of sleep during that time.

IMG_0044.jpg IMG_0042.jpg IMG_0041.jpg IMG_0039.jpg

Many of the parts in grey primer were designed in Solidworks, and then rapid prototyped on a 3D printer to speed the process.

These photos show the students presenting their design and the finished model on exhibit at Brown. You can see some very exhausted students on the background!

DSC_0021.jpg DSC_0120.jpg DSC_0122.jpg

Just a note, we may not paint our model the way they did as it interferes with making changes down road. There are other options and we'll figure that out soon.

[Silvertop]

That's fascinating! Can't wait to see your 818 models!

[riptide motorsport]

This all too exciting!

[Silvertop]

Dave or Michael:

Are we allowed to know whether you are modeling 2nd Place Winner Rodney Olmos' V1 (targa coupe) or V2 (roadster) version?

("700 Designs" thread, Post 66....)

[ScottKoschwitz]

Wow, the quality of that trike model is really impressive. I can't wait to see the 818 models.

[NicksPapaw]

WOW !!! All I can say is WOW!

[Hankl]

Dave,

That 3 wheeler needs to be the next project, with a enclosed cockpit, an inner city transportation vehicle, you could call it the "409" (1/2 a 818) because it would really clean up the market!!

Hank

[Ks2]

in response to olpro (and others), my idea of weekend racing is SCCA on the weekends maybe a few passes at the drag strip, not a full blown race car like you have in mind/described. i have a full koni suspension in the subaru (dave already hinted at the final car having this) and it is easy to adjust, my idea of a weekend racer is changing the tires, suspension setup maybe the tune then switching back for street driving, others who take racing more seriously might want a dedicated track car

it doesn't necessarily have to be a race car and street car to change out, just used it as an example, it was mentioned there are 5 different bodies, perhaps a open top for the warm months and a hard top for winter as another example

as for additional cost if all the body kits have the same mounting points where they attach to the frame it wouldn't be too difficult... (waiting for dave to chime in)

also micheal i may be able to speak for everyone when i say we would love to see other models and transition work if you happen to have any more shots lying around

[Flamshackle]

RHD for us outside the states derived from the local supply of donor cars? Dave? anyone?

[305mouse]

I would assume since it's based on your donor, that this car would be either RHD or LHD. With a simple interior, the two sides could be swapped depending on what side of the road you drive on.

[Someday I Suppose]

This is a great thread. Michael, interesting on the comment about not painting the clay model in order to make it easier to make addiditional changes. That was going to be my question, would the clay as well as the computer printed 1/4 scale models be painted to give a better feel for what the final product might look like?

Or... will the clay be scanned into 3D and printed??

Dave... love the quiet drop about the secret #4 design...

[mekeys]

It looks like the 1/4 scale models are in good hands..!!!

Mel

[2KWIK4U]

I am pretty excited and can't wait for the models to be shown. those look like some talented model makers.

[Michael Lye]

This is a great thread. Michael, interesting on the comment about not painting the clay model in order to make it easier to make addiditional changes. That was going to be my question, would the clay as well as the computer printed 1/4 scale models be painted to give a better feel for what the final product might look like?

The clay can certainly be painted to a high quality finish. But before that happens we want to be certain that the model meets all the design goals so if there are minor revisions needed we don't have to worry about the paint. There's no point in putting the time into paint if the form isn't right. As Dave said, it's got to be stunning - if it's not quite there, it's time for revisions. Right now it's actually helpful for us to see the model without any graphics, lines or other extras as it shows the form off most clearly.

Or... will the clay be scanned into 3D and printed??

The process will be to scan the surfaces of the models, scale them appropriately, and use the data to then mill the body in full-size. So it won't be printed but there will be a full-size mockup of the body ready to work from.

Glad you're finding the thread interesting. I am too.

[Someday I Suppose]

I HOPE there will be some video of that full size body being milled... :-) Is it cut from a high density foam I assume?

(and yes on the thread being interesting, I love seeing how technology is now incorporated into design, amazing what RP technology has brought.)

The clay can certainly be painted to a high quality finish. But before that happens we want to be certain that the model meets all the design goals so if there are minor revisions needed we don't have to worry about the paint. There's no point in putting the time into paint if the form isn't right. As Dave said, it's got to be stunning - if it's not quite there, it's time for revisions. Right now it's actually helpful for us to see the model without any graphics, lines or other extras as it shows the form off most clearly.


The process will be to scan the surfaces of the models, scale them appropriately, and use the data to then mill the body in full-size. So it won't be printed but there will be a full-size mockup of the body ready to work from.

Glad you're finding the thread interesting. I am too.

[mekeys]

I would like to see a video camera of the work being done on the models as well as on the full size mock-up..


Mel

[Silvertop]

I would like to see a video camera of the work being done on the models as well as on the full size mock-up..


Mel

So would I! And if real-time footage is impossible due to the need for secrecy, I'd settle for some video camera footage we could look at even post-reveal.

[818_Fan_15]

The gull-wing doors are probably something that could break the budget on the roadster version but on the Coupe (that will almost by definition cost a tad more) is an outside chance.

They are actually Butterfly doors, technical name: dihedral doors

If someone could figure out how the hinge on the new McLaren Mp4-12c works, which doesn't need a second attachment point at the top of the window, it may be a good option for the 818.

From the McLaren link above:

The reason for [the fancy doors] lies in their unique design. When opened, they actually remove part of the lower sill that typically makes getting in or out of a sports car an event for all the wrong reasons.
[...]
Parking made easy 603mm. [23inches] That's the surprisingly small amount of space a driver needs to open the 12C's unique doors; inconveniently lengthy doors openings being another feature that traditionally makes driving a sports car ever day less appealing.
[...]

Lightweight and aerodynamic
We're proud of our obsession with weight. [...] When designing the dihedral doors, our engineers questioned whether with some intelligent design, they couldn't reduce the McLaren F1's double door hinge design to just one. The 12C's doors pivot elegantly on a single, lightweight hinge.
[...]

Gull-wing doors are more reminescent of the DeLorean DMC-12

[Michael Lye]

So would I! And if real-time footage is impossible due to the need for secrecy, I'd settle for some video camera footage we could look at even post-reveal.

We've been taking quite a few still photos as we've worked on the clay model. I'm hoping we can stitch them together into a decent time-lapse but haven't tested that idea yet. There will be some gaps but there should be enough there to show the evolution of the model. We haven't shot any video though as it's really kind of slow most of the time. Perhaps as we get closer to the end I can do that though our first priority has to be getting things right. Most of this would be shown post-reveal though. We're going to have to wait for Dave to let the cat out of the bag first.

[thebeerbaron]

Michael - at what point in the design process are details like headlight and tail light sourcing decided? I don't think any of the designs reused the donor bits, but surely custom designed lighting would be break the budget. I can't imagine building these models only to reshape them around donor lighting later.

[Flamshackle]

I don't think any of the designs reused the donor bits, but surely custom designed lighting would be break the budget.

Xaviers car uses donor lights at the front at least (and donor seats)

This is super smart IMHO to keeping costs down and looking ace at the same time

[305mouse]

Every two model years though the headlights are different. Xavier's used the 06-07 headlights. Tail lights changed as well from 03 to 04 if I remember correctly. I would think the kit would come with headlights and tail lights because of these model year changes. Or I could be completely wrong and if you use an 03 donor you'll have to source 06 headlights.

[Michael Lye]

Michael - at what point in the design process are details like headlight and tail light sourcing decided? I don't think any of the designs reused the donor bits, but surely custom designed lighting would be break the budget. I can't imagine building these models only to reshape them around donor lighting later.

Headlights and taillights have a very significant impact on the look and form of the body. One of the nice things about clay is that it's easier than some other materials to try out different ideas. So we can consider various options as we go along but for the front end to look right the lighting has to be considered very early or the lights will look tacked on. The rear might be a little easier if it has simple round taillights but anything more complicated has the same concerns. So the short answer is from the very start we're looking at the possible sources for these parts.

[Michael Lye]

Xaviers car uses donor lights at the front at least (and donor seats)

This is super smart IMHO to keeping costs down and looking ace at the same time

In Xabier's renderings it's interesting to look closely at what he did with the headlights. The front 3/4 view shows them most clearly and if you look carefully you can see they're actual photographs of the Subie lights. However, in the process of photoshopping them into his renderings, he's distorted the lights in subtle but important ways. For example, if you compare the slope of the front of the light the actual part is much more vertical than what's seen in the renderings. This is clearer in the side views than the front 3/4 view. So although the lights look like Subie lights, those lights won't look the same and may not work well. So we can't reuse those lights from the donor without significant changes to the front.

[StatGSR]

^ that's what i figured, not to mention it would be silly to design a car around some headlights that the vast majority of people wont even get with their donor car to begin with. (i doubt that many people will end up with 06-07 imprezas for this build)

Ditch the idea of donor headlights!!!!! im still all about a custom hella configuration with a cover

[thebeerbaron]

I always thought the headlights on the Xabier front 3/4 view looked a little...off. Now I know why. Very interesting!

One more question, as I struggle to remove the spark plugs from my donor. (there's about two inches of clearance between the valve cover and the frame rail!)

Are questions like hood/door/trunk openings being considered at this stage? There are character lines in each sketch, but are panels being decided on? Because it would be really, really, really awesome if this car had access like this...



My back thanks you in advance for making access easy!

And thanks for putting up with the relentless stream of questions!

[Silvertop]

^ that's what i figured, not to mention it would be silly to design a car around some headlights that the vast majority of people wont even get with their donor car to begin with. (i doubt that many people will end up with 06-07 imprezas for this build)

Ditch the idea of donor headlights!!!!! im still all about a custom hella configuration with a cover

Must agree -- particularly since there are at least three different styles of headlights used in the projected range of donor cars.

[Ks2]

i thought he had a few versions of the design that used a more generic aftermarket design (i know the race version did) still looked good either way