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Thread: Installing a 2005-2009 T3650 with a Coyote...

  1. #1
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    Installing a 2005-2009 T3650 with a Coyote...

    There's not a whole lot of info on installing this trans in roadster, so here's how I did it:

    First, obtain a T3650 from 2005-2009 Mustang GT. Getting the shifter linkage with it is very helpful.

    Upon purchase, you'll want to install a new slave cylinder. Get one from Ford, or get a Dorman from rockauto. Any other brands are prone to leaking. Installation is 2 bolts.



    Next, you'll want a clutch. I'd recommend an Exedy or Valeo if you want a single disc with stock like effort. If your pockets are deeper, there are plenty of fantastic dual discs out there. Before you mount the clutch, you'll want to check to see if your slave needs a shim.

    General Understanding: Factory Hyd. setup

    How to measure: http://www.ramclutches.com/Instructi...SITION1010.pdf

    Shim or don't shim as needed, and install the clutch:



    With the clutch installed, you need to support the trans. You can use the FF provided cross member, you'll just need to drill out some holes for the Ford trans mount. Order one 7, one 8, and two 9's from Ford:

    2007 FORD MUSTANG Parts - Tousley Ford Parts Depot



    You'll need a slip driveshaft made. I had one made by a local shop for under $400. The bolts on the 8.8 flange are the same as the 3650 flange. The 3650 flange is a larger diameter though, so the driveshaft will have different ends. Bolts needed (you need 8 bolts total):





    The shifter will need some work. The B&M for 05-09 Mustang GT uses pivot mount that is easy to mount on a plate. I bought some 3/16 steel plate and cut a hole for the shifter to drop through then mounted it to the trans rails:



    To reduce the height of the shifter, I just used a die to cut the threads all the way down the stalk. The thread is M12x1.25. Pick your shifter ball.



    The shifter works the same as the stock Mustang, only the linkage goes forward over the trans, instead of back of the trans.

    Now, to the clutch. I used the stock pieces and bought a new braided line. The braided line includes the special fittings to fit the trans and the Ford master cylinder. The part is:

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCL-139251/
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  2. #2
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    That connects the hydraulics from the trans to the master cylinder. I grafted the OEM master on to a pedal box using some plate steel. The result looks like this:



    The nipple off the master is 5/16" and the Wilwood reservoir is 3/8". The working fluid of the clutch is DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid. Since it's corrosive, I had a local hydraulic shop make me an EPDM line with transition. Here's everything connected:



    And finally, you need to bleed the clutch. My local Advance has a hand vacuum pump loaner. The bleeding instructions are:

    1. Make sure all hydraulic lines are correctly seated and all bleeder screws tightened.
    2. Make sure clutch pedal is in the most upward position.
    3. Check the fluid level. Fill the reservoir to the MAX fluid mark.
    4. Using a suitable bleeder kit and vacuum pump, install the rubber stopper in the reservoir opening. Make sure it has a tight fit.
    5. Holding the rubber stopper in place, operate the vacuum pump to 15-20 inches of vacuum. Hold the vacuum for 1 minute, then quickly release the vacuum. Remove the tools.
    6. Check the reservoir and fill to MAX level if needed.
    7. Depress and release the clutch 10 to 12 times until effort is consistent and positive at the top of clutch pedal travel.
    8. Repeat 4, 5, and 6 two additional times or until clutch effort is consistent.
    9. Install reservoir cap.
    10. Check the reservoir and test for normal operation.
    And that concludes your 2005-2009 T3650 transmission installation. I chose this transmission for my Coyote for a few reasons. It's readily available and cheap (lots of $500-$750 low mile units out there), it's set up for a hydraulic clutch, the remote shifter allows an ergonomic install location, and lastly they've been proven to hold 450+ hp. Hope that helps.
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  3. #3
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    mike forte's Avatar
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    Hi,
    What does the fitting look like ate the external slave? Is it a screw in fitting or a pinned fitting with an o-ring?

  4. #4
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    Mike,

    It's a o-ring that pushes and then a "U" clip holds it in. McLeod (PN 139251) makes an AN-4 line with the fittings:

    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  5. #5
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Clemson,

    Did you measure the motion ratio of the stock 2005+ mustang for the clutch pedal throw/MC throw? Thinking of duplicating your most excellent setup but want to make sure the stroke is accurate.

    Also, the end of the hard line coming out of my transmission TO bearing looks to be the same as both ends of the fittings attached to the Mcleod flex line you posted a pic of above. Is there some other piece my transmission is missing?

    Thanks for all your help!

    David
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

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  6. #6
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    Did you measure the motion ratio of the stock 2005+ mustang for the clutch pedal throw/MC throw? Thinking of duplicating your most excellent setup but want to make sure the stroke is accurate.
    I have the original S197 pedal box geometry written down. I'll have to find it in my stack of paperwork. I'll also measure my current travel. What clutch are you going to use?

    Also, the end of the hard line coming out of my transmission TO bearing looks to be the same as both ends of the fittings attached to the Mcleod flex line you posted a pic of above. Is there some other piece my transmission is missing?
    Nope. Both ends are the same.
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  7. #7
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Cool, thanks! I spent all the time making the wildwood mc work with the hydroboost, and while it will take some more work, getting the stock mustang MC to work seems the smarter way to go. If it ever failed on a road trip, it would be easy to source a replacement.

    Im going with a Mcleod clutch. Its their street clutch, so is supposed to be close to stock pedal effort.

    Thanks for your help on this stuff!

    David
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

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  8. #8
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    The stock MC compresses 1-7/16". Center of the clutch pedal pivot bolt to the eyelet center on the MC is 2-7/8". Long test drive today and the effort is perfect.
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  9. #9
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Great, thanks Clemson! That's a big help. Is that your ratio, stock or both?
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

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  10. #10
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    It's both. There is also about another 1/2 to 3/4" of travel available in the MC, but my clutch didn't need the travel.
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  11. #11
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Perfect, thanks so much!!

    David
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  12. #12
    Member ATOLightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClemsonS197 View Post
    It's both. There is also about another 1/2 to 3/4" of travel available in the MC, but my clutch didn't need the travel.
    Since you say there's more travel left in the MC, I assume there's more travel left in the pedal. Did you make a pedal stop? If so, could you snap a couple of pictures and post them?

    Thanks,
    Michael
    Michael
    MK4 #7804
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    3V SOHC 4.6 Powered, TR-3650, 3-Link (3.31) 17" Chrome FR500's, Dual Roll Bars, Speedhut Gauges
    Ordered: OCT-2012 Delivered: 16-MAY-2012 First Start: 21-JUN-2015 First Drive: 26-MAY-2016 Paint: TBD Licensed & Tagged: 23-NOV-2016

  13. #13
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    The stock S197 pedal box did not have a stop on it. I figured if the stock Mustang pieces did not require a stop, I did not need it.

    You push the pedal, which pushes the master cylinder in, which moves the fluid expanding the slave pushing on the pressure plate fingers lifting it off the clutch disc. So either the pressure plate fingers are moved as far as they'll go, or the slave is extended to the max. I guess you could add a stop and adjust it so you have enough travel to lift the pressure plate, but not max it out.
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  14. #14
    Member ATOLightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClemsonS197 View Post
    The stock S197 pedal box did not have a stop on it. I figured if the stock Mustang pieces did not require a stop, I did not need it.

    You push the pedal, which pushes the master cylinder in, which moves the fluid expanding the slave pushing on the pressure plate fingers lifting it off the clutch disc. So either the pressure plate fingers are moved as far as they'll go, or the slave is extended to the max. I guess you could add a stop and adjust it so you have enough travel to lift the pressure plate, but not max it out.
    Ahhh, that makes sense. I was also forgetting that you have the mustang pedals.

    Thanks
    Michael
    MK4 #7804
    Plans:
    3V SOHC 4.6 Powered, TR-3650, 3-Link (3.31) 17" Chrome FR500's, Dual Roll Bars, Speedhut Gauges
    Ordered: OCT-2012 Delivered: 16-MAY-2012 First Start: 21-JUN-2015 First Drive: 26-MAY-2016 Paint: TBD Licensed & Tagged: 23-NOV-2016

  15. #15
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ATOLightning View Post
    Ahhh, that makes sense. I was also forgetting that you have the mustang pedals.

    Thanks
    Correct. I used the pedal box out of a 95 so I could bend them outboard to fit the Coyote pedal in without its length.

    Very pleased with the effort.....

    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  16. #16
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Clemson, I got my master cyl today. That's going to be a nice solution! I ordered the full line and elbow with the bleeder from McCleod since my trans didn't have the elbow. Summit has it for $110. I'll post some pics of the design once I make some progress.

    On another note, did you need to lift the motor with spacers on the motor mounts or other alternative? Its been a while, but I remember I thought I needed to do that for some reason and machined some spacers which have been installed for over a year I think.. I have a bit of clearance left with my Champ pan, so I may be able to reduce the thickness of the spacers. What pan are you using?

    David
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

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  17. #17
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    I have the champ pan. I used the spacers to clear the PS pulley and to avoid having to slot the ffr mounts.
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  18. #18
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Clemson,

    Do you know if the master cyl needs to be fully extended to at rest to work correctly, or can the travel be in the middle of its stroke with the pedal at rest?

    Also, do you remember how much pre-load you had on your throw-out bearing? The link you posted mentioned a min of .6 inch. My pre-load is around .7-.8"

    David
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

    GTM Project Build site: http://www.gtmbuild.com

    Few Cool GTM Parts: http://www.gtmbuild.com/parts.htm

  19. #19
    Senior Member ClemsonS197's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David View Post
    Clemson,

    Do you know if the master cyl needs to be fully extended to at rest to work correctly, or can the travel be in the middle of its stroke with the pedal at rest?

    Also, do you remember how much pre-load you had on your throw-out bearing? The link you posted mentioned a min of .6 inch. My pre-load is around .7-.8"

    David
    David,

    The master cylinder is at max-stroke at rest on the stock box. The "ring" on the end is threaded for some slight adjust, IIRC.

    My pre-load was between .6 an .7 but I don't recall the exact number. It was good so I didn't get a shim or care much after that.

    Hope that helps.

    Kevin
    MK3.1 #7076 - Under Construction....
    Coyote 5.0/Solid 8.8/Tremec 3650
    How to:
    Coyote Power Steering
    05-09 T3650 in a Roadster

  20. #20
    Administrator David's Avatar
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    Thanks Kevin, that help! David
    Mk4 Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?141-David-s-Mk4-Build-Thread

    GTM Project Build site: http://www.gtmbuild.com

    Few Cool GTM Parts: http://www.gtmbuild.com/parts.htm

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