H6-EZ30 engine in the 818----IT FITS

[Canadian818]

I've been spending my usual FFR forum reading time these past few days on EZ30R swaps. Engines can be had for about $1500, but expect to spend about the same or more on engine management. So it'll cost you about the same as a version 7 or 8 EJ20. And on top of that you'll probably need different headers. Once the STI transmission is an option, the EJ can "fairly" easily be bumped up to 350+hp. Much more and you'll need to look at internals. Not sure how many EZ30R's are turbo without building the block, but once you do the sky is the limit. If 300-350 is your end goal, H4 is your best option. But if you feel the need to make 500hp+ on pump gas with a usable powerband, well, bring your wallet and build that EZ.

Again, no expert here, just info I've gathered online in a few days.

[Xusia]

Yeah, cost really isn't a reason to use an EZ series engine. Unless your goal is spend a lot of money, that is! LOL

[C.Plavan]

I would also guess the EJ is lighter than the EZ.

[skullandbones]

I think the idea of being able to put an H6 in the 818 without modification (TBD: exhaust, etc), is just crazy. It would mean it only increases the popularity of this FFR. There are probably lots of people out there that would rather spend some extra on EM and get the H6 with the cool sounds and good HP and torque out of the box and still NA (not interested in further mods). So except for the wiring and exhaust, it would be a bolt in. I have friends with roadsters that have stock 5.0 HO and love them. I have ridden in one. There was nothing disappointing in it at all with just 225 HP. So there will be a group of people who gravitate to this project just because of the possibility. Just like there will be a group that is interested in the 818 for a high mpg vehicle, this can't hurt.

[StatGSR]

I would also guess the EJ is lighter than the EZ.

once you consider the turbo and extra piping associated with that, its pretty much the same or negligible.

[Frank818]

If one remains NA on the EZ but would like more power, I have looked around for NA parts like better flowing manif, cams, remapped ECU, etc. and I haven't found much. Are there performance parts for the EZ that increase power to the max the NA build can take? COBB has a remapped ECU, but besides that?

[StatGSR]

If one remains NA on the EZ but would like more power, I have looked around for NA parts like better flowing manif, cams, remapped ECU, etc. and I haven't found much. Are there performance parts for the EZ that increase power to the max the NA build can take? COBB has a remapped ECU, but besides that?

There pretty much isn't anything off the shelf for any of the Subaru H6's. most people don't realize that pretty much every part on any H6 build they have seen is custom and or one off. you should be able to get a decent amount of power from some long tube headers and a proper tune, one could ask Delta if they offer reground cams as well.

I know if i was going with an H6 it would because I was ok with the power out of the box and would rather leave it alone and enjoy the reliability of a stock engine than try to build it and push it to its to its breaking point, a guy could spend a lot of money chasing power they either wont get or will just result in a busted motor.

[tirod]

There's another off the wall option, a belt driven centrifugal supercharger like the Rotrax. Most engines can handle 6-8 pounds of boost, and the tech to modify things is pretty open source on the internet. It would add 50-80 hp, I guess, and would plumb into the existing intake setup fairly easy.

If options feel like you are getting boxed in, then think out of the box. When there is a lack of performance parts available, the supercharger is then a viable option for the same amount of money you would have spent getting them. A belt driven supercharger generally comes in at a lower rpm, which is exactly where it needs to be when dealing with a stock bottom end. More torque in the 1800-4500 band equals more usable power without stressing parts not really intended to carry it over 5,000 rpm. You don't have to undersize a turbo to get it to spool up faster, then add a blow off valve because the map is too efficient.

With a previously NA H6, you aren't stuck for a new set of headers, intake, cams, etc. At least until it blows up.

[Turboguy]

I know if i was going with an H6 it would because I was ok with the power out of the box and would rather leave it alone and enjoy the reliability of a stock engine than try to build it and push it to its to its breaking point, a guy could spend a lot of money chasing power they either wont get or will just result in a busted motor.

Again- from what I've seen most people considering the H-6 are doing so because getting that flat-6 engine "sound" is high on their priority list. So, in a way, it's kind of like someone telling us how bad pizza is for us when we are all talking about how much we like eating apples.


As for "chasing power they won't get", I'm really not sure about that. After all, the H-6 swapped STi that Perrin built up a few years ago put down 600HP and 550 ft-lbs of torque - at the wheels. Try doing THAT with a 2 liter WRX motor. Again, pure HP isn't what I'm in it for, but for those that want to go that way.......the world appears to be your oyster.

[Wayne Presley]

You don't have to undersize a turbo to get it to spool up faster, then add a blow off valve because the map is too efficient.

Say what? Blow off valves only job is to protect the compressor wheel from surge damage and not to release excess pressure.

You size the turbine housing to get the spool up rpm you want. The trade off is you make by down sizing the turbine AR is the total flow of the housing becomes the HP restriction. The compressor size is chosen based on the pressure ratio needed and CFM required for the HP desired.

[Flamshackle]

I think the idea of being able to put an H6 in the 818 without modification (TBD: exhaust, etc), is just crazy. It would mean it only increases the popularity of this FFR. There are probably lots of people out there that would rather spend some extra on EM and get the H6 with the cool sounds and good HP and torque out of the box and still NA (not interested in further mods). So except for the wiring and exhaust, it would be a bolt in. I have friends with roadsters that have stock 5.0 HO and love them. I have ridden in one. There was nothing disappointing in it at all with just 225 HP. So there will be a group of people who gravitate to this project just because of the possibility. Just like there will be a group that is interested in the 818 for a high mpg vehicle, this can't hurt.

I agree 100%.

If FFR are wanting to make money then down the track an H6 version would create more interest for sure.

[StatGSR]

Again- from what I've seen most people considering the H-6 are doing so because getting that flat-6 engine "sound" is high on their priority list. So, in a way, it's kind of like someone telling us how bad pizza is for us when we are all talking about how much we like eating apples.

As for "chasing power they won't get", I'm really not sure about that. After all, the H-6 swapped STi that Perrin built up a few years ago put down 600HP and 550 ft-lbs of torque - at the wheels. Try doing THAT with a 2 liter WRX motor. Again, pure HP isn't what I'm in it for, but for those that want to go that way.......the world appears to be your oyster.

your preaching to the wrong guy, I'm have been part of the H6 bandwagon since the 818 was first announced, i have an H6 swapped legacy, i have looked up a thing or two about them over the last several years. i also know that its an engine where it wouldn't pay to try to make reliable power over stock.

Perrin built a one off show car for Sema to show what they could do, yes it made power, but you can throw boost at anything and make power, its how long its going to live making that power that is the important part. There is a good reason that car and engine dropped off the face of the earth many years ago. i suspect it cost a small fortune to make that much power and/or it broke within a year and wasn't worth fixing.

in any case you don't need 550ft-lb of torque in an 818, unless you are looking for a dyno queen or a show car...

[Desertrunner]

Before anyone jumps up and down I understand currently the EG33 doesn't fit in the 818, my purpose of posting is to share what we are doing with this engine.
Currently we are working on getting the EG33 to run at 10k and increase the peak torque which will mean that if we hold torque it will develop a lot of power off the shelf (target between 350 to 400kw).
The aim is to only change the rods which is a cost of $1,300 and get the cams reground at about $200 bucks, and a new ECU there is also required some mods to the cooling system on the engine as well. The rest of the current engine is tough enough to take anything you can throw at it. Most people say we need to replace the pistons as well which is not correct and we have the perfect proof from a recent event. A couple of weeks ago one of my engines/cars went under water when running during a river crossing. The engine broke 2 rods and punched a hole in the engine block when we pulled it down the pistons were still okay as was crank etc. it was the rods that gave way.
For a whole lot of personal reasons I only work on the Subaru EG33 and for that purpose I have a engine dyno and about 15 spare engines for the development of this project.

The point made earlier is correct there are not many bits for the Subaru engines and I think there are a lot of assumptions made about what needs replacing. Also feel every engine doesn't need a turbo up its *** you can move the revs up and improve the cams to get reasonable gains.

Tony

[Canadian818]

If anyone has any good EZ30 build threads or info to share please do! Most of what I'm finding is swaps into older impreza RS's. And most of them appear stock. I'm more interested in the turbo H6's, and while there are lots of them mentioned, I'm not finding much info.

Personally I've been up in the air on what engine to use. First i was EJ255 all the way, and was seriously going to consider twin turbocharging it. Then after not finding any affordable donors, i picked up a NA impreza, and figured I'd go with a jdm EJ207. Cheap (around 3k), and capable of destroying my transmission without building the motor. As i type that, I'm realizing its still the best option. However....

I was dead set on getting a used 996 turbo before settling on the 818. After building a new house, I didn't have quite 40-50k, so i was going to get a loan for probably half. The more i thought about paying off a toy, and not modifying it until it was, well, it would suck. But by that point i was already in love with the car. So the idea of a 500hp, twin turbo H6 still being possible is too much to ignore. Obviously the 500hp is not stage one for me, but 200+hp, a flat torque curve, and possibly one of the sweetest sounding 818's is a good start. And once I've got all i can out of that setup at the track, 6 speed and turbos!

Also for those considering. Many of the standalone ECU's come with traction control and launch control. So if you were considering the race logic setup, take $1000 off your budget!

[Xusia]

Canadian818, what are your goals in regards to the engine? Purely power? Sound? Throttle response? And don't just say "yes!" - there are always trade-offs. You have to prioritize. Once you've decided on your goals, then picking an appropriate engine to meet those goals will be much easier (and it will be easier for other folks to help you).

[Frank818]

As for "chasing power they won't get", I'm really not sure about that. After all, the H-6 swapped STi that Perrin built up a few years ago put down 600HP and 550 ft-lbs of torque - at the wheels.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/perrin-h6-build-up/

But they don't seem to offer the kit on their website (I don't want that crazy kit though!). Or any reliable turbo H6 kit (with less power).
Sound is high on my list, but I also want somewhere 325-350whp/wtq, reliably. Unless Perrin sells a nice reliable turbo kit that is not on their website, or if I find a place where they do, I won't start R&Ding for years on a one off of my own turbo kit, like I did with my current (for sale) car. Been there done that, now I want to build a car, not an engine and a full map. Anyway, I got time before my car is sold so I'll keep my eyes open and will see. That is also why I ask many questions around. To learn and see the options.

[Canadian818]

Canadian818, what are your goals in regards to the engine? Purely power? Sound? Throttle response? And don't just say "yes!" - there are always trade-offs. You have to prioritize. Once you've decided on your goals, then picking an appropriate engine to meet those goals will be much easier (and it will be easier for other folks to help you).

My goal is an ever changing one. I love fabricating, and being different. There will always be someone with more money, so tackling something harder, that money alone won't solve, has its appeal. But most important, I need to be afraid to push the car 100%, it's not fun if I can calmly push past that point. My view on sport bikes was always if I'm not afraid of it, it's time for a bigger bike, lol. I don't ride sport bikes anymore... Haha

[Xusia]

Tackling something harder, along with wanting to be scared, dictates a turbo H6 (at least to me). I wouldn't do it, but we are different people and I wish you good luck on your mission - should you choose to accept it!

[HelluvaEngineer]

Not to fan the flames any more on this thread. But here is some performance information and aftermarket parts for the EZ30.

Headers http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=70

A thread with some information on the 3.0.
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...6-17345p6.html

Here is a super charger
http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=58


edit: Fan the flames not flame the fires

[Frank818]

Not to fan the flames any more on this thread. But here is some performance information and aftermarket parts for the EZ30.

Headers http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=70

A thread with some information on the 3.0.
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...6-17345p6.html

Here is a super charger
http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=58


edit: Fan the flames not flame the fires

Good, some more info, tnx.

Headers
205awhp/184awtq

SC (about 42% increase they say)
268awhp/???awtq (355bhp or 302whp at 15% loss)
At $5,200 I'd rather sacrifice sound for cheap JDM EJ207 blowing out 350whp/350wtq with more if I wanted later on. But that's my opinion.

[flynntuna]

Not to fan the flames any more on this thread. But here is some performance information and aftermarket parts for the EZ30.

Headers http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=70

A thread with some information on the 3.0.
http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...6-17345p6.html

Here is a super charger
http://www.raptorsc.com.au/kits.php?id=58


edit: Fan the flames not flame the fires

You've had better luck finding performance parts for the h6. I'm sure if this engine becomes popular a forum vendor will develop 818 specific headers to fit the frame.

[tirod]

Thank you, Wayne, obviously my old school info on turbo sizing doesn't hold up these days. I guess Ak Miller moved on, too. That was gee, more than 30 years ago, now. I was looking at putting one on a 200 six in a Mustang. Went SBF and didn't look back.

Now, dropping a EZ into a 818 (or the 99 Forester parked outside,) that's interesting. Mechanically dirt simple from the pics, it's getting the wire loom integrated into a different car that would raise issues. Not for a kit, tho.

I suspect you used the donor loom and computer from the EZ, any info on that?

And in that vein, here's one done five years ago: http://www.ausubaru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10303

And hundreds of pages here: http://www.rs25.com/forums/f128/t843...ap-thread.html

[Turboguy]

I suspect you used the donor loom and computer from the EZ, any info on that?

Yes, it's been talked about.

if you do a search you will come across the "official H6 into an 818 thread" where all this has been covered before.

[Wayne Presley]

I'm using a stand alone computer and stand alone car harness.

[HelluvaEngineer]

I really like the idea of an EZ30 in the 818. My personal taste would be to keep it stock NA and do a few minor things. Headers, exhaust, K&N air cleaner and a good tune. Would probably get about 280HP to 300HP at the crank. If I get wild I could see a slightly reground cam and some stiffer springs to get a little more RPM out of it to take advantage of the cam.

But for those who are thinking crazy, I found another link to a 730HP build. The car ran low 9.13 in the 1/4 at close to 148.6 MPH. There are some comments about the pistons, rods and a company who did their reground cam.

http://www.417racing.com/board/viewt...hp?f=12&t=7930

[HelluvaEngineer]

Here is a long read with details on the stock engine.

http://blog.perrinperformance.com/perrin-h6-build-up/

[skullandbones]

That's interesting reading. It tells me that EZ30 stock = + 300HP and EZ30 machine work = $$$$! I could live with the slightly modified version. The low end torque, Porsche like sound, and all the advantages of an NA engine plus enough power to jerk your head back against the headrest would be enough for me. That's 6 to 1 wt/hp exactly the same as my roadster. WEK.

[LesMurray]

I noted something interesting in the writeup in that the engine was a co-development between Subaru and Porsche. I wonder if this engine uses a Intermediate Shaft (IMS) for the valve timing chains? The M96 and M97 Porsche engines use an IMS bearing to support the shaft that is one of the weak links of that motor. Research IMS Settlement for details. I am just wondering how the valve timing chains are run on the H6 and if it presents a possible point of failure.

[PhyrraM]

http://phantomotaku.com/SVX/011822-MSA5P0631C.pdf

On the early engines one cylinder bank is direct to the crank and the other is off an idler driven by the first.

On the 3.6 there are 3 chains. A short one from the crank to the idler and then each bank driven off of that.

I am no sure about the 'middle' year EZ30R, but I assume the 2 chain system.

[SkiRideDrive]

Great info guys. Thinking out loud of possible way to approach and source necessary components for an ez30r build:

-NA Impreza donor, possibly already missing engine/transmission (I spotted a shell locally which could fit the bill for $500)
-5 speed transmission (various possibilities, perhaps legacy gt)
-EZ30R (maybe even one of the JDM ones that come in from Japan with low mileage)
-Electronics packages (Wayne has indicated above he may have this covered, but it seems you would need a computer to run the engine and perhaps another setup for various lighting and ancillaries)

I also believe the NA impreza brake system is less substantial than a wrx setup, so maybe the money saved on a NA impreza donor minus motor could be put towards a brembo setup. I also want to check into if there was any differences between 5 speeds shipped on the NA imprezas vs the WRX's.

[jayguy]

Very cool link, thanks! Everything I wanted to know about the EZ30 and more.

[Turboguy]

I noted something interesting in the writeup in that the engine was a co-development between Subaru and Porsche.

Actually, I believe it was just the variable valve lift system in the engine that they said was co-developed -- and I'm not sure that has been confirmed. The author of the article did mention that the components in the valve lift system were supplied by a German company, however.

I wonder if this engine uses a Intermediate Shaft (IMS) for the valve timing chains? The M96 and M97 Porsche engines use an IMS bearing to support the shaft that is one of the weak links of that motor.

On the early engines one cylinder bank is direct to the crank and the other is off an idler driven by the first.
On the 3.6 there are 3 chains. A short one from the crank to the idler and then each bank driven off of that.
I am no sure about the 'middle' year EZ30R, but I assume the 2 chain system.

The telling tale will be what type of bearings are used on the Subaru's "idler" shaft, how they are lubricated, and if they are exposed to circulating engine oil. As I recall, in the troubled Porsche's a "sealed" type bearing (that wasn't quite as 'sealed" as they first thought). It was used in a location where it was routinely submersed in engine oil. When you add in the ridiculously long oil change interval they spec -something like every 24,000 miles- you end up with contaminated oil washing out the grease that lubricates this bearing, resulting in an eventual failure.

[Wayne Presley]

-Electronics packages (Wayne has indicated above he may have this covered, but it seems you would need a computer to run the engine and perhaps another setup for various lighting and ancillaries)

I definitely do have the electronics handled.

[Xusia]

I also believe the NA impreza brake system is less substantial than a wrx setup, so maybe the money saved on a NA impreza donor minus motor could be put towards a brembo setup. I also want to check into if there was any differences between 5 speeds shipped on the NA imprezas vs the WRX's.

At that point you might also consider the Wilwood's FFR is offering as an option...

[SkiRideDrive]

I definitely do have the electronics handled.

Wayne, I remember in the Grassroots videos you mentioned you may also be providing donor kits in the future, perhaps similar to the 818 donors crew. Would you consider offering a package which would include the H6/electronics along with the rest of the required donor materials? Juggling multiple donors in a community with an HOA could be difficult and a pallet would save a lot of time. Thanks for all your info!

[SkiRideDrive]

At that point you might also consider the Wilwood's FFR is offering as an option...

That is precisely what I meant to type. I think I just had the supermoto bike on my mind which runs Brembos.

[skullandbones]

I definitely do have the electronics handled.

Will the Electromotive EM system also have the other body harness circuits to make a complete system or is that a separate item? Thanks, WEK.

[Flamshackle]

Ah! this thread is awesome!

So keen to hear from FFR about the future of this motor in the 818.

[Wayne Presley]

Ah! this thread is awesome!

So keen to hear from FFR about the future of this motor in the 818.

Reread the first sentence of the thread.

"Disclaimer-FFR is not supporting the H6 in technical, parts or any other aspect. They are only supporting the 2.0 and 2.5L four cylinder engines. "

I am installing this motor because I like the sound. The 6 cylinder will make less HP than the built 2.0 I'm pulling out, will have to make a custom exhaust, custom water manifold for the dual water outlets, change the 4 cylinder TEC-S ECU for a 6 cylinder TEC-GT, rewire the new ECU and at least 5 other issues that I don't know about yet. It is not for the faint of heart.

[Wayne Presley]

Will the Electromotive EM system also have the other body harness circuits to make a complete system or is that a separate item? Thanks, WEK.

I sell the Electromotive system with a stand alone harness for the car. On the GRM car they showed up with no electrical on the car at all, we installed the harness and 45 minutes later we fired the motor with a fully wired car.