H6-EZ30 engine in the 818----IT FITS

[Frank818]

we installed the harness and 45 minutes later we fired the motor with a fully wired car.

45mins of harness building, plugging and map setup?

[Wayne Presley]

Frank, I sell a harness complete with Electromotive ECU that is pre built for the 818. You just lay the harness in the car, plug in the steering column connectors, plug in the engine connectors, plug in the dash connectors, hook up the battery and start the car. The ECU will come pre loaded with the base tune for the engine.

[Frank818]

Oh ok! Got it. Thought you were starting from scratch, wire by wire, cutting and prepping them all one by one.

[swine]

ok this is a game changer!!! great work Wayne!

I think a turbo 6 could make this little car a real hyper unit!

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

[skullandbones]

Frank, I sell a harness complete with Electromotive ECU that is pre built for the 818. You just lay the harness in the car, plug in the steering column connectors, plug in the engine connectors, plug in the dash connectors, hook up the battery and start the car. The ECU will come pre loaded with the base tune for the engine.

That just about brought a tear to my eye (tears of joy)!!! From way earlier discussions, it was pretty gloomy predictions of how it would be to get the wiring/ECU to work. Not knowing of a specific stand alone system was part of the ifyness of that discussion. So I have a question about the system. Now that you have said you will be a distributor and it will definitely work for the 818 (custom harness), will it be supported directly from California if there are issues or would we work through you? Do you have a ball park figure for a system like you did for GRM? Not trying to put you on the spot but this is such a big deal for going this route, it's important. If you would rather do it by PM that's OK too.

As far as the other mods, they sound pretty straightforward compared to some of the issues I've had with the roadster, like making room in my MKIII driver footbox for big feet and the brake and clutch placement and fitment. The only one that I'm not sure about is the exhaust modification (how much work!).

Thanks, Wayne. You've really let the genie out of the bottle! Thanks, WEK.

[AZPete]

What he said. I mean WEK.

[Wayne Presley]

The car harness, Electromotive TEC-S, software, engine harness and crank trigger wheel is $2100 for the 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder cars will get the Electromotive TEC-GT and will be $2495.

[Movieman]

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

If you take that lower figure of 418HP and use a wet weight of say 2100lbs with driver you are talking 5.02LBs/HP
Use the 466HP figure with the same parameters and your at 4.5LBs/HP
Yea, I think thats enough to add a spincter factor of 9.8 to the driving experience!
Of course if you used such a vechicle for a daily driver you'd have to add 20-30 minutes to your planned daily commute for the daily speeding ticket you'd be receiving.

[Wayne Presley]

C6 Z06 is about 6.1lbs per FWHP for reference. 466 WHP would equate to 3.2lbs/FWHP at 1800 lbs

[riptide motorsport]

Wow!

the car harness, electromotive tec-s, software, engine harness and crank trigger wheel is $2100 for the 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder cars will get the electromotive tec-gt and will be $2495.

[Xusia]

Am I missing something? What relevance does an E85 tune for a 2010 STi have on using an H6?

[Turboguy]

Uhh, well if we are talking power, the below is easily attainable, and affordable if you skip the head work. I believe thats all the hyper even the most daring drivers could handle, and thats a stock location turbo.

Awesome

NOW - go figure out how to make it sound like a Porsche flat-6. Come back when you do, and not before.

Am I missing something? What relevance does an E85 tune for a 2010 STi have on using an H6?

It is about as relevant as the price of bananas is to someone who only eats apples.

You are not missing anything.

[HelluvaEngineer]

Here is a graph for a turbo H6. Over 700HP From 5,200RPM to 6,500 RPM

ALEXMimpreza.jpg

[HelluvaEngineer]

Here is an interesting graph comparing an STi with the turbo H6. from Perrin.

edit: Why are the images so small?

h607sti30r.jpg

[Wayne Presley]

Here is a graph for a turbo H6. Over 700HP From 5,200RPM to 6,500 RPM

ALEXMimpreza.jpg

Here is an interesting graph comparing an STi with the turbo H6. from Perrin.

edit: Why are the images so small?

h607sti30r.jpg

None of those motors would be fun to drive on the street
3000 rpm 125 hp 200 tq
4000 rpm 260 hp 325 tq
5000 rpm 525 hp 550 tq

[mobius]

Yea no power to 4k that would not be fun at all... I would much rather have 4-5oo hp and have usable 2-3000k up power band.

[HelluvaEngineer]

Yep I agree. I was just comparing the STI engine chart posted. It would have similarly poor street drive-ability issues. Here is the plot with the smaller turbo on the H6. This one would be FUN on the street. 250 ft/lbs of wheel torque at 3K RPM. 440 peak Wheel HP.
Fun in my legacy GT, but probably to much for the 818. Unless there was some serious work on traction control


h6original.jpg

[Xusia]

Yep I agree. I was just comparing the STI engine chart posted. It would have similarly poor street drive-ability issues. Here is the plot with the smaller turbo on the H6. This one would be FUN on the street. 250 ft/lbs of wheel torque at 3K RPM. 440 peak Wheel HP.
Fun in my legacy GT, but probably to much for the 818. Unless there was some serious work on traction control


h6original.jpg

I don't know. That last turbo H6 graph doesn't really look all that "good" to me. Comparing the two, you trading a LOT of midrange grunt (which admittedly could be a problem for such a light car) for a few peak HP (where I could see turbo lag being an issue). Which tune I would prefer would depend on throttle response and how they drive I think.

[AMW1011]

Yep I agree. I was just comparing the STI engine chart posted. It would have similarly poor street drive-ability issues. Here is the plot with the smaller turbo on the H6. This one would be FUN on the street. 250 ft/lbs of wheel torque at 3K RPM. 440 peak Wheel HP.
Fun in my legacy GT, but probably to much for the 818. Unless there was some serious work on traction control


h6original.jpg

Even that is a bit too aggressive. Its not necessarily the amount of power that would make that dangerous, but the way its delivered. With these little cars your going to want to tune for much more linear power. That would be fun in a legacy because the aggressive onset of power gives an even greater sense of speed, but in an 818 that onset will put you into a tree.

Your point still stands though, there is no greater power to be had from a turbocharged H6. The only performance advantage I could see would be having the slightly higher bottom end torque before the boost hits, but that's almost irrelevant.

[Evan78]

If there's going to be a discussion of the 3.0 vs 2.5, the obvious point that should be made is that the H6 will make more low end power than a 2.5, just as the 2.5 has more low end than the 2.0. The chart HelluvaEngineer posted in post #134 shows a 3.0 vs 2.5 with different turbos. The point Perrin was making was that you could have identical low end to a 2.5 with way more top end. If those 2 setups had the same size turbo, you'd see the 3.0 chart shifted to the left, making more low end power than the 2.5.

I know this is obvious to many here, but it seems that some people only recall peak numbers, hence you get someone saying something like "check out this great H6 making 400whp" and someone comes along says "big deal, here's a 2.5 that makes 400whp, why bother with a 3.0?" even though the curves show that the power bands are different aside from having the same peak number.

[Wayne Presley]

These powerbands come from low compression ratios, large turbos and big turbine A/R just to make big HP numbers. They are not fun to drive. I've always been on the other side of the fence by doing higher compression and lower boost to get a moderate HP level, nearly zero lag and broad powerband. If I can get 270 RWHP with 6lbs of boost I'll be happy.

[Frank818]

Don't know for others, but I want the flattest torque curve with around 325-350whp/wtq. Reliable of course. I don't care much about the rest and displacement. If the winner is a 2.0, so be it. I just won't have the Porsche sound.

[skullandbones]

The performance discussions are interesting. It's hot rod human nature. I personally like a linear hp curve that bisects the graph and a flat torque curve. At least, that has always worked for me and the type of driving I like.

I would also like to see some of the other aspects of the H6 fitment. I wasn't sure if Wayne is installing the EZ30 just for kicks and taking back out or if he's going to build it that way or maybe one of each. I remember seeing some custom headers that might work well depending on how they clear the suspension components (of course, can't find it now). The angle of the flange/tubes can make all the difference in the world as to how well they would stay toward the centerline and miss the suspension links. A good TIG welder can fix that problem real quick and probably not even show they had been cut. WEK.

[Wayne Presley]

There are spaces big enough to fit the exhaust through and I have 2 TIG welders and am not afraid to use them

[Frank818]

The car harness, Electromotive TEC-S, software, engine harness and crank trigger wheel is $2100 for the 4 cylinder cars. The 6 cylinder cars will get the Electromotive TEC-GT and will be $2495.

So what are the advantages of such a system over a re-mapped OEM ECU using OEM harness?

[Wayne Presley]

Fully programable ECU, the harness weighs 14 lbs vs 46 for the oem harness, you can add a turbo easily, change injector sizes, has CAN to run race dashes, run shift lights, boost control, data logging, harness just plugs into the motor and steering column just to name a few...

[skullandbones]

I don't think you can find a OEM harness that will support a manual transmission with the EZ30. Aren't they all automatics? If you found one outside the US would it be something that could be upgraded and support your needs? I think you would be getting back into the discussions of maybe it can be done but how to do it exactly. JMO and past discussions, WEK.

[Frank818]

Wayne, I see. That's what I thought. For those who want logging or easy upgradeability, it's a must.
But for those who will run OEM engine or a Stage x something from some kit or place somewhere which would have a re-mapped ECU, as long as they don't need logging or upgrade later on (and no race stuff), they'd be fine too.
So it's a matter of what are your intentions/needs, as pretty much anything else is around this car! lolll

[Xusia]

These powerbands come from low compression ratios, large turbos and big turbine A/R just to make big HP numbers. They are not fun to drive. I've always been on the other side of the fence by doing higher compression and lower boost to get a moderate HP level, nearly zero lag and broad powerband. If I can get 270 RWHP with 6lbs of boost I'll be happy.

I knew there was a reason I liked you Wayne!

Don't know for others, but I want the flattest torque curve with around 325-350whp/wtq. Reliable of course. I don't care much about the rest and displacement. If the winner is a 2.0, so be it. I just won't have the Porsche sound.

Yep!

[Xusia]

Question on the ECU, Wayne: Does the package previously mentioned (for the 4cyl) support multiple maps? For instance, if I wanted to switch between petrol and E85 tunes?

[Wayne Presley]

Question on the ECU, Wayne: Does the package previously mentioned (for the 4cyl) support multiple maps? For instance, if I wanted to switch between petrol and E85 tunes?

Sure, you can have a map for either fuel. You will want to adjust the timing with E 85 as well as the fueling change.

[Xusia]

I wasn't specific so I apologize. I meant, can these be switched on the fly? So if I run the tank to nearly empty on petrol, roll into the station, fill with E85, could I switch the map right there while I'm fueling without a computer or special tuner of any sort?

[D K]

Does the TEC-s have more control than the vipec plug in?

[Canadian818]

There are a number of standalone ecu's being used on ez30's, but I haven't come across anyone using the Tec-GT. Will it be able run the avcs?

So far the most common ones are Hydra (used by Perrin in '05), Link G4, and vipec v88. The last two appear to be identical hardware but branded and supported seperatly. All three have base maps available, run avcs, and have shops that make PnP harnesses.

[Wayne Presley]

Does the TEC-s have more control than the vipec plug in?

I am not familiar with the Vipec but since the TEC series will do everything I've ever needed and still had unused outputs I'd say yes.

There are a number of standalone ecu's being used on ez30's, but I haven't come across anyone using the Tec-GT. Will it be able run the avcs?

So far the most common ones are Hydra (used by Perrin in '05), Link G4, and vipec v88. The last two appear to be identical hardware but branded and supported seperatly. All three have base maps available, run avcs, and have shops that make PnP harnesses.

I've used the Hydra and worked decent on a turbo miata, I pulled one off a Lotus because it would never consistently work well. The PNP harnesses are great for a car like the WRX but not so much for the 818. Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

[HelluvaEngineer]

I am not familiar with the Vipec but since the TEC series will do everything I've ever needed and still had unused outputs I'd say yes.



I've used the Hydra and worked decent on a turbo miata, I pulled one off a Lotus because it would never consistently work well. The PNP harnesses are great for a car like the WRX but not so much for the 818. Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

Here in Georgia, I will probably need to pass an OBDII emmision test. The test stations wont check for other compliance, but they will plug it into the computer, check the gas cap. I would love a drop in system for the EZ30 with a manual transmission. Will these computer systems work that way? If not, what would you recommend? I would probably either go NA or higher compression (9:1) and limit the boost to 6 or 7 pounds wit a small very responsive turbo.

[Xusia]

Asking again, because I think it got lost in the other questions:

I wasn't specific so I apologize. I meant, can these be switched on the fly? So if I run the tank to nearly empty on petrol, roll into the station, fill with E85, could I switch the map right there while I'm fueling without a computer or special tuner of any sort?

[D K]

I'll take Wayne's harness please...

Is the harness available separately, or only with the TEC-s?

Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

[Frank818]

Because why would you want to deal with the huge OEM harness, diet it down when you could get a car harness and flying harness for the engine. Or you could get a drop in harness from me with the ECU and have your car wired and running in 45 minutes?

Someone tight on his budget will probably go OEM, espacially if the intention is to plug OEM stuff, never upgrade and no need for race gizmos.
But with all the huge list of add-ons you have for us, we can't be tight on the budget, cuz we want all of them! lolll

[Wayne Presley]

Asking again, because I think it got lost in the other questions:

I wasn't specific so I apologize. I meant, can these be switched on the fly? So if I run the tank to nearly empty on petrol, roll into the station, fill with E85, could I switch the map right there while I'm fueling without a computer or special tuner of any sort?

Yes you can. I have another more expensive ECU that uses a flex fuel sensor that measures the percentage of ethanol in the fuel and adjusts on the fly for the actual fuel going into the motor.