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Thread: Bob and Mike's 818Se Build Thread

  1. #41
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    Looks familiar... Check my thread and Mechies...
    I found that I couldn't use the heavy metal washer on the inside of the LCA bushing and get them to align. Remove them and retorque, I think you will find that they align better.

    Insert the front bolt through and rotate the arm forward to align the bolts. Check front to rear position with a straight edge (broom handle test) to make sure that both of the control arms position the arm at the same distance from the straight edge across the frame brackets. After you have done this you can determine where you may need to grind to adjust the holes. Can't tell from the photos, make sure the LCA bushing has the slight indent on the bottom of the bushing. I found that the arms were positioned the same using the frame's lower mount holes and I had to "adjust" the upper holes slightly... I adjusted the aluminum bushing on the right (side to side alignment issue) and the steel bracket of the left upper mount (front to back issue)

    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Build-Thread/ see posts 95 & 124 photos
    Hi RM1SepEx
    Thanks for your response.
    I don't have any heavy metal washers on my LCA. Maybe the Aluminum ones are different.
    The broom handle test will determine if the two wheels are straight across from each other. What if both side need to come forward a 1/2" to center the wheel in the wheel well?
    Bob
    Bob

  2. #42
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    I know the LCA fitment has been discussed on 3 or 4 other threads before. I don't think there was a conclusion how to fix it.
    So here is my situation and questions.
    Attachment 20960
    The arm is mounted in the outer holes as my donor was a wagon. After tightening the front bolt, the rear aluminum bushing natural position was closer to the inside holes. I had to cut the gusset to get the bushing between the 2 mounting plates.
    Attachment 20961
    I pulled the bushing outward to align the top hole as shown above.
    Should I pull it out more to align the bottom hole?
    Should I split the difference?
    Should I drill aluminum or steel to make the bolts go through?

    Here is the picture of the left side.
    Attachment 20962
    If I pull this side out another 1/4", the holes will be close horizontally. A 1/4" movement horizontally of the bracket moves the wheel 1/4" forward or backward in the well.
    Can someone from FFR give me a couple of dimension from a frame ref point to the center on the lower ball joint stud So I can determine correct position.

    yes you do have heavy washers on the lolipop LCA bushings...
    look at you photo of the left (driver's side) control arm Attachment 20962

    first you need to cut off the threads beyond the nut, they will hit the aluminum on that side

    that bushing has, in order, nut, heavy washer, funky rubber washer, bushing, funky rubber washer, heavy metal washer, control arm.

    If you don't use that washer it moves the control arm bushing forward a 1/16 or so. My arms required that washer to be removed or it just didn't fit in the forward LCA bracket... on both sides

    I tried and never got a dimension from F5 re exactly where the ball joint should be... Everyone else that I communicated with was right around where my arms came out... I'm keeping my fingers crossed re body position. I can at least assure myself that they are in the same place side to side. I disagree as to the conclusion of how to fix it...

    left, clip the vertical bracket a wee bit 1/4 should do it, I did about 1/2, twas too much. You may need to elongate the hole towards the rear a bit on the upper metal bracket, the lower bracket should work fine
    right, you may need to elongate the aluminum lolipop's hole a wee bit, mine was between 1/4 and 3/8 of an inch. The lower should be fine. Some had to clip the vertical section of the upper bracket, again 1/4 or so to get them to fit.

    Since you are using the front pivot as fixtured and the two lower rear lolipop holes, we all are placing our lower ball joints in the same place. there is some "slop" in the hioles and you can make them as even as possible when you verify their position relative to each other with a straight edge or broom stick

    I'l measure my exact wheelbase soon and confirm. The rear suspension placement is non adjustable when you use the stock trailing arm.
    Last edited by RM1SepEx; 08-25-2013 at 05:42 PM.
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  3. #43
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    yes you do have heavy washers on the lolipop LCA bushings...
    look at you photo of the left (driver's side) control arm Attachment 20962

    first you need to cut off the threads beyond the nut, they will hit the aluminum on that side

    that bushing has, in order, nut, heavy washer, funky rubber washer, bushing, funky rubber washer, heavy metal washer, control arm.

    If you don't use that washer it moves the control arm bushing forward a 1/16 or so. My arms required that washer to be removed or it just didn't fit in the forward LCA bracket... on both sides

    I tried and never got a dimension from F5 re exactly where the ball joint should be... Everyone else that I communicated with was right around where my arms came out... I'm keeping my fingers crossed re body position. I can at least assure myself that they are in the same place side to side. I disagree as to the conclusion of how to fix it...

    left, clip the vertical bracket a wee bit 1/4 should do it, I did about 1/2, twas too much. You may need to elongate the hole towards the rear a bit on the upper metal bracket, the lower bracket should work fine
    right, you may need to elongate the aluminum lolipop's hole a wee bit, mine was between 1/4 and 3/8 of an inch. The lower should be fine. Some had to clip the vertical section of the upper bracket, again 1/4 or so to get them to fit.

    Since you are using the front pivot as fixtured and the two lower rear lolipop holes, we all are placing our lower ball joints in the same place. there is some "slop" in the hioles and you can make them as even as possible when you verify their position relative to each other with a straight edge or broom stick

    I'l measure my exact wheelbase soon and confirm. The rear suspension placement is non adjustable when you use the stock trailing arm.
    Hi Dan,
    The front side washer you have on the alum LCA is a separate part. On the steel arm I will call it a non-removable welded on flange. I could grind it away.
    Here is a couple more pictures:
    P1040604z.jpg
    lca.jpg
    lca adjustment.jpg

    I didn't design this LCA, but I believe Subaru uses the metal washers (or flange) are to prevent longitudinal movement of the LCA. During heavy braking you could have 1000 lbs (this is a WAG) of rearward force on the LCA.

    Let me know the result of your wheelbase measurements.
    Thanks
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 08-25-2013 at 08:00 PM.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Installed suspension

    Michael and I fitted up all four corners of the suspension.
    Every thing is only finger tight.
    We should have a glider with brakes and steering by the end of the week.
    I know where a big hill is.

    P1040606s.jpg

    P1040609s.jpg

    P1040610s.jpg
    Bob
    Attached Images Attached Images

  5. #45
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    That washer/flange could make for some assembly issues since they used the aluminum arms for their prototypes and on every photo that I could find that shows the bushing no inner washer is present!

    There is no way that my LCA and bushing could line up w/o much more grinding of the alignment holes if I used those washers with my LCAs

    It looks like you are coming along. Do you plan on full assembly without painting the frame then disassembly, paint, reassemble?
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  6. #46
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    That washer/flange could make for some assembly issues since they used the aluminum arms for their prototypes and on every photo that I could find that shows the bushing no inner washer is present!

    There is no way that my LCA and bushing could line up w/o much more grinding of the alignment holes if I used those washers with my LCAs

    It looks like you are coming along. Do you plan on full assembly without painting the frame then disassembly, paint, reassemble?
    P1040605s.jpg

    Hi Dan
    I'm cutting steel today per the attached picture. The top hole about 1/4" in the 11 o'clock direction. The bottom hole 1/4" in the 10 o'clock direction. Then the opposite of that on the other side.
    After the go kart stage, I will disassembly, powder, reassemble.
    Thanks Bob.

  7. #47
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    we were all able to get a bolt into the hole on the left and just modify the one on the right on that left LCA bushing. I found that if I modified my inside hole I messed up my LCA location fore and aft... you want to get it even side to side
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  8. #48
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    That weld looks pretty rugged. maybe it's just the picture.
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longislandwrx View Post
    That weld looks pretty rugged. maybe it's just the picture.
    welds.jpg

    Here is a better picture of a typical welds. looks good to me, but I'm not qualified.
    Bob

  10. #50
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
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    Yeah the welds I saw at the open house were all top notch, had to be just that picture.
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Steering rack issue and track width problem.

    Help
    I believe I have my steering rack installed correctly except for the BO spacers. (2006 NA impreza wagon)
    My steering rack is 3 revolution lock to lock. I rotated it back 1.5 turns to the middle.
    I adjusted my diver side tie-rod in about 2" until the hub was straight.
    The left rod doesn't touch the tie rod end with that hub straight forward.
    Any Ideas?

    Next issue (maybe related)
    My front track width (wheel mounting surface) is 63"
    My rear track width (wheel mounting surface) is 60.5"
    A 2.5 inch difference.
    Any Ideas?
    See pictures below.
    P1040613s.jpg

    P1040617s.jpg

  12. #52
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Help
    I believe I have my steering rack installed correctly except for the BO spacers. (2006 NA impreza wagon)
    My steering rack is 3 revolution lock to lock. I rotated it back 1.5 turns to the middle.
    I adjusted my diver side tie-rod in about 2" until the hub was straight.
    The left rod doesn't touch the tie rod end with that hub straight forward.
    Any Ideas?

    Next issue (maybe related)
    My front track width (wheel mounting surface) is 63"
    My rear track width (wheel mounting surface) is 60.5"
    A 2.5 inch difference.
    Any Ideas?
    See pictures below.
    P1040613s.jpg

    P1040617s.jpg
    To help me solve this problem. Can someone measure the distance between lower ball studs at normal ride height?
    Thanks
    Bob

  13. #53
    Mechie3's Avatar
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    The distance on my steering rack is 56" with the hubs pointed straight, aluminum arms mounted on the inner holes.
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  14. #54
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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  15. #55
    Senior Member Silvertop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Gotta love that! That's the story of my life!

  16. #56
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Adjusting rear suspension

    On the rear suspension, does anyone have the lengths of the upper and lower lateral links. I now have adjustables in both places.
    Thanks Bob
    P1040617s.jpg
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 10-23-2013 at 09:07 AM.

  17. #57
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    It doesn't come adjustable by default?
    Frank
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    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  18. #58
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    It doesn't come adjustable by default?
    The lower lateral links are OEM fixed length. The top lateral link is with the kit and is adjustable.

  19. #59
    Mechie3's Avatar
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    I think I posted measurements of the lateral link (oem) in RM1's thread. I think you'd set the lower one where you want/need it, then use the top to set the camber.
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  20. #60
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    lower links 16.5 inches center to center IIRC
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  21. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    The lower lateral links are OEM fixed length. The top lateral link is with the kit and is adjustable.
    FFR have sent me two new adjustable rear lower links. They say:

    "The Rear Toe adjustment range (from the cam bolt...not stated) does not allow for enough range to get the proper spec (too much toe in). Adjustable toe links are included to allow the car to be aligned without having to grind or modify the bracket."

    Nice looking links, especially compared to the OEM steel ones.

    Rear Link 2.jpgRear Link 1.jpg

  22. #62
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    what is your chassis # I got those a while back (and noted in my build thread) My chassis is # 17
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  23. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    what is your chassis # I got those a while back (and noted in my build thread) My chassis is # 17
    Mine is # 18. I also got "a package" which included them but have only just got to "the details". From the last few posts on this thread, it seemed that this was not widely known.

    fred

  24. #64
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Help
    I believe I have my steering rack installed correctly except for the BO spacers. (2006 NA impreza wagon)
    My steering rack is 3 revolution lock to lock. I rotated it back 1.5 turns to the middle.
    I adjusted my diver side tie-rod in about 2" until the hub was straight.
    The left rod doesn't touch the tie rod end with that hub straight forward.
    Any Ideas?

    Next issue (maybe related)
    My front track width (wheel mounting surface) is 63"
    My rear track width (wheel mounting surface) is 60.5"
    A 2.5 inch difference.
    Any Ideas?
    See pictures below.
    P1040613s.jpg

    P1040617s.jpg
    your wagon was 2 inches narrower... I'm guessing that you need longer tie rod ends.. If we have the same rack and your arms are 1 inch shorter (you had to use the alternate mounts) it makes sense... detailed photo of your tie rod ends with lengths and we canb compare to my WRX parts! It could also be that the rods from the rack to the tie rod are longer, if that is the case I have an extra set around here somewhere!
    Last edited by RM1SepEx; 09-19-2013 at 07:02 PM.
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  25. #65
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freds View Post
    FFR have sent me two new adjustable rear lower links. They say:

    "The Rear Toe adjustment range (from the cam bolt...not stated) does not allow for enough range to get the proper spec (too much toe in). Adjustable toe links are included to allow the car to be aligned without having to grind or modify the bracket."

    Nice looking links, especially compared to the OEM steel ones.

    Rear Link 2.jpgRear Link 1.jpg
    The one per side adjustable lower link is only for early chassis where there wasn't enough toe adjustment. FFR is/has fixed this.

  26. #66
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    your wagon was 2 inches narrower... I'm guessing that you need longer tie rod ends.. If we have the same rack and your arms are 1 inch shorter (you had to use the alternate mounts) it makes sense... detailed photo of your tie rod ends with lengths and we canb compare to my WRX parts! It could also be that the rods from the rack to the tie rod are longer, if that is the case I have an extra set around here somewhere!
    Thanks Dan
    I have gone through a learning experience with the wagon donor.
    The wagon is only 20mm narrower than the sedan. The steering rack (center section) is shorter. I used the alternate holes.
    Jim and I worked on this problem and he has a solution for the front.
    I have moved on to the rear suspension.
    Bob
    chassis #21 bob's #22 mikes
    Bob_Mike_s.jpg
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 09-19-2013 at 10:00 PM.

  27. #67
    Senior Member wleehendrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Thanks Dan
    I have gone through a learning experience with the wagon donor.
    The wagon is only 20mm narrower than the sedan. The steering rack (center section) is shorter. I used the alternate holes.
    Jim and I worked on this problem and he has a solution for the front.
    Hi Bob, do you know what the solution to the shorter rack is (I would assume a longer set of tie rods or ends would be the easiest)? I ask because my donor is also a wagon and my completion date is coming up (Oct 12). I hope that the solution is already incorporated in my kit, however, my order configuration (80513, 2006-2007 Turbo) doesn't differentiate between sedan and wagon, so I guess I'll have to request the fix.

    Thanks,

    Lee

  28. #68
    Senior Member Silvertop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wleehendrick View Post
    Hi Bob, do you know what the solution to the shorter rack is (I would assume a longer set of tie rods or ends would be the easiest)? I ask because my donor is also a wagon and my completion date is coming up (Oct 12). I hope that the solution is already incorporated in my kit, however, my order configuration (80513, 2006-2007 Turbo) doesn't differentiate between sedan and wagon, so I guess I'll have to request the fix.

    Thanks,

    Lee
    I will be interested in that too. My donor is also a wagon (Outback Sport).

  29. #69
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    seating position testing

    Doing some seating position testing.
    Mike and I are big guys. Mike is 6ft 250# with a curved back.
    P1040642c_zps30dc24f1.jpg

    I am 6ft and 280#
    P1040644c_zps12c9a32d.jpg


    Car looks very wide in this head on picture
    P1040646c_zpse7642e2b.jpg

    In this test I have a 1.5" block of wood under the steering column mount. The built in tilt is also all the way down.

    This test seat can be dropped down another 1.5". I'll try that today.
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 09-21-2013 at 10:53 AM.

  30. #70
    PLATNUM Supporting Member
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    I am going to have to lower my column as well. Not sure why FFR mounts it so high. Maybe so it works with stock seats.

  31. #71
    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Sorry if I missed it, but why no powder coat or paint?
    Thanks- Chad
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  32. #72
    Mechie3's Avatar
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    I think the wheel is high so you can get in the car. With my bimarco seats the mounts are about 2" tall and with them all the way back on the x brace the wheel is in my lap. Bob has his seats farther back in the gas tank area. I'd like the wheel lower myself though. Bobs wheel position looks more natural.
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  33. #73
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C.Plavan View Post
    Sorry if I missed it, but why no powder coat or paint?
    two reasons
    I'm putting in an electric propulsion system, I need to do some frame modifications for motor and battery mounting.
    I'm not going with black.
    Once I get running in go-kart mode. I will disassemble-powder-reassemble.
    Bob

  34. #74
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Bob, your feet will be way back from the bulkhead because of the pedals... At least you can use all the cockpit space with no fuel tank to worry about!
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  35. #75
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    Bob, your feet will be way back from the bulkhead because of the pedals... At least you can use all the cockpit space with no fuel tank to worry about!
    Hi Dan
    I don't have a gasoline tank. But I do need about 6 cubic feet of battery energy storage for the range I want. There is 8 gallons in a cubic ft. So I need to find a spot for a 48 gallon tank.

    I was going to put a box behind the seat 12"x48"x12". Now I'm looking at a Boyd style battery box with only 2 cubic feet..
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 09-22-2013 at 05:56 PM.

  36. #76
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    what form factor batteries are you using? You should be able to modify the center tunnel... What KWH for a target? Range desired?
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  37. #77
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Hi Dan
    I have a bunch of lithium large prismatic cells and some large cylindrical cells. Could use either, maybe both in the 2 cars to compare performance.
    28kwh 120 miles, but don't quote me on that, my bucket list changes daily.

    The chassis needs to be about 6" wider for me to use the center tunnel.
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 09-22-2013 at 07:19 PM.

  38. #78
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Bob, with the current technology (or should I say the one you will be using), can we roughly say "the bigger the battery the more powerful"? So if we want more power and more range we need to think big?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  39. #79
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Bob, with the current technology (or should I say the one you will be using), can we roughly say "the bigger the battery the more powerful"? So if we want more power and more range we need to think big?
    Not always true. In our electric superbike, we have a relatively small pack outputting out north of 200 HP.

    http://youtu.be/4cX-_eB8nkk

    Battery companies normally try to balance between power, energy, life. Some companies have power cells and energy cells in the same form factor.

  40. #80
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Your motor and diff can't take that much space, with no radiator in front too you should have plenty of space. It's easier if designed electric from the outset for sure. too bad the form factors don't allow a centralized battery location. Willing to let out any more drivetrain details? Voltage, amps, controller, motor? Single speed?
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

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