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Thread: Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

  1. #1841
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Fired that weird engine up.

    Good news and again bad news.

    Good news is the cam timing is spot on.

    Quickly forgot about that success and moved on the next bad news. After about 7mins when the engine got up to 80C which is normal operation, oil pressure triggered my ECU's low warning alarm. 40sec later the car was in the garage and shut off.

    After reading on that, normally I should have 20psi at idle at the minimum. I was under 5. This happened too when I had my cams 180-deg out of phase, I even had 0psi on one gauge, however I believe under a certain small number it's less accurate. I have 2 oil pressure gauges, one for ECU and one for dash. They are of a completely different design and both were showing alarming results. They are located on the oil filter housing.

    My guess is that when I removed the head I flushed all oil inside it and I changed the filter too, filled up to 75%. Maybe I didn't put enough oil back in the engine after that.
    It's also possible my OEM dipstick is not very accurate due to the engine being installed at a slightly different angle than OEM.
    In the last minute of running I was hearing the lifters louder than usual and more than at cold start. This makes me think it was oil starving. Or there is air in the oil and I would need to flush and replace.

    I put more in now, will probably add even more tonight. Hopefully weather will allow me to re-start tomorrow and hopefully the oil level was the problem. Oil pump was new and did work well before the timing issue.

    At cold start I also have a low level, 54psi, should be around 80-90.


    Again, if it's oil level, it would be my mistake.
    What happens if I put too much oil in the engine? I'll google that.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  2. #1842
    Senior Member DSR-3's Avatar
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    Pull the plugs and crank it until you get reasonable pressure. Until that happens I would not light it. Is it a stock oiling system, or have you added remote filter, cooler, etc? If not stock, maybe some priming and filling of lines/components is needed. I can't envision how cam phasing etc. can affect oil pressure or delivery- though I know nothing about that funky engine of yours...
    Good luck!
    818S #332, EZ30R H6, California licensed 01/2019

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  4. #1843
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSR-3 View Post
    Pull the plugs and crank it until you get reasonable pressure. Until that happens I would not light it. Is it a stock oiling system, or have you added remote filter, cooler, etc? If not stock, maybe some priming and filling of lines/components is needed. I can't envision how cam phasing etc. can affect oil pressure or delivery- though I know nothing about that funky engine of yours...
    Good luck!
    Couldn't wait tomorrow so I started the engine in my garage with door open while you posted. Bad for lungs but hey, gotta die for that car, right.

    I cranked it without fuel and fire prior to that, however I had the plugs in. Should I really get them out?

    I wasn't able to get pressure over 5psi white cranking dry. Or was it 10psi, can't recall... however those numbers are too low.
    Still fired it up afterwards and same problem, around 65C pressure was at 8psi around 900-1000rpm. Shut off.

    I put even more oil in it. Now I started to see a clean oil line pattern on the dipstick. It's at the maximum level right now, on the gauge.


    Not stock. I have a low profile oil pan, a VR6 R32 pump which has a lower profile in order to fit in the pan, I have a non-stock filter housing, a non-stock sandwich plate (never had one OEM) to divert to a non-stock oil cooler (never had one OEM). All those parts were on the car last time the oil pressure was right.
    I already had filled the cooler and lines this Spring.
    I did not have that low pressure prior to my bent valve, so I was able to idle hours and drive 11km. Now after 5-6mins of idling I get a warning light and I See it coming way before that.


    So something changed SINCE my bent valve.

    I'll see tomorrow if adding more oil over the more oil of tonight did the trick.
    If not, I guess flushing oil and then removing oil pump to check whatever, I don't know.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  5. #1844

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    Just a wild shot, drain some of it and see if it seems about right for viscosity. Gremlins managed to get fuel into it somehow??? Other than mechanical flow issues viscosity thinned out would be another guess. No clue how that would happen but until you find the problem who knows.
    Art Quillen

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  7. #1845
    Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    Frank, did you find anything in the oil filter or in the drained oil?
    That system was contaminated for what I could see in your pictures ( very fine grit/ flakes) so it could be a blocked sending unit opening.
    It could be a missing plug of the oil system passages in the new components.
    Pressure is restriction to flow and it seems to me that you have no restriction to it, if the g-rotors or the housing of the pump were scored from passing metal it will show some low pressure but not of the values you're seeing
    A good working pump even with low supply will foam the oil as it cavitates and make the indication "jerky" and not a steady state.

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  9. #1846
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    I cranked it without fuel and fire prior to that, however I had the plugs in. Should I really get them out?
    Yes, most definitely. Keeping the plugs in means you are compressing the air in the cylinders while cranking, which puts a load on your bearings. Obviously, this is fine if you're getting good oil pressure but if not, you're going to be putting wear on the bearings.

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  11. #1847
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    So now I have a fuel problem.
    I'll answer some posts before.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetfuel View Post
    Frank, did you find anything in the oil filter or in the drained oil?
    That system was contaminated for what I could see in your pictures ( very fine grit/ flakes) so it could be a blocked sending unit opening.
    It could be a missing plug of the oil system passages in the new components.
    Pressure is restriction to flow and it seems to me that you have no restriction to it, if the g-rotors or the housing of the pump were scored from passing metal it will show some low pressure but not of the values you're seeing
    A good working pump even with low supply will foam the oil as it cavitates and make the indication "jerky" and not a steady state.
    I did not find anything in the oil, but I think I'll order 8-9 quarts again and put new oil in. I checked the Bentley manual and surprisingly I am still within specs! The VW low pressure warning sensor triggers at 0.3bar and when hot I see 0.35-0.4bar, it does not go under that at hot idle.
    Then Bentley says at steady 2000rpm I have to have 29psi or more. Mine varied between 25 ans 35psi, depending under load or no load and some other variables.

    Besides I'm using an SAE30 oil (no first number), the Amsoil Break-in oil, which they claim reduces friction. I think it's thinner too.

    That being said I may have something in the oil or in the pump as well. Complete draining should be done I believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by STiPWRD View Post
    Yes, most definitely. Keeping the plugs in means you are compressing the air in the cylinders while cranking, which puts a load on your bearings. Obviously, this is fine if you're getting good oil pressure but if not, you're going to be putting wear on the bearings.
    That's exactly what I read this morning and I did removed before cranking.



    I decided to run the engine anyway since according to VW specs I was ok, although on the very low end.
    After 2 runs around the parking lot I decided to take the public road that connects one end of the parking to the other by a different entrance.
    When I came back I stopped in front of my garage as I always do, just in case.

    The car died while stopping. Couldn't be restarted.
    No leaks at all. No smell, temps seemed fine. Then fuel pressure when the pump pressurizes the rail at the very moment I turn on the ECU, showed 11psi. Should be 60. When cranking, 10-15psi. I have no fuel pressure.

    Didn't see that one coming. I'll troubleshoot the pump but first I'll add some fuel in the tank, just in case. I had something like over 20 litres (5 gallons or something) in May, maybe all the idling burnt all the fuel and without any warning the pump cannot suck any more in. If that's the case, then it's scary cuz it's impossible to see it coming looking at the fuel gauge.
    The pump is a real AEM real pump, not a Chinese knock-off.

    Imagine if that would have happened at the stop sign on the road just before I left turn to enter the parking lot 50ft later. Or worse, somewhere else on the roads.

    This is exactly why I am absolutely totally scared to drive this car on public roads. There's always something breaking within 30mins and it happens suddenly without the possibility to come back in my garage. It is also very dangerous cuz what if it stops on the roads and causes an accident.

    This is my 6th issue since May in 6 driving attempts. I bet it's my mistake again, let's hope so could be easier to fix.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  12. #1848
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Didn't put quite my finger in the fuel pressure yet but it is between the ECU and the pump. Either electrical or mechanical (pump). The pump does not prime at all, does not make noise at all, it's dead. The 10psi was the pressure left in the FPR it has now gone down at 8 and probbly less by now.

    I'm removing the rear FW and will take a look. Let's have fun working on that issue, now.
    Honestly guys I don't see how I will ever be able to gain confidence on this car. Anything can break at any moment without any warning. Scary. I've got the scariest car in the world for sure. It's worth a milion bucks, then!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  13. #1849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Didn't put quite my finger in the fuel pressure yet but it is between the ECU and the pump. Either electrical or mechanical (pump). The pump does not prime at all, does not make noise at all, it's dead. The 10psi was the pressure left in the FPR it has now gone down at 8 and probbly less by now.

    I'm removing the rear FW and will take a look. Let's have fun working on that issue, now.
    Honestly guys I don't see how I will ever be able to gain confidence on this car. Anything can break at any moment without any warning. Scary. I've got the scariest car in the world for sure. It's worth a milion bucks, then!
    It's all about building character Frank. You'll be qualified to go toe to toe with John Wayne by time this project is over.

  14. #1850
    Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    Frank....don’t be pulling an Administrator here.....check fuse and/or relay

  15. #1851
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    AN FFR PART FAILED!

    Thank god it's not my mistake for once!

    Yes Jet, I did check fuse and even powering pump directly at the connector on the fuel tank.
    No result.

    Then I removed the pump.

    I unplugged the connector at the pump at the bottom and I had a 100% resistance on the ground, between the gold pin and connector. This is why I don't get power to the pump. But then where?

    I then went up the ground line until I found that the gold pin is disconnected from its ring terminal right underneath. It's part of the plug embedded within the part. Wow how possible?

    Who else has got this failing?

    What's the FFR part number now on that whole fuel pump holder, maybe they perfected the design. If I order a new one and it's the same design, it may fail again. And it ain't funny!


    2019-08-09 16.13.56.jpg2019-08-09 16.14.08.jpg

    It looks as if the ground pin has overheated as the plastic surrounding the pin seemed to have melted. But maybe it was like this from the start and it's normal.


    This means I can't start up for quite some time, now.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  16. #1852
    Senior Member Hobby Racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    AN FFR PART FAILED!
    Well, not quite. If that's the donor fuel pump and bracket, it's a Subaru part!
    MK3.1 Roadster completed 2011
    818R built with EZ36R H6 completed 2018

  17. #1853
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Not from donor at all, it's the aluminum fuel pump holder with embedded connector that comes with the kit, or at least used to come back for chassis #181 and prior. After 181 I don't know.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  18. #1854
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    It's this part, the fuel mounting bracket. Taken from FFR's manual. Gotta find part number on this.

    Fuelmountingbracket.jpeg
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  19. #1855
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    80280 - EFI FUEL PICK-UP

    I think that's the one. What did you guys identify that part for from your POL?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  20. #1856
    Senior Member Hobby Racer's Avatar
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    Yeah, that does not come with kit any longer. The newer ones use all donor bits.
    MK3.1 Roadster completed 2011
    818R built with EZ36R H6 completed 2018

  21. #1857
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    What parts are used? Ideally with part #. Maybe I can find them and use those, assuming the hole on the new tank is the same as the one on the old tank and that the way the parts are secured in place is the same.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  22. #1858
    Senior Member Hobby Racer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    What parts are used? Ideally with part #. Maybe I can find them and use those, assuming the hole on the new tank is the same as the one on the old tank and that the way the parts are secured in place is the same.
    371494942110.png

    Main fuel pump
    Screenshot from 2019-08-09 18-47-43.png

    Sub unit (only needed to run the factory fuel gauge in the dash).
    Screenshot from 2019-08-09 18-47-13.png
    MK3.1 Roadster completed 2011
    818R built with EZ36R H6 completed 2018

  23. #1859
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    So the tank hole where the pump drops into is an oval shape?

    Anyway got a picture of the fuel tank with that pump hole?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  24. #1860
    Senior Member Hobby Racer's Avatar
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    Yes the oval is the fuel pump unit. Here are some pics from the newer manual.

    tank1.png tank2.png
    MK3.1 Roadster completed 2011
    818R built with EZ36R H6 completed 2018

  25. #1861
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Thanks HobbyR! Definitely incompatible with the older style.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  26. #1862
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I fixed it!
    What a rubbish solution to a rubbish design.

    What happened is that the gold pin which connects to the connector plug outside the tank and from your harness (the female plug from the harness connecting to the male FFR pick-up unit plug), that gold pin (male) dropped which made it disconnect from its ring terminal on the other end. Hard to explain. I think it dropped cuz the plastic melted around it. I have no idea why the plastic melted!! But when I looked at the height of both pins in the connector, the ground one was lower.

    If I check resistance between the gold pin at the top outside the tank and its base inside the tank, I get almost 0 resistance. This means the pin in itself is fine.
    If I check resistance between that gold pin's base inside the tank and its ring terminal surrounding it inside the tank, I get FULL resistance! WTF? The eye cannot see that the gold pin is not connected to the ring terminal, it's not touching but you can't see it, they are not crimped together anymore but you can't see it.

    What I did is I took a pair of pliers and pulled on the gold pin from the outside. WTF it fixed it!
    Then I soldered the base with its ring terminal.

    2019-08-09 21.39.06.jpg

    Who said I couldn't find great solutions after a big glass of wine + northern Quebec herbal gin + western Canada Whiskey?

    Though, this problem is mind-boggling, this tiny thing failing as such.

    How long will this last? I don't know. All I know is I am NOT buying a replacement. It may fail again.

    Long term solution I will drill holes in the round plate and pass through wires, sealing the cracks around, and connect them on the wires outside, bypassing the connector entirely.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  27. #1863

    Yes, I love Technology
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    I fixed it!
    Then I soldered the base with its ring terminal.
    Frank - two things - my wife said to tell you you have the patience of a saint, wading through issue after issue and keep coming back. Kudos from both of us there - don't quit trying.

    Much as I hate to say it, the solder doesn't look very good - I would not trust it, unless the picture is misleading. Either work out your bypass wire you mention or get some liquid solder flux (electrical rosin type, not acid flux) and re-do it so it is good smooth, clean "flowed" solder. I'd be glad to send you the flux but I doubt you want to wait that long.... It really looks like you just needed more heat from a bigger solder iron to get the flow to happen quickly and across the part. Solder guns (if that is what you used) generally do not supply enough heat to get in and out quickly and get good solder flow on larger parts. Butane powered irons sometimes can be run hot enough, otherwise a larger solder iron can do this size of work better.
    Art Quillen

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  29. #1864

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    PM sent -
    Art Quillen

  30. #1865
    Senior Member DSR-3's Avatar
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    Good job finding that one. Your car should be gremlin free soon!
    'Fully agree with Art- don't chance that solder fix. Do it right and have confidence in the good solution. The fuel system is no place for shortcuts.

    Back to the oiling issue; Yes, you need to pull the plugs. You will get higher RPM and oil pressure when it's right. Again, I would not light it until you get ~40PSI cranking w/o plugs. Just don't cook the starter, cycle it. Yes, check those lines to the cooler and filter, and consider bypassing the cooler to start. Order oil? Are you using something special? Nothing wrong with sorting these things out with cheap oil (Amazon?) and changing it later.
    818S #332, EZ30R H6, California licensed 01/2019

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  32. #1866
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Art, thanks to you and your wife, really appreciated! I hardly realize that even though I can't drive, I am still doing impressive things.
    Also like you almost mentioned, so far I cannot remember one issue that I have fixed which occurred a 2nd time. This means if everything fails, I will fix everything and it will be bulletproof after that.

    Totally agree, it is true the solder is flimsy. However, way ahead of ya now (it's a good thing to be ahead of the Electrical Master). I tried more heat on the 12v red wire but it started to melt the plastic underneath, I could hear crispy noises. It didn't matter much to me cuz I had many other plans in mind. I soldered the 12v as well, though flimsy too, then I poured epoxy resin to bond everything, but the resin is too liquid and almost none was left on the gold pins' bases.
    Doesn't matter, next step I did something really cool, there is a 3rd tubing in that pick-up kit, which does nothing. It is opened in-tank and closed at the top of the round alu plate. I drilled a hole at the top and slid 2 wires inside the tubing and down to the pump connector.

    I then piggy-backed on the wires, secured with fuel resistant tape, put some fuel resistant Permatex sealant inside the tubing at the bottom (need to do a better job) and also at the top outside the tank. Next is I will use some JB Weld hard epoxy to seal even more those 2 holes each side of the tubing. At the top is the yellow connector from Subaru donor used for airbags. And finally I will use that JB Weld to bond the gold pins over my solders (solderings? This ain't the army here, no solders). Et voilà!

    I now have a failsafe wiring in case something goes wrong again with FFR's connector.

    2019-08-10 13.23.17.jpg2019-08-10 13.23.32.jpg2019-08-10 13.47.51.jpg2019-08-10 13.48.11.jpg


    Like DSR mentioned, no shortcuts for fueling stuff.

    Speaking of which, there really had an overheat in there! Not only the gold pin melted the plastic around as you can see in yesterday's pic, but it also melted the red plug a little bit. The gold pin collapsed a micro-millimeter down and it disconnected with its ring terminal.
    What caused this overheat? Loose connection? This plug clicks in pretty hard and solid in its connector, I cannot envision how the ground got loose. Anyway buying a new part from FFR won't help, I needed to make it better.

    2019-08-10 13.53.26.jpg



    DSR, about oil, when cranking without plugs for 8-10sec I get 7psi and can't go over it. WAY FAR from 40.
    I will buy new quarts of Amsoil break-in oil, that's the one I got now, special oil for break-in.

    https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...n-oil-(sae-30)

    The oil cooler is bypassed all the time until oil temps reach 80C. So far I think I've reached that once in the past 3 months, but not recently.
    Last edited by Frank818; 08-10-2019 at 05:31 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


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  34. #1867

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    Most likely the heat issue started at the crimped ring to the gold pin not being a solid connection. Best guess.

    Your wiring solution via the spare pipe is the sort of thing I would do too, nothing to pick at there.
    Last edited by aquillen; 08-10-2019 at 10:50 PM.
    Art Quillen

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  36. #1868
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    I once had an oil filter(Fram) that wouldn’t pass oil. I’d check that too, as stupid as it sounds. Once-in-a-lifetime....so far.

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  38. #1869
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lance corsi View Post
    I once had an oil filter(Fram) that wouldn’t pass oil. I’d check that too, as stupid as it sounds. Once-in-a-lifetime....so far.
    Lance, I love you too!

    Although the filter in ITSELF is not the issue as I changed it while I put my cams in the right way and nothing changed for the pressure, the filter TYPE I am newly using since the engine rebuild may well likely be the issue!

    I always used standard BOSCH 3510 filters. I now changed to the D3510 99.9% dirt filtering Bosch filter, cuz I wanted to trap more metal parts from the engine break-in. I bought quite a few of them, not just one or 2!


    HOWEVER, my oil filter housing works this way:

    Our oil filter housing has two clean oil ports (1/8”ntp). To feed your turbo with fresh filtered oil and get proper oil pressure sample after the oil filter. The OEM oil filter housing has three ports for sensors on top. All of these ports are unfiltered oil from pan and are before the filter.


    This means the oil passes through the now restrictive filter before it hits the pressure sensors! If the filter traps oil and restrictis it, then less is available for sensors and pressure drops! Simple.
    The housing also has an anti-drainback valve to keep the filter filled at all times but that has nothing to do here.

    I will revert back to OEM specs filter and try that out hopefully tonight or tomorrow night. Damn I can't wait! But I have to.
    Last edited by Frank818; 08-11-2019 at 07:28 AM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


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  40. #1870
    Senior Member DSR-3's Avatar
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    Is there any chance that you have the filter I/O plumbed backwards? No filter should have that much pressure drop across it, and not 1 vs another. You mentioned what sounds like a thermostat/diverter in the oil system- even though it should bypass the cooler I would consider bypassing it too. Keep at it, try to get oil in every part of the system "manually", and if you can, fill the filter before installing it. I've had dry-sump systems that were a ***** to bleed, and my water system was hard to bleed on this car for no obvious reason. Maybe consider connecting a line to one of the ports on the filter and cranking to see flow and maybe burp air.
    818S #332, EZ30R H6, California licensed 01/2019

  41. #1871
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Boo-hoo! It's not the filter. But I still love you, Lance!

    It's not coolant or other chemical in the oil. See way below for explanation.


    This is my filter housing, same since 2011. The oil sensor port is the gold spot bottom left. Feeds a black plug on the left and the brass cylindrical sensor bottom left. The silver spot top left feeds the turbo.

    Attachment 112222


    Quote Originally Posted by DSR-3 View Post
    Is there any chance that you have the filter I/O plumbed backwards?
    Not sure, I just screw the filter on the housing and that's it.

    As for my oil cooler setup. Well the cooler core is physically disconnected, I plugged the inlet line with the outlet line in order to bypass the cooler for the break-in period, since the inlet and outlet are on top I have to remove it to drain oil and during break-in with more metal in oil I didn't want to keep dirty oil in the cooler and recirculate it in the engine, so it's fully disconnected (the core).

    The sandwich setup is this one:

    Attachment 112223

    There's the OEM cooler (uses coolant circulation to cool oil) mates to the block, then in front the sandwich with black plug thermostat for the 80C re-routing to the cooler on the right side. In front of the sandwich is the cover cap. It is OEM cap with a longer stem cuz it bolts both the sandwich and the OEM cooler together, like when you guys shoot supersonic .50 caliber through . I cannot remove the sandwich, the stem will leave a long empty space and oil will pour on the ground. I don't think I still have the parts to make it shorter and use the cap as OEM on the OEM cooler only.



    Ok let's go back in time in the logs to see when this drop happened.
    Oh crap, the ECU wasn't logging oil pressure until the engine rebuild.

    AFTER ENGINE REBUILD
    - April 22nd 2019: 0.35bar @800rpm engine hot
    - April 22nd 2019: 4.7bar @1400rpm engine cold
    - August 2019: 0.35bar @800rpm engine hot
    - August 2019: 3.7bar @1400rpm engine cold but 10C warmer than in April, couldn't have the same engine temps in the summer

    So it has nothing to do with bent valve and head removal.

    BEFORE ENGINE REBUILD
    - September 2019: 1.9bar @800rpm engine hot
    - September 2019: 5.5bar @1400rpm engine cold like in August 2019

    It's since the rebuild. Still, could be the oil itself. Maybe it's so thin the VR6 pump doesn't like it much.

    What changed since the engine rebuild?
    - Oil pan has a completely different design
    - Oil pan was suggested to be installed using sealant like RVT type but my mech installed it with a gasket (makes the pan thicker)
    - Oil pan was already thicker on the edge cuz my mechanic couldn't re-use the OEM pan bolts and had to use longer ones. Not sure if without the gasket he could have re-used OEM bolts
    - Oil, using Amsoil SAE30 break-in oil for first time ever vs fully synthetic 5w-40 German Porsche oil
    - Injectors
    - Rods
    - Rod bearings
    - Crank bearings
    - Crank (but still a VR6 AAA one)
    - Crank pulley
    - Bigger valves
    - Head ports are not ported but were in my other head with smaller valves
    - Pistons (OEM vs JE forged alu)
    - Many gaskets
    That's it!

    Should I invest money in thicker natural oil just to give it a try?
    Either way it's gonna be a waste of money, cuz I want to break-in with the Amsoil break-in oil. So either way I will drain the test oil and put back Amsoil.
    What do I gain? Knowing if it's the oil or not. But since I will drive 1000 miles with the break-in oil, I will drain after anyway and then I could see if it's the oil or not.

    Should I re-install my older oil pan?


    Can JUST oil make a 22 to 27psi drop in pressure?
    Last edited by Frank818; 08-11-2019 at 07:35 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  42. #1872
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    Frank, if You have to pull your engine, two things to check are (1) your oil pickup. Check to make sure it hasn’t cracked and is bolted tight to the block and (2) the oil pump, which is a sandwiched together assy, held together with several flat head bolts. If those bolts aren’t tight, it would render the pump unable to prime, and it would severely reduce oil pressure. My friend who rebuilt my engine has seen these work loose, but on higher mileage engines. He always loctites those bolts to insure this isn’t a problem. The symptoms sound eerily similar to those you described.
    Anyway, I’m pulling for you to get this thing finished! I love you too!

  43. #1873
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Regarding oil, I found a few interesting things.


    First, this is the oil pan my previous vendor gave me:

    https://www.ecstuning.com/b-iabed-in...-103-vr6-tab~/

    After starring at the price for 10mins (I got this pan for... free), I read the description. Seems pretty interesting to prevent oil starvation but one spec I don't understand:

    • Sits Approx 25mm closer to the pan rail compared to MK4 R32 and MK3 12V VR6 oil pan.
    What's a pan rail?

    I don't think the pan is my issue.



    Second, I found on other forums that I am not the only one with a fully newly rebuilt motor and instant low oil pressure. Happened to a couple of others, which probably rules out the possibility that all of us in that situation (newly rebuilt) reinstalled incorrectly the pump tube or other parts in there. Of course, there is no true conclusion or epilogue to their stories, but one guy said something that may generate a great discussion here:

    Flow is KEY, not pressure.

    The problem is, flow is MUCH harder to measure then pressure, same reason we use simple Boost gauges to measure inlet pressure to estimate inlet flow rate instead of using a MAF and displaying the exact quantity of air being ingested.

    Same goes for oil pressure as with FI. More pressure isn't always better, it just means more restriction, which equals more work, which equals heat. Just as with FI again, you hit a point of diminishing returns, which on 99% of engines is 10PSI per 1000rpm of oil pressure. Above this is excess and just saps power and reduces engine protection.
    The OP has similar pressures as I do, maybe a bit higher at idle than I do.
    It seems as long as flow is fine and pressures are within specs, there is nothing to worry about. No one said why a rebuilt motor would drop pressures like this, but maybe it has something to do with less restrictions after the rebuild. Which may not be bad as long as flow is good enough.

    It also seems the oil itself may play a role sometimes, the VR6 may prefer some oils over others, but probably not in the magnitude of 20psi delta.

    Another guy has yet similar pressures as I do as various RPMs and he checked tolerances for his pump and pickup tube, all fine, pump not clogged as well.

    It also seems a new pump does not change anything for those guys.

    I think what I'll do is I'll remove the pan, check if everything is installed properly, check for debris in pump pickup and check everywhere if I see something strange. If all looks fine, I'll put the pan back and add new break-in oil that I have ordered today. However pressures are within specs and I really want to do my break-in asap, so I may keep that as is, pour new break-in oil in and run as long as I don't get less than 4.4psi, if it ever drops down there, which it never did so far.
    Last edited by Frank818; 08-12-2019 at 11:51 AM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


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  45. #1874
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Ha, that's weird. My electrical fuel pump bypass didn't work.

    When I try only the bypass the pump was super faint and didn't pump anything.
    When I plug in both the bypass and normal FFR connector OR just the normal FFR connector, my 15amp fuse blows up in a split of a second.

    Not sure what's wrong, I checked many times all the resistance along the wires and I get 12v on both connectors.

    I start to wonder if the pump might have seized or something?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  46. #1875

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    Sure sounds like you crossed the wires - mixed + with - in there.
    Art Quillen

  47. #1876
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Right on, Art. That's exactly what happened. However I cannot find where it's crossing. Maybe something went wrong inside the tubing or at the base of the gold pins where I have epoxy resin and marine epoxy on top.

    I have received today, free of charge, a replacement mounting kit from FFR. I'll start all over, drill my hole, pass through some other wires, cuz I can't remove the current one I added due to the epoxy, and I'll see the result.

    The pump works fine.
    Funny cuz this is the 1st electrical important mistake I've done on the car and I've built all of the wires, I didn't reuse the subaru harness. I'm probably getting tired.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  48. #1877
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I think my name should be "The Fixer". I'm not The Eraser, just The Fixer.


    Fixed the fuel connector issue, however to make it simple I started all over and used the free FFR replacement I got. And I slightly upgraded it by using my marine epoxy which will prevent both pins from collapsing down and disconnecting with their respective ring terminal. Should an overheat situation happen again...

    2019-08-15 15.37.53.jpg2019-08-16 07.08.22.jpg


    Turned ECU on and I get 60psi every time.
    That issue should be part of the past, now.


    ----

    So back on that weird low oil pressure. Well after a lot of googling I found out this happened to quite a few other VR6 guys after a fresh rebuilt. And I ended up on a huge american V8 muscle forum (story doesn't tell which is huge, the V8 of the forum) and guess what, there are a ton of threads of people freaking out like me cuz they have a low oil pressure RIGHT after a fresh complete rebuilt.

    Some of them actually did a mistake during the rebuild. But for others the story doesn't have a clear ending. However many, many guys married to V8 muscle engines for their entire life were stating the following:

    - At least "some" pressure at 700-1000rpm idle (5psi is not to worry about)
    - Rule of thumb 10psi increase per 1000rpm
    - Pressure is not the true measurement for oil, oil flow is, but no one has got the gauge for this so every one reverts back to pressure
    - High pressure could be caused by restriction which restricts the flow so you can actually have issues even though you have a nice acceptable high pressure that you're happy with the number
    - No drop of pressure at moments it should be either stable or increase
    - Consistency... stability... reproducibility. If you can get those 3 and you respect the above statements and you are within specs, then you should NOT worry about low oil pressure.

    Turns out I respect all the above.
    - I am within OEM specs (OEM does NOT specify anything at idle)
    - I get about or more than 10psi increase per 1000rpm
    - Every oil measurement I take if I were to scatter the plots on a graph I would always get the same readings (give or take only a few psis). Pressure varies with water temp and rpm. Pick one of each, I'll tell you the psi. Next day I'll do it again and I'll get the same psi. Consistency all across the board, this usually rules out blockage or not tightened parts in the circuit cuz usually blockage/not tightened parts move or vibrate which makes the pressure vary from time to time.



    I wanted to remove the oil pan. However there are a couple of bolts for which I don't have the tool (yet), the engine mount 1.5" tubing is blocking some of the way and I find myself at an angle which may round off the bolts' heads so I didn't take the chance.

    2019-08-17 09.07.27.jpg2019-08-17 09.07.39.jpg


    I changed the oil, there was powdered metal on the magnetic oil drain plug and more on the rag, but that's normal for breaking in an engine. No very small, small, medium or big chunk of metal, just super very small powder.
    I drained a lot of oil!

    2019-08-17 10.02.04.jpg2019-08-19 08.38.53.jpg2019-08-19 08.38.57.jpg2019-08-19 08.50.12.jpg


    I put back 7 quarts including the filter, excluding the oil cooler. About right as the pan takes 1 quart more than OEM.


    Cranked the engine dry without plugs in the following sequence:

    - 4 times 10sec each with 60sec rest in between
    - 2 times 30sec each with 60sec rest in between

    Charged the battery to make sure. Fired it up, within 2sec pressure rose and half a second later it was at a steady 60psi, 1400rpm (or 1300?) and 25C (77F for those down south).
    I let it drop to 34psi at 58C (136F) at 900-1000rpm and shut off the engine, cuz I was in my garage not ready for a drive.

    Engine felt and sounded very good and stable.
    Tomorrow I'll give it another try on the road.


    Like I said, I am The Fixer, but not The Driver, as I fix things but I don't drive. loll
    Last edited by Frank818; 08-19-2019 at 06:10 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  49. #1878

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    I say crank up BTO's "Roll On Down the Highway" when you pull out. Assuming a Québécois Frenchy is allowed to listen to Manitoban les Anglais music, that ought to do it.
    Last edited by aquillen; 08-19-2019 at 08:06 PM.
    Art Quillen

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  51. #1879
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    I say crank up BTO's "Roll On Down the Highway" when you pull out. Assuming a Québécois Frenchy is allowed to listen to Manitoban les Anglais music, that ought to do it.
    You know about Manitoban music? lolll Despite what Trump says, QC people are allowed to do whatever they want. lolll

    So yeah, I'll "Let It Ride". For 15mins I guess...
    Just one thing: I don't have a sound system in the 818, but my phone could do it.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Not driven yet! Work time before driving, over 4750h and still counting


  52. #1880
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    I don't know about your whack-o European engine, but in a Detroit V8 low oil pressure after rebuild is usually caused by slightly looser tolerances on the main bearings. This is good for power, as it allows for freer rotation, at the cost of life expectancy. I imagine that means engine is good for 150K vs 200K, which probably doesn't matter on a car like this.

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