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Thread: Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

  1. #1921
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I thought so there was a catch about a pull and push fan on the same setup, even though they would be on each other side of the rad/HE. That's probably we don't really see that kind of setup!


    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    top block plate over the radiator under the hood.
    Isn't the hood blocking? I have 2 huge louvers in the hood to help air escape, would be counter-intuitive to me to block them off. Though I agree a lot of air does come out between the hood and windscreen.

    The fact I don't use a shroud might also be a reason for hot idle.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  2. #1922
    Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    No shroud is a big issue .

  3. #1923
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    I thought so there was a catch about a pull and push fan on the same setup, even though they would be on each other side of the rad/HE. That's probably we don't really see that kind of setup!



    Isn't the hood blocking? I have 2 huge louvers in the hood to help air escape, would be counter-intuitive to me to block them off. Though I agree a lot of air does come out between the hood and windscreen.

    The fact I don't use a shroud might also be a reason for hot idle.
    He's talking about the space over the radiator, between it and the hood a very small space a little over an inch in the middle that tapers down toward the sides. Check out i think it's AZPete's thread where he posted this mod.
    The shroud does make the fans much more efficient in directing the air the fans pull thru the radiator.

  4. #1924
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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  5. #1925
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Ah yeah I see....

    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...4&d=1542168074

    Pete's thread still very useful.


    So a shroud, possibly used in conjunction with Pete's rad panel, would be more efficient on my one fan than swapping to a dual-fan twice the CFM setup?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  6. #1926

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Ah yeah I see....

    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...4&d=1542168074

    Pete's thread still very useful.


    So a shroud, possibly used in conjunction with Pete's rad panel, would be more efficient on my one fan than swapping to a dual-fan twice the CFM setup?
    It might. Because - a running fan creates a low pressure in front of the radiator and high pressure behind the fan. When there is a path for air to easily go between these areas, it will gladly move through that path, hence less cooling. Adding more fans / CFM would be more of the brute force solution, but I'd suggest you go that route only after ensuring air intake is as much "fresh" air as possible, i.e., close up any significant recirculation routes. That may also be a hassle to construct (I'm on the verge of that step myself) but is the more elegant/efficient solution attempt.

    Three years back, digging around in the Suby forums I recall some engine swap projects from 4 to 6 cyl. Interested in those since I've put in the H6. Guys who tried to get by with a smaller fan setup (because their chassis space was so tight) had cooling issues and had to figure out getting the H6 radiator/fan in there. The fans and rad for the H6 appears to be bigger not only in capability but the ECM has more control over the fan motors which have additional windings. I think you're in that same sort of heat load situation with your engine.
    Last edited by aquillen; 09-11-2019 at 10:22 AM.
    Art Quillen

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  8. #1927
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Tnx Art, Jet and Flyn, yeah I think all the info I have now add up to the same thing.

    Saw your draw for OEM fans Art, was expecting OEM fans to be not efficient (12-15amp each) but actually no they're great. I'll see if I can find an H6 shroud/fans assembly or universal dual-12in with shroud or build by own single-14in shroud. Winter project, though.

    What I found out is rule of thumb the following:

    - 4cyl: 1250CFM
    - 6cyl: 2000CFM
    - 8cyl: Can't recall, 2800+ I think, but no one has got an 8cyl in the 818 yet.


    Even if I have a good shroud for my single fan, it's only 1400CFM. I doubt it's enough. I thought with something like 20-litres of coolant it would cool more the engine but the amount of coolant does not change much on cooling efficiency, it's a matter of how well the heat is extracted from the coolant.

    I think I'll change my current solution and get a dual-12in with shroud assembly, pulling 2800CFM. I don't want to spend time building a shroud for my fan and end up finding it's still not enough. Time is way more important than money to me. Up to a certain extent.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  9. #1928
    Senior Member DSR-3's Avatar
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    I found some cast-off stock WRX fans on Craigslist for next to nothing from someone who just had to have some fancy Mishi (or knock-off?) parts. They only have 2 speeds, and I wired only the high speeds, but with independent control & setpoints. Working great so far for me.
    818S #332, EZ30R H6, California licensed 01/2019

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  11. #1929
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    TESTS #4 and 5

    Both failed.
    #4 was solidifying the rear louver on the deck lid, it was vibrating when I hit on it. No change while driving.
    #5 was backing off timing by as much as 8-deg! I thought the sound could be engine knock. Didn't change as well.

    One thing's for sure, the sound starts when the engine gets hotter and it gets louder until it reaches normal operating temps or a bit more.

    Oh well, I give up for now...
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  12. #1930
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Speaking of giving up, it's over for 2019.


    I have oil leaks everywhere.

    6 leaks overall. 3 coolant and 3 oil.

    My head gasket is leaking all around, I have puddle of oil on my water pump pulley! That is way not normal.
    I also have a puddle every time I run the engine on top of one spark plug. Check out the brownish puddle.

    IMG_20190912_104837.jpg

    I think it's not coming from inside the piston as it seems dry there, but when I take the plug off all the oil wraps around the threads, hard to tell, the tip seems ok so I think it's coming from the valve cover.
    Cuz my valve cover is leaking all around as well, even though I put some sealant.

    I really don't understand what's going on. I have minimal oil pressure, it's certainly not that causing all the leaking!

    The engine does not run very well, now, my fuel is wrong and I didn't change it. When I start the engine it gets very lean for no reason, a simple tap on the gas say 10% for a QUARTER of a second and then fuel gets back to normal. Absolutely no explanation. Same for idle. It now idles with 10-12% too much fuel but I didn't change anything.
    When I look at my log files and I compare sensor readings, I found spots where ALL of the readings are the same between last week when engine was fine vs since last w-e when it's not and fuel at idle is way too rich. No explanation possible. My guess is I have a bit of oil in the cylinders and that throws off fueling. That's what happened when I needed to rebuild the engine.

    Such a puzzle.

    Anyway since the head gasket is leaking I need to get the head off, will buy a new gasket and start all over. Then I'll see if it fixes how bad the engine runs.
    Therefore there's no way I can make it before it gets too cold, unless I take 2 weeks off and I can't do that.

    Won't crank that engine again until next Spring, god damn it.


    2019 driving stats: drove 33.3km in 4 months. 1466.7km short of my goal.
    Last edited by Frank818; 09-12-2019 at 11:20 AM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  13. #1931
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear that Frank, I was rooting for you. Did you check flatness on your head and block surfaces when you assembled the engine? Even if a machine shop decks those, it's always a good idea to inspect their work.

  14. #1932
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    My mechanic did check the flatness this Spring and it was running superb until I bent a valve. Since then it's downhill.

    When I reinstalled the head he checked again for flatness, but not on the block cuz it was here at home.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  15. #1933
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Definitely worthwhile checking the flatness on the block as well.
    https://www.jegs.com/i/OEMTOOLS/693/25355/10002/-1

  16. #1934
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    True. My mech has that type of tool, will borrow.
    However I truly hope a cast iron engine block not running over 3000rpm (and 95% of the time at 800rpm) does not warp after only 30km.


    I'm pretty confident what happened is the following: like I said a few times before, I am a bad builder. Spoke with my mech earlier and he asked me how long it took to install and torque the head after I had put the red Permatex glue on the gasket. I said a good 90mins if not more. He said there's your problem, that glue dries out after 45mins and won't seal if it takes you too long.

    Damn, I went as fast as I could for a first time and I knew I was late on the install time, I was hoping it would be ok but seems not!
    Next time I need to be twice as fast when I reinstall and torque the head. If not, I have to remove it and start all over again.

    He also said since oil is slightly conductive and that I had a lot around one plug and a little around 2-3 others, this might have caused some electrical issues, causing firing issues. Maybe... we'll never know. But what I know is that my weird fueling issues started at the exact time I started to have oil around the plugs.

    He also strongly said that a valve cover leaking all around is totally non-sense! And that one I have absolutely no explanation possible for. Anyway it has to take off and will change the gasket for the 3rd time. I'll see next Spring!

    Now I have to check on my coolant clamps which are the worst quality possible, stupid worm clamps. And then I have to order a dual-fan setup for the rad. Plus a fuel pressure sensor replacement.

    I also chipped my blue wrap on top of the rear fender when installing the humps cover. That car has 33km and is wearing out like 100k km. What a total disappointment.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  17. #1935
    Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    Frank ...stop it...you're not a bad builder, you are a builder....I know many mechanics that will never tackle a job of this magnitude and here you are....working out a few setbacks in a project that nobody has done before.
    Chin up my friend..patience and perseverance will reward you with that unique ride you're looking for.

    Jet

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  19. #1936

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    Frank - Jet is on the money. You didn't get that car built without skills no matter what you say. We know better. And I know a lot of mechanics as well that only do exactly what they got trained to do, no gumption / skill to step out of their "safe zone". Wife says you get the international award for perseverance and we're rooting for you man. Stick it out.

    I didn't look at the valve cover pics - if you did post any. When you have those covers off, verify nothing bent on mating surfaces. Especially stamped metal ones get out of "flat" easily.

    I've always worried about getting the sealant squished within the working time too - ever since about 1975 when my 69 vette 427 had head issues, manifold leaks and I had it off a couple times trying to fix that.

    BUT - I think if you get the cover in place and it is down even a little bit, the sealant dry time starts to get extended since it is no longer facing air all along the top of the sealant. Not to change your build instructions but I'd still consider using Permatex's "Right Stuff" for that assembly. It too has a specific work time but is, I think, just about the highest performing sealant you can use for any cover install on engine, trans, diff. Haven't had a leak on anything I've used it on so far. <edit - oops - headgasket? stay with factory spec >

    Clamps. You look at my build - lots of hose and pipe interfaces, what with two hot lines out of the engine to the radiator, etc. I put all that together with these - Breeze Constant Torque Clamps. Read about them (advertising is always nothing but claims until verified) and from my experience they do what they say. Ran that motor to full temp several times, even though I've not driven it. Not a leak anywhere to date. Look for them on eBay if you can buy there. Price all over the place but some places very decent. It's true I put some OEM clamps in here and there, but that was after my run tests, and for looks - I don't like appearance of screw clamps but that's just an attitude I have.

    AND - I have a number of left overs in I think 3 sizes, you want to send me sizes you need I'll look for, whatever I have is yours if you can use them.

    Oh and another thing, the plugs could indeed be misfiring if they have oil up into the boots wetting surfaces all the way to the conductor wires. I think way back I saw a picture of the motor with a distributor, so you are not coil on plug. So, HV wire to plug boots should be very clean, very snug fitting to the plug insulator and good integrity where the boot mates to the wire insulation. Clean the insides and outsides of the boots with Q-tips and denatured alcohol (not 90% isopropyl - has water). If the boots slide easily off the wire insulation then get that interface cleaned up too. Clean the plug insulators as well. If your boots are not fitting snug to keep oil, moisture, etc., from working in there, you could either replace them or pack the insides with Super Lube brand Translucent White Silicone Di-Electric Grease Tube (look in electrical supplies at hardware/box stores). A similar silicone grease is used in 150KV cable connector seals for x-ray equipement and so on. Silicone only, not some other kind of grease.
    Last edited by aquillen; 09-13-2019 at 04:18 PM.
    Art Quillen

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  21. #1937
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    Hang in there Frank!

  22. #1938
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    For a couple hundred bucks you can pick up a spare motor so you can always have one in the car and one on the stand.

    https://allusedparts.com/volkswagen/...8aAsGaEALw_wcB

  23. #1939
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Jet you are right, I know you are and I thank you for reminding me.


    Art, where's that Vette, now? Worth a million bucks, tell me you still got it.
    True, I am not coil on plug, nor distributor. I am coilpack, the in-between technology.
    I have found constant torque clamps yes, before reading your post. I'm not worried about coolant leaks due to clamps, that is SO easy to fix, yes.
    The inside of the boots look fine, including the rubber part that surrounds the plug. I do have di-electric grease that I usually use inside the boots, but I didn't in the past 2 years. Negligence, although it may not have change anything here.
    Here's a few pix of the valve cover leaks, it leaked over the gasket and under the gasket, even though under I did put Right Stuff. Something's really wrong here. All around the gasket there is oil, but leaks are all around except over the timing chain cover.

    2019-09-14 11.54.25.jpg2019-09-14 11.54.47.jpg2019-09-14 11.55.03.jpg2019-09-14 12.03.52.jpg2019-09-14 12.03.59.jpg2019-09-14 12.04.05.jpg2019-09-14 12.04.10.jpg2019-09-14 12.19.12.jpg



    Ajz, the idea is good. The implementation is harder than it sounds. loll I need space to store, I can always find temp space, but permanent is harder. Also I need exact same engine, ODB1, same sensors, wiring, hoses, etc., otherwise I have to change all that stuff and it becomes a build inside the build. I guess I'd need to swap the manifolds too and possibly the head and all internals, otherwise all my tuning in my ECU will be totally different. But finding a similar engine is possible, with totally different ECU tuning.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  24. #1940
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    Couple things to verify:

    •Are you positive that you properly torqued the valve cover down? Tough to tell, but in img 11.55.03 it appears that the gasket is squished in the upper left corner of the image but there is a gap around the corner of the valve cover between the cover and the gasket. The remains of sealant in img 12.19.12 also seems to show uneven compression. Also dependent on what the gasket pulled up.

    •Have you verified the valve cover sealing surface is flat and not warped?

    •Is the gasket OEM or aftermarket? Idk how many times I've been burned by non-OEM gaskets, seals, etc.

    As for valve cover leaks everywhere, that's a standard frustration with sealing sbc valve covers and intakes (front and rear especially). Once you discover the right combination of gasket manufacturer and procedure, do not ever change.

  25. #1941
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by codename Bil Doe View Post
    •Are you positive that you properly torqued the valve cover down?
    As far as the specs data I had, yes I am sure. Those nuts are supposed to torque at 7lbs, which I did, even in an X sequence which not really required. When I saw it leaking, I overtorqued to 8-9lbs about 4-5 nuts, didn't change anything not even around those overtorqued.


    Quote Originally Posted by codename Bil Doe View Post
    •Have you verified the valve cover sealing surface is flat and not warped?
    That is my next step.


    Quote Originally Posted by codename Bil Doe View Post
    •Is the gasket OEM or aftermarket? Idk how many times I've been burned by non-OEM gaskets, seals, etc.
    OEM replacement, it was made by Victor Reinz, a huge replacement provider of OEM parts or even direct provider of OEM at the manufacture.
    This time I ordered one made by Elring, which is the same type of provider as Victor Reinz, they both make a lot of the gaskets (and other parts) the VR6 needs.
    There is no true VW gasket (sold under the name VW) anymore for this one, not that I could see.


    I could order a beautiful T6 billet cover at a ridiculous price of NINE HUNDRED bucks http://vr6parts.com/onlinestore/inde...lve-cover.html
    But I have no guarantee it won't leak.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  26. #1942
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Hum, pic 11.55.03 is interesting, can't recall if I took it before I untorqued the bolts or not, I think yes. Is it just picture lighting but there seems to be a gap between the cover and gasket. Will definately put more attention on the warping validation.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  27. #1943
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I have switched myself into fixing/upgrade mode.

    Therefore I also worked on my cooling issue. With the help of a few of you regarding OEM Subaru fan assembly I was able to gather enough data to point me into one direction. Since my rad is not OEM and the anchor points of OEM assemblies don't fit with my rad, I searched for something different.

    I wanted to minimize time on this fix and maximize results. I found a guy on ebay, he's American! He is building me a CUSTOM shroud and will fit 2-12" 1400CFM each fans.


    $_57.jpg$_57.jpg

    I sent him the ebay listing of my rad, thank god it was still there 5 years later! And I also did precise measurements for him.
    I will be able to bolt that shroud on the rivnuts at the top and bottom of the rad. It will cover the entire core.
    I could have gone with 1 standard fan and 1 heavy duty 2000CFM fan, but the standard fan draws 10amps each and the heavy 15amps. I am limited at 25amps unless I remove the water tank and build a relay which I didn't want to do.

    2800CFM total should be enough to cool down a 5.0-litre American V8 and since I am not racing, I believe that's gonna be enough, providing I make sure fresh air constantly flows through the rad.
    I was so naive to think one 14" 1800CFM fan without a shroud would cool the engine down. It's not even sufficient for a V6 and I guess that Chinese fan does not blow 1800CFM as advertised.


    This fix should be easy to perform and will save me time to fix the head gasket/valve cover leaks. That's my goal.
    Last edited by Frank818; 09-15-2019 at 05:48 AM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  28. #1944
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Ha! I used a square, which is usually fairly straight, to check the valve cover. It seems it has warped! It's waved and exactly where I was expecting it, at least for 1-2 spot checks. I turned the square around to check on one of its other edge and I get the same result.

    Either I don't measure right, or the cover has warped.

    How the hell can that happen, been proven reliable for 27 years. Could it have endured a lot of stress during those moments the engine was jerking super hard which caused the cam bolt to loosen, fall off and bend the valve?

    I think I should take any chance and get the cover decked.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  29. #1945

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    When baby 2 came along in 1978 wife said "my" Vette needs 2 kid seats. "I want a VW bug like I had in high school." Ouch - 427 Vette -> 68 Beatle. God what a come down. But then I had gone from a '71 850 Fiat Spyder to the Vette, so been both directions. Looking back, I keep my cars in good condition so the Stingray would have had some value today. We called it the "log wagon" - it drove just like one, no power anything except the motor.

    Find a local granite countertop business. Go bum a piece of scrap stone from them, most throw stuff away bigger than you can carry. It will be heavy, FYI. If you are worried it might not be flat, don't - or take your best straight edge and see for yourself. Doublestick tape or spray glue some 220 grit sandpaper sheets on the stone. Hone down your warped item (anything you need to flatten) on this. If you want to get fancy run finer paper on it until you are happy. Keep it around for other similar jobs. I use mine every so often for something. Heck. if it came to it I'd even flatten a cylinder head that way - seen it done. You do have to think about and work with the stroke/pressure you use in order to not make a bigger problem but really that comes down to checking your work and using some sense as you go. But then I do stuff like resurface disc brake rotors on car with a belt sander too. I get out of the box pretty often (then they find me and put me back in).

    Once you are satisfied for sure you have a flat stone, you can also do things like smear lipstick on whatever, slide it on the stone and see what is not flat, etc. Or heck, blow 800$ on a granite flat from some machine shop supply house. It's only money.
    Last edited by aquillen; 09-15-2019 at 08:47 AM.
    Art Quillen

  30. #1946
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Stingray?? Ah man, those kids cost a lot of money! But as you said, "it's only money".

    Good idea with the countertop, my kitchen is full of it, worse case I'll do it there.
    I have a wood table in the garage, thick pressed wood, it's supposed to be very flat, I'll check that. If it is I'll permanently mount the stuff there as it is the table I work on for the car.
    The cover is aluminum so it should be very easy to sand down.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  31. #1947
    Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    Glass table or glass door/windows are sweet to check for a warped component

  32. #1948
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Valve cover is warped.

    I was able to lay it on my glass table and I could slip through a sheet of paper in some spots, also I could see the light of a flashlight a lot more in those same spots.

    My problem is this:

    2019-09-15 15.38.43.jpg

    Impossible to lay the cover entirely on anything. So I'll call my mech tomorrow and ask him who can deck this thing.


    My parents moved on Aug 22nd so I never was able to go to their home, in which I grew, with the 818.
    And now where they are many people have awesome cars. AMGs, SLSs, special Aston Martins, 911 Carrera 4 GTS Targa, Ferraris and these 2:

    2019-09-15 09.10.54.jpg2019-09-15 09.11.02.jpg2019-09-15 09.11.12.jpg2019-09-15 09.11.22.jpg2019-09-15 09.11.27.jpg2019-09-15 09.11.34.jpg

    911 GT3 RS and 488................ PISTA! Let me say that again PISTA!
    Never thought I'd see a Pista here in QC, this is probably the most fun track oriented road car.
    Damn I envy that guy so much, I'm so frustrated not to have that money. And so frustrated I couldn't show him the 818! I'm better than this guy cuz I built my own car capable of a better power to weight ratio than his, if I can make it work... He also has another Ferrari and 911 GTS Targa + more for the wife.


    Not that important but like I said many times when I remove something I try to make it or something else better. This time I decided to remove my WG at the manifold. It's been bolted onto since 2006! I wanted to change the gasket, just in case. Well it turns out the bolts were loose, which probably explains some carbon I saw on the exterior of the WG. I ordered some more gaskets. I'm sure this thing would have failed at some point, wouldn't have been good to see that!
    Last edited by Frank818; 09-15-2019 at 07:34 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  33. #1949
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Spoke with my mech regarding the warped cover. He does not know anyone who can resurface it.

    It's a discontinued part so I don't have many options.


    1- I saw 4 screws inside the cover which seem to remove the venting block that prevents laying the cover flat. If it does I'll resurface it myself with your ideas. I must not fail if I do that.
    2- If the venting block is not removable, I have found in Latvia a new cover for 120 US bucks. Only place in the world I could find one new. 4 left!
    3- Buy a T6 billet cover at the stupid cost of 875 bucks. Would need to re-do my venting hoses as the design is different.




    If decide to try #1 I won't know until next Spring if it works. Since #2 only has 4 left in stock, by Spring he may not have any left. Which means I'm risking a 875 bucks expense. That's a huge risk.


    So I think I may try to resurface and see if I can remove the head and put it back in within the next few weeks (rushing and making more mistakes maybe?) and crank that engine before it gets snowy. Race against time yet again, as it's always been on that project.


    That's the problem when you keep alive discontinued parts!


    I could also pay 120 bucks now for that cover, resurface mine and if it works then I have a new spare part for later.
    If I don't pay now and try to fix myself, I may never pay if successful or pay 875 bucks if resurfacing failed.
    If I pay now 120, I would have paid less for a replacement, but I may have paid for nothing if I don't need a replacement.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  34. #1950
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Another option is to have a local machine shop resurface it. It doesn't have to be an automotive machine shop, but any place with a mil should be able to give you a flat gasket surface. Or you can send it out if no one is available locally. I googled machine shop in Quebec and there were several results, although in French.

  35. #1951
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
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    Agreed, someone with a standard endmill should be able to take down the high points.

    you're so close! Next year is going to be the year of driving!

    GOOD LUCK!
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  36. #1952
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Interesting twist of plans!


    1st here's a pic of the cover after removing that venting block piece which allowed me to lay it completely flat on its entire length:

    2019-09-16 16.13.15.jpg

    Hard to take a pic, you may think there's an illusion caused by the area without powder coat but no in the middle of pic and going sideways, it's not touching at all the glass. It's like that in many places, this one being close to the worst.

    Then yes why looking for automotive shop when a simple generic machine shop could do it. I found one 30sec away from my mech's shop, will be going there tomorrow, I called and the guy said he should be able to do something, just bring in the sucker and we'll see what can be done.

    I worked on the car tonight, was about to flush coolant and then my brain exploded. Now that I've seen the areas where the cover is warped, what a weird coincidence that it's exactly in those areas the oil is leaking the most!

    What would be the odds that 1- the head gasket would leak almost at the same time as the valve cover + 2- the head gasket would leak while the valve cover leaks + 3- the pistons are bone dry and exhaust never got smoke out of it, meaning there is close to no chance of an internal oil leak, it would be 100% external.

    It took a while after I've seen the cover leaking around that it actually started to drop on the floor. Makes sense, if the cover is the ONLY source of leaking, then it took a while for the oil to build up and reach down below.

    All around the head, mostly in the areas where the cover leaks, it's greasy. Looking below I can follow the oil, which then reaches the gasket.

    At the exhaust manifold and over gearbox I have no leak at all on the block. The cover leaks much less or not at all there. But on the exhaust front corner, front pulley side and intake front corner, this is where the cover leaks the most and this is where I have bunch of oil leaking and this is where the cover is quite warped.

    What are the odds the head gasket would also have the same leaking pattern as the cover?

    I say close to none.

    I say the head gasket does not leak and I should put back everything I already removed (quite a lot loll), wait for a cover fix and crank that sucker up. I'm not risking anything except a bit of time, however I already accounted for the fact that I'm done for 2019.

    Am I really that smart (or just paranoid)? We'll see.
    Last edited by Frank818; 09-16-2019 at 07:07 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  37. #1953

    Yes, I love Technology
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    I'd do the very same thing you just described.
    Art Quillen

  38. #1954
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I made a mistake on the cover part #. The one I found in Latvia for new is actually the plastic version cover. This morning my mech told me to stay away from those cuz they tend to crack.

    Ok. Well then the machine shop told me it could cost few hundred bucks to fix my cover and there is no guarantee it will work. There are some challenges to do it right. For example there is a half moon on one side so when they resurface the flat edges, the half moon will not. Will then squash the gasket with more pressure in that area.

    Heating up the cover and pressing it down to give its shape back is another idea. However it may be very long to do with a portable propane torch and I could fail too.

    I have found some alu covers but they are all used. In Germany for the most of them. I ordered one, need the guy to come back with shipping costs, it's all in German I have to use google translate. Hope it's gonna work.

    Finding one in a scrap yard is possible, although I need to go there in person, look around, etc... takes time without knowing how long it's gonna take and if I'll find something.
    Will try some VW shops around, call them and ask if they have a cover.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  39. #1955
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    For how cheap the plastic ones are, if it works I would use it. If it cracks, it costs nothing to replace.

    More important to be on the road buttoning up stuff and enjoying the car. It's better to be driving a car with issues than to have a perfect car sitting in the garage.

    Besides, now that you see how the aluminum ones can also warp so severely, you should really avoid those, too, and not use a valve cover at all.

    Down the road when you want everything gold plated you can upgrade to a $900 replacement.

  40. #1956
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    I would get a quote at more than one machine shop. Also, a good shop will machine the half moon as well and provide a matched set with the valve cover. This will definitely run a few hundred bucks so that's not unexpected. Machine shop time is expensive. I would definitely avoid heating the cover, especially with a torch, as this will probably make the warping even worse unless you really know what you're doing.

  41. #1957
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    All this makes sense.


    The warping on the alu cover should only happen when you do the same mistake I did, which is partly untorque some of the bolts while engine still very hot. Usually no one removes the cover hot as no one starts removing cams while everything is hot! Alu covers will be more reliable over time and they are sold at the same price as plastic ones (also discontinued), which is why I'll try to get one in alu. Unless I find a plastic one locally, shipping an alu one will be the fastest I can get a cover.

    I'll continue looking in salvage/junk/scrap yards and on your website, Bill, just in case I find something cheap there!

    I am definitely looking into the fastest solution, still at an ok price. Machine shop is not my 1st choice now, as I need to look for another one, go there, explain, miss work on the fly, then pay 100s for something that may not really work if not done 100% perfect. I'd rather invest my time looking in junk yards, that's what I mean.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


  42. #1958
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    If you find one, message me. This is one of the few threads I come on to check.

    Try to aim for something closer to 95050 or 95127. If necessary I can make a road trip within the 100mi search range. Weekend field trip.

  43. #1959
    Senior Member metros's Avatar
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    I was wondering if the cover leak was so bad that it appeared to be leaking at the hg too. Start simple and work up to the more work intensive solutions.

    Sometimes it's better to be lucky than skilled.

  44. #1960
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    What a week searching.

    I nailed one cover! I was ordering some VR6 parts from my old place in PA and I decided to ask Bill (different Bill than the one here!) if by any chance he had a Corrado cover. He said yes!
    So while he's shipping me some neat parts I'll get to show and explain once I get them, the cover will be included in that shipping.

    Still no news from the German ebay guy I'm waiting on an invoice with shipping costs, so hopefully he won't make it within the 5 business days which will give me a reason to contact ebay and ask to cancel the sale without paying anything. Or so be it and I get a spare from him.

    However I am still looking in junk yards in case I find one cheaper than the German guy. Better have at least one spare anyway. Bill I contacted some of the places, got one reply asking questions and waiting on their reply. We'll see where it goes.

    If I'm lucky I'll get the cover by the end of next week. Should also get my shroud by then. If I'm even more lucky I'd be able to install the shroud for my next drive, but I must not take any chance by delaying as October is sometimes difficult to find warm enough weather, until the 15th I should be ok, past that date it's like flipping a coin.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R one-time dyno target 500whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed
    Driven 33km in 4 months. Work time over 5000h and still counting cuz broken again


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