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View Poll Results: Startup with new ID1050x or previous EV14s?

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  • Engine startup with new 1050cc injectors

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Thread: Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

  1. #1721

    Yes, I love Technology
    aquillen's Avatar
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    We're all hoping 2019 brings you a year of fun on the road - in your 818 of course. Wish we could help get those pistons to you. I'm sure I speak for anyone following your build.
    Art Quillen

  2. #1722
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Frank, I certainly admire your persistence and determination! I've learned a lot from your long, long build thread - and enjoyed your writing ability and humor. I'm raising a glass to your well-earned success in 2019.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

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  4. #1723
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmaker12 View Post
    A miller or Lincoln 115 can weld up to 1/8 with 0.24-0.30 with mixed gas, or up to 3/16 with flux core 0.30.
    I realize the welding stuff has been discussed to death here, but this is what I've learned. The numbers given by the welder manufacturers are all wrong. I have a 120V Lincoln welder and did some testing. With it cranked up all the way I could get a little better than 1/16" penetration. For those that don't believe this, please do a test yourself. Start with some fairly thick steel stock and butt the edges together; nice a flat edges, no beveling. Do a weld pass, cut through it and see what you get. A lot of the welders say they can do a certain thickness with multiple passes. That's really dumb to say that. I can do 12" thick steel with multiple passes with a huge bevel on the pieces to start with!

    Having said all that, I've welded engine mounts and other serious stuff with my welder using 3/16" stock. I just bevel it a lot and make multiple passes.

    Rick

  5. #1724
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFRWRX View Post
    I realize the welding stuff has been discussed to death here, but this is what I've learned. The numbers given by the welder manufacturers are all wrong. I have a 120V Lincoln welder and did some testing. With it cranked up all the way I could get a little better than 1/16" penetration. For those that don't believe this, please do a test yourself. Start with some fairly thick steel stock and butt the edges together; nice a flat edges, no beveling. Do a weld pass, cut through it and see what you get. A lot of the welders say they can do a certain thickness with multiple passes. That's really dumb to say that. I can do 12" thick steel with multiple passes with a huge bevel on the pieces to start with!

    Having said all that, I've welded engine mounts and other serious stuff with my welder using 3/16" stock. I just bevel it a lot and make multiple passes.
    True, I believe the numbers don't take everything into account or are based on some assumptions that did not apply 100% for me as well.
    The guy who welded engine mounts and seats mounts for me for Registration did use beveling on some cases, with multi-passes, in order to get something more solid.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  6. #1725
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    God I miss my Corrado...
    Listen to that sound @ 0:12 for about 30sec, just listen!

    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  7. #1726
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I GOT THEM!!!!!!!!!! Sort of!


    13 months after my 1st order and 11 months delay I finally got my pistons! Those are the real deal, right specs with nice ARP 625+ bolts.

    2019-01-07 11.07.50.jpg2019-01-07 11.07.58.jpg2019-01-07 11.08.05.jpg2019-01-07 11.11.31.jpg



    However there is an error in the order!! Of course, 11 months delay is too easy, that's too smooth. One missing part, I am missing 1 wrist pin. I don't think they will be installed before Jan 18th, but I need them today in order to balance the pistons and get the block picked up with pistons tomorrow.



    Let's hope they are very weight consistant and assume the one CNC will ship me back will have the same weight, not less. More is not a prob I can shave it off. I need the pistons to bore the block and the cyl in which they will fall (or "which they will fall in"?) will be determined by their balancing.


    For instance if I cannot get same weight on all 6, then the 2 heaviest or lightest pistons will be fitted in opposed cylinders (1 vs 6, say, according to my crank).


    This is why I need the missing pin... sucks! However pins tend to be very consistant so crossing fingers. Risk is small that the 6th pin would weigh less than the other 5.


    Other than that CNC Motorsports in SD does 2-day shipping across the border (that is a first) and they've done a WONDERFUL job on this order.



    But still, it had to go not smoothly after all the issues I had in the past 13 months... this tells me I will have problems in the upcoming months during the rebuild.


    Anyway now it's time to bring the block to the machinist and get it bored to 82mm. Couple of days later I should get it back and within 1-2 weeks the rebuild should restart. A lot of "should", but like I said there are no certainties in this thing until the car drives and is tuned properly. So still A LOT of work ahead but the most complicated is done: getting hands on the pistons (minus 1 pin), who would think that would be complicated...
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  8. Likes Mitch Wright liked this post
  9. #1727
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    BAD NEWS!

    Ok now it's obvious, there is a curse on my build...

    I called the guy to take appointment to bore my block... HE JUST SOLD HIS SHOP! He was prepping the machines to get them out the shop as I was calling. I mean what?

    He suggested me a rare place around, I called my friend who rebuilds my engine and he said don't go there! It's the worst possible place, many people had problems. And then I was about to cry, literally, I was in pieces, completely devasted... he heard and he said "Bring me the pistons, I will ask an old friend who used to bore blocks to restart his machine and do the job, I will beg him."

    So maybe... that will work. But I mean it's impossible all those issues for the past year. I still don't believe it.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  10. #1728
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    And I thought I had engine rebuild issues...wishing you the best of luck getting the car's drivetrain back together!

  11. #1729
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    Are you related to Retro? You seem to have the same luck DNA.
    "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
    eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
    818R ICSCC SPM and HPDE Rental at Oregon Raceway Park
    2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM, NASA ST3
    Palatov DP4 - ICSCC & SCCA Sports Racer and HPDE Rental at Oregon Raceway Park

  12. #1730

    Yes, I love Technology
    aquillen's Avatar
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    Rooting for you to keep at it. You've already shown the patience of a saint. Keep the faith.
    Art Quillen

  13. #1731
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsfourwheeler View Post
    And I thought I had engine rebuild issues...wishing you the best of luck getting the car's drivetrain back together!
    Out of curiosity, what issues you got?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator View Post
    Are you related to Retro? You seem to have the same luck DNA.
    I think we are related... our cars have a very similar blue color. And we keep having issues on top of each other and can't move fwd. I feel connected to him, yes, and hopefully we'll get an update on his new engine soon too.


    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    Rooting for you to keep at it. You've already shown the patience of a saint. Keep the faith.
    Thanks Art!



    My engine block will get bored by my mech's friend, he agreed on exception to do it. He's retired, got his personal little shop with a few CNC machines he's using for his... 15 cars!
    My missing wrist pin is being taken care of by CNC Motorports and Trend and hopefully by the end of the week it'd get shipped.
    Slowly, but moving.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  14. #1732
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Ok now it's true, there are real progress going on!
    - Wirst pin on its way, will get it tomorrow
    - Engine block at the machinist, working on it, no ETA (I'm used to no ETA anyway)


    My Trend Performance H13 wrist pins are not only a lot stronger than basics JE pins but they are over 10 grams lighter! That's a significant amount of weight shaved off where it matters. Not at low RPMs but at higher yes.

    For those who don't know, this engine is for street driving and very occasional w-e race alone or with a friend.
    However I did everything I could to achieve the following goals:


    • All internal parts are as frictionless as possible. Crank, crank bearings, rod bearings, piston skirts and pins (except I didn't go with the super expensive diamond-liked coated pins which are useful when drag racing or on some crazy diesel high pressure engines)
    • The minimal amount of engine vibrations. Fluidampr crank damper which adjusts to every RPM, frictionless parts, balanced parts like rods, pins and pistons
    • Combustion chamber heat control. Thermal crown ceramic coating on pistons allows a tremendous amount of heat dissipation, something like 200C less underneath the piston, which means that heat will be pushed out of the manifold, hopefully helping the turbo to scroll a tad faster and less lag and should allow for a few degrees more of timing due to the reduction of potential knocking


    This should allow the engine to run very smoothly and reduce wear over time, with the added HPs although the HP is not why I did this.


    I don't think I will hit 500whp with my current turbo. I have a GT3582R but its limitation is it has a 0.63 A/R on the turbine. On this engine it will full boost 30psi at 3000rpm but should start to fade out at 5500rpm.
    My goal is not 500whp, it is 500wtq! And that should allow it. Traction is a different story...


    Besides, around here you can't hardly exploit properly high RPMs on the street, so you're better off targetting for some serious torque in the low and mid-range even if you lose on top end. Big american V8s are great for that!
    Time will tell if I will go with 0.82 A/R which boosts 30psi at 3500rpm and keep it up to 7000-7500.

    EDIT: Running 7.6:1CR. Quite low.


    Last night I dreamt I had guessed my fuel map spot on for my new ID1050x injectors and that everything was running perfectly on the 1st startup. Yeah right... lolll
    Last edited by Frank818; 01-17-2019 at 07:48 AM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  15. #1733
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I need your opinion guys.
    I think people like polls so I created one.

    I've been debating this with myself for the past YEAR and couldn't decide, so I figured you might provide some arguments and opinions helping me decide.


    I'm trying to decide whether I should do my 1st startup on my rebuilt engine with or without my new injectors. Here are the PROs and CONs I can think of, this will allow you to understand why I can't decide:


    Startup with previous BOSCH EV14 550cc
    PROs
    - I have these injectors since 2011, I have set a nice fuel map and I know their configuration and how they react to variables
    - With these injectors I am not running too lean nor too rich anywhere in the map (before my engine mods!!)
    - Should allow an easy startup since the base map has been proven
    - Should allow getting the car on the road quickly to burn my 1500km break-in period SAFELY without playing all the time with fuel map or stalling the engine or what not

    CONs
    - Since my pistons are overbored, head has oversized valves and CR has dropped from 8.6:1 to 7.6:1, I'm expecting some fuel adjustments to do but I do not know to what extent
    - Will require removing the injectors and swapping to ID1050x after the break-in period; since I won't want to wait for the fuel to evaporate from the rail, I know it'll make a fuel mess while disconnecting the feed and pulling out the injectors, like it did in Nov 2017 when I had to remove the engine, many weeks after the last time the engine ran
    - Will need to start all over the fuel map once the new injectors are in, which means the work I'd have done on the 550cc map would be thrown out the window
    - Cannot drive the car safely nor on the dyno until I set a base map on the ID1050x, so after the break-in period I'll have to wait a certain amount of time before I can enjoy
    - No one knows what is the above "amount of time" required



    Startup with new ID1050x 1050cc
    PROs
    - No need to swap injectors after break-in period
    - I can really drive the car and go on the dyno immediately after break-in period
    - Will work on target state fuel map all the time, not on 2 fuel maps (one temporary for 550cc and one target state for 1050cc)
    - I have guessed a basic map already which I believe should allow me to fire up the engine and idle it ok as well as drive it without stalling the engine


    CONs
    - May require many crankings until it fires up, may stall right after first few startups, may damage something (?? not sure if that can happen?)
    - Will require a hell lot of multitasking and concentration, under sunlight on the computer screen so I see nothing, once I drive it for pre-break-in period cuz I'll have to constantly adjust fuel map on the road, as well as listening for the car like rear bumpsteer, noises, driveshafts issues, CV joints popping off or wearing out quickly (remember my shafts are angled as hell), etc. All this to make the car run safely for the break-in period
    - The above will require more time until I can start the break-in period
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  16. #1734
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    I need your opinion guys.
    I think people like polls so I created one.

    Startup with previous BOSCH EV14 550cc


    Startup with new ID1050x 1050cc
    Go with what you know works. There are so many other thing on the car that need to be sorted out. Making multiple changes at the same time often doesn't work out.

    Why are you changing injectors (6 cyl, 550cc, turbo, 90%dc, Gas) is good for 471 crank hp?

    I don't understand your fuel mess comment. Relieve the pressure first, a few shop rags, no big deal.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  17. #1735
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Go with what you know works. There are so many other thing on the car that need to be sorted out. Making multiple changes at the same time often doesn't work out.
    Yes that's why I asked, it's one more risk to add, but if done well it will save time overall at the end so I can enjoy the car the whole season (after a whole season lost which I'm very frustrated about).


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Why are you changing injectors (6 cyl, 550cc, turbo, 90%dc, Gas) is good for 471 crank hp?
    Should not support the amount of power I'm targeting now, which is 500 or close to, depending on my turbine. The newer ones are also apparently smoother on idle and transients, which is important for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    I don't understand your fuel mess comment. Relieve the pressure first, a few shop rags, no big deal.
    Bob
    Of course I can work something out, I had a mess last time would try to do better this time but I want to avoid another mess. Starting with new injectors I would not need to play with hardware changes. I fire up and I tune software, that's all. Using old injectors I'd fire up, tune software, swap hardware, re-tune software. But like you said, it's more steps but less risky.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  18. #1736

    Yes, I love Technology
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    Go with what you know is really the best advice. But, look at me, I started that JDM motor for the first time last week on the new, unproven carbon fiber intake, completely rebuilt wiring - almost scratch built you could say. So I'm not a good example of going with what is a known. Reading your pro's and con's, it seems to me I'd probably go with the new ones. Sometimes I have a hard time making a choice so I make a chart and assign values from 1 to 10 on each pro and con. Add them up and it tells me what to do.
    Art Quillen

  19. #1737
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Should not support the amount of power I'm targeting now, which is 500 or close to, depending on my turbine. The newer ones are also apparently smoother on idle and transients, which is important for me.
    Frank.
    First, I have to say I have never tune an engine. I have tuned many speed and position control equipment.
    If you want to tune for fine idle, I don't think you want huge injectors. On the big injectors a small change in PWM causes a large change in the amount of fuel. Better to use an injector that is just big enough for the application. That is what OEMs do.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  20. #1738
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    Sometimes I have a hard time making a choice so I make a chart and assign values from 1 to 10 on each pro and con. Add them up and it tells me what to do.
    That is a good idea. Will do.

    I wish I could remove the poll but I can't find the option! Oh well, it's gonna stick there until April...



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    First, I have to say I have never tune an engine. I have tuned many speed and position control equipment.
    Come again? You did everything, Bob, you know everything (90% of the time lol). With your massive experience you've never played with a stand alone ECU or tuning ignition and fuel map from scratch? I'm stunned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    If you want to tune for fine idle, I don't think you want huge injectors. On the big injectors a small change in PWM causes a large change in the amount of fuel. Better to use an injector that is just big enough for the application. That is what OEMs do.
    The ID1050x are a different technology. They are designed to optimize PW and smooth throttle inputs. The VR6 is hard to tune on transients (tip in, tip out) and sometimes require 50% fuel increase for 50-100ms, I am expecting the 1050x to make this easier. Also ID fully characterize their injectors and provide the data to tuners. Like the slope & offset vs pressure, which is important to dial in your ECU for every battery voltage change in order to keep constant characteristics. With the EV14s and Dekas I had previously, I could never be sure I got the real data, it seemed like priviledged information or there always was something missing or requiring a guess. I was not the only one with that problem. The EV14s had good data provided but it wasn't perfect, apparently ID provides accurate data easy to use.

    In a nutshell, if the injectors' characteristics are not precisely dialed in the ECU, some variables may affect the injectors' PW in situations where an automated compensation should have taken care of the change. When this is not right, it messes up fuel while it shouldn't. Something was not right with my EV14s I could see on the ECU logs. But that's not the only reason why I got ID1050x anyway.

    These days newer injectors are much better than older technology, the 1050x have been tested to have a better idle than my EV14s, there is a comparison of the 2 somewhere. Bigger doesn't mean you have to do a compromise on idle quality anymore.

    I do want to test those injectors and if I am not happy (didn't see anyone yet not happy) I will either revert back to EV14s and max them out or get different injectors 20% more powerful than EV14s.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  21. #1739
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Come again? You did everything, Bob, you know everything (90% of the time lol). With your massive experience you've never played with a stand alone ECU or tuning ignition and fuel map from scratch? I'm stunned.
    You forget. My main job was tuning ELECTRIC Cars, trucks, and motorcycles since 1994.
    http://lightningmotorcycle.com/lightning-strikes-twice/
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

  22. #1740
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    As much as I try to push what I can do all at the same time, I'd also suggest sticking with at least the injectors you know. Whether you're doing MAF or speed density, it rules out one big variable which will make your basic tuning a lot easier. Speed density with the same injectors will help you nail the VE tables quickly which I'm sure you already know.

    I'm doing the same on my WRX with bigger injectors and a new turbo, and with the Coupe build sticking with the 'old' engine tuning while also doing the AWD and then putting in the flat plane crank and new heads and cams.

    Just my 2 cents of useless thoughts
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  23. #1741
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    You forget. My main job was tuning ELECTRIC Cars, trucks, and motorcycles since 1994.
    http://lightningmotorcycle.com/lightning-strikes-twice/
    I never forgot about that blue/white fastest electric bike in the world, Bob. Just thought since you know so much about cars that you also had done a lot of fine ECU tuning. And I see you are making a cheaper version of that 39k world record bike?



    Quote Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
    As much as I try to push what I can do all at the same time, I'd also suggest sticking with at least the injectors you know. Whether you're doing MAF or speed density, it rules out one big variable which will make your basic tuning a lot easier. Speed density with the same injectors will help you nail the VE tables quickly which I'm sure you already know.
    I'm actually using MAP, DTA ECU does not support MAF sensors, only supports MAP or TPS+MAP tables.

    I'm calculating the values of each PRO and CON to see what comes up. If the gap is significant then so be it. If close, might stay on the safe side.


    I would not be so much on new grounds here, though. When I put in the turbo in 2006 everything was new, which is the worst situation. Then I changed injectors in 2011, even though only the injectors changed then, it was like everything changed cuz I didn't know those new injectors (EV14s) and had to re-map everything. Which is why I'm trying to determine in what way this would be different now, I've been through that situation twice in the past.


    However it's true that the more parts I know the better.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  24. #1742
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Thank you guys!

    I made it through. You made me found one more variable I didn't think about, or maybe modify one of the variable I had on my EV14s.

    I thought I knew the EV14s pretty good, but it turns out I don't know them that much! Because of the injector dead times. That compensation table (against voltage) is important to setup right in the DTA ECU. Since BOSCH does not publicise this table or one that can be easily worked with, I could only find information from 3rd parties and nothing tells me the data is right and for the same part number injector. I always questioned that. The ECU software has a tool to test injector dead time by switching 4 stroke to 2 stroke, but when the engine is running you cannot change the injector voltage, so it's virtually impossible to set up outside a bench. Obviously if my dead time is wrong at x volt but right at y volt, then it will mess fuel map when voltage changes, even 0.1 volt can make a difference if the numbers are too off from reality.

    Injector Dynamics is a smaller company and they make those injectors for the enthousiast tuner like me. They provide their own dead time table for every injector. I can't go wrong with that.


    Therefore I know I won't need to fight against dead time with these injectors. I only need to find the PW required for cranking and idling and for the rest it will be the same job as tuning with EV14s. Might be easier in best case with ID1050x if my EV14 dead times were too far off.


    I'm going in with the new injectors and I am very confident about the decision.


    Thanks!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  25. #1743
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Sounds like good logic to me. Since my assumption about the old injectors being fully scaled/tuned/etc. wasn't right, going with ones that provide the values right away is the way to go. Good luck, we're rooting for you!
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  26. #1744
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Frank, I've enjoyed your build thread for years. Your journey has been bumpy, curvy, frustrating, confusing, and longer than you expected, but it has also been a learning experience for you, and some of us. When I look back 44 pages ago I am very impressed at how much you've learned. Now, I have to study your posts carefully just to understand them because you are flying above my level. I hope you'll take a moment to appreciate how far you have come.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

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  28. #1745
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    Frank....

    I've read all 44 pages of your thread today, it's taken me almost 7 hours because there is nothing here that could be skimmed over. This is one the most interesting, heartbreaking, and thrilling car builds I've ever been privy to encounter. Your persistence and will is unbelievable. I've been through tough build before (nothing compared to yours), and I can tell you one day you will treasure the ability to tell this story. You will never have a boring road trip again because you will always have a story to tell.

    Keep you chin up and keep kicking the ball, when it is all done you will have one of the coolest cars anyone has ever built, and it will have all been done your way, by you.

    Good luck.

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  30. #1746
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

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  32. #1747
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

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  34. #1748
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
    Sounds like good logic to me. Since my assumption about the old injectors being fully scaled/tuned/etc. wasn't right, going with ones that provide the values right away is the way to go. Good luck, we're rooting for you!
    Quote Originally Posted by AZPete View Post
    Frank, I've enjoyed your build thread for years. Your journey has been bumpy, curvy, frustrating, confusing, and longer than you expected, but it has also been a learning experience for you, and some of us. When I look back 44 pages ago I am very impressed at how much you've learned. Now, I have to study your posts carefully just to understand them because you are flying above my level. I hope you'll take a moment to appreciate how far you have come.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ajzride View Post
    Frank....

    I've read all 44 pages of your thread today, it's taken me almost 7 hours because there is nothing here that could be skimmed over. This is one the most interesting, heartbreaking, and thrilling car builds I've ever been privy to encounter. Your persistence and will is unbelievable. I've been through tough build before (nothing compared to yours), and I can tell you one day you will treasure the ability to tell this story. You will never have a boring road trip again because you will always have a story to tell.

    Keep you chin up and keep kicking the ball, when it is all done you will have one of the coolest cars anyone has ever built, and it will have all been done your way, by you.

    Good luck.

    I love you guys.

    Slowly getting there, I have so many stuff non-818 accumulated it takes more time than working on the car even though I take days off to rebuild.

    2019-04-01 19.30.23.jpg


    Once it's done I will have a surprise to post, some info you rarely find when you are looking for it. Since all parts were removed individually, I am able to answer the question I've been asking myself for decades. At the end, though.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  35. #1749
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Did you guys know SACHS was making condoms?

    2019-03-29 15.52.10.jpg

    Oh wait... those are grease pouches. Will work even better! lolll
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

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  37. #1750
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Did you guys know SACHS was making condoms?

    2019-03-29 15.52.10.jpg

    Oh wait... those are grease pouches. Will work even better! lolll
    THAT'S the Frank818 we have been missing! Welcome back, hombre.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  38. #1751

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    We may not comment all the time but man do i love when you post updates. Keep up the updates! I have big body revision plans for mine this coming fall and winter.

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  40. #1752
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Thought I might show pictures of the engine off the car as well as clearances I fixed or still fear.

    2019-04-07 08.10.48.jpg2019-04-07 08.10.54.jpg2019-04-07 08.11.01.jpg2019-04-07 08.11.08.jpg2019-04-07 08.15.26.jpg2019-04-07 10.27.26.jpg2019-04-07 10.27.52.jpg2019-04-07 13.34.36.jpg



    This is how tight it was to drop it in.


    2019-04-07 08.24.35.jpg
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  41. #1753
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Ok engine has started again, today. No video, too much to look at and do at the same time. However I can tell that this build is psychologically very rough. Far from out of the woods yet.


    LOTS happened in the past few weeks, 100% of my free time was on the car, not even possible to skim around here and read people's progress. Weather starts to be ok to drive but I still can't and I fear I need to dismantle the engine again to fix an oil pressure issue.



    But before that, after fixing a cold coolant leak due to a bad spec o-ring (thanks to my vendor from last year), there were a few other things I needed to fix, for some reasons a few things stop working properly after a year and a half without doing anything with the car. Ok, one of them was cuz I tried to connect a connector plug 180-deg flipped around on my gauge. Let's keep that classified.

    2019-04-13 06.16.54.jpg


    Still need to find out if my new inner CV boots will work, they are less than 1mm clearance at ride height! And they contact when car is lifted. I knew I needed to widen the metal cup around the boot, but anyway, not my priority right now.

    Attachment 106105




    My next 2 posts are as follows: first one is for the good news and 2nd one the bad news.
    Last edited by Frank818; 04-21-2019 at 06:45 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  42. #1754
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    The Good News

    • All electrical is working (after fixing)
    • NO hot leak outside of any kind! On first try, that never happened to me before. Oil, coolant and fuel are not leaking outside, this is a miracle
    • Took about 4-5 crankings to fire up the engine
    • Took another 8-10 to sort of understand why it was dying after 2-3sec. Turned off sequential injection and it fired right up (will fix that later on cuz it's not normal)
    • Engine fires up fine and keeps idle
    • Engine seems quiet. Maybe that's a bad news, though
    • The fuel values (mapping) I guessed for the new ID1050x injectors were spot on give or take 10%! That is also a miracle, I won my challenge between Old and New injectors (with bigger bore and different flowing head) on first startup. If anyone runs a stand alone ECU, I might be able to help on fuel mapping, it seems I'm not that bad
    • Blipping throttle to 2000-2500rpm also showed nice fuel values, and then I was able to roll in 1st gear for about 20 feet (in garage). Flawlessly
    • So far no clutch tik-tik-tik-tik sound when hot and pressing it, like a year and a half ago
    • Fixed a bunch of things I didn't like, clearance issues, solutions I was not happy about, etc. Even added a catch can the proper way
    • I don't think I have exhaust leaks
    • JE pistons do not make any cling-cling noise when cold (or hot). I've always been told those pistons were making noise when cold cuz they expand with heat so they flutter when cold. No noise to my ears, just my exhaust and my injectors (all normal too)
    • All 6 pistons looked similar with powdered carbon deposits (still running rich for now)
    • All 6 spark plugs looked very similar with same amount of carbon on them and no gloss
    • It seems my weird click click click on the rear right wheel when rolling is gone, if yes it was a bad bearing. But to be sure I need to roll for 100-200ft, which I can't now
    Last edited by Frank818; 04-21-2019 at 06:53 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  43. #1755
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    The Bad News

    • My AWIC pump is working but not pumping water. This one I cannot fix until I drain and remove the pump to see what's going on. Maybe just an air pocket, I don't know. Not big of a deal during engine break in cuz turbo won't be pushing. Air will be hot but still less than in AZ (right, Pete?), so I'm ok for now
    • Here's the big hit: my oil pressure at idle and 70-80C water temp (160-180F) is 11 PSI!!! 11psi = 0.8bar. I think I should have 30-40psi or something (2.5bar+). THAT worries me a lot. 2 sensors out of 3 showed me the same results, as on the pics. However those 2 are on the same piping path and maybe the piping is blocked with something, I used a lot of silicon to prevent leaks or maybe it's some teflon. The 3rd sensor is the VW OEM low pressure warning sensor. It triggers a warning on the cluster when the pressure is at 0.3bar, or 4.3psi. It did not trigger cuz I was apparently at 11. But it did trigger the last summer I drove the Corrado years ago and I highly doubt it was at 4psi. That is close to nothing. 0.3bar is low warning and my high warning OEM sensor is 1.4bar. That's 19psi, doesn't make any sense, so I don't know if I can trust those OEM warning sensors anymore cuz I don't understand the numbers they're triggered at
    • To complement the above, I found out cylinder 5 has liquid oil on top of a portion of the piston. However the spark plug has NO sign of burning oil at all + I was able to move the oil around on the piston and remove it with a thin stick, it was sticking on the piston. I wonder if the oil leaked in after engine shut down... from where? That is the question.


    2019-04-21 13.49.19.jpg2019-04-21 13.50.36.jpg2019-04-21 15.25.53.jpg


    I've heard on a freshly bored and honed block with new rings that have a wider gap to accommodate the turbo pressure it's possible during break in there is blow-by and loss of oil, cuz the walls are not smoothed out yet and oil gets trapped within the crevices and can leak. Also apparently JE pistons burn some oil during break in. But is that ok to have 11psi pressure? Definitely not to me.


    I checked oil level and priming the pump used a lot more than I thought, level was just under the minimum mark, so I added half a quart, didn't change much on level and still 11psi. I then shut if off for good and added a LOT more oil until I reached top mark. I know low oil level will greatly reduce its pressure. What are my chances that is the only culprit?



    I did not start the engine since, so I'm stressed out and won't sleep. lolll Will start Monday around 11AM-noon.
    I will call my mech at 7h30 too.


    If he says we need to remove the head and see what's up, I'll torture myself.


    I hope that little oil leaking is normal and that the low pressure was due to very low oil level.
    Last edited by Frank818; 04-21-2019 at 06:57 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  44. #1756
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurk818 View Post
    I have big body revision plans for mine this coming fall and winter.
    Come again?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  45. #1757
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Bonus surprise! Engine parts weight!

    A few posts ago I promised a surprise. It's all engine parts weight!


    While all was removed the opportunity was too good and hopefully the last to precisely weigh my engine. I always wanted to know and to compare with your 818 WRX (didn't see anyone weighing their 818 engine yet).


    Here's what I came up with (I have pix if someone wants to see something):


    • Intake manifold+TBody = 10lbs
    • Alternator = 16lbs
    • Exhaust manifold+turbo = 41lbs
    • Dry "crate" engine (pullies, oil pan, clutch, block, internals, head, cams and cam cover) = 327lbs
    • G50 gearbox wet = 153lbs
    • Oil filter housing, filter, sensors and oil feed line = 5lbs
    • Closed circuit coolant parts (housing, pipe, hoses, aux pump) = 12lbs
    • OEM oil cooler + turbo oil return line = 2lbs
    • AWIC core = 9lbs
    • Muffler = 20lbs
    • Downpipe and dump tube = 8lbs
    • Starter = 9lbs
    • Intake piping = 15lbs
    • Injectors and fuel rail = 3lbs GUESS



    Summary:

    Full exhaust from head = 69lbs
    Exhaust from DP = 28lbs
    Dry engine (no acc) with wet gearbox = 480lbs

    FULL WORKING DRIVETRAIN = 630lbs!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

  46. #1758

    Yes, I love Technology
    aquillen's Avatar
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    Did you bend any shoe-horns getting that lump in the chassis

    You likely can "validate" oil pressure senders - pull the sender and rig it to air pressure (regulated), dial up the air pressure with a trusted air pressure guage to various values and then see what the oil press guage in the car reads... I tested my low cost aftermarket guage that way just to see if it was legit..
    Art Quillen

  47. #1759
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Hey Art, didn't know I could test those with air, will keep that in my notes. Would be a last resort thing to do for me cuz in order to remove them I need to remove the filter housing which needs to get hoses and electrical wires out of the way, a long task with critical access. For the moment I'll assume it's super unlikely that 2 previously working senders would decide to fail at the exact same time and showing the exact same value.



    Called my mech and I was wrong on the oil pressure! He said 11psi at 900rpm isn't a problem. He said 30-40 is WAY too much. If I hit 55 at 3-4000rpm neutral I will be ok. He also said if not enough pressure the lifters would make a lot of noise and they didn't, the engine sounded just like it should. He also said it's normal to have some oil on the pistons during break in period, the important thing is that the plugs have no gloss.

    I felt it somehow sluggish when blipping the throttle and getting back to 900rpm but that could only be some timing and fuelling adjustments.

    I'll start it up again later today and see how it runs, but happy what I thought was bad is actually not.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017

    Bulid time, including registration 3283.5h in 148 work week time and 3.5 years elapsed

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  49. #1760

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Come again?
    LOL. I will be making front and rear end clamp shells. Also need to make front and rear flares to accommodate the 295/255 tires. Trying to decide if i should make them bolt/glue on or seamless and part of the bodywork.

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