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Thread: Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

  1. #1801
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Got it!!

    Found the problem. Something I've never heard of before!

    2019-06-28 18.48.27.jpg

    A cam gear slipping sideways.
    It did ground a bit of soft alu from the right side cover, the chain was grounding on it, I found a bit of metal, but just 3 or 4 and looking with a light I couldn't find more.
    Still I need to remove everything on that side, which means draining the coolant again. I think this will be my 10th time.

    Now what collateral damages did this do? If the gear also slipped around the shaft, then my valve timing is wrong I could have a bent valve too.


    There goes my summer for sure. I have so much frustration inside it is impossible to nail down a value on any human scale.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  2. #1802
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Frank, sorry to hear about your troubles.
    Is it a bolt that holds the sprocket on the cam shaft?
    If the keyway is still aligned, I would just tighten it.
    If not aligned, then align it, tighten, and then a quick compression test to figure out if you have internal damage.

    Good luck, you deserve some.
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

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  4. #1803
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Yes that's my plan, Bob!
    Tnx for reminding me it's called a sprocket, I had completely forgot.

    I plan on doing exactly what you suggest, with an added security, which is hand turning the engine before compression test it. Also maybe I'll try a leak-down instead of compression, just so that I won't need to crank it in case something goes wrong. But either will be done.

    Not concerned about potential small metal debris or dust that would have fallen down the chain path at the bottom of the lower chain side cover? There are 2 covers, an upper one and lower one. The latter will be a lot more work to remove.
    Last edited by Frank818; 06-29-2019 at 05:32 AM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  5. #1804
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Bob said it perfectly with, "good luck, you deserve some." I'm keeping my fingers crossed, also.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  6. #1805

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    I like your attitude - fuss, crab, cuss maybe, stew and yet - dig in and find it - not just walk away. I'm the same way.

  7. #1806
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Arf, getting closer to valve issues though...

    The sprocket did jump its keyway and the key on the sprocket has been slightly damaged, although it still locks in place when I put it on the cam, I think I'll keep that sprocket.

    2019-06-29 18.53.02.jpg


    As for the valves, my mech told me if I push on the lifters with a screwdriver and none move, it means the valves have tension on them and have not bent. He said bent valves lose tension and are easy to push down. Not sure if that's true, but no lifters is moving by a micro-millimiter!

    However, my cams are NOT aligned. See the notch on the ends of both cams? They must be in the same direction and here they are 90-deg apart.

    2019-06-29 18.48.58_1.jpg

    However again, when I look at the valves of Cyl1 and its paired cylinder, Cyl6, I can barely see a difference in the angle of the lobes, so maybe they are not aligned but not enough to have caused the valves from hitting the pistons. Remember I have 7.6CR so maybe that gives more clearance under the head, I have no idea.

    My next step is finding how to realign this thing... What happens if I turn the de-aligned cam, will the valves hit the pistons... then what happens if I turn the engine, which in turn turns the correctly aligned cam, will pistons hit valves on the de-aligned cam... I'll try TheHumbleMechanic or some other youtube.

    I have one cam aligned already, do I really need to be at TDC to align the 2nd cam?
    Judging by the lifters, both valves are closed on Cyl1.


    Anyway my problem is not how to find TDC, it's what happens if I turn either the de-aligned cam or the engine/aligned cam.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  8. #1807
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I have a question for the cam installer guys.

    I was able to reinstall the sprocket, quite a complicated task cuz the intermediate shaft was already in place which caused the chain to be to tight.

    In the process of reinstalling for a reason I don't understand the correctly aligned sprocket ended up with the chain being fitted 2 teeth tighter. The sprocket did NOT move. As you can see the chain moved 2 teeth to the left while I was playing to have some slack for the other sprocket:

    2019-06-30 11.57.29.jpg

    The red marks are photoshoped but behind are marks I made with a cutting knife on the metal so I could follow what's going on.


    What's the impact of this movement on the chain?
    Will the right yellow skate (tensioner guide) be too tight, as it removed slack from the right side of the chain, and I won't be able to torque the tensioner?
    Will it cause the engine being out of timing on that right sprocket?


    They say the slack should be all on the tensioner's side. At the moment my slack is all on the other side and I am unable to jump the chain back where it was and have the slack on the tensioner's side.

    The intermediate shaft did not move as the engine did not turn.
    Last edited by Frank818; 06-30-2019 at 11:14 AM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  9. #1808

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    Frank, I'm in no way savvy on your engine, nor positioned to argue with your mechanic 'cause of that. I had a 427 in a '69 vette that jumped time once, several degrees. Nothing got bent, so you never know...

    BUT some thoughts considering your pictures vs. valve/piston clearance extrapolated into typical engines. My understanding is a lot of engines do have very close tolerance or rather "little room for error" if they rotate when out of time - they will very likely collide some valve-piston. Given your aggravations to date, taking a chance here doesn't seem what you want to do as ol' man Murph has not been kind to you so far.

    Looking at - your shot where you circled the two ends of the the camshafts looks to me like a pretty good difference in degrees of rotation, given they are to be setup in line during timing the assembly. Then there is your picture showing the sprocket nearly off of the camshaft and it shows a galled metal area on the shaft, I'd think that happened when the sprocket turned in relation to the shaft. That doesn't show enough other than to guess but looks also like quite a few degrees of rotation between the two "happened". (i.e. they correlate regarding slipped timing).

    A scenario would have been: you heard the clicking while the sprocket was loose but still keyed - not off the end yet. Once off the end - possibly right when you shut it down, it tipped off. Now trying to rotate the engine you really are in "contact" territory - so it wouldn't want to rotate with just starter effort as a collision jammed things. Whether a valve gets bent in this scenario likely depends on starter torque... just a guess/possible on my part.

    To understand your configuration I dug around on the 'net. Have you seen this particular video on timing?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94BUU8BrQE

    Got me oriented on your motor at least.

    To sum it up: Pushing on the lifters to see if they move may be valid but my gut feeling is unsettled with that. Wondering if you can get a scope down the spark holes and check piston tops? Even that is iffy if you come up with no evidence. When you get it back together how about manually rolling each cylinder to TDC on compression (then lock the crank so it doesn't roll next) and rig up a "reverse compression test/leakdown" - send 100psi down the spark hole, seal the air supply off and see if each cyl holds pressure reasonably - compare all cylinders. A bent valve should not hold beans. Then finally compression test rolling - but I would not trust rolling that motor at starter speed again until I was feeling really confident about it's condition now.

    And of course you know this - why did that sprocket bolt come off - phone ring while you were torqueing? I'd have to check them all. Do you paint your completed torque parts (you'll see marks on my chassis and other parts where that needs to be assured - I can never remember 5 minutes after I do something like that so I mark 'em).

    Good luck as always.
    Last edited by aquillen; 06-30-2019 at 12:06 PM.

  10. #1809

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    Regarding your fuel pressure and manifold pressure. Rotating with the timing off likely pressurized the manifold, which you alluded to back in your comment (ie. the valves) about that odd pressure. The fuel pressure is no doubt regulated via reference to the manifold pressure, which I think is just about universal with FI, so it went up only because of that.

  11. #1810
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Yes I did view that video about 100 times. The problem is he is not installing while in the same situation I am.

    He installs from scratch, so the intermediate shaft sprocket is fitted last.
    Mine is already fitted and on the correct chain tooth. Then when I try to put the left sprocket back on, there is so much tension I cannot reach the cam at a straight angle to slide the sprocket in.

    I was not able to find anything that could guide me from that situation onwards.

    If I need to remove the intermediate sprocket, I have to remove the gearbox.

    There must be a way to fit that left sprocket back on with chain slack on the right side. In the meantime I realigned the faulty cam by turning it forward to catch up its 90-deg lag, so both cams' end grooves are almost the same angle. Can't get any better without being at TDC which I can't right now. Even if I am, I am unable to reinstall the left sprocket, so that's not any better.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  12. #1811
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Think I found the way, althought very dangerous.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqzLKqNwKww

    See around 3mins-3m20sec.

    I have to install the left sprocket first. Then I slide the right sprocket from below the chain. That will do.
    BUT, when I remove the right sprocket I have to be very careful not to push the chain sideways on the lower intermidiate shaft sprocket! It may jam between the sprocket and side cover.
    I think I'll wait Tuesday (Canada off tomorrow) and call my mech, ask him how he would do it to prevent that from happening. It's in this situation if I had someone to help me, that person could have lifted the chain to simulate the presence of the sprocket in order to keep tension on the intermediate sprocket, while I install the sprockets back.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  13. #1812
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Art, I did not torque those cam bolts, my mech did the installation. He told me the bolt could loosen up if the engine gets too many hard jerk ups. Which it had. 3 or 4 times, until last drive I had a problem, around 2800rpm the engine was cutting off fuel and injecting and cutting, rapidly and very very harsh, the entire car was shaking. I had missed cam sensor triggers so the ECU cut fuel. I found the problem, it was ECU configuration related, but the car got badly shook up 3 or 4 times before. That could loosen up the bolt.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  14. #1813

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    You're way ahead of my thinking - glad of that. I wonder if your mechanic will suggest lifting/moving the cam itself (yikes?). No surprise you've worked youtube over for ideas. Love to come help but a long trip.

  15. #1814
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Confirmed. 2019 is now my 3rd year in a row without being able to drive the car.

    Bent exhaust valve on Cyl2 (95% leak). The others are perfect, although one has a 10% leak but anyway I need to remove the head! Which is very complicated task on this 818 without removing the engine.

    I just hope the piston and head are not damaged. If one of them is, it's gonna be a costly repair!!


    BTW the 2nd cam bolt was removable with 2 fingers without applying any torque! This one was about to come off as well.


    Oh well, another hard hit to take.
    Last edited by Frank818; 07-01-2019 at 04:21 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  16. #1815
    Senior Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    Frank, have you pulled the oil filter?
    The reason I ask is because I see metal built up in the chain links and lots of sparkles in some of your photos in a close up.
    You know where all of this leads to.
    Hope I'm wrong

  17. #1816
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    Subscribed to this thread; great build Frank.

  18. #1817
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetfuel View Post
    Frank, have you pulled the oil filter?
    The reason I ask is because I see metal built up in the chain links and lots of sparkles in some of your photos in a close up.
    Not yet, although I don't think it's worthy yet at the moment, given the fact I need to pull the head out and unless both the head and piston are ok, I won't be driving until next Spring, which will then require an oil change at that time and looking around for metal parts stick somewhere.

    If I get super lucky and have no damage on both head and piston, then yes I'll remove the filter right away.

    The metal parts come from the chain side cover which was eaten a little bit by the sharp pins of the chain links. It's very soft metal but it's metal! Didn't seem to bother my mechanic though, although he didn't see the pictures.
    When I inspect the side cover, I don't really see that eaten up area, a groove somehwere. The evidence is more on the chain links than the cover. When I inspected the whole area (cams, sprockets, chain, area around chain, guides, etc.) I did not find metal parts anywhere other than the chain links.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  19. #1818
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Frank, do you plan to address the cam bolts with some sort of locking mechanism (loctite?). That seems to be the root cause of the issue.

  20. #1819
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STiPWRD View Post
    Frank, do you plan to address the cam bolts with some sort of locking mechanism (loctite?). That seems to be the root cause of the issue.
    Oh god damn yes! lol
    Blue loctite.

    If the problem was the bad ECU value making it miss the cam sensor trigger, which is fixed now, then those bolts should never come out especially with loctite.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  21. #1820
    Senior Member DSR-3's Avatar
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    >Blue loctite< No, use Red Loctite, or locking tabs, or safety wire. Blue is too wimpy.
    Way back when- the first multi (4cyl) motorcycle engine I built was with the help of a known tuner. My first task was to "slot the cam sprockets". After learning to "degree the cams" and plot the profiles, etc. it was down to a good cleaning and red loctite to hold the screws with enough force to keep the sprockets from rotating. I was pretty surprised that that's all he used, and later found that it held tight until the end of the season/next rebuild. The next one I built and safety wired them (that lasted too).
    You made a major find/fix, and once you get over this I hope it's time for some good luck for you. Thanks for posting your experiences, and keep on it!
    818S #332, EZ30R H6, California licensed 01/2019

  22. #1821
    Senior Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    Frank, I understand your pain and I know you're discouraged after all the setbacks and not being able to drive your sweet ride.
    Please don't wait to pull the filter, screen the oil from it through a coffee filter and with a flashlight see if it sparkles, cut the filter open with a box knife and look at the element, this simple test will determine a different course of action now and not in the back end.
    About your sprocket, replace it, that gear sustained some serious corner loading not designed for or at least have it magnetic particle inspected to make sure no cracks are present.

  23. #1822

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    I'd go red loctite as well. You can get things apart using it - just take more effort. But it holds way better than blue, as designed. You'd think I sell the stuff as much as I like it. Used it on this and that in the nuclear Navy sub I was on (although specifically nuclear plant components we used whatever was spec'd no more/no less).

    Serviced medical x-ray equipment of every type. Those CT scanners, nuclear imaging heads, tables you get tilted up and down on during barium exams, etc., are HEAVY. Lots of moving parts that like to work loose over time. Most of my partners just put the screws, nuts, whatever back on and tightened. I'd be in there a month later and something they did was coming apart. I Loctite pretty much everything I don't want to come back to. Keep primer and various grades on hand always, study the spec sheets and so on. Primer reduces strength some and is only needed on specific materials and if you don't have time to wait on it.

  24. #1823
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSR-3 View Post
    >Blue loctite< No, use Red Loctite, or locking tabs, or safety wire. Blue is too wimpy.
    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    I'd go red loctite as well.
    I thought about red but was under the impression it could make things too hard to remove the next time. But I'm not reinstalling in the interest of the foreseeable future of removing that part again.
    Will do red, then.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetfuel View Post
    Frank, I understand your pain and I know you're discouraged after all the setbacks and not being able to drive your sweet ride.
    Please don't wait to pull the filter, screen the oil from it through a coffee filter and with a flashlight see if it sparkles, cut the filter open with a box knife and look at the element, this simple test will determine a different course of action now and not in the back end.
    About your sprocket, replace it, that gear sustained some serious corner loading not designed for or at least have it magnetic particle inspected to make sure no cracks are present.
    Thought about those 2 things as well for the same reasons you mentioned, but remained undecided until now.
    If I'm not the only one thinking about something, it means it might be a good thing to do, there are close to no collateral damages of pulling the trigger on the filter and sprocket! Besides I will receive the sprocket in the mail way before I will receive the new valve or get the head repaired if it's damaged.

    According to my mech since the piston is forged it should not be damaged in a way to replace it. Let's hope.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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  26. #1824
    Senior Member Jetfuel's Avatar
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    Glad to hear your thoughts.
    Impatiently awaiting the results and hope the contact was minimal.....

  27. #1825
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    About buying a new sprocket, everywhere I looked it was a discontinued part! Mostly sold for 100 bucks.

    Except at ECS Tuning where it's at 72 bucks... But only available to ship on Oct 4th! I'll see what to do, but if I'm lucky and there's no internal damage, I won't wait until Oct 4th, I will reuse my current sprocket, buy a new one and swap it later in the winter.

    I found a place where it was listed at 25 bucks! Site seemed fishy. I ordered anyway, free shipping and discount of 10%. Too good to be true is fishy, right? It immediately froze my credit card, cuz I saw 2 payments going through, one of which got blocked by my CC company cuz they suspected the place to be a scam from China, and the first one passed, 2 bucks above the amount I should have paid. They told me if I get nothing within 30 days to call back and they will refund. Which I will.

    However now I cannot buy anything with that card until I get my new card. Can't order a valve, or lifters for about 1 to 2 weeks. I use that card for everything I buy, groceries, shopping, car, etc.

    Yeah maybe it's my fault on this one, but come on, gimme a break... lol
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  28. #1826
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    I'd buy a new timing chain while your at it too. The one you have probably got stretched - you said the motor seized up, right?

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  30. #1827
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    The motor didn't seize up, it was running "fine" considering the cam bad timing. I shut it down.

    The motor is blocking when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops. Then I rotate back, then fwd again stops, then back then fwd again stops, etc.

    Changing the chain requires removing the engine and unbolting the gearbox. I'll think about it, at the moment I don't plan on doing so because the engine was still running at a decent rpm.


    However I will change my lifters (tapets sort of), some look different on the top. I have found a set lightweight and DLC coated, this goes in the path of my goal when I rebuilt the engine, which is making it ligther on rotating parts and frictionless.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  31. #1828
    Senior Member DSR-3's Avatar
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    >when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops.< This with everything installed and set correctly?
    I don't have a good feel for how much room you have, or how your engine is installed, but I would seriously consider pulling it all to do the work. An investment of a day to pull and one to install you will have the best conditions to do the work, check things out, and get it right. There's not much I would do in my engine while in the car, it's too easy to pull it and avoid much access-grief.
    818S #332, EZ30R H6, California licensed 01/2019

  32. #1829
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    The motor didn't seize up, it was running "fine" considering the cam bad timing. I shut it down.

    The motor is blocking when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops. Then I rotate back, then fwd again stops, then back then fwd again stops, etc.

    Changing the chain requires removing the engine and unbolting the gearbox. I'll think about it, at the moment I don't plan on doing so because the engine was still running at a decent rpm.


    However I will change my lifters (tapets sort of), some look different on the top. I have found a set lightweight and DLC coated, this goes in the path of my goal when I rebuilt the engine, which is making it ligther on rotating parts and frictionless.
    Are you sure your cams are still in time? Typically, and engine that stops rotating as you describe is having a valve meeting a piston. I'm not familiar with this engine specifically, but from the DOHC motors I've done (well over 100) the mechanical cam chain tensioners worked well in the direction of engine rotation, less so the other way. If it's a hydraulic tensioner, then this would be especially true. It doesn't take much for cams to be out (1-2 teeth) before you have a problem with an interference motor. I'd encourage you to double check this, and try to avoid rotating the crank opposite to its intended direction.

  33. #1830
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSR-3 View Post
    >when I try to manually rotate it fwd by hand. It stops.< This with everything installed and set correctly?
    No.
    Cams were possibly out of timing cuz I've played with them and crank too much and lost my alignment points.
    Anyway I cannot bring the engine to TDC, exhaust valve on Cyl2 is pushed down, with cams removed, and prevents the piston from moving up. Or, the lack of tension on the chain (cams removed) prevents the lower gear from rotating which stops the pistons there, but either way I have 1 valve that sits 5-6mm lower inside it's hole, that's NOT normal at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by DSR-3 View Post
    I don't have a good feel for how much room you have, or how your engine is installed, but I would seriously consider pulling it all to do the work.
    125h to remove and reinstall engine/gearbox. 10 weeks. Excludes removing/fixing/reinstalling head, time to fix other things I will mess up (80% of the time it happens) and time to seal leaks I created (happens 80% of the time). If it leaks on the lower side cover, I have to remove engine and gearbox again to trial-and-error-fix-it.


    As for timing chain, I'll measure the distance between links at various places along the chain, like on motorcycles, and see if it got stretched.


    Quote Originally Posted by lakercr View Post
    Are you sure your cams are still in time?
    They were most probably not, which is why I removed both and now will remove head to check on that valve.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  34. #1831
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Happy 4th to every US bud!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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  36. #1832
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Got some interesting updates.

    Decided to wake up at 4 in order to give a blitz on that head before going to work and I finally took it off. Was pretty hard, I hope I didn't stretch anything around, wires or something. Will not be easy to put it back on but nothing's easy to service on that engine in that specific car.

    When off, looks like a Porsche engine, flat and wide. loll


    Definately a bent valve as you can see. The marks on other valves are possibly top of studs when I took the head off, they might have rubbed on the valves, there is no scratch or dent there after cleaning the valves.


    IMG_20190710_070358.jpgIMG_20190710_070410.jpgIMG_20190710_070436.jpgIMG_20190710_070500.jpgIMG_20190710_070549.jpgIMG_20190710_070600.jpgIMG_20190710_070608.jpgIMG_20190710_073645.jpgIMG_20190710_074146.jpgIMG_20190710_074438.jpg



    The head does not seem to be damaged, however I cannot yet remove the valve to make sure of that (don't have the tool). Either way I have to order a new valve, this week so I won't waste 1 week while I'm off next week in a motorcycle trip. Hence the blitz on removing the head now!




    However, the piston's ceramic coating has been very slightly chipped. By rubbing on the chip I was able to get very tiny amounts of coating off of the piston.


    That I am not sure what to do. Will it harm once engine runs? Should I buff it and make it smooth? Will explosions inside the cylinder take more material off with time?


    I have no idea and that's a huge one cuz if I need to get a new piston, it's everything off again. At the moment I just swap valves, fix the head if damaged and I will run again in 2019. My mech said 1 day to fix this.


    New pistons means I'm dead until late next Spring.


    However again, my mech says it's not a problem. I also googled and saw worse pistons and people taking about worse situations and all was fine.




    So will order a new valve and gaskets today. Let's put an end to those issues.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  37. #1833
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Today is my birthday. Yesterday I finished fixing the bent valve late so today was my re-re-re-first start up since May after finish issues.

    This is the valve.

    2019-07-28 11.47.53.jpg

    How did it go?

    2 problems, could not drive. Did you guys really think I would get lucky cuz it's my birthday...

    1- My rad fan was not working, engine almost overheated. I have no idea what went wrong, I put 12v directly on the fan motor and it's not spinning. I played more with it, trying to open it, it's sealed. I tried again 12v and oh it works! I tried from my ECU, where it's controlled from, and it works again. WTF? God damn Chinese fan from FrozenBoost.

    2- I did a mistake and my cam timing is wrong! This caused the engine to knock at idle and a bunch of other things you can read here:




    I followed the HumbleMechanic's procedure at 2mins19s

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v94BUU8BrQE

    and it's either wrong or I went back too far on the crank. My own mechanic told me he ALWAYS keeps it straight up at TDC and does not turn the crank backwards.


    When I checked my diag before firing up the engine, I noticed my cam sensor was now at 52-deg instead of 54, 2-deg earlier. Interesting cuz in order to fix my knocking I had to back off 2-deg, but I backed off 3 to make sure.

    This is how it sounded afterwards, still rough so I knew something else was wrong.

    https://youtu.be/pvYtKQzp298

    I was not able to install the chain correctly on the sprockets without playing a little bit with the cams, otherwise the chain has tension on the wrong end. I don't understand how that works and how to make it right. I can never make it right and this pisses off.

    I got to remove again the side cover and now I have to find a way to unbolt cam bolts that have RED LOCTITE on them. It's difficult to bolt them cuz the hexagon on the cam is far away from the bolt, so my arms are making a V shape and I loose a lot of strength with that.

    I'm thinking of using a short shot of impact gun on the cam bolts, but I think that's pretty bad.

    Next time I'm using blue loctite if I have problems removing them with red.



    Check out the misalignment on the cam. However the long cam should be off 2-deg cuz it's the one with the sensor, not the short one that is way off. There's no way I can make the long cam sit 2-degs less, a sprocket tooth is more than that. I don't know how this will turn out but I have first to find a way to install that damn chain with the slack on the tensioner side and not the opposite side, all that while the cams are straight horizontal.

    2019-08-04 10.25.41.jpg



    In a nutshell, I am really an incompetent. For the past 2 years, all the car issues I've had are due to mistakes I made. So I'm wasting my time working on it 5-6-7 times and I still make mistakes. Such a damn incompetent.
    Last edited by Frank818; 08-05-2019 at 04:16 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  38. #1834
    Senior Member metros's Avatar
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    But think of all you've learned and become better at! I've made plenty of my own mistakes while building. Mistakes that have resulted in considerable spending to re-do parts that I trimmed too much or re-powder coating, etc. All of those mistakes have resulted in some lesson. If you don't acknowledge that then it was a waste of time. If you can realize you're better now than you were before, you've gained something. Not always easy to keep in focus during moments of frustration.

    Keep at it.

  39. #1835
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    Heat up the bolt, Red Loctite lets loose over 300 degrees unless it is high temp red which is over 500 degrees

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  41. #1836
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metros View Post
    But think of all you've learned and become better at! I've made plenty of my own mistakes while building. Mistakes that have resulted in considerable spending to re-do parts that I trimmed too much or re-powder coating, etc. All of those mistakes have resulted in some lesson. If you don't acknowledge that then it was a waste of time. If you can realize you're better now than you were before, you've gained something. Not always easy to keep in focus during moments of frustration.

    Keep at it.
    Good point. I don't want to learn those things now in the past 2 years but that's how it works.



    In the meantime I was able to remove the cam bolts, one was quite hard, the other very very hard. I feared breaking something off but I think I'm ok. Next time blue loctite.

    I may have found part of my problem but have no clue yet how to fix. At TDC and with the cam lock tool on, I see a few degrees off between the cams, judging by the sprockets' notches, if that is precise.

    2019-08-05 21.26.03_1.jpg2019-08-05 21.26.25_1.jpg2019-08-05 21.26.32_1.jpg

    This difference prevents me from fitting one sprocket at the right tooth, by 1mm or less. Apparently I should not move the cams to make this fit, cuz normally after timing I should rotate the crank and fit the lock tool again to ensure all is aligned. If I move the cam, the lock tool won't fit.

    Should I really back off a little from TDC? I don't know.

    Next step is to find a proper lock tool, as this one I have built myself, maybe it's not good and causes this misalignment.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  42. #1837
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    It is all about the journey and what we learn along the way. If you don't tackle each challenge and try, then you haven't made yourself better. The things you are trying I haven't even considered attempting yet. It took me 6 months to put wires into the car the right way, taking the whole darn thing out five times. The reason I am making the rear firewall removable is because of the 10 times I had to drill out the rivets on the front firewall! And I truly think I had to lift the seats in and out of the car 200 times to get their mounting all corrected. I haven't even tried to start the darn thing yet.

    Hang in there....

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  44. #1838
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    After taking a step back, helped doing so by you guys as always, I found out exactly what was wrong. Yes I didn't really know 100% before.

    I installed the cams super badly wrong, the short cam was one tooth off AND BOTH cams where installed 180-deg upside down!!!!

    Now anyone learning on how TDC works, this is why I made that double mistake.
    I thought what was defining TDC on firing stroke was when piston #1 was at top and cams where fitted properly and locked with cam tool. WRONG! It's not just the cams in relation with the crank, it's the crank in the relation with the intermediate gear in relation with the cams!

    While reading through the Bentley manual I found out there's a notch on the intermediate gear and that notch should be seen WHILE crank markers are aligned. Like this:

    2019-08-06 18.29.17.jpg

    Well it was the other way around yesterday.
    This means the engine was pumping air from the exhaust valve and pushing it through the intake valve? How's that possible and how can an engine run "that well" when the cams are fitted upside down? Anyway.

    Now they fit almost perfect, maybe 2-deg difference between the 2 but that's well within the chain slack margin. I did not follow the HumbleMechanic's advice of backing off slightly the crank in order to fit the cams. They went down without hitting on anything.

    2019-08-06 12.56.59.jpg2019-08-06 18.28.16.jpg2019-08-06 18.28.45.jpg

    Also the cam tool fits even after one full cam rotation (2 crank rotations). This means tension is good and alignment is good. Yes the intermediate gear notch is still showing.

    You can see above the cam tool I built, works better than the plastic one from VW. I used some louvers from VRaptor which I could not fit on one side of my rear quarter panel openings due to my air filter. The louvers where fitting almost perfect right off the bat, minimal mods applied. I then put silicone and glued the 2 louvers together, perfect thickness, sturdy enough.

    Can't start the engine until a small window Thursday, but I'll crank it without fuel and watch my ECU diag, to make sure nothing else was wrong. Or to find out what else is wrong... ugh.
    Last edited by Frank818; 08-06-2019 at 07:16 PM.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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  46. #1839

    Yes, I love Technology
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    That is a major relief I'm sure, heck I feel it here just following you.

    By the way what did you think about disassembly on that red Loctite? I would not expect it to have been scary. Did you use same or go blue this time?

  47. #1840
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Art, it is a relief as late last night I cranked it dry (no fuel and no plugs) and the oscilloscope showed 54-deg for cam position sensor, which is what it's supposed to be.
    For some weird reasons, I am now quite confident all will be good next time I fire it up, which should be this afternoon if weather gives me a chance. I just fear that something will break while I drive on highway but I've got a long run to do before I drive on highway.

    As for red loctite, one of the bolt was quite harder than the other. If both were like the easier one, I'd keep red. However on the short cam the bolt was really tight. Since I am doing this alone and due to the configuration of the cam vs bolt I have to have a V shape made with my arms while one arm keeps the cam from spinning and the other removes the bolt, all that while I am bent over the big rear quarter panel. This reduces quality strenght which makes it harder to stabilize the cam, I didn't want the cam to rotate and a valve hitting piston. Doing it with someone else I'd keep red on both bolts.

    I put blue on, at the moment. Anyway I know I have to remove one cam already as I have to change 2 lifters which seem faulty, they lost part of their DLC coating and have a rougher surface (after 30mins of idling!). In 2-3 weeks. Then I'll be able to compare blue vs red.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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