Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[Xusia]

Sure I did think about it. You think it's worth it?

Up to you. This is a build thread, but it's your build thread, so do what you want. I just though it might be easier for other folks to find.

[Frank818]

So after spending a lot of time learning about vinyl wraps, I decided to opt for Teckwrap www.teckwrap.com based in Maryland. I've seen a few reviews and compared the specs to the other brands and since the price is half of the others, it's so cheap I decided to give them a try. 5ftx50ft for $USD240!

I also bought some 4D CF Black for the 2 humps, maybe the rear spoiler and possibly a few accents inside the car. They have a store on eBay as well. So we'll see.

I still got a lot of parts to buy!

[Frank818]

This is what I got today in the mail:

2013-12-18 17.16.00.jpg

Projector lamps, double halos. No HID but I don't care as I don't plan on using the car very often at night.

So if FFR cannot give me credit for the OEM Camry headlight they provide with the kit, I will have a pair up for sale!

[Xusia]

Nice. I also bought a pair of those Spyders for my car. They looked just too good to pass up!

[Frank818]

Absolutely. And with your (USA) Tnxgiving rebates, I couldn't say no.
Now I am attacking the potential X-Mas rebates at VCP.

[DruOdil]

Where did you guys buy your spyders?
Dru

[Xusia]

AutoAnything.com

[Frank818]

TLN AUTOPARTS, an eBay seller.
Price with shipping was quite lower than RacingLab.com and 2 other places I have seen them.

[DruOdil]

So they are just the replacement for a Camry? What year?
Dru

[Frank818]

Absolutely!
Camry 2002-2006.

[Frank818]

Some other stuff came in today. LED strips with adhesive, bright red, which I will plug with the brake lights, I will use as a 3rd brake light. El cheapo stuff I know, but if it works and looks good, why not?

2013-12-19 20.12.15.jpg

[riptide motorsport]

Some other stuff came in today. LED strips with adhesive, bright red, which I will plug with the brake lights, I will use as a 3rd brake light. El cheapo stuff I know, but if it works and looks good, why not?

2013-12-19 20.12.15.jpg

Nothing wrong with being frugal!

[Frank818]

Got more stuff today.

2013-12-23 14.41.55.jpg

This is some adhesive faux-suede sheets. I got blue and black (not pictured). It will be for my dash, e-brake handle, seats, center console, inner door panels, probably s/w if I can wrap around and some other places maybe.

This thing is awesome!!!!!!! It is so smooth!!!!! I am very impressed of the quality. And as you can see, the finger marks show quite nice!

The eBay seller I did business with is from South Korea and he's blast! Second time I deal with these people (Korea, no this seller twice yet) and second time they ship in 3 business days!!! Unbelievable.

[Speedy G]

Good stuff!

Hey Frank, have you thought about the tranny shifter linkage? Have you talked to your mech about it? I'm worried that the length and direction of the cables will affect the viability of the shifter. Somehow the linkage has to move in the opposite direcction to shift. The shifter itself has to be mounted backwards so first would be to the right and down if the cables are mounted on the tranny the way they wer intended. I think we'll have to either fab the shifter itself, modify the tranny linkage, or mount some kind of reversing bracket on the tranny coupling. The thing is a reversing bracket is probably the easiest but will probably add flex to an already "flexy" tranny shifting mechanism. Any ideas?

Speedy G

[metalmaker12]

You guys are in for a treat to re-engineer this setup. I give you props, and admire it. But to be honest the subie platform is better in every way for this car. Godspeed

[Frank818]

Speedy, I not going down the route of re-using the VW shifter. I will use the K-Tuned shifter along with cables. Wayne will prep the correct length based on my measurements. Then I believe there will be some fab to do to make the cables and brackets work properly.

The OEM shifter on older VW (like the AAA engine) is not very precise, you are correct.




Metal, my plan is to minimize the use of non-Subie parts. I just want my engine and tranny in, as they have the perfect setup for my goal. Reaching this goal with subie drivetrain would cost me a lot more (in terms of $). The compromise is I will have to spend more time building and re-engineer a few things, but I keep it to the minimal. The shifter is not one of them (aside from the brackets, but Wayne did it, so why not me and my old mech).

[nkw8181]

Metalmaker I tried to send you a message but can't. Says you inbox is full

[metalmaker12]

Ok I will empty, send again

[Speedy G]

Mmm... That's awesome, you have a solution already! That was keeping me up at night.

Metalmaker, subies are cool, but if just think about what the cheapest way of getting ft lbs, for us it's a VR6 and a 1.8t VAG engines(I'm thinking about buying it back btw). I'd appreciate any insight you could give us. All I know is VAG engines, it sounds like you know a little more about FFR. I'll probably have a hard time because I'm considering not even using a subie donor.

[Xusia]

Hey Speedy, if one was already built and titled in the US, could you import it? I ask because IIRC you have only a year to complete the build, and the custom work you'll need to use a VW engine, have the creature comforts, etc., are going to take added time. If importing a completed one is an option, that might work out better...

[metalmaker12]

Mmm... That's awesome, you have a solution already! That was keeping me up at night.

Metalmaker, subies are cool, but if just think about what the cheapest way of getting ft lbs, for us it's a VR6 and a 1.8t VAG engines(I'm thinking about buying it back btw). I'd appreciate any insight you could give us. All I know is VAG engines, it sounds like you know a little more about FFR. I'll probably have a hard time because I'm considering not even using a subie donor.

I am actually well versed in Subie,Vw's and Hondas for imports. I have owned a few 1.8 and vr6 Gti's. My 1.8 was built and had the apr turbo kit and made like 375whp. I also had a Acura 94 Gsr built/turbo with over 400. I moved to Subies and never looked back. My last car which I sold for this project was a 2006 Sti with forged pistons and rods, stock crank, stock heads, 1000cc injectors, Perrin fuel rails, Gt35 custom kit, dry sump and custom oil pan, custom headers, act stage three clutch, pulley kit, custom intake and front mount kit, Methanol injection and some other **** lol with an opensource tune. I actually spent the least on the subie and made the most power 513 whp and it was the most reliable, well that and the honda. My vw motors held up good, but the trannies sucked. My subie 6 was stock except for clutch and so was my Gsr, and they held up good. I rebuilt several vw trannies.

Not knocking dubs they are great engines, and you gotta appreciate the over engineering. But the center of gravity of the boxer is the key element here. To get even close the vw drivetrain will have to be tilted a lot to even come close to fitting. I mean there is barely any room for the boxer to fit. You are going to have to literally cut the whole rear of the car apart and measure your butts off. Your best bet as I look at this is if you angle the setup rearward you would have a good chance of success. What I mean is tranny forward, engine angles back. It can and will be done, just another huge hill to climb. As far as the spindles etc. you can make adapters I am sure, just be ready for serous fabrication work across the board here, Wish you luck.

[Frank818]

My vw motors held up good, but the trannies sucked.

That is true on some, if not most. The first gen VR6s are one of the toughest, which is the one I run for 20 years. The way I run it, it's proven very reliable, so I want to keep it.
The OEM tranny. Yes it's a weak point, they reach their max output pretty quickly, especially 3rd gear and even worse on the 02A. That's why I went with a rebuilt, strengthen and cryo-treated 6-sp box. I wouldn't go to 450-500whp with that box as it's not designed for that, but I don't want to, the engine runs perfect for quite some time, I know how to take care of it, why add it more power on a 2100lbs car (the 818, not the Corrado).

But the center of gravity of the boxer is the key element here. To get even close the vw drivetrain will have to be tilted a lot to even come close to fitting.

Absolutely, center of gravity will change, there is no way I can keep it.

The fitting will be very tight in terms of height. My mech and I checked long time all the measurements that were provided on this forum, with pictures, and we have a few ideas. Sure these are just measurements and not actual fittings, I am aware of the risk. It ain't that pretty, we will swear a lot too, but we'll see. The good thing for me is if it doesn't work, I put the engine back in the VW and will either use a Subie engine or try one of those 80s air-cooled Porsche 3.2L that my mech loves so much. If I do that, my project will wait longer for completion, but I want to learn all that stuff, building, fitting engines, see what can or cannot be done, etc. So there is no risk for me (just money spent for learning), unlike Speedy who is very handcuffed with the Columbian laws.

Spindles are taken care of as of now (if that does not change later). DriveshaftShop (builds FFR's axles) can custom build any shaft. VW inner to Subie outer is an option, with specified unequal length (that I need to measure once all is in place but the axles). I have other ideas, but this one will work. Yes, more money. What would we expect when trying to fit parts that were not designed for the kit in the first place.


As for me, my point is if I can't make it fit properly or without way too much changes, so be it, I'll turn around and move on the Subie or Porsche.

[Frank818]

For example, I don't know a crap of shift linkages. But I know the VW box to reach reverse gear you have to be in neutral, push the lever straight down, then left, then forward into R gear. How is that going to work with the K-Tuned shifter that I was planning to use? May it cannot and I will be stuck using the OEM box, which I don't really like. So yes a lot of questions will come up and lot of answers will have to come up to. A lot of work is the baseline.

[Frank818]

Ok so that's what I meant.
The K-Tuned awesome billet shifter that we see pictures around a couple of build threads is most probably a no-go for me. Mike at K-Tuned confirmed me there is no push-down feature available on their nice shifter.

So the best attraction of my build has gone. lolll Back on using the OEM shifter (of course the FFR so-called Corolla shifter is a no-go as well for the same reason). I will see if I can find a better looking solution.

[Speedy G]

Well if the fit of the VR6 is a no-go, and something like what Metal is saying is necessary to make it fit, I'll buy a subaru donor. I know my time is tight, but down here I can hire mechs for cheaper than up there to help out. We have a track near here and those guys are used to recycling or fabricating anything into a racecar. I could also have it built in the states and then import it, but the issue of timing is still there. The build year of the chasis and the engine have to be the same as the year you're registering it in. So the engine has to be new since they require a dated sales bill with the build year of the engine. However, even with a donor, I'd buy all new suspension parts, harness and standalone.

In any case, I hear you Metal, regarding the strength of VAG trannies, yeah, true, but the stock rods go before the trannies. They' re better then DSM trannies though. The O2J sucked at shifting above 7500RPM even with mods. The O2M is better though, and all can handle 300ft lbs of torque. My ideal setup would be a 3.2 VR6T with a DSG tranny, but there's no standalone controller for the tranny so I'm hoping to find an O2M. What I wanted to do with the 3.2 VR6 is try to make 300ft lbs over a wide range of RPM, say 2000 to 7500. That way traction isn't that much of a problem and the tranny doesn't have to take the grunt of 400ft lbs. If I buy back my 1.8t the innards of the tranny are getting replaced and the plan is to rev it to 8500RPM, but I'd have to granny shift. We'll see what I can find. If I am able to find a WRX with a viable engine for USD10k I'd definitely go that route.

Regarding the shifter, maybe looking at the shifter mechanism can tell you if you really need the stock one. What I mean is that it only has two main wires going to the tranny. One for forward-back motion and the other for left right. There's no push-down wire, so reverse gets limited by the shifting mechanism, not the tranny. If that's true, you CAN use any shifter you want, just be careful of not going into reverse instead of first.

[Mechie3]

I ask because IIRC you have only a year to complete the build

Is that a Colombia thing?

[Frank818]

Is that a Colombia thing?

I think yes, I think Speedy only has 1 year to complete the build. Speedy? Gotta be speedy, right?

[Frank818]

SpeedyGsus, lol, you will have traction issues with 300wtq at 2000, with a car that light, I think yes. But you can control with the pedal.

As for the shift linkage, I'd have to ask my mech about how using a non-push-down shifter on a 6-sp tranny could work with the VW reverse gear. I don't picture in my head what you are saying. What you say is that if I move forward as if I were to go in 1st but I stop in the middle of the throw I could make it engage reverse?

[Speedy G]

Yeah, it's a Colombia thing.

Yeah, but 400wtq is just as stupid as an MB AMG on the track. You'll be spinning hard in third. That's why it's better to have a wide power band without hardcore peaks. Like an S2000, high rpm to get hp, but torque is low. It takes more tuning on the wastegate control side, but it's doable. What I'm saying is that a way to get 400whp on this car to the ground is to go higher in RPM and lower on the torque. The O2M synchros should be able to take it.

No, what I'm saying is that the pushdown is just a safety feature of the shifter mechanism. The tranny knows nothing about the push down. I infer this from the fact that there is only 2 cables coming out of the shifter mechanism. One is the left right movement, and the other is the front back movement. What that means is that first is simply between reverse and third if you use a different shifter. Like in the folling pic:

0507_03z+Lamborghini_Murcielago_Roadster+Interior_Close_Up_Shift_Gate.jpg

Now that's a shifter I like. You could pull a mechie and bury the mechanism to do something like that.

[Frank818]

What I'm saying is that a way to get 400whp on this car to the ground is to go higher in RPM and lower on the torque.

That is true. Though I am not a fan of revving high the VW engines. I can't talk for the 1.8/2.0T, but the VR usually doesn't like anything over 7000 unless you put some hardcore valve hardware (springs, seals, guides, lightweight valves, etc.), then it can go to 7500, but I have always feared more due to the hydraulic lifters. I don't know on the newer VRs and 4cyls, though. On mine I start cutting around 6300 and up to a hard stop at 6700 or 6800, though it could take up to 7000-7200. Reliability I need. But it's so fast I rarely go up to 6000, it feels so fast that I think I am already at redline and I upshift. In fact, I am maybe only at 5000-5500. loll

No, what I'm saying is that the pushdown is just a safety feature of the shifter mechanism. The tranny knows nothing about the push down. I infer this from the fact that there is only 2 cables coming out of the shifter mechanism. One is the left right movement, and the other is the front back movement. What that means is that first is simply between reverse and third if you use a different shifter.

Ha, I get it. There could be a button, lever or pull ring on rod thing that could be used to engage (disengage actually) the safety measure. I'll think about that, but tnx for explaning, that helps.

[Frank818]

So I got 3 packages today. I mean yesterday.

TBody-Squeegee-BA15S-ValveStems.jpg

Got some LED BA15S for stuff like flashers. They are for test purposes and if it works well I'll buy more.

Got some anodized blue valve stems to go with my blue body wrap. Will fit on black wheels.

Got a felt-edge squeegee for the wrap.

Got a 2.0L VW T-Body.


Now that last one may be weird, right. This smaller t-body is part of some thinking and analysis I've conducted the past year. It's not related to the 818 build, but the 818 build makes me make the move about it!

The theory is fully airflow related and no one could prove me wrong or right, due to the complexity of airflow in intakes, manifolds, chambers and exhausts.
This is what I think:

The VR6 t-body is very big, the outlet is about 68mm (2.7"), that is huge. It's enough to make probably 1000hp or more. On the stock VR, it's NA so always under vacuum or at atmosphere (0psi as overboost). The t-body doesn't work the same way as under boost. When NA, if it's too small, it will restrict airflow or make it "swirl" differently, which changes the way air and fuel are mixed and blahblah. Not sure but I think when the t-body is bigger it helps a little to let the air in and may help gain just a few higher hps, but I am really unsure about that. Don't ask me why VW put such a big one on the VR, though.

That being said, on a forced induction engine, things don't work the same. The air is pushed through the pipes, which changes altogether the restriction, swirling and mixture efficiency. On my setup, my AWIC core is 2.25" ID. So my intake piping is 2.25". But my t-body outlet is 2.7"! My piping fills only 83% of the valve's volume.
The behavior I have right now is that when the t-body's butterfly flap is open at around 66%, anything over does NOTHING on the engine. At 66% TPS opening I hit the maximum air volume into the engine. Which makes the last 33% completely useless and I lose throttle control cuz of that. My theory is that I think if I can have a matching t-body (or matching piping and AWIC core) I could have a much better control. Of course, butterfly t-bodies are NOT linear for air volume vs TPS opening. But when 33% is lost in space, I think it's not optimal.

The dirty T-body I just got has a 58mm outlet (66-68 inlet, as opposed to maybe 75-80 on my current one), which matches my 2.25" piping by maybe 2mm. I'll try that out while I get the engine out and re-do my intake piping to make it fit the 818's engine bay.

[Speedy G]

Yeah just remember that flowing 500cfm or whatever you're flowing is VERY turbulent flow in 2.25" pipe, and it's fast. I remember someone calculating for what HP it would be supersonic. That means a half open TB will cause a LOT of turbulence after it, which takes up space. Let me know how the experiment goes. If you hear whining noises, there's definitely too much turbulence.

[Speedy G]

Hey Frank, i just found this pdf on the 02M gearbox. It describes in detai the operation of the shifter: http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_205.pdf

[Frank818]

Nice PDF Speedy! So yeah the R is further to the left than 1st. I just need a stopper on any non-push-down shifter that I can unlock manually to make the shifter go to the left. When locked it would stop just before, where 1st is. I'll to my mech on that.

[Frank818]

Well another part came in.

Steering Wheel.jpg

320mm (I like them small, feeling is better). Normal S/Ws are 350mm.

Cheap (40 bucks shipping included!!!!!) ebay one, but I was impressed by the finish. For the price. It's not all leather like 200+ S/Ws, but it looks nice and it feels really nice in the hands. The back of the S/W where you usually place your hands (at 3h and 9h) is thicker with a hollow section for the fingers, like we see on quality sport S/Ws or race ones (F1, etc.). Feels really nice.

If I don't like the finish once installed and after using it, I can wrap it with suede (won't be easy!!!!) or simply buy a can of suede spray from Alsa Wrap. So I have 2 backup doors I can use if I ever need it. 3rd one: get rid of the S/W and use my current 320mm Momo (on the Corrado) and 4th one, buy another S/W! So plenty of options.

[Frank818]

I signed-up for the Hot List. This is when someone cancels his/her order or post-pones it, a date opens up. I just got an email from FFR, they opened up April 19-23rd 2014!!! I am due in Oct 2014! That is really early!!

Is that a good news? Yes and no. Yes it is cuz I can start earlier and use the warmer summer to work on it and hopefully finish it for Spring 2015. The bad news, I am very afraid the powdercoat and fiberglass panels quality issues won't be solved by then. So I don't know if I should or not accept the date... weird dilemma.

[Mechie3]

My powder coat only has issues where body panels rubbed it.

[ehansen007]

0507_03z+Lamborghini_Murcielago_Roadster+Interior_Close_Up_Shift_Gate.jpg

Now that's a shifter I like. You could pull a mechie and bury the mechanism to do something like that.

I was just looking at fabbing that gated shifter! So cool and although retro, looks awesome.

[Canadian818]

Your assuming the problem will be fixed by october...FFR has yet to admit there's a problem at all. You should see my front bumper, pics coming soon.

[Xusia]

I signed-up for the Hot List. This is when someone cancels his/her order or post-pones it, a date opens up. I just got an email from FFR, they opened up April 19-23rd 2014!!! I am due in Oct 2014! That is really early!!

Is that a good news? Yes and no. Yes it is cuz I can start earlier and use the warmer summer to work on it and hopefully finish it for Spring 2015. The bad news, I am very afraid the powdercoat and fiberglass panels quality issues won't be solved by then. So I don't know if I should or not accept the date... weird dilemma.

Frank, I would not worry about the powder coat unless you want a show quality frame. If you do, then pass on the powder coat and either do it yourself or have it done. If you don't need a show quality frame, issues are minor and easily addressed. I think it's worth the $400 (again, if you don't want a show quality frame).

I was just looking at fabbing that gated shifter! So cool and although retro, looks awesome.

I really, REALLY want a gated shifter too.