Racing requirements for fuel tank

[RM1SepEx]

Is anyone looking at a fuel tank inside the center of the car? The current center tunnel is unstressed, some creativity should yield a very nice capacity tank down the center... Like my old Fiero, it's a very safe location, Run all the wires down the sides of the car and the shifter on top of the tank. Use 1/8 aluminum to make up the tunnel instead of the tubing and thin aluminum.. Add a tank behind the passenger, and use an external fuel pump, allow swapping from one tank to another...

[Scargo]

I like you running them down the center.
Having had steel lines fatigue and crack, which caused a fire, I suggest you support them well and prevent possible chafing. While putting lines in a tube sound good, do they need double protection? Can they be supported in the tube and prevented from vibrating and rubbing? Lines could be isolated with rubber grommets.
You could just support both the steel lines every few feet in opposing rubber lined P-clips, which seems pretty common.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I like you running them down the center.
Having had steel lines fatigue and crack, which caused a fire, I suggest you support them well and prevent possible chafing. While putting lines in a tube sound good, do they need double protection? Can they be supported in the tube and prevented from vibrating and rubbing? Lines could be isolated with rubber grommets.
You could just support both the steel lines every few feet in opposing rubber lined P-clips, which seems pretty common.

Hi Scarco,
You asked "do they need double protection?"
Probably not, I look at as a firewall around the gas lines.

Hi Dan
The center gas tank 6"x8"x48" would be 9 gallons
Bob

[Xusia]

Thanks Chad

Xusia, are you going to use steel tubing or braided hose?
What do you think about putting the lines inside a steel 1" tube?
Bob

I haven't decided yet. On one hand, I really don't want to add more bulk to the center tunnel. On the other hand, I really don't like the idea of gas leaking inside the cockpit. Then again, would I even survive an accident that caused enough damage in that area to cause a leak? Questions...

[Xusia]

I had actually thought about putting the gas tank down the center, but thought that it might be a stupid idea. Glad to know it's been done. It would probably mean more work on the wiring harness because more wires would likely need to be extended (to go around the outside of the car). In my case it would probably also mean I need the VCP shifter, because the FFR shifter would be too high.

Interesting idea. What else is normally routed down the center tunnel that would need to be re-routed?

[RM1SepEx]

just the wires and really only the control wires, a severe diet with the lights etc down the side would do it. I'm going to shorten the shifter a couple inches. A center tank could be made a couple inches taller for more capacity and perhaps an inch or two wider depending on the seats that you use. I could also envision it being taller in the back..

The 48 inches isn't correct, it could run all the way to the rear firewall adding another foot or so to the length. I think 14 - 15 gallons would be pretty easy

[Xusia]

Using the existing external dimensions of the center tunnel (5"x6.25"), all the way back to the rear frame (55") yields a volume of 7.45 gallons (1719 cubic inches; 231 ci per gallon). Another issue I thought of that could be a problem is how to keep the gas near the pickup. With such a short, wide tank it will be harder than with a taller tank.

Between the small capacity and potential for slosh, I don't think this is the best idea for me.

[flynntuna]

Baffles could be added to prevent slosh, and more capacity could be had behind the passenger seat. Sort of a L shape, with the part behind the passenger a little taller. All this would be easier if the filler cap was also on the passenger side.

[RM1SepEx]

correct, you can also make it taller after the shifter in a track car... Xusia, we were counting on removing the framework of the tunnel and enclosing the tank with thicker aluminum like the rear bulkhead. There is no structural purpose for the current tunnel framework and it would increase your capacity quite a bit!

Between using the whole tunnel area and behind the passenger seat I think 15 gallons is possible when moving the fill to the passenger side. This leaves the entire driver's side for seat space (posts 81 and 86)

[Xusia]

My measurements were external, which assumed removal of the existing framework. 15 gallons is very likely possible if the gas tank extends behind the passenger seat. I know baffles could be used, but I just don't think they'd be completely effective. In my opinion, while I like the idea, the reality of a custom gas tank in the center tunnel poses more problems than it solves. For me, anyway...

[flynntuna]

Not to mention the extra cost to have a custom tank built. I'm sure it's not beyond the skill of some on this forum, but it sure is way past mine.
An E-Mail to Boyd Welding with a drawing and measurements can answer a lot of this. A group buy would also keep the price down somewhat I'm guessing.

[Doowop]

well, one of the problems that racers are going against is that it seems that NASA only has 2 options as far a fuel tank. You can use the stock one that came with the car, or have a fuel cell that is FIA rated.

[FFRSpec72]

well, one of the problems that racers are going against is that it seems that NASA only has 2 options as far a fuel tank. You can use the stock one that came with the car, or have a fuel cell that is FIA rated.

Not true in pratice as I know plenty of cars that don't run the stock nor an FIA certified cell

[Scargo]

Not true in pratice as I know plenty of cars that don't run the stock nor an FIA certified cell

Are you talking NASA WTW racing classes? In non-licensed classes like TT down, I don't think they care.

[FFRSpec72]

Are you talking NASA WTW racing classes? In non-licensed classes like TT down, I don't think they care.

Race classes, there are quite a few AI or CMC cars that run aluminum tanks (not cells). Also Some of the Legends cars I run with are not running cells.

[Doowop]

I should have specified, ST class for WTW racing. I am sure there are exception, but that is the way it is here locally and what is technically in the rule book.

[FFRSpec72]

I should have specified, ST class for WTW racing. I am sure there are exception, but that is the way it is here locally and what is technically in the rule book.

I must be missing something as the 2014 General Rules don't require a fuel cell (the specific class rules may require a fuel cell, if a fuel cell is used or required it has to be FIA approved), the 2014 rules for ST don't have any specific requirements relative to gas tank or fuel cell

[Scargo]

Here's a curious section in NASA rules. It pertains to HPDE cars.
11.4.21 Alcohol Injection
Tanks containing alcohol (e.g. methanol) that exceed 50% alcohol by volume should carry an FIA FT3 (or
higher) rating and be installed per fuel cell regulations found in CCR Section [Ref15.4)]. Tanks containing
50% or less alcohol by volume may use any container per the manufacturer’s instructions or recommendations.
Under all circumstances tanks or containers must be mounted in an area that is completely separated from the
driver by a bulkhead or firewall. They do not enforce this in regards to my STi hatch.There's a lot of "shoulds" and then there are "musts". Often if things aren't "stock" they defer to the CCR. What I find really odd is that among all of the shoulds for safety there is the must about appearance. 11.4.1 Appearance: "All entered vehicles must be in good condition and appearance."

Time Trial cars are subject to HPDE rules.

For ST and SU class rules about fuel cells:
They say: A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.
2. The cell must contain a bladder that is FIA FT-3 (or higher) rated. 40
3. The cell should be in a container made of at least 0.036-inch steel, 0.059-inch aluminum, or 0.125-
inch Marlex, fully surrounding the bladder.

The way I interpret this is that IF you have a non-stock fuel tank then it must meet the above rules for a FIA rated fuel cell.

[FFRSpec72]

The way I interpret this is that IF you have a non-stock fuel tank then it must meet the above rules for a FIA rated fuel cell.

I think you are out on a limb here, as a there is no definition of a "fuel cell" in the CCR or in the ST class rules. If you read the FFR class rules you will see very specific requirements for a "fuel system" and specific aspects of a fuel cell that must be followed. There are no ST class rules for a fuel cell. There are no requirements that you use a "stock" or "production" tank. I don't think the rules are well written and can be made more clear.

I will not race in a car without a FIA approved fuel cell.

[Santiago]

I don't think the worry is so much stock vs cell, simply "is it a cell?" This was the concern raised earlier. If your local tech official says you have or must have a cell then it must be certified. They are already familiar with the Challenge car, and it isn't legal for w2w without a cell. Since we would be presenting "another" FFR product to them, they may just rely on past experience by claiming any FFR car needs a cell. So pressing the argument that the supplied tank isn't a cell won't matter...IF your official just insists one is needed.

If there are non-Challenge roadsters out there running ST classes you might have a more favorable precedent on your side. And if you know of such folks it might help to ask them about their experience with tech.

Note, in none of this am I suggesting it is a good idea to race w2w without a proper cell. I am definitely with Tony on this one.

Best,
-j

[FFRSpec72]

So the answer I got from NASA NW was that the tank that FFR supplies is OEM and thus allowed, if you use another tank other than the OEM tank it must be an approved fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. So if you feel safe with racing w/o a fuel cell then you need to use the FFR supplied tank otherwise the Boyd or other tanks will not be accepted as it must be a fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. I bet NASA keeps a close eye on this since this car is new.

[SixStar]

So the answer I got from NASA NW was that the tank that FFR supplies is OEM and thus allowed, if you use another tank other than the OEM tank it must be an approved fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. So if you feel safe with racing w/o a fuel cell then you need to use the FFR supplied tank otherwise the Boyd or other tanks will not be accepted as it must be a fuel cell that meets NASA requirements. I bet NASA keeps a close eye on this since this car is new.

This is the same answer I got. Mainly because it meets the letter of the rules. It's a little scary that wording allows the use of a stamped steel Chinese tank vs. a welded aluminum just because that's what comes with the kit but oh well.

[Santiago]

Such is the nature of rules sometimes. Still, good info to know should an 818 appear on grid for tech -thanks Tony.

I would LOVE to see one at an event this year. Any guys running NASA-Midwest or Great Lakes region events?

Best,
-j

[Xusia]

How would they know what tank FFR supplies? Just sayin...

[wleehendrick]

That's just silly. I understand it meets the letter of the rules, but applying to a kit car is inappropriate. It won't affect me, since the most I'll do with my S is autox, track days, etc... and I'm comfortable doing so with my Boyd tank, but I had to vent. This actually encourages a less safe solution!

[Scargo]

This is the same answer I got. Mainly because it meets the letter of the rules. It's a little scary that wording allows the use of a stamped steel Chinese tank vs. a welded aluminum just because that's what comes with the kit but oh well.

stamped steel Chinese tank... Really? That's what come with 818s?

[FFRSpec72]

I really think that FFR needs to address this issue and work with Fuel Safe or other companies to actually create a fuel cell for the 818, so Dave PLEASE work this out and get us a fuel cell ASAP as if you are going to produce a race car please make sure it has the proper parts.

[Bill Waters]

Does anybody know what the plans are from FFR? I was under the impression that there was a fuel cel in process.

If they don't, I will have to order a custom one fairly soon.

Bill

[FFRSpec72]

I called FFR and sent a note to them about a fuel cell, I have also asked for the schematic for their existing hot rod tank so I can get someone started on a fuel cell, I also asked again if they were working on a fuel cell, no answer yet. I just find this a very sad situation to be in at this point in time. I guess Dave does not read these posts and has other things to do.

[Santiago]

Given the number of posts in all these threads, my guess is that you're better off posting a question in the "Ask a Factory Five Tech" forum. Somebody at FFR is definitely going to be checking those posts.

[Scargo]

I'd like to go back to the idea of the fuel tank being in the center. How many cars have a tank in this location? Usually, there is a metal skin or partition separating the tank from the passenger compartment. NASA rules mention this and there are some requirements regarding partitions. In this tunnel design, nor the stock design, do I see anything to keep the fuel out of the passenger compartment. Leakage or a rupture could well mean that the fuel would stay in the passenger compartment. Could a long, skinny tank be subject to torsional stress?

This makes me think more about the stock tank. You have a tank, in the passenger compartment, covered by an unsealed plate, yet the tank is sealed in from below, behind and on the sides. Am I wrong about this?
In a serious rear-end collision what happens to the tank and the fuel? The primary exhaust is inches from the fuel.
I am glad I will be using a fuel cell and that it will be positioned significantly forward.

[RM1SepEx]

You can cover a center tank with 1/8 aluminum bolted through the steel floor. You add some slots or holes under the tank so if it is compromised fuel goes under the floor vs into the car, just like the stock tank has slots. Making a fuel cell through the center should be easy, if you don't need a passenger seat, make it wider for more capacity.

[FFRSpec72]

I'd like to go back to the idea of the fuel tank being in the center.

So my challenge car the fuel cell is fully exposed on 3 sides an a thin aluminum between the fuel cell and the back of my seat. My cell is protected by a full cage/frame though

[FFRSpec72]

So this is what Harmon Racing cells had to say, so I'm still waiting for the schematics from FFR, so figure $1500, which is not bad for FIA cell

Thank you for contacting Harmon Racing Cells. We can make any shape or size you need. From what you describe, it would be about 12 gallons a complete unit with a tunnel and pickups runs about $1300.00 and a sending unit another $240. If you want to give me the location of the tunnel I can get you a quote and we can go from there.


Can someone with a Boyd tank give me the exact dimensions and placements of the pickup, sender, fuel pump and inlet as I'm trying to get a fuel cell made and FFR is useless so far ?

[FFRSpec72]

I have a design and quote from Harmon on a FIA fuel cell see http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l-Design-Quote