Racing requirements for fuel tank

[Bill Waters]

Does anyone know what the NASA safety rules require as far as fuel tanks in STR1? I don't find any entry specifying the requirement for fuel cells with foam and /or bladder after a careful review.

Thanks

[Santiago]

Hi Bill,

You'll find it in Section 15 of the CCR (Club Codes and Regulations). The CCR is the "master rule set" that governs all NASA competition classes. Each individual class has supplemental rules, but these often defer back to the CCR. You can find it online here: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules

As for fuel cells, these are my two big take-aways. First, not every class requires them. However...and there's always a "however"...IF you have one (regardless of whether or not your class requires them), then you must adhere to the CCR requirements to pass tech. The other big point to note is that some fuel cells that are SCCA approved will not pass tech with NASA (I think the reasoning here is that some cells that the SCCA approves are for forms of racing that NASA doesn't sanction, so there's an inherent lack of a 1:1 match with safety concerns across the two organizations). Anyway, here's Section 15:

15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.

A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.

1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.
2. The cell must contain a bladder that is FIA FT-3 (or higher) rated.
3. The cell should be in a container made of at least 0.036-inch steel, 0.059-inch aluminum, or 0.125-inch Marlex, fully surrounding the bladder.
4. Internal foam baffling should be installed, as per FIA FT3-1999 (or higher).
5. The filler cap, line, vents hoses, etc. should be designed so that no fuel will escape if the car is partially or totally inverted.
6. There should be a small drain hole in the outside box to purge fuel trapped between the bladder and the box.
7. The competitor is responsible for ensuring that the cell, bladder, and components are installed, maintained, and replaced per the manufacturer’s instructions and in accordance with applicable sections of the CCR.
8. The bladder has a date of manufacture and serial number. The competitor is responsible to note this in the front of the vehicle logbook.
9. Bladders older than 5 years should not be used.
10. The competitor is responsible for showing proof of the age of the bladder. It is highly recommended that the receipt for the purchase of the bladder (or entire cell) be stored with the Vehicle Logbook.

15.4.1 Installation
Reinforcements may be added to aid in the installation of the cell, but they shall not attach to the roll cage. Floor structure may be modified to aid in the installation of the cell. Steel location strapping is strongly recommended to keep the fuel cell from dislocating in a crash. Installing a fuel cell that hangs significantly close to the ground or one that is mounted closest to the rear of the vehicle, even if the installation meets with these rules, may be deemed unsafe and therefore excluded from competition.

15.4.2 Rotary-molded cells
Rotary-molded cells are not allowed unless the bladder meets the current FIA FT3 specifications and carries the current FIA FT3 standard certification mark, label, or stamp. Most or all JAZ and RCI brand cells are examples of rotary-molded cells that do not carry such ratings. [Notes: A good fuel cell is made by companies such as ATL or Fuel Safe (other than their entry level models), and should cost $600 or more. Beware of inexpensive “SCCA APPROVED” cells. While SCCA is a fine organization, the stamp of approval found on some safety items may pertain to other forms of racing, and may not be consistent with these rules. Consult an expert before purchase.]

15.4.3 Fuel Cell for Alternative Liquid Fuels
According to leading manufacturers of fuel cells, there is no problem putting alternative fuels into a fuel cell made for gasoline. However, if the cell was previously used for a different fuel, such as gasoline, the bladder should be rinsed, and the foam should be changed. The same is true when switching from an alternative fuel back to gasoline.

Happy motoring!
Best,
-j

[C.Plavan]

I'm almost to the point where I need to help design a 818R FIA GT3 spec fuel cell. Stay tuned.

[Santiago]

Tuned indeed!! I think there are more than a couple of us who would be very interested in such an item.

[FFRSpec72]

You don't need a fuel cell, most folks run w/o them since there are restrictions once you go to a fuel cell, I run one and I will not race a car w/o one. It would be nice to have a cell that can do an enduro.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Gents:

Santiago - I read the section you attached in the NASA rules prior to posting (I appreciate your taking the time to include them). However, the CCR also notes that each class stipulates whether a fuel cell is required. Yet the section specifying ST-and STR1 requirements simply doesn't mention fuel tank or cell requirements. Does that mean there is no specific requirement. Like Tony, I'd be inclined to run one, but the paradoxically punitive rules give me pause.

Anyway, my 818R ships the week of December 14, and I have had them exclude the fuel tank and related parts from my kit, thinking I would get a fuel cell appropriate for the 818. I was considering the tank from Boyd's, but I don't believe that, without internal bladed, it would pass muster with NASA or SCCA.

Do any of you guys know what the other 818R builders plan - I don't recall seeing anyone mention it?

Thanks, Bill

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Gents:

Santiago - I read the section you attached in the NASA rules prior to posting (I appreciate your taking the time to include them). However, the CCR also notes that each class stipulates whether a fuel cell is required. Yet the section specifying ST-and STR1 requirements simply doesn't mention fuel tank or cell requirements. Does that mean there is no specific requirement. Like Tony, I'd be inclined to run one, but the paradoxically punitive rules give me pause.

Anyway, my 818R ships the week of December 14, and I have had them exclude the fuel tank and related parts from my kit, thinking I would get a fuel cell appropriate for the 818. I was considering the tank from Boyd's, but I don't believe that, without an internal bladdr, it would pass muster with NASA or SCCA.

Do any of you guys know what the other 818R builders plan - I don't recall seeing anyone mention it?

Thanks, Bill

[FFRSpec72]

Anyway, my 818R ships the week of December 14, and I have had them exclude the fuel tank and related parts from my kit, thinking I would get a fuel cell appropriate for the 818. I was considering the tank from Boyd's, but I don't believe that, without internal bladed, it would pass muster with NASA or SCCA.

So the Boyd tank does not have foam or a slosh tank, not sure I would spend the $$$, I know that FFR is working on a proper fuel cell.

[Bill Waters]

Tony - FFR now includes with the R a fuel tank which fits behind the driver & passenger. It's volume is the subject of a few threads here, but I think it's about 18 or 20 gallons.

I favored the Boyd's because it's constructed of 1/8 inch sheet aluminum, is (by appearances) very well made, includes a fuel pump, has internal baffles and holds 10 gallons of fuel. Though you can get an ATL or other fuel cell reasonably priced, I don't think we'll find one custom built that is. As stout as the Boyd's is, I may just run that.

The tech with whom I finalized my order on Wednesday was not aware of any fuel cell plans.

Bill

[Bill Waters]

Tony - FFR now includes with the R a fuel tank which fits behind the driver & passenger. It's volume is the subject of a few threads here, but I think it's about 18 or 20 gallons.

I favored the Boyd's because it's constructed of 1/8 inch sheet aluminum, is (by appearances) very well made, includes a fuel pump, has internal baffles and holds 10 gallons of fuel. Though you can get an ATL or other fuel cell reasonably priced, I don't think we'll find one custom built that is. As stout as the Boyd's is, I may just run that.

The tech with whom I finalized my order on Wednesday was not aware of any fuel cell plans, though I, too, had thought they were planning one.

Bill

[Mitch Wright]

Happy Thanksgiving

Bill, my car arrives in August and I go back and forth on installing a cell and using the steel tank the chassis comes with. I look forward to seeing what direction you and others end up going.

[Santiago]

Hey Bill,

As I read the rules, the CCR clearly supersedes any class rule when it comes to the installation of a fuel cell. Per 15.4: "All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules" (emph. added). So the ST rules don't require it, and that's fine if you've got an OEM car running a stock fuel tank (which is how many cars in the ST classes run). However, if you decide NOT to run that OEM tank and you put in a fuel cell, then 15.4 goes into effect. This is true regardless of what car you're running.

The 818 is likely going to need to be petitioned on this matter. Since we don't have an actual OEM-style tank that would fit the spirit of the ST rules, the tech officials are just as likely to rule that the tank FFR provides is or is not a fuel cell. If they rule it's a fuel cell, then it must comply with the CCR rules (again, regardless of the fact that the ST rules don't require one). I think the matter needs to be brought up to the national ST director for review. You don't want to show up to your local regional event only to get surprised by how that particular tech official sees the tank your running. Better to have a direct ruling from the top to show him/her that you're running a legal cell.

If I'm not mistaken, the Challenge car has to run a fuel cell that meets the CCR requirements. They won't allow the standard FFR fuel tank to pass tech (NASA has been there, seen that, and made their ruling). Since that's a fairly obvious precedent, I'd be surprised if they made a different call for the 818R. If you're planning on running a fuel cell in the 818R, I'd just get comfy with the idea it's going to have to be one that'll pass the CCR requirements.

Last, let's say that the national ST director rules in favor of making the FFR fuel tank legal as it's shipped. That likely means you're either running that tank or a fuel cell that'll pass CCR requirements; which in turn means you would NOT be able to legally run the Boyd tank under any circumstance (as it is a non-"OEM" tank and a non-legal cell).

Best,
-john

[Sgt.Gator]

Can someone post the dimensions and a picture of the FF "Stock" fuel tank? There are two manufacturers of them locally and if we can't find one that's ready made near those dimensions I'll contact them and see if we can get a batch run.
Thanks!

[Bill Waters]

John - you offer a very clear- headed discussion - thanks. I think the best thing to do is to install a fuel cell which passes all criteria. Do you know how fuel cells are approved (i.e., do manufacturers have to submit samples for testing/inspection, or can individuals do so)?

Sgt.Gator- depending on your goals, you may wish to get the dimension of the Boyd's tank, since the stock one is (I believe) an 18 gallon unit. The Boyd's is 10. I guess the former would be desirable if you were running enduros. See below.

Another thread here stated that Boyd's would not be producing fuel cells. I called them to discuss that, but they are closed until Monday.

Since Boyd's won't be doing them, and since their tank seems ideal otherwise, does anyone out there know the exact dimensions of that tank (so I can have one made by a shop which makes cells, such as ATL)?

Thanks

[C.Plavan]

IMHO I would never run an 818 (R or S) without a proper fuel cell.

Lets see...... mid engine, no bumper, and motor/hot headers inches from fuel tank. No brainer for me. Like I stated, there will be proper fuel cell options available in a month or so- I'm personally involved since I want to be safe :P.

[Santiago]

Hey Bill,

Fuel cell certification has to go through the relevant testing organizations. For general safety items, the two organizations are's SFI and FIA, with the later doing the needed testing on fuel cells. A manufacturer would have to submit their cells to the FIA and have their production line approved. My understanding is that it's a fairly rigorous process in which those samples are tortured. The full requirements are publicly available on FIA's site, so someone like Boyd knows up front what it would take for his tanks to pass. From what I've seen of his tanks, they won't without significant changes (i.e. a bladder is needed or some other approved foam used). I believe his are "just" very-nicely welded up tanks. [No disrespect meant, he's just offering up product meant for a whole different animal/consumer.]

At any rate, it's definitely out of our hands. We just get the blessed stickers to prove certification, and those are delivered to the manufacturer direct from FIA (so their coveted). I've never bought an approved fuel cell, so I'm not sure, but I'd assume they come with stickers already on them (and they're otherwise documented/advertised as having passed certification requirements).

Best,
-john

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, John, Chad;

The reason I'm so persistent on this topic is that I have the same concerns succinctly outlined by Chad above. Reluctant to build my 818 without a cell. I was, after re-reviewing Chad's build site, going to post an inquiry to him inquiring about his stated plans for a Fuel Safe cell; now I know the full story. Very glad to know you are working with a company to develop one.

Thanks,
Bill

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad, if you're working with Fuel Safe, they are only a few minutes from my house if I can help in any way I'd be glad to.
Also Pyrotect is very close by too. http://www.pyrotect.com/product.php?...&cat=38&page=1

Like you, I would not go on track, or even on street, without a real fuel cell in this car. There are a lot of thermal and electrical ignition sources next to the tank.

[C.Plavan]

Just giving you guys a heads up. I'm going for a basic Fuel Safe fuel cell in the passenger area. When taking measurements, I did not feel safe with a fuel cell in the 818 location. The back end is really "squishy" with no bumpers. Its crazy to say, but I feel safer with the fuel cell riding shotgun with me. So that is where I am going to be mounting it.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Chad;

I am at the point of trying to get some measurements and get with one of the companies to construct a fuel cell for placement behind the driver (I would like to run a passenger seat); however, that may end up being impractical. It would probably be easy to use an existing, stock-item cell from ATL or another company to run in the passenger location.

Does anyone have any updated information regarding fuel cells for the 818R?


Bill

[ritzman5]

I have not ordered my 818s, and have not seen one. is it not possible to put fuel tank/ cell between front tires? its pretty safe there and should be relatively easy to male fire proof bulk head to seal from drivers compartment. any thoughts on that idea? that would make it easy to find cell with that meet all needs, FIA and size.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I have not ordered my 818s, and have not seen one. is it not possible to put fuel tank/ cell between front tires? its pretty safe there and should be relatively easy to male fire proof bulk head to seal from drivers compartment. any thoughts on that idea? that would make it easy to find cell with that meet all needs, FIA and size.

At least 2 of us are going to put the tank in front. A 15x20x12" should give us about 11 gallons. You will have to cut to get it in.
BobP1040708s.jpg

[Santiago]

Well hell Chad, I hoped you would have had all this sorted out by the time I did my build. Bill, that puts you up on plate buddy! =)
Having a passenger seat for me is very important (I instruct, so taking students out will be mandatory duty for this car).

Everyone has their own sense of the margin of safety they're willing to tolerate, so I understand. Personally I think with an appropriate engine-side firewall and a thin enough tank (if you can fit it forward enough and still have leg-room), fuel should be safe. That would put in place an aluminum sheet (something like 0.90" thick), steel square tubes, 1"-2" of open space, and an aluminum (or steel) can surrounding the bladder as protection. I'm good with that, not so good with putting 50-70 lbs of varying weight on the nose.

I will say I planned on running a small fire suppression unit dedicated for the fuel cell chamber (separate from the engine/cockpit system). And ever since you brought up the rear bumper area I've been thinking about ways to incorporate a rear bumper bar. We'll get there.

If there was room I'd run it straight down the center, but I don't think we've got more than 6-7" width between the seats and that would make for a pretty tall 12-gallon cell.

Best,
-j

[longislandwrx]

I'm also interested in safety but want to maintain my passenger seat.

Sgt. Gator Do you have a stock 818 tank? Would you be able to bring one over to them and see what it would take to make it safer/legal? I would be willing to pay one of these guys that has an extra to ship it to your house if you don't have one.

if you're working with Fuel Safe, they are only a few minutes from my house if I can help in any way I'd be glad to.

[Bill Waters]

You may be correct, John; my 818 was loaded onto Stewart Transport today! But I suspect the approach suggested by longisland will be the best route, if Sgt. Gator or others can do what he is requesting. I deleted the fuel system from my order, but maybe should have considered otherwise, since then I would have a template for ATL or Fuel SAfe to use.

I, too, would be hesitant to put the variable weight in the front. at this point, the fuel cell issue has the potential to delay my build more than any other feature, though I am sure that many factors will vie for that title before I'm done.

Bill

[C.Plavan]

I have variable weight in the front of my 911 racer all the time. But Then again, I have static weight in the rear. With the 911, if I want it to handle better, I run it with more gas (up front).

We wont know the true weight distribution until someone tries it out. I have scales, but I have no desire to put the tank up front. Like I said earlier, It's riding shotgun.

Call and talk to this shop. This is where I did some preliminary research a few months ago.


http://harmonracingcells.com/Tapered_End.html

[D Clary]

I don't know that I'm that big a fan of the cell riding shotgun. I would rather put it between two firewalls with a good fire system. The middle of the car seems protected enough.

[Santiago]

Wait, this is interesting:

Harmon's 12 gallon Fuel Cell (part #CUTE12) is 36" long x 10" high x 10" wide (only 7" wide at the top). Can somebody check that fitment for me (I don't have a chassis yet )? I guess the key measurement is the width - is there 10" of width in the mounting platform as it is delivered by FFR?

Thanks for posting this Chad!

Best,
-john

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Wait, this is interesting:

Harmon's 12 gallon Fuel Cell (part #CUTE12) is 36" long x 10" high x 10" wide (only 7" wide at the top). Can somebody check that fitment for me (I don't have a chassis yet )? I guess the key measurement is the width - is there 10" of width in the mounting platform as it is delivered by FFR?

Thanks for posting this Chad!

Best,
-john

John
The floor for the gas tank is 11" x 47"
The FFR firewall has a lip that takes up the front 1.5", but you can design that differently.
Big question is, Will you have enough leg room moving the firewall forward.
Bob

[Santiago]

Thank You Bob!
That's excellent news.

No worries about the leg room. I'm only 5'7" so no wookie requirements here. Now I just need to sort out some details...like seeing if Harmon can set one up that's compatible with e85.

-j

[D Clary]

That sounds promising does it have provisions for fuel pump and gauge, do they have a web site?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That sounds promising does it have provisions for fuel pump and gauge, do they have a web site?

http://harmonracingcells.com/Tapered_End.html

[Scargo]

Have I missed something? There is this from the rules:
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.

The FFR racer had the fuel cell in the passenger seat area. There was no bulkhead. NASA allowed this.

[Santiago]

Well, saying "NASA" allowed this is a bit off the mark. It's safer to say that at least one NASA tech-official in at least one region gave it a pass...or it was he that "missed this."

Scargo you're right that this shouldn't be allowed by the rules, and any tech inspector would easily be in the rights to deny passing the inspection if they wanted to do so. There are a number of things that are "at the discretion of the official" and FFR does has a long history with the organization, so...who knows.

Of course, for those interested in that position you could still put the tank in the passenger side legally, you just need to cover it. =)

Best,
-j

[Bob_n_Cincy]

looks like the 818R tank is covered.

[D Clary]

I just look like the bladder is covered. the filler is screwed to the top of it inside the car. I wouldn't want to try that one through tech. I think to be legal it would have to be completely covered to be considered completely separated from the driver.

[Santiago]

Man, that really is flirting with the intent vs. letter of the rules. Looks like they've got the tank, pump, and vent lines covered...maybe the "filler neck hose" is covered (but I don't think it is even by the letter of the rule).

Still, I'm with Clary on this one. This doesn't seem like an appropriate way to pass tech. Granted, if you're only running sprint races you're not coming in for refueling, but still. If there's an incident and the filler/cap is damaged within the "cell chamber," then in this configuration the driver compartment is automatically exposed. That doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the regulation. The driver is supposed to be isolated from damage to any part of the fuel system.

-j

[C.Plavan]

Always error on the side of safety. One conversation with the Tech person about the fuel cell being in the passenger area, then showing them the original position, they will understand. The passenger area is so much more robust for protection/safety. If they don't understand, I would seriously question their credentials.

I will have it boxed up, but I will have an angled fill plate that a hose will attach. Then you fill it from the outside like the S with a flush cap.

[D Clary]

Sorry but I don't see the vulnerability in the stock location with a fuel cell with front and rear firewalls.

[C.Plavan]

Sorry but I don't see the vulnerability in the stock location with a fuel cell with front and rear firewalls.

Once you actually get your chassis, and are actually able to look at it, you may change your tune.

Not saying the firewall route would not work, but also take into consideration the 818 design does not drop the trans in the event of bad rear crash. Even old 1970's 914's have this built in. Not to mention the closest thing to a bumper IS the transmission in the 818.

I feel safer with it protected by the cage with possible better weight balance as a plus.

Everyone has different ideas on safety, but I am the one driving my car. I'll error on the side of safety..... If you want to call it that.