What's next for Factory Five?

[dagall]

Is there another car in development? GT40 or something else? Curious, I am wrapping up my second build, which is a 33, and wondered if there was something new that I would need to save my pennies for.

[tirod]

Right now many of us are waiting for the 818 Coupe. Think, mini GTM. With near all-weather protection, it would enable the builder to drive the car in three and a half seasons, like the Daytona.

After that, it's likely still in research. Kits are driveline based, it has to be popular, and parts easily obtainable. Starting there, I'm thinking something based on the Ecoboost could be possible. The issue is, what kind of car?

I'd be happy with a AWD Jeep looking kit if the portal axle boxes were part of it. Naturally aspirated Subaru AWD with simple ladder frame, molded body, tail gate, fold down windshield, and 16" of real ground clearance. The Mopar conversions on a Wrangler allow running 40" tires.

If it uses a CJ3 spec top that obstacle is overcome, the styling could be classic but not a direct copy. The grille? They lost that argument in court, Jeep doesn't have a lock on the grille. (Nobody wants more lawsuits, tho.)

Think about F5's product line - race car, race car, race car, race car, hot rod, race car. Off road is due, spread your market offering and get into a huge fan base of recreational users who are already chopping up vintage rigs that are getting rarer - so much so the aftermarket offers frames and molded bodies for retro builders . . .

[jrichards]

Here's my vote. Please finish and send my coupe before doing anything else. This wait is killing me! Then develop a GT40. Keep it old school and keep it Ford.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You won't be seeing a GT40; thats what the GTM was going to be before the lawsuits. As for the next all new model that is not an extension or derivitive of something already in production think Trophy Truck...

Jeff

[jrichards]

I really like Tirod's Jeep idea (I might be partial - I've owned/built 5). Parts for old CJ's are widely available and Jeeps can be customized in so many ways, which is part of the FFR mantra. Plus they are simple and fun to use.

[Jester]

My vote is for a Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe incorporating the mods from "Roxanne" (Hankl's build - well worth a look if you have not seen it - stretched frame, longer cabin & doors) which FFR was following closely but with roll up windows glass windows. Hopefully they are already on this???

[RM1SepEx]

Revision of the Spyder, then a truck

[myjones]

I bet Dave Smith learned a long time ago to always put down the coffee cup before opening this kind of thread. ;>)
Knowing what's next and then seeing what we predict and what we ask for has to make him feel everything from great pride to extreme amusement

What he's really producing is an erector set for fulfilling a dream. We all put it together a little differently and often criticize what comes in the box
but no matter which parts list it comes with the dream is always carefully packed in each kit.
Well done Dave

Dale
Hemi33

[Mechie3]

I'd like to see a formula car or lemans prototype like car.

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

Dave has invested a ton of money into the 818, I would expect they will revise and possibly expand the 818 before anything really new. They've delivered 100 kits so far, at 10K each, that's a million dollars GROSS. They probably spent several million (if not more) to develop the 818. Even if they are making a $2k per 'car' net profit, it will take sales of a thousand 818s to pay back a 2 million dollar development cost (if it was that low). Dave has to make a profit first. He wants the company to grow as much as the rest of us do, but he can't just bounce from one new project to another.

The orders for the 818 are probably into 2015 now. I think the sales of them will increase as more and more people find out about them. There are less than 5 completed cars that we know of. Not many people have seen them on the street or on the track yet. They are going to have to increase production capacity which is yet another significant investment.

Expanding too fast and borrowing too much has killed a lot of businesses.

[indiana818]

i don't know how many of you have seen ford's new race engine ( 3 cylinder) it is their motor of the future. they ran it in Germany in an f1 style car . Look at the youtube video. It will be a great motor for someones kit project. Probably my next attempt after the 818s
kerry

[mrmustang]

Dave has invested a ton of money into the 818, I would expect they will revise and possibly expand the 818 before anything really new. They've delivered 100 kits so far, at 10K each, that's a million dollars GROSS. They probably spent several million (if not more) to develop the 818. Even if they are making a $2k per 'car' net profit, it will take sales of a thousand 818s to pay back a 2 million dollar development cost (if it was that low). Dave has to make a profit first. He wants the company to grow as much as the rest of us do, but he can't just bounce from one new project to another.

The orders for the 818 are probably into 2015 now. I think the sales of them will increase as more and more people find out about them. There are less than 5 completed cars that we know of. Not many people have seen them on the street or on the track yet. They are going to have to increase production capacity which is yet another significant investment.

Expanding too fast and borrowing too much has killed a lot of businesses.

You might be very surprised at what comes out of FFR this year


Da Bunnies know....

Bill S.

[RM1SepEx]

Dave has invested a ton of money into the 818, I would expect they will revise and possibly expand the 818 before anything really new. They've delivered 100 kits so far, at 10K each, that's a million dollars GROSS. They probably spent several million (if not more) to develop the 818. Even if they are making a $2k per 'car' net profit, it will take sales of a thousand 818s to pay back a 2 million dollar development cost (if it was that low). Dave has to make a profit first. He wants the company to grow as much as the rest of us do, but he can't just bounce from one new project to another.

The orders for the 818 are probably into 2015 now. I think the sales of them will increase as more and more people find out about them. There are less than 5 completed cars that we know of. Not many people have seen them on the street or on the track yet. They are going to have to increase production capacity which is yet another significant investment.

Expanding too fast and borrowing too much has killed a lot of businesses.

I think your numbers are off by a huge amt... His development costs might be close, however his profit per car have to be much higher. As a small business owner/MFG I can assure you that you don't have a product unless you can double or triple your money on each unit sold... His equipment is amortized over years so the gross amount isn't as important as the actual effect on cash flow (payments) and right now capital is cheap and with his customer support I'd loan Dave my money at a good rate, FFR is an excellent candidate for a loan.

With absolutely no clue to his actual expenses I'd be surprised if a 818 kit actually cost FFR more than $3,000 - $3,500 and it should be less than $3,000

I expect he will try to do both... hard top and other "extras" to fill out the 818 line as well as looking into other products to expand the line. All of his existing products appear very healthy, the GTM may be the only minimally profitable offering (lower volume increases parts costs) but it is needed as a "halo" offering

They have mentioned a desire to look at the eco-boost engines for a high mileage 818 coupe/hard top

[flynntuna]

From reading the tea leaves on their face book page, I'd guess a truck version of the 33 or a trophy truck. The hard top/coupe version of the 818 was all part of that idea (swatch watch) .

[Kalstar]

You might be very surprised at what comes out of FFR this year


Da Bunnies know....

Bill S.

X2. Hoping a retro truck.

As for R&D I would guess 300k and I think the 2k per car net profit is accurate. The profit is in the extras. I would say 150 cars would be break even (all purely a guess though).

[cobraguy13]

You keep talking of a Jeep, how about the old school Bronco body design? Truck/SUV/4 wheeling fun. Hard top or soft top. Just food for thought.

[Robert Andrew]

You are way off the mark on production costs. If FFR is netting over 10% per car with some R&D, tooling, molds, and programming amortization, plus general, sales, and administrative expenses, I would be very, very surprised. When you look at the quality, engineering, attention to detail, and complete nature of their cars, which has been totally responsible for their success, there is no way they are making the
insane profits you have suggested. I'm not aware of any business that has a cost of goods, or net operating cost of 15% of their selling price. I have been a partner in a Cobra kit manufacturer, and we never realized over 3% net. It is a very competitive business, like most other businesses. I commend FFR for their excellence and they earn everything they make.

[Vman7]

'33 Pickup, for those who think it might be a 33 truck.

This is something I have been working on, still has a lot to be done on it. The windshield visor is an option.



You can following progress on the design here.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...d-Design-Ideas

David

[Mechie3]

I'm not aware of any business that has a cost of goods, or net operating cost of 15% of their selling price.

Maybe not the kit car business. A survey of small businesses with $2m in sales showed a wood mfg co having a profit margin of 15%. Medical supply co of the same size was 27%, and computer and electronics businesses realized a 54% profit margin. Its all about business efficiency and the ability to command a premium based on brand reputation or the ability of your product to compete (or inability of others to compete against you).

[wolfhound]

It will be a work of art, whether a new car or upgrades . . . FFR rules

[tirod]

Agreed, it will likely be evolutionary, not revolutionary. A 818 Coupe and '33 truck are all logical extensions.

Then again, something clicked and I saw "motorcycle kit."

[Plebeian]

I think they are going to have a hard enough time keeping up with their current orders. Congrats to them on the successful debut of the 818.

If I had a wish list it would be to see them improve the body standards of their other offerings (such as the GTM and 65 Coupe) to equal the 818, where you could simply install the body on the chassis and drive. I realize this could be very expensive though. Cheers.

[jrichards]

I'm curious as to why that is expensive. When I bought my current boat I was able to design the colors and then went to the factory and went through a tour of how they spray the fiberglass hull into a mold. Why can't ffr bodies be made the same way?

[mrmustang]

I'm curious as to why that is expensive. When I bought my current boat I was able to design the colors and then went to the factory and went through a tour of how they spray the fiberglass hull into a mold. Why can't ffr bodies be made the same way?

Costs are the major factor.......Volume is the second............


Bill S.

[Carlos C]

Back in 2001, FFR was developing a GT40 kit, based on the established CAV model. They even had a completely built kit, when Shelby decided to sue FFR. This project was killed, and we won't see it come back, especially since Dave wants to start moving into all-original designs. As Jeff Kleiner stated, that project was turned into the GTM. If you carefully look at the GTM schematics presented on one of the older DVDs (still waiting on the new one), you'll see the outline of the GT40 drawn over it.

I've tried to convince Dave to bring the Spyder GT back, but that's also unlikely to happen. That was Mark's project, which was never completed, due in part to Mark leaving the company. Hence the lack of a full interior, top, or windows. I'd love to see this come back, as it was the kit I had chosen to build back in '03. I had even sent Dave my design of the vehicle's nose (so it wouldn't look like the Coupe from the front), and a soft top.

A truck variation of the '33 is interesting, but the company had advertised three different body shapes to go on the 818 frame. If they still plan on this, then I'd assume that this is what they're working on. After all, this is the vehicle FFR wants to represent the company in the near future, by making it an international kit.

I've heard the rumors of a motorcycle kit. And although I'm a biker who'd love to see this happen, I've seen many bike kit companies go bankrupt. Unfortunately, there's not a big market for building a kit bike. Of course, FFR is a different kind of manufacturing breed, so if anyone can make that market successful, it is FFR. I'd definitely buy one.

I personally don't think that they'll put much more effort into the Coupe. Although I just ordered this kit, I know that it sells the least amount. The GTM just got a major revision, and it's also their most expensive kit to manufacture and sell, so I don't think that this one will get their immediate attention now.

I remember how excited I was being one of the first group of people to see the '33 body and frame, while the kit was still being developed. I'd love to see what they have cooking now, but I doubt it is a new kit. Nevertheless, a revival of the Spyder GT still gets my vote. Just my two cents.

Carlos

[flynntuna]

I'm curious as to why that is expensive. When I bought my current boat I was able to design the colors and then went to the factory and went through a tour of how they spray the fiberglass hull into a mold. Why can't ffr bodies be made the same way?

Using a fiberglass chopper gun may be easier, but it also results in a much heavier end product.

[skullandbones]

FFR has a lot on their plate. If they ramp up the 818 production and develop the variations such as a hard top for the roadster and a targa version that would be enough to carry them thru 2014 SEMA. The 818 will still be hot next SEMA season (especially with the cars hitting the road and the tracks). Then FFR will have a little breathing room to do something really special for 2015 SEMA. They are also ramping up their expertise level on the molding and finishing so that will also get better and better! Good luck, Dave and FFR. My guess is small track truck with one of those sweet FFR racing chassis!

WEK.

[Robert Andrew]

The 33 pickup design is awesome. It's stance is perfect, the top looks great, and the bed design works really well with the body lines. Great design. Form and function. I think it would be very complimentary to the 33 Hotrod, and a good seller.

[dagall]

I built a Mark I and now a 33. I really miss the perky butt Roadster. I am not crazy about the Mark IV body, so I would like to see another revision of that. While it was splashed from 198, the wheel well opening on that body are terrible. I like the 818, but I would do another Roadster if the body was better.

[meganuke]

I love the '33 Pickup! Make the bed and maybe the wheelbase just a little bit longer, then TAKE MY MONEY!!!!

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

I love the '33 Pickup! Make the bed and maybe the wheelbase just a little bit longer, then TAKE MY MONEY!!!!

I agree! It needs a longer wheelbase and a bigger bed. Of course, if they're going to do that why not stretch the interior of the cab too. Give us some storage room behind the seats.

I would love to see a 4-door version of the 33. That would be a killer!

[LesMurray]

And not one mention of a slabside-FIA 289?

[riptide motorsport]

I would love to see them come out with a TRex kit for around $6000. It would be dominant product IMHO....steven

[mrmustang]

And not one mention of a slabside-FIA 289?

Da Bunnies have no comment




Bill S.

[RM1SepEx]

I would love to see them come out with a TRex kit for around $6000. It would be dominant product IMHO....steven

Yes, a motorcycle engine reverse trike would be a great product!

I'd love to see the 33 HR used as a pickup, it would need an extended wheelbase and should be also buildable as a sedan delivery

[Arrowhead]

Dave kind of summarizes their philosophy in this post. YMMV

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post131338

[mrmustang]

And not one mention of a slabside-FIA 289?

Sure looks like a modified MK IV chassis in the background. Wonder what that weber carb'd engine might be going in to

Attachment 25105

[Rich]

I'd love a slab-side MkIV car! That would be such a treat.
I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

[myjones]

It will be a work of art, whether a new car or upgrades . . . FFR rules

You were right it is a "work of art" that was done for Hot Rod Magazine and will be built by FF


I love the tall rear tires in the rendering and to pull that off Jim S. will surely have to rework the rear clip on
the frame to get that stance. I'm guessing it's an IRS with a slightly longer wheelbase to make the fenders work
with that really tall tire.
DB

[Raceral]

So Bill, why are you selling everything.