OEM Brake upgrades

[Canadian818]

While I had my heart set on wilwoods, I've decided to use the OEM brakes until such time that I NEED more brakes or I have money to burn. Perhaps those members who have been racing subarus can chime in.

SS lines are a must IMO
Any aftermarket slotted rotors?
What fluid?
What pads for street/race? What about swapping pads for the track?

I'll do some research tonight, but wanted to post up before I forgot

[StatGSR]

What factory brakes are your running? i would expect that with the right pad combo, you will never need more brake than the factory units could supply.

Pro Tip, don't bother with slotted rotors, plain rotors work just fine and wont wear pads as quickly. I would recommend Centric rotors with the black coating on the hats.
Fluid, I would say ATE super blue, but that has been discontinued, so i would go with ATE Type 200 which is the same fluid, just a normal gold color.
Almost any good track pad will be a bit of a compromise on the street, nothing wrong with swapping pads for a track day. Some pads that "might" work well enough on the track and still work on the street would be Hawk HP+ or Axxis Ultimate. Both have a fairly high heat threshold but will both dust a bit more than desirable on the street. Pads much more aggressive than those will be a little crappy on the street and will dust like crazy. If you were to do street pads/track pads, i would recommend Hawk HPS for the street and Hawk Blue for the track, Blues are kind of a entry level track pad, but they are at a good price point and are fantastic pad for HPDEs, they are pretty hard too cook and i have been running the same front set for 3 years on my integra, you probably wouldnt want to run Blues in the back though, might have too much friction.

[Santiago]

I'd second what StatGSR said, so mostly I'll just offer some personal experience.

I run a fairly heavy Mustang that I've tracked for about 6 years. For the first few years I used the OEM brakes with nothing other than a pad change. I used to use dedicated rotors (OEM take-offs, plain rotors) that I'd swap out along with the pads. Later I graduated to just doing pad swaps once I switched over all my pads (street/track) to the same manufacturer (Carbotech - they don't play well with other compounds, so you either have a dedicated rotor/pad set or you have street pads and track pads from them). Hawks are more forgiving of interfacing with different compounds, since they're more abrasive and sort of "self-clean" the rotor face as they begin to bed.

That combination worked extremely well. Really, for most HPDE duty it was very adequate with nothing more than a good brake cooling set up (mandatory), upgraded fluid (mandatory), and appropriate track-only pads (highly recommended). For fluid I use Motul RBF600 (Boiling point Dry: 594F (312C), Wet: 421F (216C)). When choosing a brake fluid, don't just look at the dry boiling point, look at the wet as well, since this is closer to what you'll have after a while if you're not religious about bleeding the brakes after each event.

I run w/other guys who have the same S197 chassis I do, and they too got along very well for a long time with the stock 12.5" OEM brakes up front and 11" in back. We've since upgraded to BBK systems, but for specific reasons. That is, we made the change to address specific things we increasingly felt needed attention. These were:

1. Thermal capacity of the rotor: the need was to have a larger mass (14" rotors) to better deal with heat over longer periods of use. The larger rotors are more expensive, but we're replacing them with far less frequency. The OEM rotors crack in a shorter period of time. I get a full season (or touch more) out of my rotors now, whereas I would go through 3 sets a season using the OEM ones.

2. Rigidity/durability of the caliper: one of my buddies was going through a set of front calipers a season due to caliper spreading. You could see the pads taper from outer edge to inner edge as they'd begin to lose their parallelism. The rear calipers still do this, but far-far less frequently than the fronts ever did.

Notice there is no mention of "stopping quicker or sooner," since that is best accomplished with better tires. We switched because we were simply going through equipment at an increasing rate and it became tedious. Upgrading made sense in the context of frequent and very hard use. BTW, both of us are NASA instructors, so we're doing a lot of events, giving a lot of instructional rides on top of our own runs.

I should end by saying that we did get "better braking performance" in the upgrade, but not in terms of "stopping distance." We got better pedal feel, better modulation (pad selection has a lot to do with this too), and better consistency (my buddy does enduros, so the poor things out there for 4 hours at a time). Pad choice also gives my set up better initial bite, but that's something you can get out of the pads alone.

Hope that helps.

Best,
-j

[Rasmus]

SS lines are a must IMO

No they're not. They don't increase pedal feel at all. 100% of the pedal feel increase guys report when swapping to SS lines is due to flushing the fluid. With all the tiny air bubbles and water flushed the pedal feels much better. I know becuase I did a flush then two weeks later swapped to SS lines. No increase in pedal "feel" from the lines. Difference felt after flushing fluid. Don't waste your money on SS lines.

Any aftermarket slotted rotors?

No holes. No slots. The most extreme road race rotors are blank face. Blank face only. Centric Premiums are nice. I've also used Autozone brand blank face for track days. They're inexpensive at $20-$40 per, and absorb heat really well. Track days eat rotors for breakfast. You'll be going though a lot of them if you do a lot of track days. So much easier to eat $60 for a new set of two than $460.

What fluid?

Dot 5. I use Gunk Brand. It's a pretty color too.

What pads for street/race? What about swapping pads for the track?

There is no such thing as street/race pads. Anything that advertizes that's it is a street/race pad is lying to you and wouldn't do both well. It's marketing.


You're gonna want two full sets of rotors and pads. Yes two.

One set will only be for track days. Because if you do it right the pads are bedded to the rotors and you don't want to **** that up one you get it done. They become a set. These pads won't do well when cold. In fact, you might think they're not working right at first application. But once they get up to temp you'll get bruises on your collarbones because they will just keep braking 'til the end of the session. That is, you'll never experience fade during a session. Street/race pads will fade. And if they don't you're not driving hard enough.

Your second set will be your everyday/cruise pads and rotors. Get the lowest dust pad there is and bed them to a set of rotors.

[Rasmus]

The best "Poor Man's Big Brake Kit" in my opinion for the front of a WRX is


Z32 Nissan Aluminum calipers, with KNS Brakes Z32 to WRX adapter. Legacy GT/B9 Tribeca rotor.

KNS sells the whole set up, less pads, for $400. That's a deal!

[Canadian818]

Wow! Thanks everyone for the info/advice. I wasn't expecting such detail.

I'm using 07rs brakes, 11" front, not sure the rear or piston #'s, I'll check when I get home. Cheap rotors and good pads it is! I'll get some fluid, not sure what brand I can readily get locally, but when I do I'll post. I wasn't sure if seperate rotors were necessary, but it makes sense.

I hadn't thought about the fluid being the difference when installing ss lines in my 240sx, but it makes sense. I still want them, but more for bling than anything I guess. If frequent fluid changes are in my future, I should invest in Mikes res-relocation kit.

Also, I put this in the wrong section, could an admin please move it.

Thanks, Adam

[Rasmus]

Notice there is no mention of "stopping quicker or sooner," since that is best accomplished with better tires. We switched because we were simply going through equipment at an increasing rate and it became tedious.

A big hearty, "Hear! Hear!" for the above statement.

Tire compound, track/surface conditions, and vehicle weight are what determine stopping distance.

Rotors and pads determine how many times back to back to back you can 10/10ths brake until the system overheats and you drive into the sand because the pad starts smearing.

[Wayne Presley]

A set of Hawk HP+ or DTC30's do wonders for feel and power of the brakes. I'd replace the lines with SS because they do feel better and reusing the stock lines to save $125 seems foolish compared to a line failure...

[Xusia]

I bought a set of SS brake lines mostly for the looks, but the enhanced reliability and potential improvement in feel certainly won't hurt.

[flynntuna]

IMHO since your their with easy access, rebuilding the calipers and such, adding SS lines for me is just a " might as well" item.

[Oppenheimer]

Back in the day switching to SS lines made a huge difference in pedal feel, and not just because of the bleed necessitated by changing the lines. I suspect new school cars this is just no longer the case. That the standard rubber lines used today don't have the issues the rubber lines of old did, so it no longer makes a noticible difference. But of course race/track cars still use them for the safety aspect, so guys see them on these cars and think they still have a performance benefit.

[Racebrewer]

Hi Rasmus,

Anything similar for the rear?

John

The best "Poor Man's Big Brake Kit" in my opinion for the front of a WRX is


Z32 Nissan Aluminum calipers, with KNS Brakes Z32 to WRX adapter. Legacy GT/B9 Tribeca rotor.

KNS sells the whole set up, less pads, for $400. That's a deal!

[longislandwrx]

If you want something cheap for the rear just do an H6 upgrade. a 1.1" larger rotor and you can do it for about $120 if you get good deals.

That with the right pads will make a SUBSTANTIAL difference. The H6 upgrade has been talked about several times on this board

[Rasmus]

Anything similar for the rear?

H6 upgrade. a 1.1" larger rotor and you can do it for about $120 if you get good deals. That with the right pads will make a SUBSTANTIAL difference.

What LongIsland wrote. The H6 upgrade. A Good "Poor Man's Big Rear Brake Kit".


That red brake adapter above is from the (H6 Legacy's? ) Subaru Catalog. It essentially spaces out the caliper.



Then you just run your stock caliper on the larger H6 rotor. Parking brake works and everything.

[Rasmus]

And if your still generating too much heat with the z32 Poor Man's Big Brake Kit because you're running some seriously sticky racing slicks. You need water injection.


The above is JDWhiteWrx set up on his WRX over on Nabisco. It's just like the V8 Supercars from Aussyland. Just a nice fine mist of water and you'll be able dissipate all the heat you could ever possibly generate at a track day. I'd guess you tie the water misting into the brake light on a delayed relay system. For example the mist would start 1 - 2 seconds after you hit the brakes and would stop 3-4 seconds after you release the brakes.

Just think how cool that'd look with clouds of puffy white steam coming out your front wheels after a hard braking zone.

[Rasmus]

I'm still of the opinion that the z32 conversion is the best "Poor Man's Big Brake Kit" but if $400 is still too much for you there's


the Legacy GT brake conversion for the WRX


It uses the same rotors as the z32 "Poor Man's Big Brake Kit" but Legacy GT calipers instead. It's a good compromise. You're not having to source the spacer bracket or the aluminum z32 caliper so you save some coin. But you make up for it by the mass of the Leggy's cast iron calipers. It's heavy. The worst kind of heavy. Un-sprung heavy. The above is what it would like like under a 17 inch wheel.


The above is the stock rotor under a 17 inch wheel. You can easily see the size difference.

Poor Man's Big Brake Kits
Best: z32 caliper conversion on Legacy GT rotors
Good: Legacy GT calipers on Legacy GT rotors

[KNS Brakes]

The best "Poor Man's Big Brake Kit" in my opinion for the front of a WRX is


Z32 Nissan Aluminum calipers, with KNS Brakes Z32 to WRX adapter. Legacy GT/B9 Tribeca rotor.

KNS sells the whole set up, less pads, for $400. That's a deal!

Wow!

Our little brake kit has made the rounds!

-Ken

[Rasmus]

I touched the internet's NO NO place and hotlinked an image right from another website. At least I provided a link to the commercial site hosting the image.

Or maaaaybe I did a Beetlejuice and said KNS three times.

[Canadian818]

Thanks Rasmus!

I've done a little reading, and I think this is the way to go. Can you confirm that the rear calliper brackets and both front/rear rotors come from 05-09 LGT's? Will subaru brake lines fit the Nissan calliper? And do I just cut the lip off my dust shields? (Painting and installing spindles this weekend)

[StatGSR]

Thanks Rasmus!

I've done a little reading, and I think this is the way to go. Can you confirm that the rear calliper brackets and both front/rear rotors come from 05-09 LGT's? Will subaru brake lines fit the Nissan calliper? And do I just cut the lip off my dust shields? (Painting and installing spindles this weekend)

pretty sure the "H6" rear upgrade uses 00-03 legacy rotors

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=522006
https://www.flatironstuning.com/p-18...02-05-wrx.aspx

may want to verify rear calipers/brakets if you plan on using the RS calipers.

[Rasmus]

What StatGSR wrote.

The Poor Man's Big Brake Kit is a Frankenstein Monster. It works when you finally source everything, but you'll be going though a few graves looking for the right parts.

Just don't get anything labeled "Abby Normal".

[Scargo]

Wow!

Our little brake kit has made the rounds!

-Ken

As do you! Have been thinking about you and my Stoptechs... I couldn't be happier with my Trophies on the STi. Now that I am getting an 818R I wonder what KNS recommends? I am going to go with a modified STi rear upright. Is that the same as what's on a WRX as far as how the caliper brackets fit?

Everyone: I wonder why nobody is mentioning the Brembos from an STi? As above, do they not fit a WRX rear upright? Are they rare as hen's teeth?
It's OK and fine by me that the discussion seems focused on "economical" or "bang for the buck", but it also is "a compromise". Several are talking "track" and some have the experience so how about some time and energy towards that aspect?
As an example, why not talk about the next level up, which is much lighter floating rotors? I've really liked the Gyrodisc rotors on the back of my STi with the stock Brembos. I'm at a bit of a loss with GD's, but it was easy to drill out the spot-welds on my GR backing plates and get rid of them to make things a bit cooler back there, not to mention the weight loss.

[StatGSR]

I would say we are not talking about the brembos because that was not in the interest of this thread, everyone knows you can spend 3 grand and get "better" brakes, less people know that you can spend $400-$800 on the right pads/rotors/calipers and get more braking power than you will ever need.... This has always been a major frustration for me with the subaru community. They rather buy larger more expensive brake setups with fancy calipers and continue to run crappy pads and talk about how awesome they are. My track integra runs factory rear 10 inch solid rotors with Axis ultimate pads and front 11" rotors upgrade with Integra Type R/Accord single piston calipers with hawk blue pads, I can easily out brake my tires and can slow down faster than most cars on the track, and its still just a $400-500 dollar setup (including all rotors and calipers). It is extremely cheap to maintain, lasts dozens of track days, and this is a car that is a good 600-700 lbs more than an a 818.

[Rasmus]

Once again, ditto StatGSR.

OEM Brembo's are great if you can find them and you want to pay for them. They are not inexpensive. Nothing wrong at all with them. Great brake setup with the right pads.

[Wayne Presley]

I spent 4 days in the prototypes at the track with stock rotors/calipers with upgraded pads (Hawk DTC-60) and was able to lock the wheels at will. I don't see the real need for any street 818 to go to the big brakes kits unless you just want the look in the wheel.

[metalmaker12]

Rebuilt 4pots/2pots for the street and track for me.

[FFRSpec72]

I'm going cheap, getting the 4 piston 12" Willwoods in black, this way I'm under $2000. In my challenge car which is about 650lbs heaver I use the Cobra 2 piston 13" front rotor and the GT 1 piston 11" rear rotors and no issues at all ever and use Carbotech pads, which I will run on the Willwoods also.

I also noticed that places like JEGS are cheaper and don't charge for shipping so you can save another ~$280 going this route and not ordering as part of the kit. That more than pays for my radiator. FFR does not offer just the slotted version and that is all I was looking for as I had my issues with frilled rotors on the track and will stick with just slotted.

[KNS Brakes]

As do you! Have been thinking about you and my Stoptechs... I couldn't be happier with my Trophies on the STi. Now that I am getting an 818R I wonder what KNS recommends? I am going to go with a modified STi rear upright. Is that the same as what's on a WRX as far as how the caliper brackets fit?

Everyone: I wonder why nobody is mentioning the Brembos from an STi? As above, do they not fit a WRX rear upright? Are they rare as hen's teeth?
It's OK and fine by me that the discussion seems focused on "economical" or "bang for the buck", but it also is "a compromise". Several are talking "track" and some have the experience so how about some time and energy towards that aspect?
As an example, why not talk about the next level up, which is much lighter floating rotors? I've really liked the Gyrodisc rotors on the back of my STi with the stock Brembos. I'm at a bit of a loss with GD's, but it was easy to drill out the spot-welds on my GR backing plates and get rid of them to make things a bit cooler back there, not to mention the weight loss.

To put Brembo's on a WRX hub you need a bracket and some way to deal w/ the difference in park brake if you want it to work.

http://www.knsbrakes.com/c/kns-bracket shows a few of the options in that regard.

If it were a track car I would want the bolt in front bearing and the 06-07 WRX rear knuckle so I can mount the rear Subaru 2 pot directly.

I would be Subaru's 4/2 piston setup would do pretty well and certainly would be a good start for any car. Those brakes have stood the test of time on many Subaru's and are still pretty good. They were pretty good on the WRX until I got pretty fast on track w/ some sub 200 TW tire. Then it started eating front pads/rotors.

I would think an adjustable prop valve is all but necessary.

[Ravendas]

No they're not. They don't increase pedal feel at all. 100% of the pedal feel increase guys report when swapping to SS lines is due to flushing the fluid. With all the tiny air bubbles and water flushed the pedal feels much better. I know becuase I did a flush then two weeks later swapped to SS lines. No increase in pedal "feel" from the lines. Difference felt after flushing fluid. Don't waste your money on SS lines.

I gotta disagree. I changed to SS lines from OEM a couple of years ago and it made a huge difference! Of course I went from 8 year old leaking hard-as-a-rock rubber lines to SS.


;-)

[longislandwrx]

Once again, ditto StatGSR.

OEM Brembo's are great if you can find them and you want to pay for them. They are not inexpensive. Nothing wrong at all with them. Great brake setup with the right pads.

Also, in terms of upgraded brakes, Brembos also weigh a ton.... literally all four on a scale weigh 2000lbs. If you got a crazy deal on a set of 04 brembos, it might be worth it but otherwise its a lot of cash, and there's easier/better/lighter ways to do it.

[STiPWRD]

I bought a set of V7 JDM Brembos with rotors, pads, and spindles for my 818S. Spent $1000 for everything and total weight was 194 lbs (they included the rear trailing arms but I will be using aftermarket ones). The brembos are probably overkill but I got them for looks as well. Buying them with the spindles solves the rear caliper bracket problem and I'll probably sell the front spindles since they are the same as the ones I already have.

On a side note, I've also used the Axxis Ultimate pads on my wrx and certainly noticed a difference but they do get very dusty.

[Rasmus]

I gotta disagree. I changed to SS lines from OEM a couple of years ago and it made a huge difference! Of course I went from 8 year old leaking hard-as-a-rock rubber lines to SS.

How many times did you flush the fluid in your 8 year old OEM lines before swapping to SS lines? How close in time was your last fluid flush on the OEM setup before your swap to SS? I reiterate: "100% of the pedal feel increase guys report when swapping to SS lines is due to flushing the fluid."

It's fine if you want SS for the look or abrasion resistance. But to swap for "pedal feel" is just falling prey to marketing.

[Scargo]

... Brembos also weigh a ton.... literally all four on a scale weigh 2000lbs. ...

Is that with the 818 attached to the brakes plus hyperbole? Or is it with your thumb on the scale?
Front STI Brembo calipers (04-08) fit 06-07 WRX front uprights. The brake caliper bolts need to correspond to the MY Brembo caliper.
I did not think of my front '08 Brembos as being that heavy.

[longislandwrx]

LOL I may have been leaning on the scale a little but the rotors are heavy and the calipers aren't exactly featherweights... aluminum hats save lbs but that's more $$$ a set of gyrodiscs are going to set you back $1000

[StatGSR]

^ to be fair, some amount of weight is actually a good thing for brakes, helps resist heat build up and boiling brake fluid.

[Scargo]

High performance two-piece rotors weight far less and perform far better at removing heat. All that iron mass is not required to keep things cool.
The weight, the rotating mass and unsprung weight is huge for some of us racers. And we must deal with the heat.
Yes, it cost money to correct it.

For street cars, if you don't address it, and then occasionally drive the car aggressively, the brakes get too hot, then need better, more expensive pads and fluids. Regardless, the massive stock rotors are harder to stop rolling and perform rather inefficiently. Hurts acceleration and braking performance, hurts gas mileage and is harder on the suspension components and tires. The saving money logic is kinda counterproductive to me.
If you don't upgrade the rotors you can still add Ti backing plates and do some simple air ducting-air deflecting to the brakes.

[StatGSR]

I already said that we all know you can blow a huge chunk of change on on expensive rotors and brakes and they are better... in theory. But in reality, your talk of better acceleration, braking performance, and fuel mileage are a huge stretch for your average HPDE driver. If your going into competitive racing then yes, ever little ounce helps, but your average track day enthusiast can gain seconds per lap just by spending more time behind the wheel, not because of how much money he spend on his brake setup all they need is a brake setup that performs well consistently. Dropping 5lbs from each corner of the car will be completely unnoticed by almost every car enthusiast.

[Scargo]

My point really is, it goes beyond performance track driving and racing. I mean, why are there BMWs for the masses? How many ever see the track? Or an STi with its lighter wheels and better brakes than a WRX. People do notice. We are dealing with a sports car, kit car, not a family WRX sedan anymore.
Perhaps it's not apples to apples, because there's consumables involved, but why do people spend extra money for "high efficiency" appliances? It brings down their utility bills and pays off in the long-run.

With wheels and brakes for my '08 STi (with already lighter BBS wheels) I think I shaved, or lopped off, about 15 pounds on each front suspension. That's 30 pounds of unsprung weight on the front... Less weight savings in the rear.
Girodisc 2-pc fronts are $700 and 10 pounds less than a stock rotor. DBA 5000's 2-pc rotors are much cheaper and save six pounds each.

[flynntuna]

Could it be for the same reason people buy trucks and suv's with 4wd? 90% of them never see dirt.

[StatGSR]

My point really is, it goes beyond performance track driving and racing. I mean, why are there BMWs for the masses? How many ever see the track? Or an STi with its lighter wheels and better brakes than a WRX. People do notice. We are dealing with a sports car, kit car, not a family WRX sedan anymore.
Perhaps it's not apples to apples, because there's consumables involved, but why do people spend extra money for "high efficiency" appliances? It brings down their utility bills and pays off in the long-run.

With wheels and brakes for my '08 STi (with already lighter BBS wheels) I think I shaved, or lopped off, about 15 pounds on each front suspension. That's 30 pounds of unsprung weight on the front... Less weight savings in the rear.
Girodisc 2-pc fronts are $700 and 10 pounds less than a stock rotor. DBA 5000's 2-pc rotors are much cheaper and save six pounds each.

I'm guna keep beating this dead horse since that's my style.

Not sure what point your trying to make, BMWs are not all that fancy, they are comfy taxi's and commuters for the rest of the world, only the US has a glorified opinion of them, and dont have anything special in the way of brakes outside of "M" cars. Yes the STI has larger (and heavier) brakes than the WRX, bigger brakes and ligher wheels are to be expected of the top performance model from any car manufacturer. brakes torque and feel are improved by the larger rotor size and the increased number of pistons. High efficiency appliances? yea cause a brake job is cheaper on an STI because its more efficient? pretty sure its the opposite.

Again, yes you can shed unsprung weight (and doing so is never bad), but can average people even notice it? no your average guy cannot, they will also see no real improvement in braking performance, acceleration, or MPGs. A change in tire diameter by half an inch will have a larger impact on all of those things.

As noted, this thread is about OEM brake options and how much braking power is needed, not about how much my money can be blown for infinitesimal performance increases. No mater how you slice it we are taking a braking setup designed for a car that was 1000lbs heavier, the increase in braking performance already exists.