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Thread: OEM Brake upgrades

  1. #41
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
    Just a reminder fellas, the title of this thread is "OEM Brake upgrades". Perhaps we should start another thread to discuss brake setups outside of that scope? Carbon-carbon rotors: GO!
    I am talking about upgrades to OEM brakes.

  2. #42
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
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    also, if you wanted to take your z32 brakes to the next level, order them without the rotors, (saving $100)
    and get yourself some DBA 5000 series rotors with aluminum hats for $600
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  3. #43
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by longislandwrx View Post
    also, if you wanted to take your z32 brakes to the next level, order them without the rotors, (saving $100)
    and get yourself some DBA 5000 series rotors with aluminum hats for $600
    OR... even lighter Girodisc A1-007 for $710 delivered from Amazon.

  4. #44
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    Do they offer hats and friction rings separate for either Girodiscs or DBAs? I'm ok w/a $600-$700 entry fee, but only if I can get replacement rings for less. Eventually you have to replace the hats as well, but they'll last many times longer than the rings, and this brings the cost of running these down considerably.

    On my Mustang I have 2-pc rotors (14" front) that I can source for $800/pr. Ouch. BUT, I can get replacement rings for around $200/ea., so that's half the cost per set than getting the whole assembly. I do have two sets of hats, but that's just to allow me assembly time in the garage rather than doing it track-side when the rings are done. Along with the longer life these have given me in general, the added expense isn't as bad as it sounds and they are much lighter than their solid counterparts.

    Best,
    -j

    EDIT: Ok, I see the friction rings now (in the neighborhood of $450/set for front & $350/set for rears), how about hats? I guess you could go w/2 full sets and have the extra hats once both sets of friction rings have been used up. That's actually how I got my two sets of hats for the Mustang - it was cheaper that way.
    Last edited by Santiago; 03-12-2014 at 08:49 AM.
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  5. #45
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    About $360 for Girodisc replacement rings and hardware. DBAs you can get but there was a design change about 1-1/2 to 2 years ago that caused some grief and uncertainty about getting them for older hats.
    I have several sets of two-piece rotors, but they are for the GR STi. That's how I know about weight differences.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Rasmus's Avatar
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    Thought I'd bump this thread for fellas that may not have seen it.
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  7. #47
    Member CanadianYank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
    Thought I'd bump this thread for fellas that may not have seen it.
    Thanks Rasmus, great info its bookmarked...

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  8. #48
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    Here's a challenge. . . and seemingly (but not really) stupid question. What would be the lightest, smallest barely legal brakes set up . . . assuming no real need for actual braking . . and no issues with heat? I just want something to pass inspection and hold the car still when stopped. No stopping friction required.
    Will aluminum rear calipers fit on the front? What are the smallest, lightest rotors available. I want to loose the un-sprung weight as much as possible. I think there are aluminum rotors for drag racers (illegal I think for the road) but there are aluminum rotors with steel inserts . . probably ridiculous expensive. I don't what to get into coating aluminum. . . I just want something light and legal . . . stopping capability not important. Electric drive uses regenerative braking so, no need for these to do much.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Livingston View Post
    Here's a challenge. . . and seemingly (but not really) stupid question. What would be the lightest, smallest barely legal brakes set up . . . assuming no real need for actual braking . . and no issues with heat? I just want something to pass inspection and hold the car still when stopped. No stopping friction required.
    Will aluminum rear calipers fit on the front? What are the smallest, lightest rotors available. I want to loose the un-sprung weight as much as possible. I think there are aluminum rotors for drag racers (illegal I think for the road) but there are aluminum rotors with steel inserts . . probably ridiculous expensive. I don't what to get into coating aluminum. . . I just want something light and legal . . . stopping capability not important. Electric drive uses regenerative braking so, no need for these to do much.
    Hey Gary
    First I'll tell you that I have been involved in building EVs for 20 years.
    I agree that with regen you don't have to worry about brake heat.
    I totally disagree with brakes that have no stopping function .
    Two Words "PANIC STOP"
    Brakes can typically apply 4 to 6 time torque to wheel than motor controller can.
    On the 818 you would only have rear wheel regen braking. Standard brakes use all four wheels.
    I would not trust electronics in a panic stop. A high current panic stop would be the most likely place to blow a fuse or transistor.
    When batteries are full regen doesn't work as there is no place to put the power.
    Please think about this before you proceed down this path.
    Bob

    Here is the front brakes on front of a tesla model S
    fe_9171215_600.jpg
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  10. #50
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    Hi Bob,

    Yes I get your point . . . and ,of course they would be functional. I was just trying to get my point across to help people understand what I was searching for. Also, it will have AWD and all wheel regen braking, tune-able for front rear distribution of course.

    Of course the Tesla modelS is only rear wheel drive, so. . . very significant point to have front wheel brakes since they tend to do most of the braking.
    Last edited by Gary Livingston; 10-03-2014 at 09:59 PM.

  11. #51
    Senior Member Turboguy's Avatar
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    Gary, perhaps you would benefit from going back and re-reading Bob's post again. I am left with the impression that you did not get his point.

  12. #52
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    It wouldn't be the first time Turbo. . . lol OK so I read it again. I think I got it all the first time. The problem is I think with my original description. It doesn't paint a very accurate picture of what I want. In fact it is rather misleading. It sounds as though I want no brakes at all. I should have started by saying that I would have 4 wheel regen that would have helped Bob and others realize I wasn't trying to stop this thing with rear wheel regen only. Let me try again.
    Most brakes on performance cars are over sized to deal with the heat build up that occurs from multiple high energy events. This is what this thread is really focused on. My set up, under normal driving (and racing) won't have this issue as the brake pads will seldom, if ever be engaged. That said, they still need to be capable of stopping the car, especially as Bob points out, in some kind of failure mode. But this ability does not need to be engineered to accommodate the additional heat build up of non-regenerative applications. So, most of the high end performance brake components focus on reduced weight and increased friction capability as well as heat dissipation. My focus is on reducing the unsprung weight primarily while still maintaining the capability to stop the car if needed. There are likely few if any components designed with this in mind. So, questions like, will "rear brakes fit on the front" and such become potentially viable options. The Tesla example is a bit off because it deals with a very heavy rear wheel drive only vehicle. We all know that front brakes tend to 70% of the stopping. . or at least some number above 50%.

    Regarding safety, most cars have three separate systems. The master cylinders are made with dual pistons and separate hydraulic systems to separate the front from the rear and reduce the failure mode impact. The third is the ebrake. Mine will have 5 systems. The three described plus the front and rear electric drive systems which are completely separate systems.

    Bob is 100% correct though, I do agree with him in the context is was written. Plus he has a lot more experience than I do in this field.

    regards,
    Gary

  13. #53
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    A question for Subaru gurus. . . is there not some alternative to the drum ebrake system? In my mind, this is terrible. I want to loose this weight. An ebrake can be incorporated into the caliper. I just did the brakes on my daughters VW beetle a few weeks ago. It has a lever which mechanically rotates and forces the caliper piston forward. Weight would be fractional. Complication is a 1 compared to a 9. What are the options? Do we have to fit VW brakes?

  14. #54
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Hi Gary
    The Tesla model S is a very low center of gravity car. So brake shifting to the front wheels is not as pronounces as most cars.
    The 818 is similar in the respect.

    This is a picture of the Tesla rear brakes. It is a 4 pot caliper. It also has a separate small caliper for the e-brake. it is an electrically activated parking brake, which engages automatically when you put the car in park
    imagesIW1WACB2.jpg
    bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 10-05-2014 at 09:19 AM.
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  15. #55
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    Hey Bob. Thanks! I'm a bit perplexed by the "Emergency" vs "parking" brake thing. The emergency brake may serve also as a parking brake, but not vice versa as I understand it. I once tried to apply my "parking" brake on the volt when I was going down a slippery, snow covered hill in the winter. The front wheels started to skid (due to regen, I might add. . . which I have an issue with and need to try and convince GM to change their algorithm for regen on slippery roads)f Anyways, using the ebrake is something I have done many times in this situation. Putting the transmission in neutral also make a big difference and can stop this situation often as most who drive in winter conditions would likely know. Anyways, I hit the going down this hill to engage the rear brakes more and nothing happens. They seem to work only as a parking brake! Not impressed.!

  16. #56
    Senior Member Turboguy's Avatar
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    Gary- I still think you're missing some of the message here. Actually the majority of it --well-- actually ALL of it.

    Your original post left no confusion either, so let's not back-pedal here: in a nutshell, you are looking for the absolute minimum installation that will 'look like' a real brake system, so you can slide through a safety inspection and get your car licensed for road use. The brake system that you describe would not be capable of stopping the car in a reasonably safe distance, let alone in a repeated stop situation. Most motorcycles are equipped with beefier braking systems than you propose for your 818.

    In short, regenerative brakes are a great 'environmental' feature but they are woefully inadequate on their own for street use.........and would be absolutely laughable at the track (which you imply you will be going to by mentioning 'racing'). They are an assistive technology, not a replacement for a traditional brake system. It doesn't matter whether they are engaged on 2 wheels or all 4. The fact of the matter is that traditional brakes can apply 4 to 6 times the torque to a wheel than a regenerative system can. Unless your 818 is riding on bicycle tires, a modern mechanical brake system will generate far, far better stopping performance. Regenerative brakes also have failure modes which could very well cost you, your passenger -or another motorist- their life.


    I believe Bob's responses, in part, are to demonstrate that even the most current state-of-the-art electric vehicle includes a high performance mechanical braking system at the same level as those found on very high performance cars. A braking system that would be completely capable of stopping the car in short order all on it's own.


    Bob has been very diplomatic in his replies. As a fellow motorist sharing the roads in Ontario with you, I am not.
    Last edited by Turboguy; 10-05-2014 at 11:34 AM.

  17. #57
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    From article about Porsche race cars using regenerative braking:
    "In motorsports, drivers accelerate and brake a lot harder and a lot more frequently than the average commuter. The rate at which a chemical battery can absorb and release this energy is limited, and rapid charging/discharging causes it to overheat and form cracks in its electrodes. That's why hybrid vehicles are typically limited to about 0.3 g's of deceleration from regen braking. Race cars like the 911 Hybrid racer typically decelerate at over 1 g."

    Most passenger cars can only realistically achieve .7 g's. This came from an internet article.
    Thus, I would think .3 g's would be decent braking. I doubt it would throw anyone through a windshield, but it might give them a headache if they were unrestrained during a sudden application of the brakes. Around one G of acceleration keeps people pinned in their seat.

  18. #58
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    You don't have to store the braking power. If you just put a big motor on all four wheel and connect the two wires of each motor together, you'll lock up all four wheels. That's exactly how the electric brake on a cordless tool works.

  19. #59
    Senior Member Goldwing's Avatar
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    Yep, R/C cars have been doing that for a few decades now as well.

    We might need to have our first beer summit. One of the best parts of this forum is the lack of arguments and trolling. Quite the opposite of many forums (NASIOC included), even repeat questions aren't barked at and usually linked to a helpful post or the advice is simply administered. I love that about this place. We just help each other out. Please understand the initial posts left a few with genuine concern. Things snowballed from there. Reading the above, there was enough room to lead to confusion. So, let's try a reset, a mulligan, whatever. Maybe it's the new dad in me, but I hesitate to lighten the capability of the brakes, even if the plan is to rarely use their capability. Perhaps you could compare the weights of various years of WRX's and swap to a lighter year? You'll likely find someone willing to trade with you if you have the 4 pot/ 2 pot setup on your donor. I might suggest, looking to lighter wheels, lighter suspension pieces, and maybe a lighter weight rotor first.

    If you're skilled at fabricating, I had zero problems with my turbo beetle that had brakes you described above, and it's a similar weight car to a wrx. Remember that we are foregoing brake boost, so you would want to compare brake system pressures to be sure. It seems a lot of trouble for a few pounds, that while nicely integrated, does lose a little bit of redundancy. I like the separate brake pad setup of our ebrake. The caliper can fall off the car, and the ebrake will still work. Remember though, I'm a new dad, and paranoid and stuff.

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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Livingston View Post
    A question for Subaru gurus. . . is there not some alternative to the drum ebrake system? In my mind, this is terrible. I want to loose this weight. An ebrake can be incorporated into the caliper. I just did the brakes on my daughters VW beetle a few weeks ago. It has a lever which mechanically rotates and forces the caliper piston forward. Weight would be fractional. Complication is a 1 compared to a 9. What are the options? Do we have to fit VW brakes?
    Check this out: http://store.revolutionbrake.com/mrparepabrso.html
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  21. #61
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Sorry guys, I had to remove 4 posts. Let's keep it civil please.


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  22. #62
    Senior Member xxguitarist's Avatar
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    In case this is still about moderate upgrades for the stock braking system ;-)

    We will be putting good brake fluid in from the beginning (whatever the yellow colored equivalent of the superblue is), and checking out the pads that came with the car- Lots of material left, but I suspect a bit weak.
    If we replace, it'll be with EBC yellowstuff most likely. Good pad for auto-x weekends, while still street-able. A roadcourse would be asking a little too much of them.

  23. #63
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Thought this thread should be bumped with all the brake discussion lately .

    Found this on nasioc...


    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1265631

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    Looking at upgrading our donor while the boy is still driving it (04 RS sedan)
    Has anyone had experience with the "power stop" brand calipers ? I found these at autoparts warehouse. They say direct replacement, and they are powder-coated red (bonus).
    front and rear can be had for about $350. Adding the Centric rotors & pads adds another 275.
    If this a good option for the 818C ? or am I wasting time because there is something better/cheaper ( don't belong in the same sentence..right)

    Thanks for the input.
    "E"

  25. #65
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    From what I've read (at Summit's site) is that they are rebuilt calipers and many have various minor issues. Some, not that minor...
    Given that they may not be perfect or you may have to return one or more of them to get a good, full set, then they may be a bargain.

  26. #66
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    I have never had an issue with remanufactured calipers any any car. But I can't really say I have ever ordered that specific set.

  27. #67
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Innkeepr View Post
    Looking at upgrading our donor while the boy is still driving it (04 RS sedan)
    Has anyone had experience with the "power stop" brand calipers ? I found these at autoparts warehouse. They say direct replacement, and they are powder-coated red (bonus).
    front and rear can be had for about $350. Adding the Centric rotors & pads adds another 275.
    If this a good option for the 818C ? or am I wasting time because there is something better/cheaper ( don't belong in the same sentence..right)

    Thanks for the input.
    "E"
    I would stick with the OEM brakes until you get the 818 running and then evaluate what you need.
    Some are happy with OEM.
    Some went with high performance pads.
    Some went to expensive ap racing, brembo or wilwood brakes.
    I went with larger OEM calipers in the rear and street/autocross/trackday pads all around. I am happy.
    Bob
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  28. #68
    Senior Member Rasmus's Avatar
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    Just found another one for this thread.

    Cadillac ATS-V (Brembo) calipers and 2004 STi Brake Rotors (the 5x100 ones) installed on a 5x100 Subaru (WRX).

    it's about $650-$690 if you get all new parts but you get:


    Head to this website: www.ctsvbrakeswap.com/
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  29. #69
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    That's a great idea for getting to STi level braking for cheap. Also opens the door for better and lighter rotors. Which, if I digress, makes me think about 5X114 wheels... (were I to have 5X100s)
    After looking at the CTSV brake swap site I went to their Facebook page, where there are lots of pictures and more info. Looking at what's involved I wonder what stops people from welding on a new boss and bypassing the adapter kit? I guess I've been fabbing and welding so long that it seems like a no-brainer.

  30. #70
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    i don't believe they have a rear break upgrade, I don't have my car far enough along but I believe the car needs tons more rear brake before a front upgrade is in order?

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samiam1017 View Post
    i don't believe they have a rear break upgrade, I don't have my car far enough along but I believe the car needs tons more rear brake before a front upgrade is in order?
    We have a winner
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  32. #72
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samiam1017 View Post
    i don't believe they have a rear break upgrade, I don't have my car far enough along but I believe the car needs tons more rear brake before a front upgrade is in order?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Presley View Post
    We have a winner
    We ran 96 laps this past weekend at NCM 3.15 mile Grand Course.
    Running front 04 FXT calipers on all 4 corners. PV on rears turned down 4 revolutions.
    After 10 hot laps and a cool down lap, the back side of the pads were 220f front and 300f rear.

    P1050696s.jpg

    The rear rotor I am running is designed to put sti brakes on a 5x100 wrx with 170mm ebrake.

    I totally agree with Wayne and Samiam about the rear is where upgrades are warranted.
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 04-12-2016 at 10:13 AM.
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  33. #73
    Senior Member Rasmus's Avatar
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    Clearly I've been out of the loop for a while. I'll have keep in mind that those that have actually been to the track with this car are heating up the rear brakes more than the fronts. Thanks fellas.
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  34. #74
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    Looks like the ATS-V uses a 6 piston on the front and a 4 on the back. The conversion kit is for using the 4 piston on the front of the 818. So, that begs the question, who wants to model up a bracket/adapter for the rears to use the same 4 piston?

    4 piston calipers all around, then adjust bias as necessary, which sounds like you shouldn't need to do much.

    Sexy looking brakes with more than enough braking power, and with the additional braking power in the rear that is evidently needed. All for around $1300.00 with rotors and pads.

    Plus, digging around, the parts are easy to source new.

    Calipers are only $135.00 at Summit. They're Brembos supplied by AC Delco, AND they're aluminum. Somebody please do this. If you need to be spotted a caliper to do this, I'll be happy to oblige. Or somebody tell me I'm way off track.

    http://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts...llac/model/ats
    Last edited by MiniVanMan; 04-12-2016 at 01:22 PM.

  35. #75
    Senior Member Rasmus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scargo View Post
    Looking at what's involved I wonder what stops people from welding on a new boss and bypassing the adapter kit? I guess I've been fabbing and welding so long that it seems like a no-brainer.
    Glyn you must have some serious welding skills. I've taken a welding class at the local community college so I know if I tried to weld new bosses onto a cast iron knuckle I'd be without brakes soon. I just don't have the skills to trust that those welds would hold without cracking. If the knuckle was steel I might give it a go. Cast iron's a big nope.
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    Here is the rear adapter mount we made for the AP calipers I am using. the Black anidized adaptor is a bolt-on adaptor for the front from a BRZ brake kit which works on the WRX upright.
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-arrived/page2

  37. #77
    Senior Member DodgyTim's Avatar
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    I put a second set of the 2006 4 pots fronts on the rear, with larger diameter (316 mm) 5x100 rotors, to give better rear brakes and a slight rear bias.
    It was cheap to do but took some time to modify the standard backing plates and machine the calliper mounts a little
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...t-and-the-rear
    I still haven't really tested them in anger

  38. #78
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
    ...If the knuckle was steel I might give it a go. Cast iron's a big nope.
    I understand your concerns and they are warranted. There is filler rod specifically for cast iron and cast iron to steel. I had a Chevy where the owner and builder was an aeronautical engineer. He welded material to the spindles to convert it to disc brakes. He did have welds magnafluxed and he shot-peened everything. I am not sure if he did any annealing. I know picking the right filler is critical.
    When I welded the up-pipes out of 321 SS I back-purged my welds with Argon to prevent oxidation of the back side of the welds, which is a known issue and causes serious weakening. I talked to a guy who does pretty exhaust work and no back-purging, so that ended our conversation. Full Race back-purges all their 316 welds.

  39. #79
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    Bumping this thread, I'm going to do the H6 rear upgrade that's been discussed here and on the Subaru forum. The caliper brackets I'm looking at on Rockauto are like $20 and rotors I'm considering are $59. Are these the right brackets?

    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...hub,rotor,1896

    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...r+bracket,1714
    Attached Images Attached Images

  40. #80
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynntuna View Post
    Bumping this thread, I'm going to do the H6 rear upgrade that's been discussed here and on the Subaru forum. The caliper brackets I'm looking at on Rockauto are like $20 and rotors I'm considering are $59. Are these the right brackets?

    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...hub,rotor,1896

    https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...r+bracket,1714
    This rear brake upgrade will give you better rear rotors cooling. The H6 rotors are bigger, so some increase in performance. What you really need is more braking force from the rear wheels.

    I don't know if your parts are correct.
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 09-01-2017 at 11:17 AM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

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