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Thread: Harley's 818S

  1. #361
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    I had my rear lateral links parallel, as checked with a digital angle gauge. It wasn't enough. When I got a bump steer gauge and checked it, I had a fair amount of rear bump steer and it was making the car twitchy. I set it for just a hair of bump-in in the rear, mostly just to ensure that it never becomes bump-out under load.

  2. #362
    Harley818's Avatar
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    I've been working through one issue at a time, so now I'm ready to get back at the alignment.
    at low speed, its awesome, however at higher speeds, like 55mph and above, it is a bit twitchy like you say, or it seems to "hunt" to either side at the center position. You really have to concentrate to keep it straight.
    I was thinking now I will try to add the spacer in the LCA so I can adjust for a bit more caster, and I saw your comment about the rear bump steer in another thread. I'm not thinking that would affect steady state straight line twitchiness??? or does it?
    How did you adjust for a hair of bump steer? Slightly out of parallel biased toward the front lower, or rear lower? or do you need the bump steer gauge?
    I have been setting them parallel with the digital angle guage.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  3. #363
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    Do you know how much caster you have now? I was able to get all I needed by flipping the hurricane bracket and cutting down down the rear tube nut on the upper a-arms a bit. I think I'm at like 5.5 degrees.

    So many things can cause twitchy handling. Having toe-out or zero-toe in the front, bump steer front and rear, and lack of caster, so it's important to check them all. And yes, rear-bump steer can make the car feel twitchy in a straight line as the suspension loads and unloads over bumps and ruts. It probably won't be as noticeable in a straight line as it is in corners, but I bet you could feel it.

    To get a hair of bump IN (very critical that it's bump-in and not bump out), you want the rear lateral link to be lower on the outside (toward the tire) end than the forward lateral link. The problem is, you can't really know how much you have unless you use a gauge. But in a pinch, I'd set them so your angle gauge reads maybe a tenth of a percent or two above 0. If you are laying the angle gauge across the two links toward the outside end of thinks, the front of the angle gauge should be higher than the rear.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight2.0 View Post
    Do you know how much caster you have now? I was able to get all I needed by flipping the hurricane bracket and cutting down down the rear tube nut on the upper a-arms a bit. I think I'm at like 5.5 degrees.

    So many things can cause twitchy handling. Having toe-out or zero-toe in the front, bump steer front and rear, and lack of caster, so it's important to check them all. And yes, rear-bump steer can make the car feel twitchy in a straight line as the suspension loads and unloads over bumps and ruts. It probably won't be as noticeable in a straight line as it is in corners, but I bet you could feel it.

    To get a hair of bump IN (very critical that it's bump-in and not bump out), you want the rear lateral link to be lower on the outside (toward the tire) end than the forward lateral link. The problem is, you can't really know how much you have unless you use a gauge. But in a pinch, I'd set them so your angle gauge reads maybe a tenth of a percent or two above 0. If you are laying the angle gauge across the two links toward the outside end of thinks, the front of the angle gauge should be higher than the rear.

    I thought I dialed in 3 degrees of caster, but as you pointed out before, I measured it on the FFR weldment which may not be correct. I am going to do it again and measure the plus and minus angles you mentioned and divide by two. What did you set your angle gauge on?.
    When you say hurricane bracket what do you mean? flip the attachment of the rear of the LCA to the spindle? or flip the LCA rear mount with the squiggle down?
    And I didn't have to cut the nut to get my 3 degrees of caster, I just cut the thread, but if I go further, I will have to cut the nut as it is out of room.
    Thanks for your help, this is all new to me....
    thx again
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  5. #365
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Re-check that the rear lower lateral links are parallel, you could be getting the rear steering the car, can be very sensitive to throttle on/ throttle off. I think the car would be easier to setup if they eliminated the eccentric adj for the lower rear lateral link, you should use a length adj rear link to adjust toe in the rear
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  6. #366
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    You can come by and borrow our castor/camber gage, easy to use and super accurate. We set our race cars up with it, and could not be happier! We string every car we have on rotating pads and use toe plates for toe. To measure bump steer, we took out the springs, set jack stands to ride height all around, then jacked one wheel up at a time and measured toe. We were able to get set to zero bump steer front and rear with this method.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harley818 View Post
    I thought I dialed in 3 degrees of caster, but as you pointed out before, I measured it on the FFR weldment which may not be correct. I am going to do it again and measure the plus and minus angles you mentioned and divide by two. What did you set your angle gauge on?.
    When you say hurricane bracket what do you mean? flip the attachment of the rear of the LCA to the spindle? or flip the LCA rear mount with the squiggle down?
    And I didn't have to cut the nut to get my 3 degrees of caster, I just cut the thread, but if I go further, I will have to cut the nut as it is out of room.
    Thanks for your help, this is all new to me....
    thx again
    Yeah I would not measure caster like that. I tried it after I set it using a digital gauge and it wasn't accurate at all. Maybe others have had better luck with it but not me. I set my angle gauge on a little jig I made that resembles this:
    https://www.quicktrickalignment.com/...quantity-copy/
    You have to turn the wheel 15 degrees to the left, measure, then turn back to center, then 15 degrees to the right and measure again. You subtract the two. Go to youtube and search "quicktrick caster" or even just "DIY caster" etc and you'll see. You can use two floor tiles with grease in between them for the pivots, and use cardboard taped to the floor to set your lines for 15 degrees. I think I have pictures of my doing that buried in my build thread somewhere.

    On the hurricane bracket, I flipped the attachment to the lower control arm, but also had to ensure the squiggly part of the bracket was facing the same way as stock (I can't remember if it's up or down - I did it wrong initially and Bob noticed and corrected me as he has done for a number of other guys).

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight2.0 View Post
    Yeah I would not measure caster like that. I tried it after I set it using a digital gauge and it wasn't accurate at all. Maybe others have had better luck with it but not me. I set my angle gauge on a little jig I made that resembles this:
    https://www.quicktrickalignment.com/...quantity-copy/
    You have to turn the wheel 15 degrees to the left, measure, then turn back to center, then 15 degrees to the right and measure again. You subtract the two. Go to youtube and search "quicktrick caster" or even just "DIY caster" etc and you'll see. You can use two floor tiles with grease in between them for the pivots, and use cardboard taped to the floor to set your lines for 15 degrees. I think I have pictures of my doing that buried in my build thread somewhere.

    On the hurricane bracket, I flipped the attachment to the lower control arm, but also had to ensure the squiggly part of the bracket was facing the same way as stock (I can't remember if it's up or down - I did it wrong initially and Bob noticed and corrected me as he has done for a number of other guys).

    Thanks, I'll check the links and your thread. Sounds like I can switch the hurricane bracket. I know I have the LCA mount correct with Squiggly down because I had to change it once to get it right.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  9. #369
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    little victories.....
    Originally I set ride heigh to 4 3/4 inches.
    Somehow it ended up lower than that.

    A couple days ago I re-adjusted the ride height to 4 3/8 inches all around.
    Then I set the rear lateral links to be slightly lower on the rear link than the front link (0.25 degrees on my digital level).

    Subtle, but much better driving and tracking. Car does not "hunt" as much at speed. Still does a bit, but I suspect I can eliminate that when I work on the front caster.
    One thing at a time.

    Oh, and I had my car back to the dyno. I installed the Cobb 3 port boost controller. and had it re-tuned. What a DIFFERENCE!!!

    For anyone out there who is not getting 15 psi boost, you probably have a faulty boost controller.
    I just installed the one that came with my donor, not knowing that it wasn't working till I went for the dyno tune. It limits you to 7 - 9 psi.
    However, now with the re-tune..... different story.
    Now I get full 15psi and FULL Pull... wow does it haul!

    Unlimited wheel spin in 1st and 2nd gear....... need I say more?
    245 rear wheel Hp. I'm happy with that.
    I'm already having to really watch the throttle on takeoff and on any corner.
    A little too much throttle and the car is sideways......
    on the other hand, play with just the right amount and it just takes off.
    Lots of fun.....
    Last edited by Harley818; 09-24-2017 at 12:29 AM.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  10. #370
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    245whp and full spin in 2nd?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  11. #371
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    I had 261 whp and I could break it free in first, and if I really dropped the clutch,I could get some spin in second. It definitely takes some effort though. Do you have an open diff? I could see it easy to get one wheel to break free, but with my locking diff, it isn't easy to get both.

  12. #372
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    Glad you are getting things sorted and under way!

    Did you do the bump-steer on the front yet? That's going to have a huge impact in stability.

  13. #373
    Harley818's Avatar
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    Yes, I have an open diff, so maybe just one side. Feels awesome though..... and the car just seems to slide so nice through the corners unless you dip too deep.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Glad you are getting things sorted and under way!

    Did you do the bump-steer on the front yet? That's going to have a huge impact in stability.
    yes I did the bump steer right from the start based on your info. 46mm spacing. I didn't measure with a bump steer gauge though, so I don't know if its the same as yours. I have a 2002 rack.
    I'm pretty convinced its the caster that needs attention.
    The adjustment I made on the rears though based on your info for rear lateral link just a hair lower has had a positive impact on the straight line tracking.
    On a smooth or recently paved road, it actually tracks great. However, we have quite a bit of pavement here that has the ruts from the big trucks..... so I think I'm getting a lot of tire steer. With the minimal caster thats a problem. If i dial in a bit more caster it should be better.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  15. #375
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    Good good! Yeah your bump-steer should be close - the only thing is that you are running a 2002 rack while I'm running a 2007 rack. The frames for the 818 are different based on steering rack year. As long as the two different 818 frames position the centerline of the rack at the exact same height, the 46mm number should get you close.

    Also ensure you have enough toe-in front and rear. 1/32" to 1/16" front, and 3/16" to I think 5/16" rear. I'm running 1/4" rear but talked with Wayne today and he said 3/16" rear is working well for him. But more rear toe-in is supposed to make the car more track-stable, which makes sense. Can really cook the tires on the track though, especially if running a lot of negative camber.

  16. #376
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    THat's allot of rear toe! We run 1/16th on track, front and rear. Interesting.

  17. #377
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    I'm new to alignment on mid-engine RWD cars. I agree that it sounds like a lot! But looking up the settings on relatively similar cars like a Porsche GT-4 and you'll find settings of around or just shy of 3/16" in the rear.

  18. #378
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Hey Harley,

    About your lexan to fix 90% of the smell, 13x44in but how thick again? 1/8? Would you rather go thinner, same or thicker if you were to do it again?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  19. #379
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Ah well, there you go http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post289554

    1/4x13x44

    But still, is 1/4 too thick? Would you have gone with 3/16 or 1/8?
    I'm looking at the thinnest size that won't wobble.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  20. #380
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    Hi Frank,
    I wouldn't go with less than 1/4 in. Even with my 1/4, there is a lot of turbulence at speed. I had to add some rubber around the edge to keep if from slapping against the roller. It does buffet around a lot when you get over 100K or 60mph.

    Just read the thread on separation vs divorce...... seems a few of us are doing the same thing. I'm just getting ready to get back at it to finish the body and paint before summer. It was good to drive it for Aug to October last year, but I still have some things to fix and found some things to modify based on how it drove...... for me the key is to not let it bother me... I get some time here and there and I work on it, then get back to it when the window opens again. I'm still having fun though.....
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  21. #381
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Whoa, that is serious thing to keep in mind about the slapping.

    Maybe it requires more attach points too.

    If you were to do it again, would you still go with 1/4 or try 3/16?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  22. #382
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    This was the year of getting the body done.
    Last summer I drove the car around town and to work.
    It was reliable and fun.
    This year I spent the first part of the summer cleaning up the body panel joints, then drove it for another couple months.
    The last couple weeks I've been taking off the panels, cleaning them up and sanding with 600 grit.
    I'm happy with the look and fit and will be painting it in the next couple weeks.
    818 sanded.jpg

    I also had a bit of an issue with my alignment. At about 60mph the steering would hunt and it took alot of attention to keep it straight.
    With some advice from Hindsight, I pulled apart the front LCA and spun the rear attachment pin by 180 degrees. I already had the squiggle down to get as much caster as I could, but this added just a bit more.
    Up till now the max I could get was 3.5. With this adjustment I was able to dial it in to 5.5 degrees of caster.
    I have since re-aligned it and can say it drives like a different car. Straightline tracking is now firm and no hunting.
    This car is fun to drive and for me has been ultra reliable.
    Time to go and paint.....
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  23. #383
    Harley818's Avatar
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    This was the year of getting the body done.
    Last summer I drove the car around town and to work.
    It was reliable and fun.
    This year I spent the first part of the summer cleaning up the body panel joints, then drove it for another couple months.
    The last couple weeks I've been taking off the panels, cleaning them up and sanding with 600 grit.
    I'm happy with the look and fit and will be painting it in the next couple weeks.
    818 sanded.jpg

    I also had a bit of an issue with my alignment. At about 60mph the steering would hunt and it took alot of attention to keep it straight.
    With some advice from Hindsight, I pulled apart the front LCA and spun the rear attachment pin by 180 degrees. I already had the squiggle down to get as much caster as I could, but this added just a bit more.
    Up till now the max I could get was 3.5. With this adjustment I was able to dial it in to 5.5 degrees of caster.
    I have since re-aligned it and can say it drives like a different car. Straightline tracking is now firm and no hunting.
    This car is fun to drive and for me has been ultra reliable.
    Time to go and paint.....
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  24. #384
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    Hmm... what is this rear attachment pin you speak of... I did my front controls so long ago i can't remember
    sti lca.PNG

  25. #385
    Senior Member EODTech87's Avatar
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    I believe he’s talking about the black rod that attaches the LCA to the rear bushing. Take the 2 bolts out, flip it over, and bolt it back on.

  26. #386
    Harley818's Avatar
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    Robert, EOD is right, its the black rod attaching the LCA to the rear bushing.
    It makes a big difference.
    Some people are also adding a 6mm spacer at this location, but I am happy with just flipping it over.
    Harley
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  27. #387
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    I did the spacer but I'm still short on caster... I might try this. Thanks for the tip!

  28. #388
    Harley818's Avatar
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    I am still working away on my car.
    Got it on the road to drive for 3 months in the summer of 2017
    Worked on the body last spring, drove it again for 3 mo in the summer 2018
    Now got it painted.....looks like a different car.
    I removed all the panels, had them painted by a local friend. It is the 2016 Corvette Cyber Grey Metallic. Code WA637R.
    The colour looks different depending on the angle and the amount of light. Then with sunlight you see the green, blue and gold flecks.
    Two base coats, one clear coat.
    paint 1.jpg
    paint 2.jpg
    paint 3.jpg
    paint 4.jpg
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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  30. #389
    Harley818's Avatar
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    The parts fit awesome when I went to put them back on.
    I used a 1/16 in strip of Buna-n (edited) rubber between the body panels and the joints look OEM. It also protects the paint from rubbing together between the panels.

    It looked pretty good in white..... but I am loving the cyber grey. Looks 100% better.
    paint 5.jpg
    paint 6.jpg
    paint 7.jpg
    paint 8.jpg

    Then added Fiberglass sideskirts covered with carbon fiber wrap.
    side skirts.jpg

    Now I am working on the interior. Following Andrew's lead and I'll be using the BRZ interior door panels. We will see how that works out this spring.
    Back on the road by the time May hits here.
    Last edited by Harley818; 02-07-2019 at 05:55 PM.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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  32. #390

    Yes, I love Technology
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    Harley, love that paint. Great choice. Can you elaborate just a bit on your rubber strips between body panels. What exactly you bought and maybe a picture of it if you have any you can share. Sounds like what I'd like to do someday...

  33. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by aquillen View Post
    Harley, love that paint. Great choice. Can you elaborate just a bit on your rubber strips between body panels. What exactly you bought and maybe a picture of it if you have any you can share. Sounds like what I'd like to do someday...
    Hi Art,
    I used a 2 in. wide Buna-n rubber strip with adhesive back from Mcmaster Carr - part number below.
    I cut it into 1/2 in strips and used it on all the lips where the hood and trunks rest. Worked great and sticks well. Buna-n is great for oil and fuel resistance.
    Then I stuck it on the joint between the front bumper and fenders and trimmed it to fit, then used a sharp piece of tubing to cut out holes for the 1/4 in throughbolts at that connection.
    I'll take a close up pic tonight and post it.

    Line Product Ordered Shipped Balance Price Total
    1 9028K523
    High-Strength Oil-Resistant Buna-N Rubber Strip with Adhesive-Back, 2" x 36", 1/16" Thick 6 for 74.22
    Last edited by Harley818; 02-07-2019 at 05:57 PM.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  34. #392
    Senior Member mikeb75's Avatar
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    Beautiful!
    818SC chassis #206 EJ207 2.0L VF37 twin scroll || Cusco type RS 1.5 LSD || Wilwood pedal box (firewall attach) || Wilwood superlite front calipers
    BUILD Phase 1: 6/6/2014 car delivered || 5/24/2015 first start || 6/7/2015 go karted || 4/20/2016 hard-top-topped || 10/25/2016 registered || 11/18/2016 inspected & complete
    BUILD Phase 2: 3/8/2017 EJ207v8 || 5/29/2017 re-first re-start || 7/17/2017 re-assembled with race car bits

  35. #393
    Senior Member metros's Avatar
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    That color looks good. I'd like to see some of the finished pictures of it in sunlight when you get the opportunity. Nicely done!

  36. #394
    Harley818's Avatar
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    Thanks guys,
    Here are a couple close-ups of the body joints with the Buna-n between.
    Sorry but the car is a little dusty.
    Front joint bumper to fender.....
    IMG_1535.jpg
    IMG_1534.jpg
    Rear bumper to side sail.....
    IMG_1537.jpg
    strips along lip for front hood
    IMG_1538.jpg
    Last edited by Harley818; 02-07-2019 at 10:59 PM.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

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  38. #395
    Harley818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metros View Post
    That color looks good. I'd like to see some of the finished pictures of it in sunlight when you get the opportunity. Nicely done!

    Metros, soon as it gets sunny and I can roll her outside I'll be taking pics and posting.
    Right now its uncharacteristically cold here and supposed to snow tonight .... -7 C (20F)
    Not often we go below freezing here.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  39. #396
    Senior Member STiPWRD's Avatar
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    Leesburg, VA
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    1,624
    Post Thanks / Like
    Great color selection, it turned out awesome! I was also considering a charcoal grey like this for an understated, stealthy look.

  40. #397
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    2,374
    Post Thanks / Like
    beautiful! Thanks for the Buna-n tip.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  41. #398
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Bowling Green, KY
    Posts
    1,382
    Post Thanks / Like
    Nice, the car looks fantastic and looking forward to seeing your finished interior.

  42. #399
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    3,402
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just now seeing this..... looks fantastic! I love the color. Very similar color as to what I was going to do if I ever got around to painting mine.

  43. #400
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Strathroy, Ontario Canada
    Posts
    479
    Post Thanks / Like
    Cyber gray the same as mine. it is a great color

    new 818 052.JPG

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