Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[Sgt.Gator]

I copied this from the Corvette Forum. My C6 Z06 LS7 has a dry sump system so maybe I find it more interesting than ya'll but it still goes to oil system cooling and dry sump issues:
<<<>>>

grcor asked:
For many years GM has used radiators with an engine oil cooler inside left tank for trucks, SUVs, and in the Corvette 2005-2007 Z51s. This method of cooling engine oil works well and has the added benefit of warming the engine oil during warm up. It also keeps engine room congestion and the number of plumbing connections to a minimum.

The 2006 – 2010 Z06s use a large air/oil cooler mounted in front of the radiator. This method of oil cooling works well at the track, but in normal street driving it keeps the oil too cold. On a 50 to 60 degree day, it is common to see oil temperatures in the 120 to 140 range (DIC). The DIC is reading oil temperature from the bottom of the external reservoir, the oil first travels to the oil pump, then thru to the oil filter then thru to the oil cooler before it enters the engine. So the temperature of the oil entering the engine is even colder than what the DIC says. What is the optimum oil temperature for a LS7?

The 2011-2013 Z06s, 2009-2013 ZR1s, and C7 Z51s/Z06s use a coolant/oil cooler assembly to cool/warm engine oil. This method needs to have a coolant line plumbed from the block to the cooler assembly and from the cooler assembly to the radiator. The cooler assembly and extra plumbing would seem to add to engine room congestion and increased potential of coolant leaks as time goes on.

The current Camaro Z28 uses a bigger coolant/oil cooler assembly than the Corvettes.

Can you please tell us the advantages and disadvantages of each oil cooling approach from an engineering point of view and why you changed the oil cooling approach so many times?

Tadge answered:
To answer this question I consulted with Richard Quinn, our powertrain cooling development engineer who has a long history on Corvette cooling development:

In the early stages of designing a performance engine, we make allowances to divert a portion of the lube system oil flow for cooling. Engineers evaluate different ways to extract the heat energy required and select the best one for the application based on a number of factors. As you’ve pointed out, we’ve taken different approaches over the years on Corvette and each one had specific benefits for the powertrain and chassis at the time.

I mention the chassis as an important factor because throughout modern Corvette history and especially the last three generations, the performance envelope of the car has seen a steady, continuous increase. As cornering capability has improved, we’ve modified our lubrication and cooling strategy to match.

The earliest oil cooler you mention - the radiator end-tank style in the C6 Z51, removed 3.5kW of heat from the oil and deposited it into the main engine coolant system. The downsides of this method are the relatively small capacity limit and the oil-side restriction penalty. Moving any fraction of the oil from the engine to the radiator takes away from the main goal of the lubrication system which is first and foremost to supply the bottom end (main bearings) with good oil pressure. But in the Z51 package, the tradeoff was favorable and the cooling adequate for the operating envelope of the LS2 engine.

With the introduction of the C6 Z06 we had a chassis and tire package that allowed us to put much more power to the ground, compounded by an LS7 engine that loved to spin. Those elements drove us to add a much higher oil cooling capacity (roughly 16Kw) than an end-tank cooler could provide, so an air-to-oil cooler was selected as a ‘big hammer’ solution for the dry-sump motors, chosen for its ability to cool better at higher vehicle speeds. We made a conscious decision to go that route, as there are several downsides to air-to-oil coolers. They add airflow restriction, which reduces the effectiveness of the main radiator and impacts AC performance. There is unwanted oil-side restriction which takes some pressure potential from the main bearings. And as you mention, on cold days the oil will always be somewhat over-cooled. (Overcooling oil isn’t the worst thing, but it costs some fuel efficiency as colder oil has higher viscosity and more friction loss.) But for a car as track-oriented as the C6 Z06, this was the right trade-off to make, using a balanced take-off valve to bleed just enough oil to the cooler to satisfy cooling needs.

In the spirit of continuous improvement, in the 2009 ZR1 we increased oil cooler capacity further. We also needed to maintain higher main bearing oil pressure to support the huge horsepower increase of the LS9. That drove us to integrate the oil cooler as a liquid-liquid heat exchanger mounted as part of the engine assembly- a triple benefit, with more kW of heat rejection (almost 20Kw), reduced oil-side restriction, and elimination of the front-end airflow blockage of the previous air/oil cooler. This option also reduced the plumbing complexity, with only one small coolant circuit leaving the engine block to return to the main radiator coolant circuit. The downside is that the main radiator has to reject the heat extracted by this cooler, but the tradeoff is overall a net positive. We’ve been very happy with the integrated liquid-liquid oil cooler ever since we adopted it, as it has been a win-win over all of the previous alternatives in terms of capacity, restriction, and the ability to better regulate normal operating temperatures.

The Z/28 Camaro presented a unique challenge, with higher mass and gear ratios selected to carry very high RPM on track. It required a capacity increase in the liquid-liquid cooler system, and the team added a supplemental air/oil coolant radiator dedicated to providing colder water to the engine oil cooler. This had a double benefit of reducing bulk coolant temp and oil temp, but with a tradeoff consequence of added complexity and added mass.

As the Corvette chassis improves and continues to drive more lateral loads through the lubrication system, we are challenged to keep up with the increasing demand of racetrack use. We’ve gone from 3.5kW of oil cooling in the C6 Z51 to 21kW in today’s C7 Z06. You can be confident we’ll continue along this path as Corvette performance improvements dictate it.

<<<>>>

And Chad I know you hate Corvettes, but maybe I can be an exception?

[C.Plavan]

It's an unwritten rule. Porsche guys can't like Corvettes.

[Sgt.Gator]

I hooked up a vacuum gauge.
The setup:
Sealed engine. I disconnected the line that runs from the engine vents to the DS Tank, attached the vacuum gauge and plugged the line.
OBX Underdrive Crank Pulley.
4" dry sump pump pulley that came with the kit.

93 degree Oil:



183 degree oil, 2400 rpm:


172 degrees, 3500 RPM:



180 degrees, 5700 PM:




I'm VERY pleased with these numbers. If I can stay in vacuum out on the track under a full turbo boost load I'll disconnect the line entirely from the DS Tank and leave it looped on the engine vents.

The track test will be Monday.

[C.Plavan]

Good luck on Monday. I really curious to see what happens. It's really nice not being the only one trying things out! I'll be going out on Friday for my testing. Hopefully my Tuner will send me an updated map soon!

[Sgt.Gator]

This will be a long update, but it has a happy ending!

The 6" DS pulley did not work, at least not for a LGT. It could be made to work on a 818, the difference being the power steering pump. I won't go into details because I did more garage testing and decided I didn't need it. If anyone wants to know more I can explain, but I'd rather get straight to the solution.

Sunday I changed my oil and switched to Valvoline VR1 Racing 20W50 conventional. They also make the same oil in a synthetic with blue color, but from looking at the specs the only difference I could find was the synthetic has a lower viscosity at 40 Centigrade. However I can buy the conventional for $6.30 at OReilly's and Autozone, but the synthetic is $9.60 at NAPA.
Why did I switch? Well I did a search for anti foaming oils and it was the one that kept popping up. And I figured as hot as we are running a 50 weight would be better anyway, and might solve my low rpm oil pressure.
When I changed the oil I replaced with 6 quarts of the VR1. I did this in case I had too much oil and it wasn't actually draining thru the baffles in the oil tank with enough force to release the air. There was still probably a quart of Mobil1 0W40 Euro Spec in the bottom of the DS Tank, lines, the oil cooler, and the engine all together. I'm going to make a dip stick so I can more accurately gauge how much oil is in the tank.

So out to ORP.

The setup:
4" pulley that came with the kit.
OBX underdrive crank pulley.
VR1 Racing 20W50 with "enhanced anti foaming".
Engine is sealed up, I have a vacuum/boost gauge temporarily taped to the dash.

The air temp was about 80 for the first session.
The boost was set at 13psi, wastegate on my Bloch 1.5XTR with EWG.


First session, warm up for 30 minutes, hit the track for 30 minutes:



While actually running on the track my water temp never got over 200! And the oil never exceeded 226!


Second session, these are individual laps laid over each other, the two "hottest" laps. The air is about 90, the track asphalt is 125. Boost still at 13psi.



Again water temps never go over 200, the oil temp is at 226. Sweet!

Last session, mid afternoon:
Boost remapped to 17psi.
The air is in mid 90's.
The track temp is 135 degrees.
This is the stress test!

The two hottest oil temp laps overlaid:



Yahoo!!!!! I'll take 236 degress in these conditions!!


And now for all the experts who say two scavenge stages is not enough to pull vacuum on a Subaru. Well apparently they never tried, at least not with a stock clearanced shortblock!
I had 12" of vacuum some of the time, 10" most of the time, at 6K and above it would drop to 8". Sometimes I saw 15". I NEVER saw less than 8" of vacuum. Here's a screen shot from my video, it's hard to see the gauge because of the lighting, I had to catch it just as the sun was on it:



That means I can remove the line that runs from the vents to the DS tank, which means if I should ever add one of Chad's Spintric devices I have a port on the tank ready. What I have left over on the engine is the rear cam cover vents balanced with the OEM venting tubes to the block, and a repeat of the front cam cover vents to the crankcase thru the old PCV vent in the block.

HAPPY Dance! HAPPY DANCE!!!:

One last note, it is very easy to crush part of the ORing on the Peterson DS tank if you take it apart and re-assemble. I did and my tank has a slow leak. I've ordered 3 rings air shipped asap so I can race this weekend at Portland International. That will be the final test.

[Mitch Wright]

Congratulations and great news, thank you for blazing the trail.

[C.Plavan]

You know I have 3 cases of that oil sitting on my shelf for the 911...... I thought about trying it, but I was thinking about the heat and turbo etc.....lol

So you basically looped the two cam breathers hoses together, then just plugged the the rear crank case port (pcv area)? Thats all I have to do? I'm a little confused.

What size (Row) oil cooler do you have? I'm thinking since I have two 19 row up front in the clean air, I may not need my rear one anymore.

Now I'm wondering if I go out with the 0/40 oil and the Spintric, or go VR1 with Spintric on Friday. Hmmmmmmm


Oil Dipstick: I mounted it near the tank in a hose sheath. They make one for our tank, pricey but it works well.

[Sgt.Gator]

Congratulations and great news, thank you for blazing the trail.

Thanks for sticking with us!

You know I have 3 cases of that oil sitting on my shelf for the 911...... I thought about trying it, but I was thinking about the heat and turbo etc.....lol

So you basically looped the two cam breathers hoses together, then just plugged the the rear crank case port (pcv area)? Thats all I have to do? I'm a little confused.

Now I'm wondering if I go out with the 0/40 oil and the Spintric, or go VR1 with Spintric on Friday. Hmmmmmmm

The rear cam breathers are tied together thru the oem balance system into the crank case.

The front cam breathers tie together with a tee that goes to the PCV crankcase vent. Specifically it's 1/2" rubber lines from each cam breather to the middle 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 tee> 1/2" x 3/4" reducer > 3/4" to the PCV vent.

If the head fills with oil, the oil has two paths out of the head that both first dump back into the crankcase. Everyone said that wouldn't work because blow by would be shooting crankcase vapors out of the crankcase so the oil couldn't drain in. However I have proven that at least with stock clearances and turbo pressures under 18 psi that's not the case. The engine never has positive pressure that needs to vent, it's under vacuum so the oil will drop into the crankcase, and if even more oil comes into the lines than can flow into the crankcase, it will next go over to the opposite head, then under vacuum back to the scavenge pan.

The added benefit is with the engine under vacuum the DS pump has less air to deal with, less air to entrain into the oil as it spins thru the pump, less foaming. With an open system the scavenge is pulling a lot of air in with the oil and pumping them both thru the DS pump.

LOL about having the oil on hand for your Porsche! Did you install an underdrive crank pulley? I'm pretty sure the oil and the Spintric will do the job. The underdrive would be extra insurance and reduce stress on your alternator and the DS pump.

At 6-7 quarts per change I can't afford Mobil 1 Racing 0W-50 ($20/Quart) which would be the best of all worlds if it has as much anti foam as the VR1. If you look at the graphs, it took 20 minutes to get the oil warm enough to flow well. The Mobil1 starts at 0W.......but it would cost $140 to change the oil after every race!

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for sticking with us!



The rear cam breathers are tied together thru the oem balance system into the crank case.

The front cam breathers tie together with a tee that goes to the PCV crankcase vent. Specifically it's 1/2" rubber lines from each cam breather to the middle 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 tee> 1/2" x 3/4" reducer > 3/4" to the PCV vent.

So I can basically just plug the hose I have going to my oil tank right? I can throw a -12 AN cap on the tank, and on the hose. I may try that at the track, after trying it the way I have it now.

What size cooler do you have? (row)

[Sgt.Gator]

So I can basically just plug the hose I have going to my oil tank right? I can throw a -12 AN cap on the tank, and on the hose. I may try that at the track, after trying it the way I have it now.

What size cooler do you have? (row)

Yes on the -12AN caps, that's what I did. Today I'll remove the line and and run the 3/4" direct into the PCV vent. I already have the -12AN cap on the tank. I was using plastic tees but they are starting to deform from the heat. When I have metal tees and and a metal 90 with a 1/8" NPT vacuum/boost fitting installed to a gauge on the dash I'll post up pics.

My oil cooler is very small, a narrow 13 row, and compact. No fan, air is ducted from a NACA duct:

https://www.holley.com/products/plum...parts/21300ERL

The Earl's coolers are nice because the -AN fittings can be swapped out for different sizes.

It's probably a little too small. If I step up I'll get a narrow 25 row and mount it sideways. Or invest in a Spintric, depending on how that works for you. If you stay with 0-40 oil and the Spintric does the job I may follow your lead and go back to the 0-40 Euro Spec + Spintric. But that reintroduces the low RPM oil pressure, which is now gone with the 20W50 VR1. The VR1 Synthetic might be the middle ground and still half the cost of Mobil1 Racing.

And I have the oem water/oil heater/cooler too.

Nice dip stick! I'll probably just put marks on a piece of aluminum or steel rod though.

I have a couple of other ideas for reducing the foaming. I've been reading about industrial equipment oil de-aerators and de foamers. They use two additional principles:

1) Some use a #60 mesh screen in the tank to give the bubbles a matrix to form on and release. So a simple mod would be adding some screen in manner that has the oil flowing thru it.

2) And there are some that work on the same idea of the Spintric, forcing the oil out to the wall and letting the air release in the center. The Peterson tank sort of tries to do that, but I think I may have a better method.

Here is the Peterson baffle:




There is an industrial system that starts the spin at the top of a funnel shape, as the oil spins down the funnel it flows thru perforations in the funnel, releasing the air up a center column.



So combining these ideas into a device that replaces the Peterson baffles with a funnel column that has a screen in it, and a released air shaft up the middle.

I think I could make them for less than the cost of a Spintric. Or I could waste a lot of time when the Spintric already does the job better!

[C.Plavan]

Yeah- I'm not sure what to try now.

0-40 with Spintric, VR1 with Spintric, with/without plugging the vent. So many choices. I guess I could change the oil at the track to VR1 if needed to try it out. Capping is easy also.

What do you think I should try first?

1. Run it like I have it with Spintric installed with the 0w/40
2. Cap breathers off with the -12 caps and run it like it is
3. Change to VR1 and run it with Spintric
4. Change to VR1 and cap off breathers

My head is spinning. lol

[FFRSpec72]

This will be a long update, but it has a happy ending!

I guess I will see you this weekend at PIR and take a look at your setup, still not sure if I will run a dry sump or not.

[Sgt.Gator]

Yeah- I'm not sure what to try now.

0-40 with Spintric, VR1 with Spintric, with/without plugging the vent. So many choices. I guess I could change the oil at the track to VR1 if needed to try it out. Capping is easy also.

What do you think I should try first?

1. Run it like I have it with Spintric installed with the 0w/40
2. Cap breathers off with the -12 caps and run it like it is
3. Change to VR1 and run it with Spintric
4. Change to VR1 and cap off breathers

My head is spinning. lol

See my Edited post above.

My vote. Since it's not a race you can afford to experiment. I hope you do the Spintric + 40W first.

If that fails, cap the lines. You won't have to wait two hours for things to cool off to do that. You should probably leave the lines capped permanently, but you should verify with a vacuum boost gauge exactly what is happening on your engine.

If still not there, wait until the oil cools off enough so you don't burn the heck out of yourself and switch to the VR1.

[Sgt.Gator]

I guess I will see you this weekend at PIR and take a look at your setup, still not sure if I will run a dry sump or not.

I won't be at the test and tune, but I'll arrive around 2:00 PM Friday. They are opening the main gate entrance for us early to get across the track even though the T&T will be running. Will you have your 818R ??? I hope!

[FFRSpec72]

I won't be at the test and tune, but I'll arrive around 2:00 PM Friday. They are opening the main gate entrance for us early to get across the track even though the T&T will be running. Will you have your 818R ??? I hope!

I will get there early Saturday morning. I will just have the challenge car, not the 818 as it still has some minor (time consuming) work to do, but it should see end of season track time, most likely at Pacific with SCCA

[RetroRacing]

See you both there, we are the idiots with the 5 rx7's and the one rx3.....

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad if you are worried about the vacuum/positive aspect, you can leave your line hooked up but add this:



One Way Valve - Inline Pop Off

Breather assembly is installed in line from engine's crankcase. Valve seals engine from air entering engine, but opens in the event of crankcase pressure, allowing crankcase to vent.

08-1440 Inline Pop Off -12 AN

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

[C.Plavan]

Chad if you are worried about the vacuum/positive aspect, you can leave your line hooked up but add this:



One Way Valve - Inline Pop Off

Breather assembly is installed in line from engine's crankcase. Valve seals engine from air entering engine, but opens in the event of crankcase pressure, allowing crankcase to vent.

08-1440 Inline Pop Off -12 AN

http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

I'm betting I could just use this for half the cost.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220195b/overview/

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm betting I could just use this for half the cost.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220195b/overview/

Yep, same thing. Good find. Although it's a flapper valve, may not work well for air. A big PCV valve (ball valves usually) would work too.

[C.Plavan]

Yep, same thing. Good find. Although it's a flapper valve, may not work well for air. A big PCV valve (ball valves usually) would work too.

Hmm not sure if it will work now. I called Peterson. Their's is a metal valve (kinda like an exhaust valve with a 2 lbs spring), The other is a PTFE flapper valve. Yeah- I'm not sure if the PTFE flapper could handle the vacuum or not.

[Sgt.Gator]

Hmm not sure if it will work now. I called Peterson. Their's is a metal valve (kinda like an exhaust valve with a 2 lbs spring), The other is a PTFE flapper valve. Yeah- I'm not sure if the PTFE flapper could handle the vacuum or not.

Best to stick with what Peterson has spec'd for this type system. I'm going to monitor with a $10 gauge on sale at Summit. If I ever see positive pressure I'll make changes.



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sun-cp8213/overview/

[Zach34]

Yeah- I'm not sure what to try now.

0-40 with Spintric, VR1 with Spintric, with/without plugging the vent. So many choices. I guess I could change the oil at the track to VR1 if needed to try it out. Capping is easy also.

What do you think I should try first?

1. Run it like I have it with Spintric installed with the 0w/40
2. Cap breathers off with the -12 caps and run it like it is
3. Change to VR1 and run it with Spintric
4. Change to VR1 and cap off breathers

My head is spinning. lol

If I may inject from the peanut gallery - how about only one change at a time, and starting with the simplest (cap the breathers)? It would be good to know just how important the low-foaming oil is vs the plumbing, not to mention whether or not the Spintric works and/or makes up for other flaws.

[biknman]

Hmm not sure if it will work now. I called Peterson. Their's is a metal valve (kinda like an exhaust valve with a 2 lbs spring), The other is a PTFE flapper valve. Yeah- I'm not sure if the PTFE flapper could handle the vacuum or not.

This is what I've done it's in place of my oil filler neck on Driver Valve cover. I also use a "mini" DS oil tank for a AOS vented back to the the main oil tank no problems: http://www.timeattackforums.com/foru...-dry-sump.html

[Sgt.Gator]

This is what I've done it's in place of my oil filler neck on Driver Valve cover. I also use a "mini" DS oil tank for a AOS vented back to the the main oil tank no problems: http://www.timeattackforums.com/foru...-dry-sump.html

Dave,
Thanks for the link. Nice work on saving $$$ for your system. Especially on the hand made dry sump pan! I like yours better than the ARE:

I noticed an "expert" insists that you can't run a two stage scavenge on a Subaru and get enough vacuum because the crankcase positive pressure will overcome it and the heads "must" have their own scavenge stages. <Again!>. I guess Cosworth Engineering never tested that theory, nor did the expert.

Has your regulator ever vented positive pressure? Do you have a vacuum/boost gauge connected to it?


I saw this Subaru powered Radical for sale at Radical USA cars for sale webpage. If you look close in the top pic you'll see the dry sump lines coming off the pump. They are angled forward which is the way the Cosworth pump is setup.



Cosworth pump setups:


Back to the Radical:




Only $65K for a used Radical....

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad, Good Luck at the track! Let us know.
I'll be at Portland International racing Saturday and Sunday.
Should be a good test weekend for the dry sumps.

[FFRSpec72]

I won't be at the test and tune, but I'll arrive around 2:00 PM Friday. They are opening the main gate entrance for us early to get across the track even though the T&T will be running. Will you have your 818R ??? I hope!

So I see you finished on Sunday w/o issue, I went out on Saturday with a cam/distributor gear issue and had to pull the engine. Seems Sunday's race was a cluster with timing going down and the various offs and blown engines, etc. How did the dry sump work ?

[Sgt.Gator]

So I see you finished on Sunday w/o issue, I went out on Saturday with a cam/distributor gear issue and had to pull the engine. Seems Sunday's race was a cluster with timing going down and the various offs and blown engines, etc. How did the dry sump work ?

Yikes on your engine! Did you see that Kurt Wikstrom blew the engine in his Corvette as he took the checkered flag! It was a mess. He did a great job getting off the racing line so that no one else spun out in his oil slick.

Are you going to the Mission Raceway races? I'm debating it. I've missed so much of this year I may just make the long trip from Bend to British Columbia....

All weekend the Dry Sump was doing doing almost perfect. I say almost because it still gets a little hotter than I would like. In the big test, the 30 minute race on Sunday, it was 88 degrees and smokey as nasty heck from the forest fires. The oil temps worked up to 240-244 and plateaued there. That's an acceptable temp in racing conditions for sure.
I did notice that if I short shifted at 5500 to 6000 rpm I could drop the oil temps consistently 5 degrees in the course of one lap. That's really not much of a performance hit in speed because my dyno graph has such a wide HP/TQ curve. I can run in the 4000 to 6000 rpm range with no problem. The engine will probably last longer if I do that....I'll change the AIM lights on my dash to start indicating time to shift 500 rpm lower across the range.

However that indicates (I think) that the problem is RPM related, either in the engine or in how fast the DS pump is spinning. With my underdrive crank pulley and the standard DS pump pulley I'm still spinning the pump slightly faster than crank speed and possibly causing the extra heat above 6K RPM. For those of us with the 2.5 L engine this is ok. For the builders using the 2.0L and hoping to spin to 8K I think they will have to source a 6" pump pulley + the underdrive crank. Of course we won't know for sure until a 2.0L builder tries it.

On the vacuum/scavenge/pressure issue, the sealed engine worked great. I never saw more than 14" of vacuum, nor any less than 2" of vacuum. And the 2" only occurs at more than 6200+ RPM, which in practical terms is only for a second or two. There was never positive crankcase pressure. Typically I'd glance at it and see 8" of vacuum, which is perfect. See for more info on vacuum: http://nutterracingengines.com/racin...uum_facts.html

My lap times were down significantly from my qualifying laps because I changed out my tires to some newer but smaller tires. They cost me at least 4 seconds and one near accident when my rear tires slid out!

The biggest concern now is my 6 speed tranny temp. My tranny cooler system slows down the heat, but by the last lap I was up to 270 degrees. My diff temp never goes over 195 degrees whether I run the pump or not, so I may remove the diff cooler and double up the tranny cooler. I also need to pressure test the tranny pump cooler and make sure it's working within spec.

Hope to see you at the The Ridge with your 818R!

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm betting I could just use this for half the cost.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220195b/overview/

Chad the Summit catalog in print version says these are good for 1500 psi and 400 degrees. With a 2 psi cracking pressure, and methanol/chemical resistant. So they probably would work.

[killerbmotorsport]

Glad to hear you've got this sorted out and making events!

I've not seen a 2-stage pull this much vacuum, definitely not 8" under racing conditions, although you did mention being down to 2" above 6,200. 2" is what you see on a wet sump, in boost, and a wee bit more with a bigger turbocharger.

It would be interesting to see the vacuum numbers with a 40 weight oil typically used on track with an OEM block. Also, as the engine wears these numbers will deteriorate, but any well planned rebuild schedule will deal with that just fine.

I'm still holding with my vacuum regulator recommendation. Anything over ~10" you're not gaining anything except increased parasitic losses as there is definitely a sweet spot to shoot for. It may even help a bit with oil temps. Keep in mind when you're looking at sites offering advise like nutterracing, they are discussing circle/oval track v-8s. Theories are the same, but the practical figures will not always follow when comparing a V-8 to a H4.

[Rasmus]

Note to self: I should of just bought the complete ARE setup instead of this Element Tuning mixed bag of parts.

Reading about your troubles getting a system together makes me just want to get the full ARE setup and be done with it.

[Sgt.Gator]

Reading about your troubles getting a system together makes me just want to get the full ARE setup and be done with it.

Personally I'll go Cosworth next time. I like the pan better than the ARE pan. The only pieces missing are the tank, hoses, fittings, which no one makes as a kit for an 818 anyway.

[Rasmus]

Gator

Have you shopped the prices for both kits? I'm curious.

I hesitate to go Cosworth because every single product seems to come with a $1,000 surcharge just for the privilege. Is the pan the only reason you'd go Cosworth?

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator

Have you shopped the prices for both kits? I'm curious.
I hesitate to go Cosworth because every single product seems to come with a $1,000 surcharge just for the privilege. Is the pan the only reason you'd go Cosworth?

Yep, I got a quote for the ARE kit before I bought the Element kit. And I can buy the Cosworth kit at wholesale so it's a bit cheaper than the advertised retail prices.

Besides the pan I like the way the pump angles the lines to the front of the engine (see pics above). They also include a pressure regulator and the STI A/C bracket the pump mounts to. I had to buy the STI bracket because my LGT A/C bracket wouldn't work, and of course because it's an STI bracket it was way more expensive than it should have been.

The full ARE kit is a good deal.

No matter how you cut it the Cosworth is the most expensive. However I think it's the best engineered system.

When I build my 818R I'll probably go with either a 2.5 NA engine using either the Cosworth system, or swap the Element system I have now in the LGT to the 818R and go back to a standard wet sump in the LGT, or go EZ36 H6 and make a custom dry sump pan for it, in which case I'll piece together parts from ARE/Peterson/Avaid. A friend of mine is building a Honda truck engine powered Miata and has 3D scanned up a dry sump pan for it. After watching his progress I'm pretty confidant we could build a nice dry sump pan for the EZ30 -EZ36.

I also have the FRS/BRZ 4U-GSE /FA20 engine on my list. Plenty of aftermarket support including the ECUTEK ProECU tuning system.

One thing I can't recall seeing addressed yet is if the mandrel that sticks off the front (crank pulley) of the Cosworth and ARE kits will fit in the space between the engine and firewall in an 818. The Element Tuning idea of using the A/C drive ring on the crank pulley is the most compact way to setup the pump drive and Chad has shown it fits fine in his 818. Is there room for the drive mandrel?

I'm sure that with an EZ36 we'd have to use the A/C ring.

But if I were starting from scratch with no investment in a bunch of dry sump parts already I would go Cosworth. As long as the mandrel drive will fit in an 818!

[Mulry]

I'm in the middle of specifying and ordering the dry sump for our EJ20, but I'm keeping close track of the parts ordered and the cost. I'm getting some of it from ARE and the rest all over the web. I'll disclose all of it once we've gotten everything figured out, but by buying good used parts off eBay when possible and trying to find good prices, it looks like we will be able to have a full dry sump system -- 2 suction stages, 1 pressure stage -- with a Spintric for under $3k, not including the cost of lines and fittings yet. That part of the equation can really add up.

One part that I'm looking for but haven't been able to find yet is an adapter/block off for the oil filter so that we can use that as an input for the oil coming from the pressure side of the pump. There is one from Peterson that shows up on a NASIOC post, but I cant' find it on their website. I've got an inquiry out to them on that but if anybody knows of one, I'd love to hear it, as that's the last loose end for me until I have the oil pump mounted and can order the appropriate mandrels for the crank and the oil pump. Cheers.

[Wayne Presley]

One part that I'm looking for but haven't been able to find yet is an adapter/block off for the oil filter so that we can use that as an input for the oil coming from the pressure side of the pump. There is one from Peterson that shows up on a NASIOC post, but I cant' find it on their website. I've got an inquiry out to them on that but if anybody knows of one, I'd love to hear it, as that's the last loose end for me until I have the oil pump mounted and can order the appropriate mandrels for the crank and the oil pump. Cheers.

Mishimoto makes it. I can get them.

[Mulry]

Mishimoto makes it. I can get them.

Cool. Just emailed you.

[Wayne Presley]

Like this? You still use the stock filter and plug the outlet.


http://www.mishimoto.com/oil-sandwic...20-silver.html

[Mulry]

Not exactly. I have a sandwich plate already, but I'll run a remote oil filter so that we can put a big Wix 4 in the lubrication path. This is more like what I'm looking for:

img_1789-2.jpg

[Wayne Presley]

Ah, the Peterson is the only one I've seen.

[mikeb75]

could you use a Canton Racing 90* oil filter remote adapter?
https://www.cantonracingproducts.com...-ADAPTER-20MM/