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Thread: Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

  1. #761
    Sgt.Gator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Wright View Post
    Gator, have you been able to finish up your 818R and plan to have it out this spring?
    99% complete yes. I need to change out the driver seat. The Kirkey is too difficult to get a back brace to work with our firewall. And the belts need to be re-placed and the mounts re-configured. This March/April I will be doing a lot of aero pressure and flow testing in the 818R. I've spent a lot of time looking at the 60s - 70s - 80s LeMans race cars and the aerodynamics lessons learned there. I'm thinking about how those lessons can be applied to the 818R.

    Next summer it will be competing in some dry weather races.
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  3. #762
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    Last edited by biknman; 01-25-2019 at 11:19 PM.
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  5. #763
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    The drill they are using to test it in that video isn't spinning very fast, and yet the pressure is almost instantly pegging out the >fuel< pressure gauge they are using at over 100 psi. I guess I hope there's a bypass, or something? Thoughts?

  6. #764
    Senior Member EODTech87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach34 View Post
    The drill they are using to test it in that video isn't spinning very fast, and yet the pressure is almost instantly pegging out the >fuel< pressure gauge they are using at over 100 psi. I guess I hope there's a bypass, or something? Thoughts?
    The gear reduction will slow down the speed of the pump and they’re doing the test with cold oil so I’m sure it will be ok. Biggest issue is going to be lack of room in front of the engine on the 818. Add that gear to the front and you might be hitting the frame. The cosworth dry sump uses the same type of setup.
    -Jason

  7. #765
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    I would not say the raised sections are crank scrapers. I would say these are dams to block and slow the sloshing of oil up into the heads. I think this is a really good design.
    Is there any consensus that Bill's plate is superior to KillerB's? How many are running them?
    Looking at the Saker pieces I would say they are along the lines of Roger Clark Motorsports or Cosworth pans.
    Lastly, RCM has made custom valve covers for their Gobstopper and their DS system. They don't offer them for sale. They put an AN fitting in the rear corner. Could be easily TIG'd into a stock cover. This is also what Chris, of KB recommends if you do DS. That you have a five pump scavenging system.

    Also EODTech87 , they may not have a pressure relief valve in that short-loop system they are running as a demo.
    Last edited by Scargo; 01-26-2019 at 09:20 AM. Reason: added comment
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  8. #766
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    Bill Walker can chime in with how may folks are using his plate. I have one of the first and have run 8+ track days with it. I believe it does to a better job of limiting the oil getting to the heads. I am basing this on my TMIC being dry with no trace oil. With the KB windage tray I would see a slight trace of oil making it to the IC.

  9. #767
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Does anyone have Bill Walker's contact information or can anyone get him to message me here or on FB? I am Glyn Churchman on FB. I'd like to buy some of his baffle plates.
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  10. #768
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    PM sent
    Discussion and photo's of Bill's plate and development process. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...p-system/page3
    [email protected].
    Last edited by Mitch Wright; 01-29-2019 at 11:14 AM.

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  12. #769
    Senior Member Hobby Racer's Avatar
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    Official web here:

    http://arctangentdesign.com/
    MK3.1 Roadster completed 2011
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  13. #770
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    I have never heard my car form the outside, if I do say so myself it sounds darn good on Bills video.

  14. #771
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Not reaching Bill Walker

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Wright View Post
    PM sent
    Discussion and photo's of Bill's plate and development process. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...p-system/page3
    [email protected].
    Tried [email protected] and [email protected] and they were kicked back. If anyone can roust Bill to respond to emails or PM's here I would appreciate it!
    Glyn
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  15. #772
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    It usually takes a few days to hear back when I e-mail him. I did talk to Bill a few weeks ago and he was going to be traveling.

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  17. #773
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    Has anyone used Bill's plate in conjunction with the KillerB windage tray? Looks like it's doable. Seems like a good combo.
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  18. #774
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    I debated weather to leave my KB windage tray, in the end I removed it. Bill had told me that it is designed to be used without it.
    Last edited by Mitch Wright; 02-02-2019 at 11:48 AM.

  19. #775
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    Hi all. Just wanted to give a big thanks for everyone who went the extra mile trying to track me down to purchase an Arctangent Oil Control Plate these last few months. My wife and I decided to try a winter in Phoenix, but my computer, my website, my webmail and just about everything else decided I had gone to another planet. A big thanks is in order for Mitch Wright and Wayne Presley for helping out. We're back home in Indy now, and things are back to normal. Sales are going quite well, and I hope to soon be advertising on various Subaru forums. Just about ready to order my wiring harness from iWire and my short block from IAG. Hope to have my build project on the front burner again soon and am looking forward to go-karting it early this summer.

  20. #776
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    Welcome back Bill.
    Great to hear that the oil control plate is selling well. I am not surprised, a quality part that fits and works for a fair price.

  21. #777
    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    We have completed fabrication and install of our custom dry sump system. Leak testing today. Will try to get photos for a longer narrative description.

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  23. #778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulry View Post
    We have completed fabrication and install of our custom dry sump system. ...
    Would love to see new ideas and components for a DIY system.
    "Scotty, give me all the TRACTION she's got!" Pictures of what I drive till 818R is finished

  24. #779
    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    The brief but short story of the development of our custom dry sump setup:

    Having followed the stories of lubrication failures on the Subaru motor in 818R application, and particularly on cars being raced on slicks, we investigated further. And since Porsche, the world’s most successful manufacturer of boxer racing engines, has been using dry sumps on all their motors since something like 1962, we decided that we would figure out how to build and install a full dry sump on our 818. The process, start to near-finish (since we proved concept last weekend) has taken about three years of dedicated (if hobbyist) effort. This obviously isn’t a full time job for us, but we had a lot of barriers to scale.

    Although there were ready-made (or mostly ready-made) kits on the market when we started, we weren’t happy with any of them or the results that other builders seemed to be having. We didn’t like the compromise of using a suction-only pump and the stock oil pump, and we liked the idea of being able to have control over oil pressure with a variable valve on the oil pump body so as to avoid the problems of too much pressure at WOT and not enough at idle. We determined that we wanted, at minimum, an oil pump with two suction and one pressure stages with an adjustable pressure bypass, and that the bypass needed to be readily accessible with the engine running in the chassis with the full body installed.

    We liked the Dailey Engineering setup with the pump integrated into the dry sump plate, but the two downsides to that were the high price and the need to do a custom exhaust header, which was (and remains) outside our expertise and capacity. In addition, being buried under the engine, it’s not easy to get to for pressure adjustment purposes.

    Thus, we determined that a full DIY setup was the only way to achieve all our goals. While a low-mount oil pump also primes more easily, having removed the A/C from the engine, the backside of the alternator bracket appeared to be the ideal place to locate a dry sump pump.

    In addition, we wanted to try to do this on as much of a budget as possible. We purchased the new parts that we needed from ARE (primarily the dry sump plate, crank geared-tooth pulley, oil pump pulley and Spintric). We were able to acquire a used NASCAR 5-stage oil pump off eBay and sent it to a dry sump oil pump shop to have it remanufactured into a three-stage pump (which was still $250 cheaper than new). We also got an ex-Sprint Cup remote oil filter mount and an ex-Sprint Cup oil tank from eBay, both of which were in acceptable condition (and very good condition once they received a little elbow grease and new rubber seals). The oil filter mount also came with a boss for an oil pressure sender and a boss and working oil temp sender as a small bonus. I had a Setrab oil cooler left over from a prior project. I think the only hardware part we bought new (other than the ARE components) is the oil breather catch tank.

    Next, we had to buy a huge mess of braided stainless AN hose for fluid conveyance everywhere, along with the associated hose ends and adapters. Most of these lines are either Earl’s or Summit stainless braid hose, but the two suction lines from the dry sump plate and the suction line from the oil tank to the oil pump are XRP ProPlus for its enhanced resistance to collapsing under suction.

    There were periodic holdups along the way when we would discover that we didn’t have enough length of some hose or hose ends at the correct angles; normal stuff, really. The biggest obstacle was that we needed to custom-design and fabricate the mounting hardware for the oil pump itself. In the end, that meant that I needed to learn to use CAD software for the design, then locate and learn to use a 3D printer for prototyping and fitment, and then locate and learn to use a vertical mill to accurately machine the mounts.

    Fortunately, there is a makerspace in Dallas called, fittingly, the Dallas MakerSpace. For a relatively nominal monthly fee, makers have access to 3D printers, a metal shop, and a machine shop, among other features. Most equipment requires some (or extensive) training, but with patience, all the doors come open. In addition, DMS has been able to acquire maker licensing for many design software packages. Thus, I started learning to design in Fusion 360 and then to print the prototype oil pump and mounting hardware in ABS plastic on DMS’s PolyPrinter 3D printers.

    Printing a full-scale replica of the oil pump allowed us to test fitment and design and prototype mounting hardware to ensure that the real deal would fit when we committed our design to metal. My guess is that we probably went through 5 or 6 different design iterations until we got a mount that we were satisfied would be strong enough to withstand what we were asking of it. Probably 2 major iterations and then 3-4 smaller ones as we fine-tuned locations, bolt sizing, etc.

    IMG_6734.jpg

    (It bears noting here that learning the CAD software and getting comfortable with printing parts has been the biggest upside of this part of the project. I have printed a lot of parts that are on the car now in non-structural applications, including a standoff for the fuel sender (nylon) that prevents fuel slosh from throwing off fuel level readings, aerodynamic aids, fuel pump mounting cage, etc. More than that, it’s opened up a thought process toward design and problem solving which has proved useful, and now I own a 3D printer. As I sit here typing this up, it’s printing a revision of the intake plenum for the oil cooler and a brace for the intake air filter and intake air tubing. It's also led down a pretty easy path to being able to use the CAD plasma cutting machine at DMS, which we've used on a couple of race car parts for this project and for our Lemons car)

    As we were getting the plastic prototype issues resolved, I moved on to getting trained on and learning to use the Bridgeport vertical mill. Getting certified on the mill permitted me to cut down the ears on the oil pump so that they would fit our needs, and then to precision machine the plate and the bracket assembly upon which the oil pump hangs. I’m sure I was way more anal-retentive than necessary with the DRO on the machine, but I wanted my parts to come out perfect. I’m not sure that they are perfect, but they did fit together correctly the first time and haven’t required modification to make the oil pump fit in its intended location.

    Once we had the machined parts, we were able to mount the oil pump. It is a tight fit in the backside of the alt motor mount, in front of the intake manifold and just short enough to not hit one of the cockpit firewall diagonals. The cogged belt that we originally acquired ended up being too long, so we found a shorter belt. Slight shimming of the mounting plate off the alt bracket appears to have gotten it to the correct tightness without a bound-to-fail tensioner.

    After testing the final mounting of the oil pump, it was time to finally cut and build all those hoses and figure out mounting locations for everything. The oil cooler and Spintric got mounted to the rear wing mount. The trans oil cooler will mount on the other side of the wing mount so that both get ducted air from the side pod cutouts (another 3D printed part) and exhaust out the back panel. Oil filter mount goes up higher to make it easy to change the oil filter and not have it in the path of danger from getting scraped by an accidental off-roading incident, which sometimes happens at race tracks.

    We finally got to the point of testing it this weekend. To our great relief, it worked in the first test without any leaks. We were not able to bring the system to great pressure using just a hand drill, so leaks may appear when we run the engine for the first time (or when we run it at full song on the track), but for now, a success:



    So, while I’m sure that we will have some troubleshooting in front of us, we’re very excited about where we are at on this part of the project. Here’s a couple photos of how it all fits in the chassis:

    IMG_6729.jpg

    IMG_6731.jpg

    Any questions? Just ask. Cheers.

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  26. #780
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    Hi: Good to see the progress and innovation. I wish I knew how to use a mill. I have a Spintric on my dry sump system as well. I learned a little bit about them after Chad and I went through some challenges. They separate liquid and foam by centrifugal force. However, the flow paths need to have pretty much the same pressure drop on the discharge as this is purely a mechanical device. The mistake I made on my car was having the spintric before the cooler so that the "foam" leg returned to the top of the oil reservoir and the liquid leg then went on to the cooler and back to the reservoir. Effectively, this moved most of the oil through the "foam" side of the spintric and bypassed the cooler. I solved that problem by running all of the return from the oil pan through the pump, through the cooler, and then into the spintric, which split the flow into the two ports of the reservoir. I was concerned about sending the foamy oil through the cooler, so I spoke to Setrab. They said their coolers are designed to handle the foam with no problem. That is how the set up is running on my car now. Oil pan -> 2 suction lines -> pump discharge -> oil cooler -> spintric -> reservoir. I use gravity feed (over 1 foot of head pressure) to the stock oil pump. Pressure is good at all times. My whole system is vented to atmosphere. I am excited to follow your progress.

  27. #781
    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    Thanks Rob. Your car (both under your stewardship and Chad's) has provided us strong guidance in going with this setup. Chad's ongoing struggles with oil temp were fundamental to our decision to install a 3-stage oil pump rather than the more common suction-only 2-stage suction and internal pressure pumps. It also guided us to add the Spintric. Now, given what you and he have seen in the interim, I'm not sure we (or you) really need it, but we already have it, so we might as well use it, right? Thanks to your earlier post (and Chad's, before that), we have our output side plumbed identically to yours, despite that not being what Gary recommends in print.

    We also vent to atmosphere on one of the fittings from the oil tank. Fortunately, it's relatively easy to remove the oil pump drive belt (just drop one of the bolts that mounts the pump to its bracket) so that we can prime the system with a spare cog on a drill (like in the video). I anticipate we will only need to do that at a start of a racing day.

    Our goal is to get the car on track for testing this summer for a late summer/early fall race debut.

  28. #782
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    Mulry, great to see your progress!
    "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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    818R ICSCC SPM and HPDE Rental at Oregon Raceway Park
    2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM, NASA ST3
    Palatov DP4 - ICSCC & SCCA Sports Racer and HPDE Rental at Oregon Raceway Park

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