Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[RetroRacing]

gotcha, makes sense.

[Scargo]

My understanding is that the remote oil cooler and filter can be left as it is, the AOS and Killer-B Oil Control Valve can be left as it as these attach to the valve cover vents and the Dry Sump is a stand alone system, so basically you have 3 stand alone systems (1) Oil Cooler/remote Oil Filter (2) Valve cover venting system (AOS and Oil Control Valve) aand (3) Dry sump, pan, pump and tank

Tony, I think you are correct, with caveats. It depends on the Dry Sump setup and it depends on whether you want to utilize the potential vacuum that DS can provide. The DS "system", as I see it, can be all inclusive and would eliminate the need for the A/OS and certainly the KB oil control valve. By having enough pumps or turning two or more pumps fast enough you could create some real vacuum that could help performance, related to ring sealing and reducing oil mist.
Pulling an intake vacuum "up top" is insignificant and counterproductive to a race engine.

I'm in no way an expert on DS (yet). I am running the aforementioned system (in previous posts of this thread) and am breaking in a new engine which has a 12mm oil pump and external pressure relief valve. So far-so good but the STi has yet to make it to the track with this engine and I had to skip my dyno-tune tomorrow because of a small oil leak at one AVCS pulley.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, I think you are correct, with caveats. It depends on the Dry Sump setup and it depends on whether you want to utilize the potential vacuum that DS can provide. The DS "system", as I see it, can be all inclusive and would eliminate the need for the A/OS and certainly the KB oil control valve. By having enough pumps or turning two or more pumps fast enough you could create some real vacuum that could help performance, related to ring sealing and reducing oil mist.
Pulling an intake vacuum "up top" is insignificant and counterproductive to a race engine.

I'm in no way an expert on DS (yet). I am running the aforementioned system (in previous posts of this thread) and am breaking in a new engine which has a 12mm oil pump and external pressure relief valve. So far-so good but the STi has yet to make it to the track with this engine and I had to skip my dyno-tune tomorrow because of a small oil leak at one AVCS pulley.

Vacuum works against the oil pump so you should be trying to have positive pressure to force the oil into the pickup, so I'm not buying the additional vacuum requirement (as scavenge pump should be enough), I might just be real stupid here ...

[Sgt.Gator]

Doesn't the boost control solenoid need a vacuum reference pre turbo?

No, the boost source is a nipple on the turbo itself. That's true of all systems, stock or aftermarket, IWG or EWG. The third port on the BCS can either vent to atmosphere or to the intake. You can download the Grimmspeed instructions here: http://www.grimmspeed.com/content/in...ne_version.pdf

The issue, as explained to me by Elements, is that some guys don't just vent the valve covers to the DS tank. Pulling vacuum top and bottom of engine negates the benefit of both. Shouldn't the EGR be closed off and the valve covers be just vented directly to the DS tank to retain vacuum in the block?

I don't know what he means by pulling vacuum top and bottom negates the benefits of both. Race cars have been sealing up their engines to get full vacuum for many years.

If you vent the heads to the DS tank it's an open system. You won't pull much vacuum if at all. Air will come from the vented DS tank down the lines and into the engine to the pan to be scavenged. That was Chad's system. I originally did that because all the internet wisdom was that a two stage scavenge pump couldn't pull vacuum. Therefore <they say> the excess blowby in the block will have no where to go and will pressurize the block. So they vent the heads and the PCV block port to the DS tank. Then I decided to try it with the block all sealed up. I figured if the Cosworth pump could do it why not Aviaid? No vent to atmosphere. I was able to pull 11-12 inches of vacuum at moderate RPMs, which is perfect. Look at the Cosworth instructions I sent you, theirs is exactly the same except they include a vacuum regulator in the oem oil fill hole to provide relief in case the vacuum is too much (not too little).
Either way works, but in a sealed block you get the benefit of ring seal and other benefits due to the vacuum.

Here's the short version of the Cosworth Installation Instructions:
For 2006 and newer vehicles, the air injection pump must be removed following the Subaru factory service manual. The air pump inlet ports at the rear of the cylinder heads must be blocked off. We recommend Cosworth Air Pump Delete Kit (P/N 20004539).
Crankcase Ventilation
Remove the factory positive crankcase ventilation hoses and Y-pipe. The hoses originate from the cam covers and are the front most of the two adjacent hoses on each side. Remove the hoses from the nipples and replace them with the supplied rubber caps. One rubber cap will be needed for each of the two cam covers as well as one for the turbo inlet tube PCV inlet. The rear most hoses are balance hoses and are to remain attached. Remove the oil fill neck tube. Install the PP2355 o-ring on to the oil fill neck adapter fitting and lubricate with clean engine oil. Bolt on the oil fill neck adapter to the LH cam cover using the two 20008296 screws. Torque to 4.7 ft-lb using blue Loctite. Lubricate the o-ring with clean engine oil and install the vacuum regulator into the oil fill neck adapter.

In other words, the engine is totally sealed up, except if the vacuum regulator opens.
In my system I don't cap the front vents, I tee them together then back to the former block PCV opening. That creates a second balance system between the heads and the block. On that line I tee off a vacuum gauge on the dash. It does create a lot more clutter, if you cap the three ports per Cosworth instructions it's a cleaner installation.
Call me if you need help!

Here's a pic from the Cosworth Instructions. Notice no vent lines to the tank from the anything but the scavenge out.

Dry Sump Install Image 1.jpg

My understanding is that the remote oil cooler and filter can be left as it is, the AOS and Killer-B Oil Control Valve can be left as it as these attach to the valve cover vents and the Dry Sump is a stand alone system, so basically you have 3 stand alone systems (1) Oil Cooler/remote Oil Filter (2) Valve cover venting system (AOS and Oil Control Valve) aand (3) Dry sump, pan, pump and tank

Yes on all three. I just don't know why on #2!! Those are just more places that can cause failures. It's also unclear to me what happens when the DS system is pulling a vacuum on the pan how that will affect the AOS system. The AOS was never intended to work with a DS system, there could be unintended consequences. The AOS expects blow by to be coming out of the block, not air coming into it from the DS creating a vacuum.

[FFRSpec72]

Sgt, Gator, my point about the AOS and Dry Sump is relative to an open system, as you have to vent the blow by some place and seems that the AOS would do a good job and return the oil back to the block.

[Sgt.Gator]

Sgt, Gator, my point about the AOS and Dry Sump is relative to an open system, as you have to vent the blow by some place and seems that the AOS would do a good job and return the oil back to the block.

OK, Open System, let's discuss: You are missing the way it works if you say "you have to vent the blow by some place". The blow by will be sucked up with the oil in the pan and sent to the DS tank along with the oil. Air will take it's place coming in the heads from the line vented to the tank, and the tank has a separate VTA > Catch Can.
When you corner hard and fill the heads with oil, it will back up the breather lines but the only place it has to go is either thru the oem balance lines back into the block, or all the way to the DS tank.
If your AOS is hooked up to your intake then you are risking putting oil in the intake.
There is no need for an AOS, or any connection that can send oil to the intake, with a dry sump.

[Zach34]

The way Gator explains it makes sense to me. I dug up the Cosworth DS system instructions a while back and I like how they use a vacuum regulator on the oil fill port. I'm going to essentially re-create the Cosworth system with a few CNC'd parts of my own. The PCV tubing will be removed and all ports capped off. I will leave the balance hoses in place as they instruct. I will have no hoses going from the crankcase or valve covers back to the intake, so no AOS necessary. If not for all the oil lines for the DS system, it will make for a very clean-looking engine.

The vacuum regulator in the Cosworth kit is just a Peterson part and is available. The Cosworth kit included an adapter, so that's the only missing piece. Honestly, if you can weld aluminum, some scrap along with a female o-ring weld bung is probably all you need to make a nice adapter for the Peterson regulator.

I am curious if there's any situation where the 2-scavenge-pump system won't be able to pull vacuum, but I tend to believe that won't be the case. I also wonder just how much oil is collecting under the valve covers in a long sweeping turn. If it completely fills up the valve cover, then maybe we should be adding scavenge lines from there - but again I don't know that this is honestly a problem. Chad's motor is still going strong, after all.

[C.Plavan]

OK, Open System, let's discuss: You are missing the way it works if you say "you have to vent the blow by some place". The blow by will be sucked up with the oil in the pan and sent to the DS tank along with the oil. Air will take it's place coming in the heads from the line vented to the tank, and the tank has a separate VTA > Catch Can.
When you corner hard and fill the heads with oil, it will back up the breather lines but the only place it has to go is either thru the oem balance lines back into the block, or all the way to the DS tank.
If your AOS is hooked up to your intake then you are risking putting oil in the intake.
There is no need for an AOS, or any connection that can send oil to the intake, with a dry sump.

THIS.

I will add, I know Gator had success pulling vacuum with his DS, I tried what he did and was getting some very weird oil pressure (Lower) readings after one lap. I immediately slowed down, and came into the pits and reversed what I did. After going back to venting to the DS tanks, The oil pressures went back to normal. I never messed with it again, and that is still how it is running.

I did not run a vacuum gauge, but I did have to upgrade the vent hoses to sturdier hoses (Block-hose directly- no PCV valve, head vacuum/balance lines) The vacuum the motor created would collapse those lines when I tested it prior to taking it to the track in the garage. Again, this was all done before taking it to the track.

[Sgt.Gator]

Zach34 and anyone else who is thinking of a new DS system:
I'm going to cnc the fitting to use the Peterson regulator on a Subaru oil fill hole. I already have the reverse engineering done, but no prototype yet. I should have a small production run finished in two weeks.
I was going to cnc my own DS pans, but I just found out John at Aviaid has already made one and is sending me specs and pics. I never liked the ARE pan so this may solve that problem. His new pan has never been used so there may be issues we aren't aware of. Because it will be billet aluminum it will be more expensive than the ARE pan.
I'm also working on a different setup for the Aviaid pump. John sent me one but when I opened the box yesterday we both realized it wasn't put together right. Essentially it's backwards <LOL>... Today I'll reconfigure it and we'll see if it works the way I expect it to. I'll post up a pic when it's done.

When I'm sure we have all these pieces finalized, and I've been able to test them on my STI race car, I'll offer it up as an entire kit or as pieces.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Gator
I am interested in the Subaru Peterson vacuum regulator adaptor (SPVRA)

As far as sealing up the engine.
Putting my engineering hat on, if you have same vacuum at the scavenge pumps input as the rest of the engine. Nothing moves.
A vacuum regulator or some other air source (blow by) would be necessary to keep the oil moving.

AViaid pan
18198_1543435182543826_2036103928987297296_n.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator
I am interested in the Subaru Peterson vacuum regulator adaptor (SPVRA)

As far as sealing up the engine.
Putting my engineering hat on, if you have same vacuum at the scavenge pumps input as the rest of the engine. Nothing moves.
A vacuum regulator or some other air source (blow by) would be necessary to keep the oil moving.

AViaid pan
18198_1543435182543826_2036103928987297296_n.jpg

Thanks for the PIC!

The SPVRA (LOL) engineer was just here today. We're looking for a local shop to make the production run now. He's also helping with the pan, we think we can do better than both the ARE and Aviaid. More soon.

I promise the oil moves! If you think about it, the oil being pulled out of the pan is being replaced by new oil coming in from the tank> OEM Pump> into the engine. So it's net the same. Even if there were no blowby the oil keeps moving around and around. The blowby also fills in the gaps. Internet experts said a two stage scavenge would not be able to keep up with the blowby thereby creating a positive pressure. However most of the time they are looking at 5L+ V8 engines. Our little 4 cyl 2.5L engine does just fine with two stages, at least at normal power levels. Maybe at 500HP+ and 30 PSI of boost you need additional stages. I watch my vacuum/boost gauge, it NEVER was positive. Various levels of vacuum though.

I agree that if you try the closed system and it's not working just run the line from the front valve cover breathers to the DS tank. You give up the benefits of vacuum but if that's what it takes, fine!

If you want to read up on sealed - closed dry sump systems there's plenty of info out there.
Here's a good start: http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012...iling-systems/

[Zach34]

...the oil being pulled out of the pan is being replaced by new oil coming in from the tank> OEM Pump> into the engine.

Unless you're in a long sweeping turn and some/most of the oil is collecting in the valve cover and not falling onto the pan where the scavenge pick-ups are. I think that's why we have to run a vacuum regulator, like the Cosworth setup, and I think that's why Chad had strange things happen when he sealed his motor up. I envision the scavenge pump operation being sort of analagous to trying to suck the last bit of milkshake from the bottom of the cup with a straw - you're mostly pulling air with small drops of liquid unevenly mixed in. It sort of has to be that way, because otherwise oil is filling up the crankcase and would quickly drown the crankshaft.

I speculate different motors are going to get different vacuum with the same DS scavenge pumps. I have an 11mm oil pump, but my engine was built by Element with looser clearances than Chad's OEM-clearance motor. That means that, hopefully, I don't get the overheating issues Chad had with the 11mm pump, which we now understand due to his heroic troubleshooting efforts. However, that also means I'm going to flow more oil through the engine, possibly at a slightly different pressure, which means the scavenge pumps will have more oil to pick up, which will impact their vacuum-producing ability. Lots of variables. I think a vacuum gauge and log is going to be worthwhile.

That's cool I have the exact same plan as you for the DS system, but you're way ahead of me. My job is going to shut down my progress for a few weeks coming up, too, as it has for most of the year. I'm interested to see your pan! I have access to a CNC mill here, so I'm probably going to design/build my own mainly as a way to learn the mill. I had tentatively planned on patterning the pan design off of the Cosworth one.

[RetroRacing]

How much vacuum should the valve be set at?

[Sgt.Gator]

I will set mine at 12". There is a discussion of that in the above enginebuilder article and this posting may be helpful: http://nutterracingengines.com/racin...uum_facts.html
BTW, Nutter is located in Vancouver WA. I'll have to stop by there someday.

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's the new pump configuration I'm using in my kits. Side outlet, top inlets. It seems like a small thing but this makes it much easier to work with than the standard bottom outlet:

New Pump Config sm.jpg

I have two of them, anybody want to buy one?

[Scargo]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.dailey pump drive.jpg
I used a flat spot on the side of my fill tube for attaching a 1/2" MNPT fitting for an oil return. Just tapped the plastic (seems to be GF nylon) and added Permatex Ultra Black to the outside.
oil bypass return.jpg
I made my own balance tube from 5/8" aluminum tubing. It uses rubber elbows at each end.

[Scargo]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.
dailey pump drive.jpg
I used a flat spot on the side of my fill tube for attaching a 1/2" MNPT fitting for an oil return. Just tapped the plastic (seems to be GF nylon) and added Permatex Ultra Black to the outside.
oil bypass return.jpg
I made my own balance tube from 5/8" aluminum tubing. It uses rubber elbows at each end.
balance tube small.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.
dailey pump drive.jpg

I'm going with the Aviaid system.
I do like the idea of the Dailey pump/pan combination. I will admit that I never priced it because it looked expensive.

Does it work with stock exhaust?
In the picture above, it look like he exhaust will encroach on ground clearance.
Bob

[Scargo]

Bob, Don't know... My plan was to go forward with a BRZ style/KB style setup and use the area where the tank would normally be for the turbo. If you notice, that exhaust turns back abnormally soon. It should be going out beyond the head. I'd think a normal header would work with it.

[RetroRacing]

Balance tube with the dry sump? now I am confused, I thought seal and install vacuum control or run them seperatly to the ds tank.

[Sgt.Gator]

Balance tube with the dry sump? now I am confused, I thought seal and install vacuum control or run them seperatly to the ds tank.

The balance tube connects the two heads to the block, nothing to a vent to atmosphere. The system is still sealed up. It allows both sides of the engine to be in harmony with pressures/vacuums. there is an oem one there now, just leave it hooked up. It goes from the two rear vents on the heads to the block vent in Scargo's pic.
Here's the parts.subaru.com pic. The balance tube is the rear one with hoses 1AB333 and 1AB343 that go to the head vents. The front tubes are for coolant.:

G11_03601108.png

[Sgt.Gator]

Nobody seems to be jumping on the Dailey bandwagon. I like the idea of how it's driven and that it uses it's own oil pump with external regulating.
dailey pump drive.jpg
I used a flat spot on the side of my fill tube for attaching a 1/2" MNPT fitting for an oil return. Just tapped the plastic (seems to be GF nylon) and added Permatex Ultra Black to the outside.
oil bypass return.jpg
I made my own balance tube from 5/8" aluminum tubing. It uses rubber elbows at each end.
balance tube small.jpg

Scargo are you hooking up a Dailey system or just making a comment on it? I'd really like to see how it fits in an 818. It's a nice piece of engineering. And why did you make a custom balance tube instead of using the OEM one? It looks great and I like it, just wondering because now you need to run and secure the coolant lines that are part of the oem one.

And why are you keeping the oil fill tube?

Is that a MAP or IAT sensor plugged vertically into the bottom of your intake?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Below is the sketch of my new oiling system after losing my engine last month.

Can anyone recommend an inline vacuum regulator?
Thanks
Bob

[Scargo]

Scargo are you hooking up a Dailey system or just making a comment on it? I'd really like to see how it fits in an 818. It's a nice piece of engineering. And why did you make a custom balance tube instead of using the OEM one? It looks great and I like it, just wondering because now you need to run and secure the coolant lines that are part of the oem one.
And why are you keeping the oil fill tube?
Is that a MAP or IAT sensor plugged vertically into the bottom of your intake?

I was afraid I might confuse more than enlighten. I want and intend to use the Dailey system on my 818. What I am showing is my new STi setup because some are determined to make wet sump work in their 818s. Mine is a hybrid system of sorts, just for racing. My system is much like what's represented by Bob's diagram. Rather than the DS reservoir, I have an Accusump. Rather than the stock oil pump I have separated the oil pressure relief valve, like many DS systems do. My A/OS, AKA breather can or catch can drains back to the engine rather than being sucked back.
That said, I made the aluminum crossover tube to clean up the engine and eliminate the bulky runs of 5/8" oil hose. If anyone cares to visit my Shutterfly website I have lots of photos of this engine build. I have tried to clean up and eliminate everything unnecessary for a race motor. I have no throttle body heating. That barb is gone from the water crossover manifold. The black metal tubes that traverse the block are eliminated. I have the one, 1/2" blue silicone hose that goes directly from the water pump to the expansion tank. I suspect it is unnecessary.

The sensor you ask about is for my SPA boost/ oil pressure gauge. The oil pressure sensor is in the rear, left oil gallery plug location. I made a small notch in the water manifold so I could screw the oil pressure sensor directly into the gallery plug. I have a water temperature sensor in the bottom of the expansion tank.
I moved the Peterson oil pressure relief valve to a position on the intake manifold and am feeding it from the gallery plug where the AVCS oil pressure sensor normally goes. The AVCS sensor is now in the rear plug of the right gallery along with a second oil pressure sensor. I'll now have sensors for my SPA gauge on both galleries.
The oil fill tube is where I dump the relieved oil and because it is still a wet sump system that needs to be filled from there.

I had an issue where I was only seeing 45 PSI or so at my Accusump. It was tied into the other inlet/outlet side of the Peterson valve. I moved it because the relief valve's venturi effect was pulling down the pressure in the Accusump! So, there's significant amount of oil being bypassed...
Now, where to plumb in the Accusump? Before, it was in the middle of the oil cooler/filter block loop and the gauge on the Accusump was quite responsive and not far off from what the SPA gauge told me the oil pressure was. I'm thinking that I can attach it to the rear, right gallery plug where I first had the Peterson valve. But is that a good spot for both the sensors and the Accusump feed? Now, I'm getting very sensitive about "true pressure readings" and the effects of where you introduce and relieve oil pressure and where you measure pressure. Should have taken that fluid dynamics course.

[Scargo]

Below is the sketch of my new oiling system after losing my engine last month.

Can anyone recommend an inline vacuum regulator?
Thanks
Bob

Peterson.peterson vacuum regulator.PNG
You probably should have a thermostatic bypass valve in the cooling/filtering leg of your diagram. Some are built into the filter block. I use a stand alone Mocal OT2, 176°F thermostat bypass valve.
Mocalb.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Peterson.peterson vacuum regulator.PNG
You probably should have a thermostatic bypass valve in the cooling/filtering leg of your diagram. Some are built into the filter block. I use a stand alone Mocal OT2, 176°F thermostat bypass valve.
Mocalb.jpg

Thank Scargo for sharing all your knowledge and experience here.

My thought on the thermostatic bypass is:
When the engine is cold there is no coolant flowing through the Liquid/liquid oil cooler. So the cooler won't be doing much.
Do you agree?

I like the Peterson vacuum relief valve.
My thought was: Why filter the air again, just get the air from the top of the dry sump tank.
Do you agree?

Thanks
Bob

[Scargo]

Please don't anyone put me on a pedestal. Some of what I'm trying is not yet track proven. I am in touch with and consulting with an automotive engineer that works for Rousch-Yates and he has his Subie "circle of friends" that have some depth of knowledge regarding Subaru race motors. I'm just trying to think outside the box.
The point of the thermostatic bypass valve is to get the oil up to temp in the least amount of time. Many say you should not abuse an engine till the oil is up to 180F or so. Thus it eliminates the oil cooler from the path when not needed. I think this can be critical, especially if your oil is not optimal for cool temperatures or not low enough multi-viscosity oil. I hope to run 0-20 or 5-30 oil when it's 75F or less. My engine/my 12mm pump has no lack of oil flow!

I would guess that a vacuum relief valve could come in all flavors and sizes and doesn't need to be the Peterson one. Basic ones are as cheap as $20 and I can't see much CFM needed to modulate the vacuum. The Peterson one is physically not that big. Look at Grainger
Perhaps Peterson's works well in a dirty environment? You can draw your clean air from anywhere. Wrap a rag around it!

[walt555]

I haven't been able to think about the vacuum do or don't with a dry sump system yet. I'm still trying to sort out how to drive the pump in the tight confines of the 818 engine compartment and not blow the bank on it. What do you guys think about using the drive sprocket from the Dailey engineering Subaru kit? It attaches to the timing belt idler#2(a hole needs to be made in the timing belt cover) and uses a 38 tooth, 5mm pitch and 25mm width belt(cost for sprocket 160.00). I found some matching sprockets and belts for the pump from Gates Engineering. Sprockets are from power series 7709 56 - 72 teeth 4 tooth increments, Belts use 5mm product series 9400 lengths from 815mm to 1150mm. All this to drive a Aviaid pump.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I haven't been able to think about the vacuum do or don't with a dry sump system yet. I'm still trying to sort out how to drive the pump in the tight confines of the 818 engine compartment and not blow the bank on it. What do you guys think about using the drive sprocket from the Dailey engineering Subaru kit? It attaches to the timing belt idler#2(a hole needs to be made in the timing belt cover) and uses a 38 tooth, 5mm pitch and 25mm width belt(cost for sprocket 160.00). I found some matching sprockets and belts for the pump from Gates Engineering. Sprockets are from power series 7709 56 - 72 teeth 4 tooth increments, Belts use 5mm product series 9400 lengths from 815mm to 1150mm. All this to drive a Aviaid pump.

I'm going with a 2 stage Aviaid scavenge only pump connected in the position as the AC compressor also using the Micro v belt to the standard crank pulley.
Bob

[walt555]

That would be more cost effective. What size pulley are you thinking of?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That would be more cost effective. What size pulley are you thinking of?

Here is a picture

http://aviaid.com/media/photo-galler...other/001.html


micro v.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

Inline vacuum regulator. I have it, installed it, but after watching my vacuum gauge decided I didn't need it, so it's sitting on my shelf.
-12AN size, perfect for the usual DS setup.
https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/produc...ump-regulator/



Pulley sizes: That's been extensively discussed earlier in this thread regarding both pump and crank pulley sizes. On my new setup I'm using a the same 5.5" pump pulley and bushing I used on my LGT race car. To use that size requires using a Fenner bushing which I think is better bushing than what comes with the smaller pulley in the Element kit. However I'm going to test a Fluidamper crank pulley which is oem size. It may not work and I may have to switch to an underdrive crank pulley. If I was building a 2.0L high revving engine I would certainly get the underdrive pulley.

[DodgyTim]

As I'm nearing the end of my build (do they ever really finish?) I've got three ongoing concerns with my 818
- Gearbox strength
- Axle strength
- Oiling issues (dry sump)

I'm not sure I've got the stamina (or the $) to address all three prior to heading to the track, but I find the need for a dry sump is clearly the most daunting.
There is no logic in leaving the dry sump to later, as then it will cost me a motor and a dry sump

Is anyone considering putting together a kit or a group buy for a simple, low end, dry sump kit?

[Scargo]

I'm going with a 2 stage Aviaid scavenge only pump connected in the position as the AC compressor also using the Micro v belt to the standard crank pulley.
Bob

There is the risk of slippage or worse, belt breakage and ka-boom.

[DodgyTim]

There is the risk of slippage or worse, belt breakage and ka-boom.

From Bob's schematic it looks like the belt drives only the scavenge pump, with oil pressure supplied by the normal gear pump
If the belt breaks or slips the scavenge stops or reduces, the block will start to fill, and the crank will contact the oil in the dry sump pan
I always thought that was the cause of Chad's issues

[Sgt.Gator]

Is anyone considering putting together a kit or a group buy for a simple, low end, dry sump kit?

Yes, I am. But it won't be low end. There are two main versions, one with the serpentine belt which we know will work in an 818; and one with a cogged belt which requires a mandrel drive off the front of the crank pulley. I'm not 100% certain there is enough room for the mandrel drive. Next time I'm at a race with Tony or Retro I'll measure both their cars and see if it will work. The cogged belt version will obviously cost more.
What's your budget for a DS?

[Hindsight]

I thought Element Tuning already offered a kit?

[DodgyTim]

Yes, I am. But it won't be low end. There are two main versions, one with the serpentine belt which we know will work in an 818; and one with a cogged belt which requires a mandrel drive off the front of the crank pulley. I'm not 100% certain there is enough room for the mandrel drive. Next time I'm at a race with Tony or Retro I'll measure both their cars and see if it will work. The cogged belt version will obviously cost more.
What's your budget for a DS?

Thanks, I should have been clearer as I was really thinking about the system, rather than the cost.
I think what I'd like to try is a 2 stage scavenge, no pressure stage (use the OEM pump) but with a cogged belt drive system.

My hassle is shipping costs, on individual items it gets really bad, and purchasing locally is prohibitive as all the parts come from the US anyway.

If all the components (less hoses but with the end fittings) were boxed in one box ready for shipping for $2750 to $3000 that would be ideal, but maybe I'm dreaming???

[Sgt.Gator]

On the Serp belt comments:
1) A cogged belt can break too.
2) The Serp belt is how Cosworth does it.
3) A Serp belt is how Element does it and I've never seen any posts on NASIOC about them breaking and going KA-Boom.

That said, the cogged belt is probably better but does require mount shimming.

After I pooched my Aviaid serp belt pump I was ready to bag the whole idea of a serp belt system. I've re-evaluated that stance because the damage was my user error and after seeing how Cosworth also uses the Serp belt I feel a lot better about it. It also helped that it cost very little to get the pump re-built at the Aviad shop.

I thought Element Tuning already offered a kit?

Element does. Mine will be better! The reason being I've built the Element kit. I've got the Cosworth kit. I've looked at all the parts Aviaid and ARE make. I'm combining what IMHO are the best of all these systems into a kit. The biggest delay for my kit is making my own design DS pan. I don't like the readily available ARE and Aviaid ones.

But if you need one now either order Element's or I can put one together with my spare pump. Actually I have 2 spare pumps since I have a the entire Cosworth package here. If someone wants to buy the Cosworth I could sell it, I've learned all I can from it.

Dodgy Tim, yes, you are pretty much dreaming at under $3K including shipping for the whole shebang. I have no idea how much it costs to ship to Australia! I'll see what the number looks like with some options and send you a PM if you are really close to ordering one. A lot of it depends on what you already have. I'm guessing you have a catch can, but it will need it to work with a -12AN fitting, which means you may need a new one if you can't find the right adaptor to put on the tank or the can to connect them. Do you have a 2005-7 Subaru STI A/C mount?
If you can source the Tank, Hoses, Fillings, Catch Can, and the Subaru OEM parts (If you want a Serp belt system) I can come up with a quote for a Pump, Mount Plate, Pump Pulley, Pump Pulley Bushing, and DS Pan. Actually I can throw the Subaru oem parts in the box, they weigh nothing.

[Scargo]

I keep forgetting that the stock oil pump stays in place and is unrelated to the other DS evacuation pumps in the Cosworth style DS system. Doesn't the oil pump only get oil directly from the DS tank? If that tank became empty wouldn't the oil pump starve, while the engine fills?
I have never seen a serpentine belt break... on anything, but I've heard a lot of them squealing.