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Thread: Swapping the flywheel on my coyote crate motor. Is a crank relearn inevitable?

  1. #1
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    Swapping the flywheel on my coyote crate motor. Is a crank relearn inevitable?

    So me and my dad have the summit racing coyote engine and transmission combo (We are working on a mk4, still waiting for the kit to come in). When we saw that the motor came with a flywheel we assumed that the one that came in the summit kit was unnecessary. When we went to put the clutch and pressure plate on last night, we quickly saw that if we wanted to use the clutch and pressure plate that came in the summit kit that we would have to swap flywheels to the one that summit provided. I have a new mustang and I was very familiar with the fact that if you wanted to swap a flywheel or clutch on a 2011-2014 mustang, that you have to do what is called a crank relearn (or in super technical ford lingo, misfire monitor neutral profile correction). So my question for you guys is, has anyone else swapped flywheels and had issues? Is it possible to swap flywheels without doing a crank relearn on a coyote crate motor? It kind of seems inevitable since you have to torque down the flywheel bolts which would move the crank position ring( I don't know what to call it, but a picture of it is below) quite a bit. Does the coyote crate motor even require this? I was talking with a guy on another forum and he said that any new crate motor needs this relearn done regardless of whether you disturb the position of the crank position sensor or not. Here's the kicker, does the control pack PCM even support this relearn function? The only way to do the relearn is by using a Ford IDS tool (basically a dealer diagnostic computer, finding a competent dealer that is willing to do this, is difficult, even though it's a 5 minute procedure ) or by using an SCT X4 Tuner(under special functions). The result of not doing this is a misfire. As you guys can probably tell I'm pretty lost on this topic so any insight would be so very appreciated ! Me and my dad are itching to proceed with our build, but this stopped us in our tracks, just want to be sure we are taking the right steps. Calling FRPP techline on Monday to see what they say about it as well.

    Here's a picture for those that may not understand what I am talking about

    Crank Trigger thingy (1024x498).jpg
    Last edited by AKDMB; 12-31-2014 at 11:21 AM.

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    2bking's Avatar
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    The PCM is purchased separate from the engine so where is the relearn stored?
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Forwarding to FFR Tech support...


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bking View Post
    The PCM is purchased separate from the engine so where is the relearn stored?
    The relearn is done through the PCM's OBD2 port. You would think that every coyote crate motor would need one, since it isnt in factory mustang, how would the PCM know what "home" in the first place? I haven't seen anything about this in all the coyote swaps I have read. Maybe this doesn't apply to the crate motor. Who knows, just wanna be sure before I possibly screw something up that can't be fixed.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Hodgkins View Post
    Forwarding to FFR Tech support...

    Thank You!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zullo View Post
    Hi guys [email protected] we have done a ton of Coyote installs and had never had a problem, this also goes for the auto trans install , When you pulled the flywheel off did the ring fall off or did you take it off ?
    Sorry, we haven't even taken the flywheel off yet. We just want to be sure that when we change the flywheel if the ring gets moved slightly that it won't mess anything up. I've tried to post this reply like 5 times and it never shows up, sorry I'm new to this forum.
    Last edited by AKDMB; 12-31-2014 at 02:59 PM.

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    Tech Support Manager, FFR Tony Zullo's Avatar
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    Hi guys [email protected] we have done a ton of Coyote installs and had never had a problem, this also goes for the auto trans install , When you pulled the flywheel off did the ring fall off or did you take it off ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zullo View Post
    Hi guys [email protected] we have done a ton of Coyote installs and had never had a problem, this also goes for the auto trans install , When you pulled the flywheel off did the ring fall off or did you take it off ?
    Sorry, we haven't even taken the flywheel off yet. We just want to be sure that when we change the flywheel if the ring gets moved slightly that it won't mess anything up. I've tried to post this reply like 5 times and it never shows up, sorry I'm new to this forum.

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDMB View Post
    Sorry, we haven't even taken the flywheel off yet. We just want to be sure that when we change the flywheel if the ring gets moved slightly that it won't mess anything up. I've tried to post this reply like 5 times and it never shows up, sorry I'm new to this forum.
    They all went to moderation because you included a quote, which the software lumps in with links. The behavior will go away after your 10th post.


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  9. #8
    Tech Support Manager, FFR Tony Zullo's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure that ring is pressed on ,If the engine has a flywheel on it use that one that's what i always do.

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    Well, my dad went ahead and swapped flywheels, he was sure to mark where the crank position wheel was and it's positioned now where it was before he took the flywheel off. Haven't found anything else about the relearn with the control pack PCM, but I did find an instance of someone swapping out a flywheel on a 3.7 V6 mustang (same crank position sensor and all that) being sure not to move the sensor (your going to spin the flywheel regardless when torquing down the flywheel and pressure plate no matter how hard you try, I think the key is positioning it back in the original spot you marked) and they didn't have any check engine lights or misfires, so it is possible. I guess we honestly won't know until the go kart stage of the build when we do the first fire up (a long time away). I will scan for codes at that point, and hopefully there won't be any audible misfires. I am calling Ford Racing techline on Monday to see what they say about the relearn and I will post their reply on here for future reference. I honestly wished we didn't have to swap flywheels, but we wanted to utilize everything in the summit coyote transmission combo. Right now the motor and trans is all ready to go, the summit engine/trans kit came with everything except for the 3 starter bolts (M8 x 1.25 x 40, standard modular starter bolts) and we would have liked to have seen 4 stainless steel washers for the trans to bellhousing bolts.

  11. #10
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    No need for alarm. If you put the trigger wheel back on between the flywheel and the crank you will be fine. There is no adjustment and the pattern of the bolts allow for only one way to install it.

    If someone were to have swapped the flywheel prior to you ever seeing it, and put the engine, clutch pack trans etc together and forgot to put the trigger wheel on....................it won't run... ask me how I know?????
    FFinisher/AKA RE63

  12. #11
    Senior Member E-Ticket Ride's Avatar
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    That probably sucked...
    CL
    Confidence: The feeling you have before you truly understand the situation. FFR 7652 Mk IV Base Kit w/IRS: ordered 10/19/2011; Arrived 11/19/2011. Coyote, Trans & headers Installed 9/11/17. First Start 12/19/17, First Go-cart 3/2/18. Aligned and go-karting. Working the interior now. Happy customer of FFR, North RaceCars, Forte's, and Breeze.
    Chris Lewis

  13. #12
    Senior Member Jester's Avatar
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    No issues to report here - before installing the trans (tko600) I installed the new flywheel without issue - starts and runs fine (part number as per FFR Coyote parts list). Remember to use Loctite on the flywheel bolt threads.
    15th Anniversary Edition
    Mk4 - 18 month build (4 hrs every Sat), received Aug 2011, titled & registered May 2013, final in paint Nov 2013 - Ferrari blue
    FRPP Crate Coyote 5.0, tko600, Moser 3 link, manual steering & 13" brakes, upgraded coil overs
    koolmat then dynamat then carpet in cockpit - very solid, no engine heat transfer to cockpit and no road noise

  14. #13
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    Ford performance tech supports says that " a crank relearn is a good and worthy thing to do" (honest). I can not get my HP Tuner scanner to perform a crank relearn. I get an error message," unable to initialize". HP Tuner says try it again. I did, it didn't. Ford says contact SCT. Well, that has never worked for me, I could not even get them to answer my email when I said that I would buy their tuning software/hardware if they supported the Coyote crate. No answer therefore I went with HP Tuner because their web site listed the control pack 5.0l4v2015 as a supported item. (maybe) I think that the crank relearn probably works for a Mustang because Brake on and transmission neutral is available to the mustang ECU but these pin have no connections to the crate ECU

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    logged out because of slow typing

    I have a 2015 mustang wiring diagram if anyone would like to know where inputs to the ECU originates. You may email me. [email protected]

  16. #15
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    I have a 5.0 Coyote and experienced the same situation with the installed flywheel. First a word of caution the 4.6 bolts I received are too short. With the new flywheel, the new bolts only had .2" of thread engagement.
    These bolts have a cross slots cut in the head and correct ones have a solid head. The correct bolts have significantly more thread engagement. Maybe my experience was not common, but it really scared me when I saw the short bolts.
    On the timing wheel, I lined up the holes and bolted everything back up. I have not run the engine yet. I have a Gen I engine, ECU and wiring harness.
    On a second note, I have a 2013 Shelby GT 500 tuned by Jon Lund with an SCT X4. After some add on parts I had to do a crank relearn, piece of cake with SCT. I recommend getting a tune from Lund and one of the SCT products. I am sure you will be amazed at what a tune will do to the engines behavior at all levels of operation. The SCT tuners also opens a vast window of being able to monitor numerous parameters of the engine.
    Last edited by Railroad; 03-29-2018 at 02:38 PM.
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

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