OK Harpers got a Majority - Can we capitalize on it somehow in our chosen hobby?

[CdnCobraGuy]

This is just me thinking out loud, but now that the conservatives have a majority I wonder if there is a way to use their 4 year window to bring about any changes in how the Feds deal with Kit cars in Canada?

I realize that the kit car crowd will be a VERY low priority in the minds of federal politicians - can you say invisible - but perhaps if we pool our collective thoughts and insites we can raise the profile in their minds to the point that we can convince them to bring about meaningful, helpful, changes using their new majority.

I will start the discussion by posing the concept that if the industry is pitched as a job generator it might get their attention. The British experience has produced exactly that and the british SVA rules and regs would make an excellent starting point for aCanadian discussion on kit cars in Canada.

Lets hear some thoughts on the subject pro's and cons and see where it takes us.

[efnfast]

Why? You can import them, you can register them, it isn't (at least in Alberta) bad like some of the nazi US states for getting them on the road. Bringing attention just brings headaches.

There's processes in place already for kit cars here and they work, why rock the boat. The worse is what, we pay for a few hundred dollars in parts that FFR isn't allowed to send across the border. I say just accept it and get over it - it's only a few hundred bucks - you'll burn through far more than that when building and breaking stuff.

Having bought from 2 manufacturers in the last 4years I honestly have no complaints with either the federal or provincial systems in place currently.

[CdnCobraGuy]

Efnfast

Don't disagree with your statement, but it occurs to me that if there were a PROPER system in place this country could have a vibrant industry in the kit car business with manufacturers freely advertising their compliant kit cars for sale across the country and indeed around the world. As it is today we are TOTALLY at the whim of a few individuals in Ottawa who "interpret" the rules as they see fit and arbitrarily change the requirements as the mood suits them and we can do nothing about it.

I can tell you from my years of working with FFR that they have shipped kits to countries around the world and no place is as onerous to deal with as Canada!

What I am wondering is if it might not be possible to create the political will to see something done as if it comes from the politicians the beaurocrats have no option but to comply.

At this point there is nothing being done other than to engage in an open discussion about the relative merits of such a project.

One last thought, The concept of not rocking the boat to me is ridiculous when the boat is full of holes. In our current context the "Holes" are the DOT's ability to Interpret the regs as they see fit not to mention the obvious differences between the kit plane industry, which has very specific legislation and flourishes in Canada and the kit car industry which has vague regulations that the DOT interpret as they see fit.

[RonSchofield]

Al,

So what exact changes would you suggest?

I suggest that if a kit is to be imported, that it is inspected my a federal automotive engineer to be deemed safe for the road. I also suggest that any kit with all it;s parts are allowed into Canada and that when the kit is registered it needs to be inspected my a provincial automotive engineer to be deemed safe for the road.

Here in Nova Scotia, it needed to be inspected my an automotive engineer before it can be registered. I am glad for this inspection to make sure there is nothing wrong that could make me loose my life or someone elses.

This nation wide inspection program might also help with getting insurance.

[Dennisb]

My suggestion is not to rock the boat and leave things alone. I tried to do the same thing with Controlled Substances under the Health Act and got way more regs and beuacracy and waste of time than less. I was only trying to make things safer for BC health patients and streamline things for the Coroner's Service. If you let them know that they can fill in more positions and paperwork they'll do it. This could very easily come back to bite you in the ***.

[CdnCobraGuy]

OK - Concensus seems to be to let sleeping dogs lie so I think we will leave it at that. As I said at the outset, just a thought stated out loud. - Now Shelved as far as I'm concerned.

[efnfast]

Al,

Here in Nova Scotia, it needed to be inspected my an automotive engineer before it can be registered. I am glad for this inspection to make sure there is nothing wrong that could make me loose my life or someone elses.

This nation wide inspection program might also help with getting insurance.

But if that's what you're relying on to determine if you built it safely or not, I think you'd be out to lunch - there's only so much 1 person who wasn't involved in the build can see/do. Yes, they can check the obvious like leaking brakes or a steering shaft that's going to fail, but beyond that? If you forgot to torque the front spindle nuts to 240ft-lbs and only did them handtight, are they going to know/check that to make certain your wheel won't come flying off at 100kph? Nope. The onus is and should be on you.

As for insurance, you just have to understand the system and how to work with it to your advantage - myself, I've had 0 problems with insurance. Actually, my kits are fully insured te day I have them (go figure that they require me to carry 3rd party liability insurance on them when they arn't even drivable, lol)

Efnfast

Don't disagree with your statement, but it occurs to me that if there were a PROPER system in place this country could have a vibrant industry in the kit car business with manufacturers freely advertising their compliant kit cars for sale across the country and indeed around the world. As it is today we are TOTALLY at the whim of a few individuals in Ottawa who "interpret" the rules as they see fit and arbitrarily change the requirements as the mood suits them and we can do nothing about it.

I can tell you from my years of working with FFR that they have shipped kits to countries around the world and no place is as onerous to deal with as Canada!

What I am wondering is if it might not be possible to create the political will to see something done as if it comes from the politicians the beaurocrats have no option but to comply.

At this point there is nothing being done other than to engage in an open discussion about the relative merits of such a project.

One last thought, The concept of not rocking the boat to me is ridiculous when the boat is full of holes. In our current context the "Holes" are the DOT's ability to Interpret the regs as they see fit not to mention the obvious differences between the kit plane industry, which has very specific legislation and flourishes in Canada and the kit car industry which has vague regulations that the DOT interpret as they see fit.

At the end of the day though have you ever heard of somebody saying they wanted to buy X kit but weren't able to because it couldn't be imported or they couldn't get it registered? I havn't .... the system works. Yea, it's slow and tedicious and full of paperwork, but you can get anything in and it is 100001x simpler than places like Australia.

[AC Bill]

I will start the discussion by posing the concept that if the industry is pitched as a job generator it might get their attention.

Al, I'm not sure I understand you on this point? Do you mean if a company started up in Canada, building completed kit cars, (that they imported), for sale? I could see this generating jobs.
I can't see how an individual, building his own imported kit, could be construed as a job generator though..

Other than the transport Canada BS rule about making FFR delete certain parts on kits going to CND builders, it seems the process now is about as good as one might expect, considering government is involved..

[Questor]

I'm going to chime in here, but expect the same response as on the other forum.

I'm not a big believer in going with the flow because we're afraid of what the bureaucrats will do. That is most certainly what a few will strongly suggest.

Way back when the legislation was enacted, it was about safety because kit cars were not engineered like they are today. The current state of things really has nothing to do with safety. Think about the situation. We remove a few parts that are engineered to work with the whole, but have no legislation to ensure the replacement parts are better or even suited to the task.

If this was about safety there would be legislation that addresses the finished product. It would involve an inspection of the finished product like what is required here in Nova Scotia and, I'm sure, some other provinces. Instead of this we have a system which pretends to protect us and administered in a manner which really makes you shake your head. I refer to the case where a judge ruled against TC, but TC says it doesn't change anything regarding our situation. In what world does a politician allow a civil servant to make this kind of decision? The answer is, in a world where people are so afraid to rock the boat that they will allow those who are supposed to serve to rule instead.

Quote Enfast:
But if that's what you're relying on to determine if you built it safely or not, I think you'd be out to lunch - there's only so much 1 person who wasn't involved in the build can see/do. Yes, they can check the obvious like leaking brakes or a steering shaft that's going to fail, but beyond that? If you forgot to torque the front spindle nuts to 240ft-lbs and only did them handtight, are they going to know/check that to make certain your wheel won't come flying off at 100kph? Nope. The onus is and should be on you.
end quote

Just wondering where this fits in with the added safety TC's system is supposed to supply or where Ron's thought is wrong. Yes. We all need to be thorough, but added to that we have an inspection by a qualified expert. This further makes the point that proper engineering of proper parts is important to safety. The way TC enforces the legislation could have someone bolt a shock for a Civic under his Roadster and you'd be sure he used the proper torque on the nuts.

It really doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but I'd make a terrible sheep. The system we follow now does not reflect what the legislation says, nor does it provide for more safety: I'd say less.

Our forefathers would be proud to see us find ways to work around a flawed system rather than try to make it right.....well, maybe not.

[Debovsky]

Sorry for resurrecting an old topic but I feel like putting my 2¢ here.

I'd like to bring some clarification with respect to aircraft vs car kit building. I'm currently involved in a kit plane build and the rules around AIRCRAFT vs CAR kit building are way different. First of all, General Aviation is strictly Federal while Automobile Industry responsibilities are shared between the Feds and each provinces.

In addition, the differences between the two also come from the fact that Canadian's GA world is very well represented. I haven't found any comparable representation (association) in CDN kit car world yet. I don't recall ever seeing CAA (Canadian Automobile Association) advocating for kit car builders (did you?). In addition, if TC regulation seems better define pertaining aircraft kits or homebuilds (experimental in the USA), it is because one day, a guy raised his hand to oppose the former TC regulation that was preventing Canadians to import kitplanes AT ALL. That was not long ago. Nowadays, we have the freedom to import every single piece of hardware or complete kits, as we want, to build them up, regardless of its origin, (US, Europe or else) as long as it is aircraft grade engineering/material.

In a nutshell, a kitplane project goes like that; you write a letter of intent to the MD-RA (Minister's Delegate - Recreational Aviation) Inspection Services, you build-up part of the plane up to the "pre-skin" or partly skinned stage then go through the first inspection, complete the build followed by a second (hopefully the last on) inspection then it falls into the TC court yard. Doesn't look like this at all for kit cars.

I concur with Questor pointing out the risks of dislocating a group pf parts that were engineered to be part of an integrated system and allowing John Doe searching and "trying" out to fit a part that "MAY" fit his application. All this without any significant guide lines. In my humble opinion, I believe that we should join our voice to at least express our concerns toward the gaps or holes in the system. I also think that the "don't-disturb-the-sleeping-giant" attitude isn't going to be of any help here. Therefore, I believe that for the sake of safety, the current system to which we have to comply with deserves improvement. Rules and regulations are not there to pest your life but to protect it. Collectively.

One last word. You may say "Who's this guy out of the blue" lecturing us ?? Please know this, I stayed away from kit cars for years because the last time I checked around (20+ years ago), kit cars were not a very popular subject around here. Import, registration and insurance of kit cars was nearly impossible in Canada unless paying bribes. Thanks god it has changed. And yes I'm reconsidering building my dream car (Cobra MKIV) because someone, somewhere in Canada, a guy or a group of guy, raised his(their) hand(s) and managed to convince few politicians to open their eyes and change their mind toward what I consider as a wonderful and very educational hobby.

Could we do a little better?

[skullandbones]

Some countries require multiple step inspections similar to housing construction. So be careful what you ask for.

My question is: what value is there in removing components from a "kit" that are designed for it and are most likely the best choice for the builder (scratch my head every time I hear it)? Maybe these don't meet some ISO requirements that have been in place for decades or tariff prohibitions. Usually the regulation has not kept up with the product safety, quality,.....etc. It seems that would be the most helpful pathway to streamline the system.

Thanks, WEK.

[PaulW]

On the other hand the inability of individuals to import complete cars does help keep the value of our finished cars quite a bit higher here than in the US.