818R front suspension adjustment?

[bstuke]

I was wrong again it is 5/8.

No worries, I already have spacers, so I will work on it next week and get it back to the alignment shop.

[C.Plavan]

Attachment 42884Attachment 42885Attachment 42886

Yeah- Just throw those spacers that came with the kit away, they are in no way long enough. Just keep the really thin ones if you need to fine tune. You need to make them out of metal pipe.


Edit: I found the guide I made:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Install-Guide

[D Clary]

I made mine out of aluminum round stock, drilled it out on the lathe.

[bstuke]

Always something! I did a lot better this Sunday and am gaining ground on my National class EM counterparts. I went to change spring rates and an old MK2 UCA challenge bit me again! It seems that the way FFR wants to plate positioned is no limiting my movement. I couldn't figure out why my shock would not uncompress, and quickly realize the upper ball joint is hitting the plate and stopping movement. Back to the drawing board...
20150622_155309.jpg20150622_155318.jpg

[xxguitarist]

Are these photos at full droop?
What's the angle of the ball joint at ride height?

We are pretty low, but have our upper A arms in the "S" position. No binding at either end.

[bstuke]

That is full droop. Not sure what you mean by "S Position". And I am sober!

I am running right at 4" but was going to go up a little because of rub.

[bstuke]

The "Rub"...

20150622_174033.jpg

[xxguitarist]

The 818 S position is where you have the stack of washers.

We are also at 4", the upper A arm is roughly level at static ride height

[bstuke]

The 818 S position is where you have the stack of washers.

We are also at 4", the upper A arm is roughly level at static ride height

Ah! After a few beers, I get it. Is that a problem?

I already have the spindle apart and am waiting for the "beast" Bosch impact wrench to charge so I can try and get the ball joint off. I am still considering putting the upper in the S position though...

[C.Plavan]

Ask FFR to send you the correct UCA's. The ball joint "ring" should be flat, not at an angle like yours. Especially for an 818R.

image.jpg

This is an old picture of mine. I'm out of town so that's the best I could do.

My rubbing is way worse. I let my tires "self clearance" after a few laps.

You have everything correct, do not change to the S position, just get the correct UCA's so the ball joint does not hit it.

The front tires will always be an issue on the 818. They will either rub on the inside, or outside, or both. They really should of designed it for real world tire sizes.....

[bstuke]

I just don't understand why Dave bothers sending them out. It was the exact same problem with the Cobra. Anyway, I am going to try and get them off and flip them. Otherwise it is off to Summit for new ones.

[Scargo]

Is this the way it always is with a new kit car? RE, my 818R, I asked FFR to just tack-weld my front end because I didn't want to use Subaru components there. They refused. I didn't want the Koni shocks. In addition, they send me all kinds of crap that I will never use or it is just not good enough for my race car. Some of it requires modding.
Is this just the beta stage where we are the Guinea pigs? Instead of getting a discount or consideration, because we are pigs, we end up spending more money and it taking us more time to get it right.
I really think FFR needs a new business model for their kits with a "cafeteria plan" for the people that want to pick and choose. After all, in most instances, they are just pulling parts off the shelf.
Their "take it or leave it" approach leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I don't think it is necessary for them to be so rigid and still turn a decent profit.

[D Clary]

This is kind of the model that they have been using for a while. While there are changes you can make, to stop production and do a one off takes time. When you are trying to get cars out as quickly as possible you just can't stop and make one different. That is how kit cars are. Perhaps when the backlog isn't a year they will have time or inclination to do things differently. There are many compromises in this car to make it a one donor car. Most everyone has strayed a bit, some more that others. I have a very large stack of new unused parts, But guess what? I have a huge stack of new unused parts from every project I have ever done. Try mouth wash

[Scargo]

I will try the mouthwash idea. Perhaps I will just swish my scotch around a bit more!
I understand what you are saying. I had a business (but mine was all custom work!). I tried negotiating with FFR about the welding. It would have been less work for them, but in the end they did not want the liability or having anyone confused or having to think an extra amount about it. I don't think what I asked for would have stopped production.

[bstuke]

I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was simply being Captain Obvious. Or maybe Captain Oblivious? Could they not have simply supplied the R with the zero degree unit? According to Chad they do have them...

That is all.

[bstuke]

And one down and one to go, man it is hot!

This is the driver side at full droop. I flipped the plate, which is what I did on the Cobra, and now I am back to around 8" of unimpeded travel. Although I will never use that much, I do have all the travel I need.
20150623_165225.jpg


This is with tension, basically what ride height should look close to with the wheels back on and the car on the ground. So back where I started, needing to adjust ride height!
20150623_170359.jpg

A side view to show the ball joint in the right plane and direction.
20150623_170449.jpg

Not sure how I missed this before. I guess it looked OK with 1/2 degree of camber! I also replaced all the aluminum adjusters with steel.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

And one down and one to go, man it is hot!

This is the driver side at full droop. I flipped the plate, which is what I did on the Cobra, and now I am back to around 8" of unimpeded travel. Although I will never use that much, I do have all the travel I need.

Hi Bob
The shock only has 4" of travel without the bump stop rubber.
11" to 15" inches if I remember correctly.
Bob

[bstuke]

Hi Bob
The shock only has 4" of travel without the bump stop rubber.
11" to 15" inches if I remember correctly.
Bob

You are correct. You will be hard pressed to reach maximum compression travel with the shock and spring in place. My measurement was without the shock. I was basically deceived with the shock in place, I could not figure out why oh why the suspension would not uncompress enough to remove the shock. It stayed loaded, which tipped me off to the same problem I had with the Cobra..

[bstuke]

I also suspect this problem is causing a push as the inboard front wheel could not stay planted.

[Scargo]

Anze tested my red Konis and as I recall they only had 3-3/4" of travel.

[bstuke]

Anze tested my red Konis and as I recall they only had 3-3/4" of travel.

Something like that. bottom line is I need travel above AND below the center of the at rest axis(Did I say that correctly?). Passenger side is done, reset the ride height to 4.25" and off to the races this weekend! Oh and 500lb springs front and 450lb back. I may shoot some suspension video as well.

[bstuke]

Brokety broke. Left rear wheel bearing.

[bstuke]

Here is some suspension video from this weekends SEDIV AutoX event. I only got a run or two in as the left rear bearing was letting go. The push was significantly reduced and the car handled much better. I was actually keeping up with faster cars and better drivers until the bearing problem. I am thinking of just pulling the tranny to get ready to put in an LSD considering I already have one side off.

[Buzz Skyline]

Awesome angle! I love watching suspension videos.

Did you decide to leave off the aluminum panels that go in front of the front wheels?

[Tamra]

What did you end up with for alignment settings? Glad it went well. Sorry to hear about the bearing.

[bstuke]

Awesome angle! I love watching suspension videos.

Did you decide to leave off the aluminum panels that go in front of the front wheels?

What Panels?

[bstuke]

What did you end up with for alignment settings? Glad it went well. Sorry to hear about the bearing.

Not done yet but current -2.8, 1/8 toe out(don't get me started!) and 4 on caster. I have most of the new pieces in place and we should get to 3 or so camber, more caster, more tire pressure and no push with an Quaife LSD.

PS. Congrats on the great showing in Toledo! Awesome job!

[Buzz Skyline]

What Panels?

I was thinking of ditching mine too.

[Tamra]

Not done yet but current -2.8, 1/8 toe out(don't get me started!) and 4 on caster. I have most of the new pieces in place and we should get to 3 or so camber, more caster, more tire pressure and no push with an Quaife LSD.

PS. Congrats on the great showing in Toledo! Awesome job!

-2.8 all around? I won't ask on the toe FYI, we have -2 camber on the front and tire temps show that it's pretty good. -3 on the rear.

Thank you Toledo was terrible on Saturday (3" of rain fell and we had wind gusts knocking down trees. They actually cancelled the 2nd heat. I literally hydroplaned the autocross course all day, which was interesting). Sunday was perfect weather, blue skies, dry concrete (leftover puddles in the morning for my runs but not terrible). I'm pretty excited about how I did. It was a lot of fun.

[bstuke]

-2.8 all around? I won't ask on the toe FYI, we have -2 camber on the front and tire temps show that it's pretty good. -3 on the rear.

Thank you Toledo was terrible on Saturday (3" of rain fell and we had wind gusts knocking down trees. They actually cancelled the 2nd heat. I literally hydroplaned the autocross course all day, which was interesting). Sunday was perfect weather, blue skies, dry concrete (leftover puddles in the morning for my runs but not terrible). I'm pretty excited about how I did. It was a lot of fun.

I heard about the deluge, nice. Yep 3 on the back and a little toe in. The back was easy and is now square with the front. We basically ran out of room to adjust the front so left it at 2.8. Wear is better but my temp probe quit so not sure how much better and where we need to go from there. Hopefully the wheel bearing will be fixed and I can attend a two day event in two weeks.

[johngeorge]

bstuke, so all you did was flip the upper control arms left to right and that resolved your issue? You may have gotten the beta UCAs with your beta kit, dont think the same arms are shipped in production kit.

[bstuke]

bstuke, so all you did was flip the upper control arms left to right and that resolved your issue? You may have gotten the beta UCAs with your beta kit, dont think the same arms are shipped in production kit.

Hey John, there are actually only two, a 10 and 0 degree plate. Not sure why I got the 10. I did put it in per the manual(maybe my problem is RTFM?!) and it was fine until I tried to crank in -3 camber. Switching and flipping them certainly aligned the ball joint better, but I suspect the 0 degree plate would work as well. I ended up using the 0 degree plate on the MK2 as it lined up best at -3 camber and a little different geometry that the MK2 has. All is good now.

[bstuke]

Too much camber in the front?
818RALSCCASEDIV1.jpg

Bearing replaced, and huge thanks to team mechanic Joe Camire for taking care of it. Two day event this weekend, I hope it holds together!

[philly15]

-2.8 all around? I won't ask on the toe FYI, we have -2 camber on the front and tire temps show that it's pretty good. -3 on the rear.

I'm curious, why so much more negative camber in the rear?

[Tamra]

I'm curious, why so much more negative camber in the rear?

When we probed the tires, -3 rear and -2 front was what gave us the ideal temperatures across the tires (combined with finding the right pressures), and ideal tire wear. We do have the 500 lb springs on the front, 300 lb rear. It also made the car handle more neutrally.

Camber should be set to make the tire temperatures happy given the weight balance and spring force. Then set tire pressure to adjust center (higher pressure) or shoulder (lower pressure) temperature bias.

[philly15]

Did you test the tire temperature just on an auto x course? Or was there more extensive testing involved? I understand the neutral setup though. Athough my springs are swapped 350 F 500 R

[Tamra]

When we probed the tires, it was during a 60 second autocross course with three runs in fairly quick succession, and we checked between each run. This was running Hoosiers.

We then did an autocross school where we got about 60 minutes (combined) seat time on an autocross course where we chalked the tires, and the wear looked excellent. We also burned up the tires completely by the end of that school, but they wore evenly! The school was on 200tw street tires (they went into the school close to the wear bars already - we didn't completely toast them in one day).

[philly15]

thanks that was my next question, on what you were using for tires. Im trying to get a baseline on where i want to be. We have an auto cross on the 18th and a lapping day on the 19th this month to test further. I just wanted to compare where im at now since your car has seen some solid track time. I think right now, my setup is 350 F 500 R spring rate, -3.3 F camber, -2.3 R camber, +6.0 Front caster, and i believe 3/16 toe in in the rear and 1/8 toe out in the front. All i have to go on is street/parking lot driving so it's hard to push it.

[Tamra]

I imagine you will find it quite a bit more oversteer biased than our set up. Good luck and have fun! Report back with how it goes!

[philly15]

I imagine you will find it quite a bit more oversteer biased than our set up. Good luck and have fun! Report back with how it goes!

Will do thanks for the info!